long rang hunting?

S

swbuckmaster

Long Time Member
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A buddy of mine tells me his bro can hit a paper plate out to 1600 yards. He practices it all the time. I say BS! Are there really guys in Utah practicing at this range?
How can you even see a paper plate at a mile? Let alone hit it at a mile?

I went with this nimrod last year on a spike elk hunt and witnessed him shoot 2 elk at 900 yards. He never recovered either one of those elk. He than went out the next day and shot a third and final elk which he tagged.

Lord help us if there are tards in Utah practicing at a mile.




Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
Long range "hunting"??? To me, it's the opposite of hunting. I always thought the point of hunjting was to get in close. It's not how far you can shoot, it's how close you can get. We all want a shot at an unaware animal, but at some point it becomes killing and not hunting. You hit the nail on the head with the comment on archery being a year-round commitment. The last deer I killed with a rifle was only about 200 yards away, but the whole hunt took less than 10 minutes. Kinda ruined me on the long range stuff. Just because you can shoot accurately at a mile, doesn't mean you can hunt.
Mitch
 
With optics, you can SEE a lot of things. In my estimation, and I'm one of the guys who can/does shoot quite a way, 1600 is over the top.

That being said, I've shot a pile of elk with a bow and a deer at 2 feet (really) with a bow. Last fall I shot a deer at 552 yards. Neither skill set is superior. Both methods of hunting require time, effort, and the acquisition of skills.

As Dirty Harry said, "a good man's got to know his limits"......ethical hunting requires knowing and staying within YOUR limits.

The guy with the 900 yards shots was a poacher, he wasn't a hunter!
 
One of my best friends is really into the long range stuff, he builds rifles just for it, but we're talking praire dogs.
He's not afraid to, and has taken big game animals out over 700yds with his bigger stuff, but saves the "games" for the furry critters. His goal right now is killing a dog at a mile.

No doubt people can shoot that far with a hunting rifle, but unless you have the right cartridge and rifle combo, along with the skills to do it sucessfully.........

Check out huntinco's post on long range shooting and watch the youtube clip......pretty impressive 1000yd stuff there going on.









48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
I am impressed with those who can shoot out to 400,500, or 600 yards---if they can do it ethically. Me? I know I can't, so I won't do it. I feel comfortable to about 300-350. Past that, I am not giving the animal respect if I attempt a shot. 1600 sounds pretty ridiculous to me. I just think you should be confident of a kill in whatever range you choose.
 
A good friend of mine came up hunting on a place next to me this year. He shot his deer at 1,146 yards with a sniper rifle chambered in 338 Lapua. Was it ethical? In his case, yes. He trains snipers for our US Special Forces. Even though the shot drop the deer in its tracks, he was upset because it hit about 4 inches high. Would it be ethical for me to take that shot? Nope!
 
This will be a debate that goes on and on. But, lets not just limit this "Long Range Shooting" question to rifle hunting. What of the bow-hunters that shoot deer at over 100 yards (sometimes well over 100 yards). Sounds ridiculious, yes. But those bowhunters that shoot at animals in that range will argue that they have the equiptment (sliding adjustable sights, etc.) necessary and the hours of practice to justify takin these long-range bow shots. Well, good for them!! I sincerely hope that is the case! But it's no different for a guy with a rifle shooting past 1000 yards. If he has the right equiptment and he has practiced at that range and knows his limits then whats the difference? That being said, I have been and always will be a die-hard bowhunter. For numerous reasons, I simply am not comfortable taking a shot at over 80 yards with a bow. But this past year I got into long-range rifle shooting and I have been amazed at what I learned!!! Once you put in the time to learn about ballistics, reloading, high-powered optics and proper shooting conditions you realize exactly how accurate and lethal a good long range shot can be on a big-game animal. Bottom line, educate yourself on your equiptment, whether you're hunting with a bow or a rifle, practice in order to understand your limitations...and then apply what you have learned in the field. Know your limitations and remember them when you're assessing a possible shot. But again, your limitations and my limitations are going to be totally different. Don't be too quick to judge....
 
Shooting More Than One Animal Is Illegal It Is Called Poaching.So In His Case Long Range Shooting Was Not A Wise Decision.Some People It Might Be Ok.But It Is Called Hunting Meaning Get As Close As Possible For A Clean And Humane Kill.Thats The Way I Was Taught And The Way I Teach My Sons.Gordon RAM4G
 
He must have just watched that movie "Shooter", with Mark Wahlberg. I agree with the above posts, unless you are a skilled marksman at that distance and are using the right rifle and equipment, then that's your decision. I personally choose to be less than 400 yards and teach my son less than 200 yards is good for him. Plus, who wants to walk an additional mile to retreive your animal.
 
My buddy is one of those who can shoot a long way with a bow. What he CAN do is impressive. Here is Pocatello, we have the world champion and his father, who was the several-time-defending champion until dethroned by his son. We have a BUNCH of really good shots with a bow. I watch them. With a bow.....I know my limitations; I don't shoot over about 30 yards (prefer 20), but I very seldom miss at that distance. I have different limitations with a rifle....probably has a lot to do with the amount of time I spend practicing.....having a bow and having the very best of rifle equipment.....all those things figure into the equation.
 
I practice for and am comfortable shooting big game out to 600 yards. That being said, the furthest I've ever shot big game is just under 300 yards, that being on an antelope hunt in WY. I don't see 1600 yards on big game being ethical except for a VERY few who have the skills.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-06-08 AT 07:05PM (MST)[p]I won't pick on anyone for their shooting style Bow, rifle, muzzle loader, crossbow or knife. I don't care what you shoot. I am just glad you are doing what you like as long as it's ethical. I wish I could do something about the ethics of people pushing the limits or in this case I mentioned above I wish he had his hunting privileges revoked for a few years.

Sorry guys I had to vent when my buddy told me what his bro was doing and then sent me a web address for where he gets his crap.





Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
I have to agree with most of you guys that say ethical is what you prctice and are capable of. What is more ethical me shooting a deer at 700 yards a shot I practice all year or someone who hunts two days a year dusts of there rifle and shoots at a deer at 250 yards and assumes they will it it cause last time they shot it(a year or two ago it was on site) it was on site. I have invested alot of time and money to be able to shoot at long range and to say it is not hunting or you are not a good hunter for shooting animals at a long distance bothers me. If it were so easy then why isnt everyone doing it. I know alot of guys who have crippled and lost alot of animals under 200 yards.Sure getting closer is better who can argue that, but it is not always possibe. I am only shooting larger animals these days and most of them are pretty tough to get close too, for me most of my hunting is locating the animal. Bottom line is everyone will have a different opinion, but you should not bash someone or say they are not a good hunter because they hunt different than you.
 
Shooting at 1600 yards is idiotic, unless you have something like a .50 caliber, military style. Even the die hard long range hunters rarely shoot over 1000 yards. Ridiculous

RockyMtnOyster
 
So where does it all really end? That's a big question some of you long range proponets need to be asking yourselves. The real issue here is that most of you won't ask yourself the question or don't really care. It's all about the bone or who made the longest shot! I recently sat next to a table of guys at the shooting range that were braggin about how far they had shot an animal and there weren't to many "best of the west one shot drops" in the tales. Nope there were a dozen wounded animals and in some cases they even moved back to take a longer shot because it was cool. There were some very consistant 5" groups out there on their targets at 200 yards! Hardly good enough accuracy to be shooting long range but yet they do!

It's not about hunting any more and we had better wake up and realize it before it's too late! And that my friends is where therein lies the issue. The issue here is that many of you seem to be upset about road closures, limited access, changing laws limiting your hunting. Well it's time to wake up and smell the coffee here boys. Things are changing because many view what others are doing as wrong and don't want that type of activity going on on their land! Many sportsmen and the general public are outraged by this onslought of negative publicity some of the changing trends in hunting are bringing. The internet and cable tv have opened up a whole new era in hunting and I'm sad to say it's not one that will be looked back upon fondly in the end. This stuff isn't new boys even though you think it may be snipers were making shots beyond belief in the civil war! What is new is that the technology is in many hands that don't have the mental capacity to realize they aren't capable of using it or simply don't care. Disagree? Remember that favorite little meadow you had to watch elk feed in that was destroyed by quads, that ranch that was closed because hunters left their garbage and went off road, that road that was destroyed by a 4X4 because they were too good to walk out of camp to hunt when the road was too muddy. Those are all examples of technology in the wrong hands!

Well these pillars of society were just at the rifle range shooting next to me with their adjustable turret scopes on their rifles getting ready for another season of live target practice and right there behind their 4X4 pickup was a trailer of ATV's. Do you think they care about riding across that meadow on that atv when cutting across that meadow is cool too. I doubt it but there's always hope. Yep hunting's future is in good hand here boys we don't have a thing to worry about!
 
I hate the taste of paper anyway, so can he take a Buck or a Bull when the pressures on? I've seen many a great benchshooter that can't deliver the goods out in the field.
KBUCK
 
These last few posts are good ones. What bothers me, just because i practice and tune my guns to be able to take game out to 500 yds, others seem to think that they, with no or little practice or time spent with their firearm, can and should do the same. Heck with 1000yds, 500yds is a long, long ways. I feel that is "my" limit yet many guys who don't put in the time, shoot at big game much farther with little more than a hope and a prayer. Be responcible, put in the time, know what your gun does not only at range, but in the wind. Know your limits, whatever they be, before going and stick to them!

On the other hand; To those that complain of guys wounding deer and brag of never having done so, i have a question for you. Have you ever missed? If so, I have to think that if you had been just a little better shot...you would have wounded instead of missing.

Joey
 
unless your rifle has a yardage turret or a custom reticle your just lobbing bullets. Hold over IMO is irresponsible hunting.
 
Tough topic. Personally, I don't like to shoot past 400 yards and to some that is long distance. My rifle can do it, I can do it, but some cannot and are not comfortable. I only know of one person that can shoot out to 1200 yards and put a three inch group.. that is my husband. But the rifle he uses in custom built and made for long distance shooting at a target like paper, not animals. I feel it is unethical. What happens when you make a bad shot and the critter runs off. You cant get a follow up shot, too far. And tracking the animal.. good luck. I recommend only shooting out to 600 yards on big game only if you are comfortable with yourself and your gun and you have a solid rest. Just me though. But I have witnessed bad things when a person shoots out too far. I will stick to 400 yards and under.

"I shoot at wolves, I don't dance with them." :)
Stands With A Fist
 
gb22, but they are shooting at paper, not animals. I don't think they would shoot that far on a critter, would they? I know of who you speak. The funny part of it is my husband out shot him at the bow range with a long bow vs his souped up bow. They called him "F*n Scorpin King" just because he out shot him with his long bow. Kindof rude. It just depends on the skill of the shooter. Not nessisarly the price of the rifle or bow. I worry now days we get too many "cruches" and if something on our rig fails, we are lost. Lets try to go back to the days of less is more. I practice with an opensite 30-06 in different positions for hunting. Makes me better when I get behind the scope mounted rifle. My own little opinion though. No big deal.

"I shoot at wolves, I don't dance with them." :)
Stands With A Fist
 
This says it all for me:
"unless your rifle has a yardage turret or a custom reticle your just lobbing bullets. Hold over IMO is irresponsible hunting."

This says it all for me. In my opinion, a lot of bench talk is just talk too...fishing stories. A 200 yard shot turns into 1000 yards eventually. The key piece of equipment that most of these "logn range shooters" are missing is a RANGE FINDER.


Anyway, I'd like to add to the bowhunting point. At least on a long range rifle shot, you set up a rest(shoot prone off a pack or something) and take your time setting up the shot. This simply cannot be done with a bow, and is like shooting off hand with a rifle. In my opinion, this is the biggest issue I've come across lately. Sure, this new bow equipment is producing awesome numbers, but launching an arrow 125 yards at a monster bull elk? Then I see them practicing at 20 yards in an indoor range, and they're shooting 6" groups? I've come across this a lot the last few years...it turns my stomach.
 
lefturnabq

The only thing I can say to 125 yard shots with a bow is. It is a lot harder to get to an animal at 125 yards than it is to get to an animal at 600- 1600 yards. There are also only 10,000 bowhunters compared to 90,000 rifle hunters.

So in my simple mind I got to think the odds of a utard making a lack of judgment in the field is less on the archery hunt. Which would also equates to less animals getting wounded.

However I still can't stand either hunter who chooses to take these style of shots.






Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
I shoot 125 yard bow shots and 1,600 rifle shots at whatever damn animal I want to.

Signed,

dekkers
 
Personally I believe the challenge of finding a trophy animal and being able to get within 400 yards is not only the fun but the excitement of hunting. I know a sniper that has 2 confirmed kills at a mile, when he hunts he never shoots over 400 yards and has the ability and the equipment to do so. In his words "save the long range for the creatures that you aren't concerned if you wound rather than kill". I'm not saying that by doing so he would be wrong, but I definitely don't think it's necessary to condemn those that do unless you can prove that the hunter was negligent in doing so i.e. shooting at an animal that is a 1000 yards away with pa's 30-30 with open sites.

If we start debating/creating rules that limits how people can hunt when we don't agree, we open up the door for those that don't agree with hunting in general to begin taking our rights away A.KA slippery slope. How many people out there have seen or taken an animal with an arrow stuck in it? Are you prepared to vilify the whole archery community because of it? I don't think so...Until I can see evidence that game has been wounded and or wasted due to people shooting at long range I will continue to say to each his own. All I can hope for is that the individual takes into the field good morals and judgement when taking game.
 
Let's just pray... there is not to many like you around, or out hunting !!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-08-08 AT 06:04AM (MST)[p]MuleyNV, the evidence lies in the fact people are posting video's and showing this type of shooting on TV hunting shows and on the internet. Prior to the great communication highway these shots were still being made but there wasn't too much proof and it was easily dismissed. How many guys did you see jumping skateboards on hand rails and riding MX bikes down them prior to shows like jackass and you tube? That started quite a trend there and many young individuals jumped on the bandwagon and our hospitals and emergency rooms and Dr.s out there thank them for the increased business! It's cool to be cool and we all want to fit in! The statisics clearly show that these type of injuries have increased substantially even though they are risky! If you have a gun or bow and see people taking these shots at the longer ranges you're promoting that and it doesn't take too long for that little light to go off and then people begin to think if he can I can! Hey there's nobody out here so who will know? Lets just lob a few and we might get lucky if not I still haven't filled my tag. What's stopping me? Let me see he's more successful BECAUSE he's taking longer shots and that might just help me too!

Yep there we are right on the cusp of a wounding epidemic brought to you entirely by your fellow sportsman looking for fame and in many cases trying to make a few bucks! The facts are that rifle hunters wound many many more game animals than archers because of the numbers involved and now thanks to the miracle of video both weapons types will be wounding more! There are fewer bucks than does and bulls than cows so just what kind of an impact will it have on the numbers? This is a limited resource and removing opportunity with poor shot selection at any distance will impact everyones opportunity to hunt at some point. The impact wolves make could look like childs play in comparision because they kill both sexes but millions upon millions of hunters changing their mindsets to this type of behavior could have a profound effect on the resource. But then it's their hunt and if they wound 3 or 4 deer a year and an elk or two who cares! Trust me on this, if these guys made their living off those animals, or had to pay for wounding them, they wouldn't be taking hardly any of those shots because their wallets would feel it!

The fact you're seeing numerous threads about it on many sights is an indicator that the trend is increasing and will continue too until somebody puts the brakes on in some manner. Just because you and many others don't do it, doesn't mean it's not happening. The sales of scopes like these and faster shooting bows with 7-10 pins and muzzle loaders shots at 300 yards are proof to the contrary. There will be an impact here just as surely as that bullet or arrow wounding an animal, we really don't have any idea to what extent the damage will be today or in the future. Impact now there a word that could take on a whole new meaning in huntings future just because a few million errant shots didn't hit their mark.
 
Boskee,

Well said and I agree with you in principle. I'm just not ready to codemn/regulate any group of hunters for a practice that is questionable due to the "jackasses" that do it unethically by not having the skill. For every 10 ethical rifle hunters there is one that shoots at animals from his or her truck, quad, highway or liquored up. Some even head to the field with a brand new rifle that was never properly sighted in. I prefer to codemn individuals when they break the laws, or enforce the laws on the books, rather than create more laws that are arguably ambiguous and easily used as a spring board to trample on other hunters' rights. Although I never shoot over 400 yards, nor could I if I wanted to, I know there people that can and do it successfully while respecting the animals. One such person is a disabled vet that is parapalegic. He has honed his skills to be able to kill an animal at 1000 yards and is very ethical when doing so. I would rather not attack a group of hunters because of the questionable practices of individuals.
 
NVMuley guys like you aren't part of the problem but are part of the solution. If every hunter would go into the field and take shots they know they can make then we wouldn't be heading in this direction. I'm not an advocate for more regulation either but we need to pull in the reins a bit. If we don't the regulation will be coming whether we like it or not and it's fairly easy to do. These types of issues are already being discussed by many states commissions today.

Knowledgeable hunters like you and others taking the time to advocate good shot selection is where it needs to start. I know full well what a rifle can do at ranges over 500 yards in the right hands with a practiced seasoned shooter with the right equipment. Trouble is a lot of individuals put on a new sight or scope and think they're at that level like the guys I mentioned above when clearly they're not. What seems like a recipe for success suddenly becomes a bigger recipe for failure. It's not my intent to attack anybody but to make them realize their limitations and shoot within them.

Kind of funny isn't it we hunt for decades without any of these types of laws being discussed when hunting participation was at much higher levels. Now we seem to have issues like these surfacing every day and we have states imposing restrictions on weapons out west. You don't make laws unless there is a reason too and it seems we as hunters are headed in that direction unless we correct our course. We have the ability to change that course ourselves but based on society today, I doubt that will happen. We all want to do it our way and that's not necessarily the best way to conserve the resource. When that happens laws and rule changes are inevitable.
 
1 in 10?

I'd venture to say it's more like 5 out of 10. I know a lot of people that hunt, but I only know a few that really take it seriously...scouting, practicing, conditioning.

Again, as for bowhunting, the percentages of bad shots taken I think are as great or greater than on rifle hunts. Yes, there are far fewer bowhunters so maybe the impact is not as great, but don't kid yourself. Bowhunting has grown enormously in the last 20 years. Just look at how the market has expanded and how much harder bow hunts have become to draw.

I do believe bowhunting is safer from my own perspective. I think I'm less likely to be shot, and I don't see the road hunting (asside from 4-wheelers) or the drinking I do on rifle hunts.
 
I don't care how proficient you are with your weapon of choice. None of you can make that animal hold still while your projectile is in the air. None of you can control the timing of a gust of wind. If it is in the air more than 1/2 second the animal can very possibly move enough to change a perfect shot to something bad. Define ethical by ALL the variables and not just the ones in your control.
 
Bowhuntswitharifle,

To the best of my knowledge the Wilde's don't (at least any more) hunt at all. As for the rest of the REALLY good archery shots who live in this area, some of them hunt and are quite good at it. My best buddy shoots a LOT farther with a bow (so do many others) than I. He's a very good shot and it works for him (and those critters he kills).

I archery hunt (I'd hunt with a spear, if there were a season.). But I REALLY like guns. I've been reloading since the mid-60s, have built a rifle and I practice all the time. (How's the movie line go?.....this one shoots a might further.) But, as I said, I can get a little single-minded about shooting.

Several years ago, at the rifle range in Reno, a guy insisted I shoot his rifles (shucks). He was quite surprised that, with open sights and a bit of a crosswind, I could hit the 300 yard gong with his gun on a regular basis. You're right, it's the practice that is most important, but, if we'd given Quigley a bullet-drop-compensating scope and a laser range finder, he could have taken care of Marsten much more easily.
 
RE: long range hunting?

This is an intriguing discussion. I've been following the replies, and trying to formulate my own thoughts on the matter. The "long range hunting" sort of sizes it up for me. I have little doubt that we have amongst us, those that are capable of taking the current technology and using it to deliver a lethal rifle shot on an animal at great distances. This strikes me more as being "long range shooting" than it is "long range hunting". IMO, dropping a lethal dose of lead on an unsuspecting animal at such long range really doesn't feel like it's very fair to the critter. I've always felt that closing the distance, and taking an animal when they have a chance to detect me was what it's all about. The closer you get, the higher the chances you'll be busted, and the degree of sport involved climbs accordingly.

I'm getting a little long in the tooth, and don't think I could take the available technology and utilize it like the long range guys can do. If I could, I don't think I would. While I admire the skills of these shooters, I have a philosophical conflict about the ethics of killing at such distances.

One thing most hunters have in common is a desire to be recognized for our successes. We all like to show off what we harvest, brag a bit, receive some kudos from fellow hunters, etc. MM is a prime example of this, and I think most objective non-hunters would find it's content to be very much acceptable. Anti's will climb all over examples of harvesting animals at ultra long distances, and I fear it'd be an easy "sell" to non-hunters that currently support hunting.

I have tried to envision how the non-hunting public would view us harvesting critters from such long distances. I don't think it'd go over very well at all if the perception of a sporting chance is compromised. As we try to maintain and enhance our sport, and our our image, I think we need as many non-hunting allies as possible. Most of these folks don't care one way or the other, and they tend to lean whichever direction feels proper to them.

In short; if you must shoot from a half mile or more, do it with conscience, much practice, and be satisfied with your skills without bragging too much about it. While I don't agree with this practice personally, I'm pretty sure there are people and equipment that can efficiently use this tactic.

Hogliquor
 
All ive got to say is what in the @#$! happened to hunting an animal? to getting as close to the quarry as possible and putting a responsible ethical killing shot on it and if you cant then you dont shoot! personally ive killed an elk at 400 yards and ill never do it again not that im not capable but rather than try and increase my shooting skills i enhanced my hunting skills and now i kill them at ten yards or so.

Bury me in the hills so i can fertilize the grass and grow bigger animals for the rest of ya
 
I am a hunter, I hunt archery and rifle and like said before would hunt with a spear if there was a season. I am set up for long range shooting and have taken animals at some far distances. I dont want to get into numbers, but I have my limits and practice every distance before ever taking an animal at that distance. No doubt people will abuse this that shouldnt be attempting these shots. I dont beleive it is not sporting it is a skill that must be refined. If getting in close to your prey is hunting for you then great, I spend countless hours training and searching for big bucks and when I find one I want I take him close or far. I will try and get closer, but if I cant and have a shot within my ability I take it. what are we going to do set limits on how far you can shoot, I would like to know how you would enforce that. Some think shooting an animal over say 400 yards is unethical, well I am sure when centerfire rifles came around some thought that was unethical along with compound bows. Lets face it times change, but I dont think you can call someone unethical or not a hunter, because they dont hunt the same as you. Everyone has different views on what makes a hunt from size of animal to weapon used and at what distance but lets not bash each other because we dont agree or understand someone elses way of hunting. I think we all agree that those wounding several animals are a problem and I agree I wish we could end this, but I dont see how. Unfortunately not everyone knows there limits and thats probably are biggest problem.
 
Hey, buckmaster,

That line about the spear season was mine!! Very well said.

To those who think that because someone can shoot means they can't "hunt" (use the word stalk).....not true. I truly did shoot a deer when the arrowhead hit the animal BEFORE the nock left the string. I've been within 2 feet of 6x6 elk; I even hooked one with a fishing lure once.

I can do that and will again. (At some point in the future, I'm going to touch a deer...before he knows I'm there (goal)). I enjoy it.

I also use binoculars and spotting scopes. If I've been hunting for a few days and find a deer on the other side of the canyon, that strikes my fancy...I'm going to shoot him. If I jump one on my side, I'll take him running. If he's standing a long way off, I'll get to a solid rest, but I see no reason to shake hands and start a relationship; it'll be rather one sided. Make no mistake, they can see movement, hear brush rustle and have some sort of 6th sense. Those things work at GREAT distances....shooting from the other side of the canyon is NOT cheating....as long as you are within your limitations.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-08-08 AT 08:06PM (MST)[p]I wonder just how many of you long range bashers actually have the right equipment, knowledge & have taken the time to become a high percentage longe-range shot? I bet the answer is none or your comments would have been much different. As with any hunting one must know his limits and stick with them at any range. Best of luck to all of you this season no matter what range your hunting at. I would like to know what equipment your friend uses to take a high percentage shot at 1600?. Here are some photos from today at 1000 yards using factory ammo. This was Marks first time shooting such distance. Is he ready to take a high percentage shot at game from this distance? heck no! but with a lottttttttttt of practice he just might be

MARK1.JPG

MARK2.JPG



Justin Richins
R&K Hunting Company Inc.
www.thehuntingcompany.com
 
I don't know what gun he uses but I would guess he use the biggest extension of his manhood he can find "Lepua or something".

For calculating his drop and windage
He uses a humidity tester, gravity tester, altitude tester, wind checker, heat wave detector, and last but not least he has to take into account the curvature of the earth. He than inputs all of this data in his Texas Instrument and pulls a number out of his arse and then fires every bullet he has in the direction of his animal he plans on wounding and hopes all his practice pays off. He knows that it doesn't matter if he hits the Utah non typical 1x2 in the guts, legs, feet, chest, or neck, that he is shooting a large enough projectile it should cripple it in its track. The heck with the meat that is just less he has to carry out.

Sorry for the sarcasm
I guarantee he can't shoot a group as big as the group your friend has at a 1000 yards but he has all the necessary equipment to try.

Here is a question for guys shooting past 1000. I know to shoot as far as 400-800 yards you are probably practicing on a bench with something to hold your hunting gun like sandbags or something. I would also guess that at distances over a 1000 you would have to have a heavy gun, something more like an Olympic target rifle. What are you using at a 1000 yards pluss if you are going to shoot at an animal? My guess would be there is nothing you can use that will slow the movement on a regular deer rifle.

Post pictures of your long range setups and educate a fellow short range hunter.




Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
I usually stay out of these, but I am wearing thin. I've spent a lot of time chasing big game and I have never seen one that's blaze orange and I've never seen one shot from a bench rest. Sometimes, you do have lots of time, but other times, you have to be able to shoot fairly quickly. I'm just confused about what would motivate people to risk the life of a precious big game animal by shooting at such long distances.

I think I have written this before, but we take quite a few hunters every year. A fairly high percentage of those guys say they can shoot to 500 yards and beyond. Then they show up, and I have them shoot from a bench rest. Most can't hold a 2.5" group at 100 yards from sand bags. In the field, they have to have a real good rest (usually prone over apck) at a standing deer to hit it at 250 yards.

And I habve written before that the wind is the wild card in all of this. Unless yuo are super human, you just can not dope wind across canyons or topography at 1000+ yards. Our Wyoming winds are often 30-40 mph and in my estimation, it is just not ethical to shoot long distances in our normal conditions.

For coyotes or prairie dogs it is fine to shoot long dicatnces, but for deer, elk and antelope, they deserve better from us.
 
The truth is, most guys shouldn't take shots out past 200 yds.

I have a set up very similar to Justins and I can assure you that shots in excess of 500 yds are very ethical with the right person behind the right equipment with the right conditions.

Ethics is knowing you and your equipments limitations and than having the "ethics" to stay within those limitations.

To think any one person is the official spokesman for shooting ethics is flat out ridiculous.

Mike
 
CF, I agree, kindof.. let me add this, I would say about 98% of hunters would say that shooting past 400 yards is too far on big game. After all, it is not a paper target we are shooting at. Too many variables. Saying that, my rifle is zeroed in at 200 yards. I have more of a sniper set up than a hunting set up though. Turret on top and MOA on the side. Shimidt and Bender. Made for that kind of hunting. Your right, no one is the official spokesperson for ethical hunting. But I think I speak for alot of hunters when I say, past 400 yards, don't shoot. Too many variables out of the shooters control. Bad shots can be made at 100 yards, times that by 4. Yikes! Some pride themselves on shooting paper at 500-700 yards, but doing that in the field... they can't do it. You are right, most should not shoot past 200 yards. They wipe off the dust from their rifle, take a shot or two the day before the season, and bang!, a miss, bang!, another miss. These people should not shoot past 100 yards if you ask me or not at all. Just my opinion though. Just like a*holes, everyone has one. ;-)

"I shoot at wolves, I don't dance with them." :)
Stands With A Fist
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-09-08 AT 03:09PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-09-08 AT 02:34?PM (MST)

I have to add this here I was watcing a Chistensen arms show where the guys shot a deer at like 500 yards and hit the deer in the back and it was still struggling to get to its feet and the guys were high fiving each other instead of putting that buck down with another shot last time I will watch that show. To my way of thinking I want to make the most humane shot possible. I just wished more hunters would consider that the goal not the kill.

At what ever distance and the only thing I can say stuff happens at any range but the longer the range more variables come into play. The guys who can make those shots know that, but the average hunter who goes out and shoots once or twice a year to check is zero is the guy that bothers me. Then you have the TV shows promoting their long range shooting and the avg Joe blow that shoots a 300 magnum thinks hey its possible to make that shot. When the animal doesn't fall down they don't follow up the animal to see if they hit them.

And not only rifle hunters are at fault bows were meant to be short range hunting I hear about the 70 yard elk shots. Most of those guys don't realize that an elk can take one step at that distance of about 1 yard and it goes from lungs to the hips.

As long as you think the shot though and know that its ethical for you good luck.






If there is any proof of a man in a hunt it is not whether he killed a deer or elk but how he hunted it.
 
Well I don't care if you are a sniper and you can hit a paper plate every time at 1000 yards its not hunting. I have friends that are into long range shooting and have witness first hand how effective and accurate they can be with practice, but long range shooting has no place in hunting. I've personally watched them shot at deer at around 600 yards and the deer had no clue what was going on even after 18 missed shots yes I said 18 missed shots and that was only at 600 yards not 1000 let a lone 1600. It was pretty sad to watch and no telling how many times this happens every year around the country. I have also seen this happen at 300 yards but the difference was the deer knew what was going on while the deer at 600 yards continued to feed after getting shot at 5 or 6 times.

How can someone say its ethical when the animal has no chance of defense. At that 1600 yards even 1000 you could be up wind and making quite a bit of noise and the animal will have no idea your there believe me I've seen it. I'm sorry that's not hunting its just killing. I know there's plenty of guys out there that can make a 1000 yard shot and thats awesome but keep it at the range. Every time I've been on a hunt with my long range shooting friends of mine they could have easily have cut the distance before shooting but they didn't because they wanted to see how far they could shoot. Sometimes they practice first on a rock thats the same distance as the animal and after a few practice shots they set site on the animal who even after 2 or 3 shots have rang out still has no idea that we're there.

Long range archery doesn't bother me as bad because at least at 100-150 yards the animals can still detect you. No practice shots here if you miss more than likely the animal isn't going to stand around and let you shot at it until you finally hit him.

I feel if you can close the distance than do it and leave the long range stuff at the range where it belongs.
 
I stand by what I've said about limitations being individual and using your skills not being cheating or unethical. Deer do see/hear/smell us from GREAT distances.

For the record, I've never shot at a big-game animal at anything approaching 1,000 yards let alone 1,600. I don't see (wind being the determinant) why 300, 400 or even 500 is so undoable.....if prepared.
 
hunterX, what does it matter if the animal can't hear you, see you, or smell you. Thats not the issue here. The issue is, is it ethical to shoot long ranges.If an animal can be harvested with a clean kill at long distances than I feel it's ethical.You'll make a lot cleaner kill on an unsuspecting animal than you will one that is ready to bolt, or worse, is hauling a$$.

So according to your theory it's unethical to shoot at an unsuspecting animal even if your only 100 yds away. You have to wait till the animal goes on full alert before you shoot.Thats retarded!

You support guys flinging arrows at alert animals at 150 yds, yet skilled riflemen with long range equipment are unethical. Just cuz you can't kill animals at excessive yardages doesn't mean it's unethical.

Yes, there are guys like your friends who will hold 10 feet over a deers back at a 1000 yds and fling bulltes until they either wound an animal or run out of ammo.Eighteen shots at one animal! Heck, I don't support that kind of behavior either. These folks should not be lumped into the same group as the guys who have the right equipment and the proper skill to make long shots.

The bottom line is hunting requires skill of some kind. For one it might be stalking close, for others it might be tracking, or glassing, and for someone else it may be shooting long range. Whatever it is your good at,the hunt should end with a clean kill or an unfilled tag.

Mike
 
>hunterX, what does it matter if
>the animal can't hear you,
>see you, or smell you.
>Thats not the issue here.
>The issue is, is it
>ethical to shoot long ranges.If
>an animal can be harvested
>with a clean kill at
>long distances than I feel
>it's ethical.You'll make a lot
>cleaner kill on an unsuspecting
>animal than you will one
>that is ready to bolt,
>or worse, is hauling a$$.
>
>
>So according to your theory it's
>unethical to shoot at an
>unsuspecting animal even if your
>only 100 yds away. You
>have to wait till the
>animal goes on full alert
>before you shoot.Thats retarded!
>
>You support guys flinging arrows at
>alert animals at 150 yds,
>yet skilled riflemen with long
>range equipment are unethical. Just
>cuz you can't kill animals
>at excessive yardages doesn't mean
>it's unethical.
>
>Yes, there are guys like your
>friends who will hold 10
>feet over a deers back
>at a 1000 yds and
>fling bulltes until they either
>wound an animal or run
>out of ammo.Eighteen shots at
>one animal! Heck, I don't
>support that kind of behavior
>either. These folks should not
>be lumped into the same
>group as the guys who
>have the right equipment and
>the proper skill to make
>long shots.
>
>The bottom line is hunting requires
>skill of some kind. For
>one it might be stalking
>close, for others it might
>be tracking, or glassing, and
>for someone else it may
>be shooting long range. Whatever
>it is your good at,the
>hunt should end with a
>clean kill or an unfilled
>tag.
>
>Mike

You totally took what I wrote out of context. I never once said an animal needs to be alert to shoot it. All I said was that at distances like 1000 yards the animal doesn't have a very sporting chance to detect the shooter.

Now as far as my friends they are very professional when it comes to shooting long range as good as it gets. They all have long range rifles with turrets, ballistic charts, windage charts you name it they got it and know how to use it no holding 10 feet over the back with these guys. Even with all that equipment and know how they still missed 18 times. At that distance by the time the bullet reaches the animal the wind can change direction a couple times. This is why my friends missed 18 times because the wind just wasn't consistent. By the time they figured out what the wind was doing and they'd finally take a shot the wind would change on them. They weren't missing by much but they were still missing.

I never thought there was anything wrong about shooting animals a long range.
I use to think it would be just awesome to watch a guy hammer down on a big ol buck at 1000 yards. But after seeing it done in person it leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. No mater what the distances there are going to be misses placed shots mistakes happen. I feel my long range buddies can shot better at 600 yards than your average hunter at 300 yards. They are very proficient at killing animals at long range except for that one time.

In my opinion shooting further than 500 yards is just to far. Anything further is just not fair to the animals. It has nothing to do with guys being able to make a clean kill at distances over 500 yards because there are plenty of guys out there that can do it with no problem. Its all about giving the animals a fair chance thats it and I feel anything past 500 yard isn't fair. Just my opinion.
 
Something to ponder...

The Boone and Crockett Club Bylaws say this in regards to defining Fair Chase:

"The ethical, sportsmanlike and lawful pursuit and taking of any free ranging wild game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the game animals".

It feels to me like much of this debate about ethics has overlooked the aspect of sportsmanship and the above mentioned improper or unfair advantage over the game animal.

To me it's like shooting a gobbler out of a roost tree, or a mallard sitting on the pond surface, etc. Lawful? I think so... Ethical? Maybe, but generally frowned upon by the hunting community. Sportsmanlike? I don't think so.

Sometimes it all comes down to just not doing something, even though it's legal, ethical and within your skill set. It is a personal decision though.

As more large heads taken at ultra long range are submitted for record book consideration, I would expect the interpretation of Fair Chase to crop up. The definition of Fair Chase will be challenged, and it will either be changed or heads will be disqualified. I guess that might be a definitive answer to what we've been discussing here...

Hogliquor.
 
I shoot 125 yard bow shots and 1,600 yard rifle shots at whatever damn animal I want to.

Signed,

dekkers

Hollybejesussssss I know someone gets it. Right?
 
So you dont think it is fair to shoot long range cause the animal has less defense and chance of detection. Then I am to assume you take your game with your bare hands and not some high powered rifle or compound bow. Otherwise you would have an unfair advantage. I think everyone writing in has ethics, but lets not bash someones way of hunting, cause they do it different than you. granted there are conditions when long range is not ethical, but there are conditions when a well trained shooter is justified in taking a long range shot.
 
I went to dinner tonight with some friends many of which have hunted all their lives. One gentlemen in particular has hunted all over the world and had a pretty distinguished career. This guy has a trophy room that most of us would kill to have with a bull elephant mount over the fireplace in his game room. Naturally we talked about hunting and I told them that long range shooting was the subject of a thread on a website. These guys range in age from 40 years old to 58 and are all well seasoned hunters. Some hunt with a bow but they prefer to hunt with a gun.
I approached them with how they felt about long range hunting and here is what they said and for the record I don't share these same thoughts. But it's an eye opener!

The most seasoned hunter in the group thought that long range hunting was the poorest excuse that he as an individual had seen in years. He felt that a hillbilly road hunting at least gives the animal more of a chance than those that pretended to be hunters shooting at distances where the animals don't even know they exist or are a threat. Don't laugh even a hillbillys truck makes noise and puts the animal on alert and gives him a chance to escape. The fact these so called hunters don't have the ability or desire to match their skills with their prey speaks volumes about how truly lazy they are. It's a disgrace to hunting in that they would even want to place a mount on their wall because it is against all the rules of fair chase. What chance are they giving the animal?

The second guy didn't like it one bit and thought that they might as well play a damn video game because that's just about how much sport there is in it. He could see making some shots out to around 400 yards on sheep and other animals when necessary. He also didn't appreciate the fact that the individuals masking themselves as hunters had lost the true meaning of hunting and were kidding themselves that they actually had hunted their prey. The challenge of being in the field and going after an animal in his surrounding is lost on them in that they want to take the easy way out. Coming home unsucessful is part of the hunt and it makes you understand that when you make a mistake the animal wins. It makes you work that much harder the next time.

The last guy had a little different take on it in that while he could understand that skill was required to make the shot he felt the individual was cheating himself out of the feeling of accomplishment after expending it all in the field and taking the easy way out. That's the trouble with the younger generation today they want everything and don't want to have to expend the effort to get it. Not all of them are that way and for that we should be thankful.

These types (shooters) represent all that is wrong with hunting today. I can tell you that this generation with their in your face attitude is largly one of the reasons I stopped contributing my money for wildlife. They don't respect the animals,the land, or other hunters and I'll be damned if I'm going to make it easier for people with that type of an attitude. They cross that line a little more each time in my opinion. Tell them that they shouldn't be taking shots like those and watch them get their dander up. Why, because there's an element of shame in it and they know they aren't giving the animal a fair shake! The nonhunting public will not like the fact that they are just shooting not hunting kind of like the old buffalo hunt we used to have here where they shot them in a corral. Not much sport to it at all and it went by the wayside as a result just like hunting could be if you guys don't watch out and clean up your act.
 
TARGET PRACITCE- Seeing how far away you can hit something.

HUNTING- Seeing how close you can get and making a clean kill.
 
Hogliquor - I love the argument about fair chase, it will be one I use when debating with fellow long range hunters over beer, I hope you don't mind if a plagiarize. The comparison to shooting and unsuspecting duck on a pond couldn't bring it home more for me personally. I will probably use ground shooting chukar since that's more of what we do, but same principal. I chased those little b--stards up the hills and been close to ground sloosing them but always stopped. That usually lets them get away but that's the fun/torture about chukar hunting. "The first time you go chukar hunting is for fun...Every other time after that is for revenge".

Boskee - You gotta respect the old school dudes, say it how it is and matter of fact. Those that have legs and desire should get out there and work for it. I assume that at least 98% of the people that participate on this site would agree with that.
 
hunterx, you seem like a nice guy and I respect your opinion. However, the diference between me and your friends is I would not take a long shot in windy conditionds. Any skilled longrange hunter know's that anything over a 10mph wind is not a good condition.

>The ethical, sportsmanlike and lawful pursuit and taking of >any free ranging wild game animal in a manner that does not >give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the game >animals".

I guess B&C said it so it must be gospel. If we went by their philosophy, we better go back to open sights and long bows and do away with all range finders, and high end optics.What a load of crap.

Last time I checked, the hardest part about hunting is finding the critter you want to harvest.Once you find that critter how you go about killing it is your business so long as it results in a quick humane kill.


enough said

Mike
 
This has seriously gone on way too long! Who made all you self righteous hippocrites the "ethics police"?

"Ethics"....is what your own standards are! You have NO right the slap your brand of ETHICS onto someone, anyone else.

Your ethics are your choice .....not a mandatory standard for everyone. Everything else is your "opinion" of someone elses' ethics.

You don't want to shoot at elk at 1000 yards.....don't do it! If Joe Lazzeroni wants to do it, so what? Let him. Why should you care?

EXAMPLE:
If I and hundreds of other rifle guys, were in charge of "ethics", there would never be another big game animal archery hunt in America. I personnaly despise you Robin Hood wannabes' who stick arrows into big game, can't find it and keep sticking things till you bring one down. Then we find these wounded animals all over during rifle season. If bowhunting was "all that and a sack of chips", we would all be speaking Huron.............I DO NOT THINK ARCHERY HUNTING IS ETHICAL.

....does that make me right? NO, not by any stretch....that is simply an opinion. If you know you stuck an animal, wounded it and could not find it, is it ok for you to kill another? I think not....MY code of ethics says it is over....most archery guys don't see it that way. And I don't need the archery guys giving me crap about how many more rifle hunters there are, so consequently, more wounded game with a rifle,,,,,bla, bla, bla...see...My Opinion!

But I don't care....you have to do what you think is right and you do not have the right to judge someone elses standards.

At 1000 yards, my 300 winmag still has about 5 times the knockdown power of an arrow at 60 yards....so what?

Bottom line......STFU and get your self righteous nose out of everyone elses' business!
 
The shame of it all is that these fools shoot at 1000 yds and are too damn lazy to walk 1000 yds to check for blood afterwords. Heaven help this sport with morons like Best of the West promoting this B.S.
 
Nickman,
Knockdown power is not the problem I have with long range shooting.
Can you guarantee proper shot placement at 1000 yards? Don't be a moron and assume that there are any less wounded animals from rifle hunters than archers. If you can't get closer than a 1000 yards to an animal do you really consider yourself a hunter? I don't care if you think we are self righteous. Hunters should have ethics, if you choose not to that is your choice,but it makes you wonder why so many people are against hunting. Just maybe it could be because of your type of attitude.
 
Obsessed......You missed the entire point of the post and I never said I shoot at big game at 1000 yards.

My point was....you have no right to put your own version of ethics on anyone else. Rifle hunters, bowhunters, crossbow hunters.....whoever.

Ethics are your personal responsibility.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-11-08 AT 09:14AM (MST)[p]Nickman I see your point. But this post was talking about shooting 1600 yards, then 1000, then 600 and so on. Where do we draw the line? Taking shots at over 1/2 a mile when we all know that 3/4 mile is next then 1 mile and more. This is a slippery slope at best and if hunters can't be the conscience for other hunters then we have a problem. Society has long dictated how we as individuals act and to what standards we conform. Now you're sitting there saying this is wrong. Most of the folks on this thread stated that you should shoot within your capability and some didn't agree and thought there were some limits and things were relatively civil until you jumped on here and told everyone to go "F" themselves for trying to make their point. So now you come off exactly as how that gentleman I had dinner with described the face of these young shooters.

We face some pretty heavy opposition to us taking shots at any yardage and that old gentlemen has given upwards of $500,000.00 to support hunting and for some reason he stopped and many others have stopped too because they don't like what they see and hear these days. Most of them are abhorred at the types of shots being taken in the field today. Can we as hunters afford this when one of the richest men in the world is clearly in the other camp funneling millions to put an end to hunting. This guy has principles and even though he could buy 100 auction tags he doesn't because he feels it's not fair to be able to hunt when other hunters can't. Fair chase isn't just some words to him is a standard he and millions of others believe in and our hunting today is there largely as a result of this type of conservative thinking. Pulling all the stops out and letting them fly at any distance isn't too far out of the realm of possibilty with quite a few of our participants with all weapons types. So how do we let them know that's not acceptable? Silence is taken as approval for what they do.

Don't tell us it's not any of our business because this type of behavior is compromising all of our rights to hunt even yours.
 
What kind of kinetic energy do you think that bullet has at 1600 yards? Ill bet a dollar its not enough to kill anything other than a paper plate.
 
>What kind of kinetic energy do
>you think that bullet has
>at 1600 yards? Ill
>bet a dollar its not
>enough to kill anything other
>than a paper plate.


A 300 Win Mag shooting 180grn bullets will be around 413ft/lbs at 1600 yards.

A bow shooting a 450grn arrow is around 53.24 ft/lbs of energy at release.


-DallanC
 
I know this isn't the debate, but are totally under-estimating how lethal modern archery equipment is.

There was an old video used in the Hunter's Education course where a Game Warden took a bucket filled with sand and shot it with a 30-30, then dug the bullet out of the bucket from the sand.

She then shot a similar bucket of sand, at the same distance, with a bow. The arrow passed through the bucket.

The shock transmitted to the animal is very different, but an arrow is still a very deadly weapon.


On topic: Ethics are something that is passed down and taught, a moral code. Without some sort of standard, people take advantage. Someone with no ethics, is the sme sort of ##### that would take another man's deer at gun point. Where do your "freedoms" end and wher do they begin?

Hunting is a privelage for us, not a right.
 
Dallan
How much KE is considered enough to ethically kill a deer, elk, ect? Also, a broadhead kills by cutting and a bullet kills by shock, so I dont think that that is a fair comparison. If it was everybody would be killing deer at 1000 yards.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-11-08 AT 10:54AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-11-08 AT 10:48?AM (MST)

Bbgellerman, I think there is sufficient energy as proved by snipers in WWI WWII and other conflicts. A bullet fired from a centerfire rifle today has killed many an individual at over a mile. The biggest constraint on a rifle today is the inability to compensate for the adjustment necessary in the bullets flight path in the sighting device. (most scopes don't have enough adjustment on the vertical plane) A bullet kills by hemmoraging the same method used by an arrow. The shock created is essentially a by product that aids in the process. A bullet hitting soft tissue (the lungs) passes thru with little resistance and the animal dies from blood loss like an arrow. Military bullets are full jacketed to minimize the wound channel but still very lethal in comparision. The kill tables established by writers is a resource to assist us in choosing a caliber and bullet that is better suited to do the job in a quick and humane manner. An arrow kills by momentum and in most instances weighs far less than a bullet but is every bit as effective at much slower velocities.
 
I think you are missing my point. I realize that snipers like Carlos Hathcock have shot men from 2000 yards. I dont know everything about long range shooting, but I do know a fair amount. I was a Scout Sniper in the Marine Corps from 99-01. We shot effectively out to 1000 yard with the M-40 (.308), and to about 2000 yard with the Barrett .50 cal. At that time the M-40 was holding 1" moa. So that would give me a 16" group at 1600 yards, which isnt good enough to call that shot ethical. I dont know what configuration they are using now, but I think it holds tighter. I know Tac Ops makes rifles now that hold 1/4" moa. With that being said, we are talking about hunting ethics. Just because some famous sniper made a shot out to 1000+ yards or more doesnt convince me that its acceptable to be taking 1600 yard shots at game. The chance of wounding the animal without recovering goes up every yard you increase. I am just asking for someone who knows more about balistics than me to quantify what KE it takes to "ethically" kill an animal.
 
You can't just go by KE. A Randy Johnson fast ball has more KE than a bullet at 1000 yards but it won't kill a deer because it won't penetrate. A round nose bullet requires more KE than a ballistic tip bullet, etc. There is also the issue of how much energy is retained. (the bucket of sand demonstration.) A cutting point broadhead requires less KE than other types so you can't just put a number on it. You could give a range for a bullet type maybe. I'm sorry I don't know what that would be. Are you going to hit bone or not? I shot my moose with a .243. Was that ethical? Would anyone here recommend it? Just because it's possible and works out sometimes doesn't mean it should be attempted. In MY opinion there is never a situation on an unwounded animal that justifies a 1000 yard shot. If you can't get closer how do you expect to recover it? Too many people would rather brag about the shot than work at getting a better one. I won't let any of my hunters do it.
 
The tables that exist have higher values than those necessary to cause the projectile to penetrate into the internal organs as I eluded. I doubt you'll find a published table because of the sensative nature of the material but it's probably out there on the internet. I know the gov't has done some testing in the past. Some of your friends that were in the SEALS probably carried some sniper rifles for long range engagement in either .50 or .30 cal that we made for them at McMillans. Our m-86 .30 cal shot .250 moa or less or it never left the shop. You and I are on the same page on this issue and the fact that any tom, ##### or harry can go buy a scope and put it on their gun and not be able to shoot it well enough to take those shots is precisely why this is a growing issue. The issue here isn't with the guys that practice and can it's with the guys that think they can and can't. When the average guys shoots his high power rifle less than 20 shots a year it has to be a concern even if some on here don't want to believe it.
 
sw
I have done 800 yarder on a deer but i don't know if I can belive 1600. Even with my 7mm 800 was a little too far. but I'll be damned if I'm getting skunked
 
P.S........Are those pics of Mark Norris' shooting supposed to support long range shooting or put it to bed. Hey buddy...you're shooting a 12 inch group. Where I come from that is called PATHETIC. I don't give a rip if its at 50 yds or 2 miles away. The fact of the matter is that your 3 shot group is scary and it's even scarier that you think that is picture worthy! If two of those shots are in the vitals then the other one is in the guts and you sure as hell aren't walking that far to follow the shot up.
 

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