AZ 12A East Late

[Slam_a_Rama]

Just got the good word on drawing a 12A East Late tag and now the fun begins. First consideration is guided or unguided. Looking for perspectives on how easy it is to hunt the late season without the assistance of a guide. Also, wondering whether the burn has affected deer movement/migration patterns especially during the rut.

 

[Bura Nut]

Slam, because you may never get this tag again, guided is a pretty good option to ensure you get the most out of the tag. You can definitely go up there unguided and kill a deer, but the caliber of deer you get will not be a monster, with guided you have people already who intimately know the area, are scouting right now and they have the whole camp set up. you dont have to bring anything but your gun and yourself. The burn areas dont affect the migration, they just created much more feed. the last couple of fires really helped on the Kaibab . Call Duwane Adams at 520-385-4995. www.arizonabiggamehunting.com........ Thanks, Allen Taylor......

 

[Bulzeye]

Sorry Allen but you are DEAD WRONG to tell someone that "you can definitely go up there unguided and kill a deer, but the caliber of deer you get will not be a monster." As I'm sure you know last year an unguided guy killed a 42 inch wide monster on the opening morning pretty close to the road. If his buck wasn't the biggest buck killed in Arizona in 2007 it was darn close. There was also a teenage girl that killed a 200 inch buck with her dad last year unguided. I personally killed a 182 inch buck without using a guide. I'm not sure if mine qualifies as a monster, but I'm sure to some people it is.

I know you're buddies with Duwane and like to pimp his services, but suggesting that a guy won't kill a big buck without a guide is about as wrong as saying a guy is garaunteed to kill a monster if he uses a guide.

Every year people kill big deer off the Kaibab with and without guides. Hard work and a little luck go a long way!!!

 

[JJTMD]

I am with you on that one Bulzeye. There are as many or more big bucks taken by unguided Kiabab hunters every year. There are also other people that know the Kiabab as well as Adams. He does the same thing that 90% of the other hunters do. When you take 30 hunters to the Kiabab, some of them are bound to get a good buck.

98% of it is being in the right place at the right time (luck) and I would rather be lucky than good any day.

 

[bogey]

I hunted 12a east EARLY and I think that you could hunt it unguided and do great. Of course a guide will know the land better then you, but if you get any weather the area is not to hard to figure out. There are roads every where, but you hope that most of these roads will be snowed in and you will be hunting the lower areas. I guess it just depends on your financial standing and how you want to do things. I do with out question agree with Allen that you probably will never get the tag again so make the best of it.

 

[CAelknuts]

As a guy who's been on the 12A east late hunt, on my son's 2006 tag where he killed a 188" buck, I've got an opinion and perspective somewhere between BuraNut and Bulzeye. Slam-a-rama, one thing I'd recommend is that you read the article about my son's hunt in the current issue of Muley Crazy, it's on page 19. You'll learn several things about the hunt just from the article and hopefully they'll help you decide whether to go guided or non-guided.

When my son drew, we put in a good amount of time and effort into scouting before the hunt started. I bought the forest service and topo maps for the unit, also purchased Duwane Adams' map service and video about hunting the Kaibab. I spent time talking with Ryan Hatch, Duwane Adams and several others about the hunt. Perhaps the most helpful, if hardest to get in touch with, was Todd Buck, the unit's Game Warden. Mr. Buck was a wealth of information, but very difficult to get in touch with. One additional thing that helped was some of the private messages we got from other Monster Muley and Bowsite members who provided advice based on their experiences in the unit.

We drove to the unit and scouted the weekend before the season opened, mostly learing the roads, where we wanted to camp, checking out areas that Ryan and Duwane recommended. We didn't see a lot of deer but figured out where we wanted to spend most of our time and how we wanted to hunt. I will say that 15 power binoculars and a tripod are more important, in my opinion, than the caliber of rifle you're shooting. You're going to have more luck in finding a big buck if you sit on your butt in a high spot than if you just drive around looking out of the windshield like so many of the other hunters do.

A big part of why we succeeded on our own was pre-season scouting, both at home and in the field. We also hunted long hours every day right up till he killed his buck. Most hunters ended up shooting small bucks, literally forked horns and three point bucks, or small four point bucks. I doubt that a dozen mature bucks over 165 inches were shot on that hunt, out of the 50 tags allocated. I'm fairly certain that less no more than one-half dozen bucks that grossed over 175 were taken on the hunt. The buck my son shot was the only buck we encountered that would have scored more than 150, and 150 isn't a very big buck.

Whether you go guided or on your own, you'll be hunting in the same places much of the time. A big difference with a guide is that you'll be hunting the more productive areas most of the time, rather than figuring them out while you're hunting. Another aspect to consider when deciding to go guided or not is cost. I look at cost a little differently than many other hunters. Don't just look at the price a guide charges. Look at what it's going to cost you to hunt on your own (food, fuel, vehicle expense, etc.), then take the guides charge, including what you'd likely tip your guide, then subtract the 'on your own' cost, and you'll have the actual cost to go on a guided hunt. The difference isn't as large as you might think.

The biggest buck that I'm aware of from the 2006 late season was shot in the first hour of the season, out in an area that had guided and non-guided hunters all in the same area. It was right at 30" wide, scored right at 195" from what I was told. It was killed by a client of Duwane Adams.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

>>The biggest buck that I'm aware of from the 2006 late season was shot in the first hour of the season, out in an area that had guided and non-guided hunters all in the same area. It was right at 30" wide, scored right at 195" from what I was told. It was killed by a client of Duwane Adams.<<

See the photo I posted in this thread:

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID33/257.html

It's the John Wayne Buck killed by Frank Ferguson on the late eastside hunt. He was guided by two of Duwane's guys. Hatch green scored it at 227 gross. -TONY

 

[Bulzeye]

I just want to clarify that I'm not against paying for a guide, especially Duwane Adams. That man flat out knows how to get it done on the Kaibab!!!

I just strongly disagree with the above quated statement that you won't kill a monster buck without using a guide. That's just an outrageous comment to make!

CAelknuts is right on about weighing out the costs and benefits. In the end it's a personal decision.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

Bulzeye,

I agree, especially if someone does his homework or has hunted the Kaibab in the past. The key is knowing HOW to hunt to locate good bucks. -TONY

 

[Bwht4x4]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-22-08 AT 02:28PM (MST)[p]I too drew 12ae late rifle and due to being single and strapped to a mortgage I'll be unguided. I'm hoping that my years of past mule deer hunting in the Kaibab and 13a (archery), Nevada and Utah will help to some degree. I've always hunted the earlier seasons so this late type of rifle hunt will be new to me.

I think that some good glassing techniques and being motivated to do some walking, someone should have a good opportunity to shoot a decent buck. Hopefully a little luck will be on my side too for the hunt.

I'm wondering how many folks are left hunting the last 3-5 days of the season. Of the 50 tags available I'd bet that no more than 5-8 guys would be there for the closing weekend. This could be a good time to hunt and the later it is in the season the better chances we'll have that more snow will push them off the plateau and into the lower country.

How likely is it that the plateau won't receive at least a dusting of snow prior to opening day (November 21)?

 

[OutdoorWriter]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-22-08 AT 03:26PM (MST)[p]A light dusting of snow normally won't move the deer to the lower areas. It takes enough to make getting at their food a problem.

About 20 years ago, a buddy and I had late eastside permits. We drove up two days before the season in bluebird fall weather. Thus, I decided to camp high and actually not too far from where the most recent fire was. So we set up came, including a 12'X 12' tent with an 8'X 12' tarp as a dining fly hung off the front.

The next day we did some scouting, mostly in the big woods and found lots and lots of fresh sign. That night, about 1 a.m., I heard a crash and felt this enormous weight on my chest. About 6" of very wet snow had broken the aluminum center bar of the tent, and the whole thing collapsed on top of us. We literally had to crawl our way to the door to get out.

Anyway, it was still snowing and as soon as I saw the amount of snow, I told my hunting partner we were going to be in the wrong place come morning. We threw everything into the back of my truck and headed down to the low country, via the main highway to the Houserock Road.

We then took the Eastside game trail road to the tops of the lowest set of ridges, where we parked and waited for sunrise. Two hours later, we had both tagged 4 x 4 bucks and headed home to Phx where I spent the next day drying out all the camping gear.

I also killed my biggest Kaibab buck (see below) under similar circumtances in the late 1960s. The only difference was we had set up camp down low on the Eastside GT to start because there already was a good amount of snow on top. -TONY

This is a scan of old photo of our camp.

As you can see, there even was snow down low that year. My grandfather (in the background to the left), who was in his 70s then, killed the smaller buck in the Jeep. -TONY

 

[Bulzeye]

Last year there was not so much as a dusting of snow before opening day of the late hunt. I ended up killing my buck over a water hole while sitting in a lawn chair 72 yards away. The buck was very obviously rutting the does. The water hole was over 7,000 elevation and it was the second buck we killed off that tank in two evenings. I know of several other bucks bigger than mine that were also killed on top of the mountain in the more traditional summer range. We basicly had the top of the mountain to ourselves! Everyone else was hunting down in the winter range.

It was a very unusual year!

 

[Bura Nut]

Tim, I stand corrected. The more appropriate way to say what I meant would be "you stand a much better chance of killing a monster going guided." As everything else in life you can never say never. Anyone could possibly just run into a big buck and punch their tag. I hope whoever drew the Kaibab does kill a monster................ Thanks, Allen Taylor......

 

[Bwht4x4]

If anyone had some time I'd like to pick your brain for the 12ae late hunt info. I'm not looking for any specific spots or anything, just some general trends for this unit. So here's my questions:

1. How important is a quad for this hunt? Are the roads too gnarly for a 3/4 ton diesel?
2. Do more guys hunt the northern half of the unit closer to the highway or the southern half of the unit closer to the Park?
3. I know snow will obviously push the deer down, but will they ever make it to the flats or will they stay at and in the PJ woodland?

Any other info is appreciated and feel free to PM if you'd like.

Bwht4x4

 

[CAelknuts]

The roads are fine to drive in a pickup. I have a chevy crewcab 1500, and it's probably a lot lower than your diesel, and I had no problems at all. Of course, I kept my pickup limited to places one should go, but there are plenty of roads to get around on. You don't need a quad.

Good bucks are killed from one end of the unit to the other, but most hunters will focus on the southern end of the unit, from the east side game road southward.

There should be plenty of deer in the low country, regardless of whether there is snow or not. If you get snow, you're very lucky and it should be a very nice hunt. On my son's hunt, there was only a tiny skiff of snow one night, and there were plenty of deer clear out to the canyon from the day the hunt started, and the snow had nothing to do with it.

The smartest thing you can do, IMO, is find a higher spot and plant your butt where you can sit for a few hours, and spend that time looking through a pair of 15 power binoculars. There are plenty of deer if you just hunt smart.

 

[CAelknuts]

And you'll probably have a better chance of killing a BIG buck if you go with a qualified guide.

 

[Bwht4x4]

I'm a tad confused, but the East Side Game trail travels north to south for most of the unit. Where it hits FS Road #445 it goes east and west a little bit. Are you referring south of this point.

Thanks

p.s. CAelknuts, you live in CA? If so where?

 

[CAelknuts]

The southern end of the East Side Game Road comes out down on the low country right on the House Rock Ranch Road. What I was referring to was that most hunters will be south of that point, though some outstanding bucks are shot north of there. There is some gorgeous country to the north of that point, but I don't think it gets hunted nearly as much as the stuff further south.

Yeah, I live in CA. I'm a little east of Sacramento.

 

[KaibabHntr]

A lot of the 2006 Warm Fire burned up top and most intensely on the east side. It did burn down towards the lower elevations though. I know, its a different situation for the late tag if the snow really hits but heres a cool 3d pic/map of the burn boundaries that shows how the burn came down the east side for your reference...it's from the north looking south.

KaibabHntr
www.KeyToTheKaibab.com
Everything you need to hunt AZ unit 12A!

 

[OutdoorWriter]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-01-08 AT 10:40AM (MST)[p]Guys,

Having hunted the 'Bab nearly every year from about 1962 to the early 70s and a few times after the permit system came into being, I can tell you that the low PJ country on the eastside is NOT the place to look for BIG bucks unless there is a lot of snow on top. Those bigger bucks just won't move down until they have to. But when they do, it happens in a matter of hours.

I talk to Duwane quite a bit, and he told me as recently as two weeks ago that there were no decent bucks and little sign down low the past two years because of the good weather. So stick to the higher elevations, like above 6,500-7,000 ft. -TONY

 

[Bura Nut]

With the way the draw is going for Non-residents, it may be that you draw this tag only once in your life. For residents it is a major problem as well. That being said, anybody could just run into a good buck, but the weather etc... each year makes it hard to say where the bucks will be until the season opens. Like Outdoor writer said, the last two years, the concentration of the bigger bucks has been on top. The big John Wayne buck was killed on the top of the east side last year. Two days before the season opened, there was little sign of many deer down low so Duwane hunted on top and found this buck. I personally would either spend a three or four scouting trips trying to familiarize myself with the area, look for multiple areas to hunt depending on what the weather will do for deer movement or hire a guide who is already familiar with the unit. All of this is said bearing in mind that as a non-resident you probably will only draw this tag once because there are many many non-resident with 8, 9, 10 bounus points out applying ............. Thanks, Allen Taylor......

 

[Bwht4x4]

Thanks for the help guys. I've actually hunted the Kaibab a dozen times or so and our group has killed some great bucks during the archery hunt in the past. I've been throughout the top and lower country, but have never done a rifle hunt there. I drew this tag with max points and know full well this is a once in a lifetime hunt. I'll be there 4-5 days before season opens to try to find if the bucks are on top or in the lower country. However, come November 1, I'll be praying for a couple feet of snow on top to make my search a tad easier.

Thanks

 

[CAelknuts]

The very best advice you're getting is from Outdoorwriter and BuraNut. They're more experienced on the Kaibab than almost anyone else who's posting on MM. Also, I did find the information and products available on KeytotheKaibab to be useful. I bought some maps and stuff from them that helped us succeed.