Paunsaugunt Quality Down

B

Brine

Guest
Last year seemed to be a disasterous year for this unit regarding buck. After the draw there were 69 max. bonus point holders available for the 2008 season and this year only 50 max holders put in for this unit.

The muzzleloader max bonus point holders were 22 (after the draw) and this year only 16 max point holders put in.

Those max point holders were down 38% and 27% respectively on this unit.

Usually one or two drop out from one year to the next. It's just shows how disasterous last year was.

I talked to a couple of hunters last year that said they felt lucky to get a 24"/25" buck.

Paunsaugunt hunt going down, like the rest of the mule deer herds? Let's get rid of the elk herd on this unit. It just may save a quality deer hunt!!
 
You are right the quality is going down, don't even bother to put in any more. Spread the word. I hunted it archery elk this year and all the deer died in the controlled burn. It's a waste of points. Everybody switch to the Vernon unit. Ya, that's the ticket!
 
Yeah, please don't put in for the pauns, if you have a tag turn it back in.

I hear that the elk on the unit have been seen eating deer..., and the tourist at Ruby's are taking the fawns back to Europe as pets.

It's all down hill from here-Vernon is where it's at.

"Dear MacGuyver, Enclosed is a rubber band, a paper clip, and a drinking straw. Please save my dog." Peter Griffin aka The Family Guy
 
Say what you wish I'm not alone and other people agree with me on this unit. When there is two or more competing animals like deer and elk the dominant animal will take over. We have brought the elk herd up as the dominant animal in several other areas and I would like to see Paunsaugut left to the deer.

The previous post was a bit harsh and I'm sure that is why it got deleted from the forum, but he brought across a point.

I just hope game management realize what is good for this unit and build it back to the premium hunt of the past.
 
I thought there weren't enough elk to really have much influence on the Pauns. I'm not convinced that the quality is deteriorating, yet.
 
bob and peter ...........please explain your sarcasm!
I would love to here why you guys think you know more than
most!!
rm
 
Don't know more than most, but a lot more than some.

"Dear MacGuyver, Enclosed is a rubber band, a paper clip, and a drinking straw. Please save my dog." Peter Griffin aka The Family Guy
 
Rack, No one said we know more than most. You are making an assumption. What I said, if it's not obvious, was tongue in cheek. When rumors get out that an area is hot everyone puts in for it, therefore draw odds go up. When people think an area is down in quality draw odds go down and that makes it easier for the rest who do put in to actually draw a tag. Word does spread fast. So if someone wants to think an area is doing poorly, why tell them any different.

Take for instance the area I muzzleloaded for deer last year. It was awesome, many very nice bucks. Very few hunters at first. As the hunt went on you could tell people had been blabbing because more and more people started showing up every day. This year I scouted it in the summer and still was seeing nice bucks. Opening day it was a zoo. How did this change over one season and actually during one season, word of mouth that's how.Now I'm trying to figure out plan B because people talk.

I spent 18 days on the pauns during the archery elk hunt this year so I know how the deer are doing. Am I going to make it public for everyone with a computer to see. Absolutely not. I think everyone can agree this is what destroys an area, blabbing. So call it disinformation or whatever, but I'm sure people who have been trying to draw a tag for a long time don't appreciate when everyone in the state gets a bright idea to put in for an area because they were told it's good on the internet, when they haven't put in the effort to discover it for themselves or in many cases never even been there.

You want to see some tight-lipped hunters, try getting information from a local in the Beaver area. They have learned what happens when word gets out and it's not good.

Now if someone actually draws a tag and pm's for information I gladly help them. Infact I was telling another elk hunter (competition) who I ran into a lot of info, and he told me some things he had seen as well. But I'm not going to blatently stack the odds before a drawing by telling everyone: hey put in here, the hunting's great.
 
bob, please! the pauns isnt exactly a big secret, if you think so you just rolled off the turnip truck. its been in the headlines for 20 years or so, so we better be tite lipped about it huh!

and i also love those that get pissed about people who put in for units they have never been too, hell i put in for states i have never been too. you dont need to have intimate knowledge of a unit to know what it is capable of.

word of mouth, right, go back two decades to try and fix that one. johnny come lately wants it for himself??
 
Reddog, do ya really think everyone knows about the paunsagaunt? Dang, where have I been? What this is about is the first post where the guy says how bad it has become? So let them think that. For instance if a guy says oh this unit has really gone down hill then the majority of the people will say well I guess we will just put in for another unit like the henry's. Every year the draw odds swing from unit to unit sometimes a little sometimes alot. If you really study it you can play the odds and do much better than the average utard.

Here is an example for you. I study the hell out of the trends and odds from year to year. These have been my Utah results in the last 10 years.

1-Southwest desert L.E. elk tag-1999
2-AR 301 elk tags-2000,2001
1-Henrys bison tag-2003
1-San Juan Turkey-2003
1-Paunsagaunt/Dutton archery antelope tag-2006
1-San Juan bear tag-2006
1-Paunsagaunt L.E. elk tag-2008

along with that there have been quite a few antlerless deer and elk tags. I did the dedicated hunter for 6 years but gave up on that because I found I didn't take each hunt as seriously because I knew there was more time to hunt later. Besides I already have a lifetime license so drawing a deer tag is a given.

I don't think there are many people who have drawn 4 limited entry Utah elk tags in ten years. Back in 1999 Southwest Desert wasn't as well known as it is now, I had max points and archery was an easier draw. Not so much now. In 2000 the AR301 was a new hunt and it didn't matter if you were on the waiting period. Most guys don't notice new hunts and odds are always usually lower on a new hunt, got lucky and drew that consecutively(hunted both years on the paunsagaunt). This year I drew paunsagaunt elk with 2 or 3 points (can't remember which), once again low odds for the hunt. So yes the paunsagaunt is or was a secret at least for elk. Every year nice bulls get taken from that unit. I would rather have many decent hunts than one exceptional hunt in my lifetime.

No one here is pissed for people putting in for hunts they have never been to. And you are right you don't need intimate knowledge to know what a unit is capable of or was capable of, WHICH IS WHERE YOU MAKE MY POINT: If you don't have intimate knowledge of how it really is, many people would read the first post in this thread and say-Oh the paunsagaunt sucks now, I might as well put in elsewhere. Which once again will slightly change the odds next year. The more that rumor grows the better the odds.

I will say this from what I saw this year on the paunsagaunt, the deer herd has drastically changed from how it looked when I hunted it in 2000-2001. But without intimate knowledge, people don't know if it has changed for the better or worse.
 
deadibob....
thanks for your valued opinion.... I just thought you guys were blowing hot air!- well at lease you are not. I've just seen the Pauns at its best and again when it was on the way down in 2000! I hope its been an issue of the DWR because they want it and call it a trophy Buck unit and should maintain it as such. I will have a shot at hunting it again in a few more years! I only heard about the down swing for the worst and not the better and wished it would get better!
rm
 
Rack hope you draw again real soon. There may be some interesting opportunities on the pauns in the near future.

How's that saying go? "It aint as good as it once was, but it's as good now is it ever was..."

Now the Henries, that place is over rated...:)

"Dear MacGuyver, Enclosed is a rubber band, a paper clip, and a drinking straw. Please save my dog." Peter Griffin aka The Family Guy
 
Deadibob

Love your resume:


Here's my draw tag resume:

2 - ML Bull elk tags.
1 - Henrie Mountain bull tag.
2 - Elk Ridge buck deer tags.
3 - Paunsaugunt buck deer tags.
** - Won't hunt antlerless (anything), but I am not being critical those of you that do.
that's just a few, other areas I've hunted are Indian Peaks, West Desert, Pahvant, Ogden mountain, Diamond Fork, Promontory, Snowville, Thousand Lake, Boulder, Parker, East Canyon, Billies Mountain, and even the Waweap and that's leaving some out and just Utah.

Along with this on the Paunsaugunt, my wife has drawn twice, and I have three kids that have each drawn - - - and the off years we have scouted and taken pictures on the Pauns. I even hunted the Pauns before it was a draw. What does all of this mean - ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

At Elk Ridge when the elk herd increased the deer herd dropped. In Idaho when the elk herds increased the deer herds declined. Are there other factors, of course there are! Never the less, an increase in elk herds is also a factor in declining deer herds. Just cause they don't eat the deer doesn't mean they aren't a factor. To me, leave the Pauns. for the deer and get rid of the elk. If allowed they will take over. They are practically every where else in the state and so be it. MY VOTE IS DEER ONLY ON THE PAUNSAUGUNT.
 
Hey deadibob i tried to PM you but it wouldnt work for some reason. I would like to talk with you about your elk hunt this year i had the archery deer tag down there this year i just wanted to see how you did on elk this year. I have had my mind set for the last four years or so that after i draw the deer tag down there i was gonna try for a archery elk tag down there. If you would be willing to chat my email address is [email protected] Thanks
 
I just wnated to say that in the glory days on the pauns there were ten times the elk there are now, maybe more then ten times. The elk were not,and are not the problem with the pauns. If you want to put blame somewhere blame the huge #s of land owner tags, and LE draw tags. if you take out the best genetics every year, you will be stuk with lesser genetics = smaller bucks. And before any one says I know nothing about the area I have lived here my whole life and have worked on the unit for several years.
 
Shed Crazy,

I challenge what you are saying. The first year I hunting Paunsaugunt, a hunter would only find 10 to 20 elk. Here's some DWR facts fpr the year 2000 to 2004. They are 50, 50, 60,and the last year in the survey was 80 elk. Here's is the scaring part. AN OBJECTIVE OF 200 ELK. Watch your premium deer hunt go down then.

With your statement, shed crazy, show me documented facts. I don't buy what you're saying.

The way I see it, you Pauns. mule deer hunters better get very vocal with the game management people now, or wave your hunt goodbye.
 
Brine,
That survey by the DWR is so far off base it's like they were smoking crack the day they went out and surveyed. I remember reading the population estimate numbers in 2000 at a rac meeting in St. George. They claimed 50 animals for the whole unit. Well earlier that summer while scouting I saw over 50 elk in one group at one time. And I saw more elk that day besides that large group.

Anyone who puts any faith whatsoever in DWR herd estimates is a chump and I got a car I want to sell ya, it's a nice one, broken in and everything, I'll make you a good deal.

The DWR has no clue. Have you ever been on a unit count with them and seen the formula they use to come up with numbers. I have and it's a friggin' joke.
 
[(quote from Shed Crazy2)I just wnated to say that in the glory days on the pauns there were ten times the elk there are now, maybe more then ten times.]

Are you saying this above statement is correct? I know better!!! I've hunted high and I've hunted low and I've been on the unit looking most years since that first great hunt.

Let's get realistic. I guess the agumentative question is whether elk have ANY NEGATIVE effect on the deer herd. You already seem to be saying the DWR are like our politicians in our great capitol.

They have good hind sight until they ruin our PREMIUM DEER HUNT.
 
I dont have documented proof that there were more elk, but I did see them with my own eyes. In the early to late 90s you could go out any night during the summer with a spotlight just along the east fork road and see well over 100 elk, and for some reason you could see just as many or more deer feeding on the edges of the same medows and hillsides. Go ahead and chalenge what i say alot of good that will do you. Just two years ago the great DWR did their counts and said there were only 50 or less animals on the whole unit. I was out in the hills when they did a couple of their counts airplane and helicopeter. I saw a herd of 50 cows and calves That they totally missed, I also saw 30 bulls the nest day and I would be willing to bet they missed them too. one of the counts I read form last year said there were only supposed to be something like 27 elk on the unit, and I have deffinatly seen more then that this year.
I am by no means an expert on deer or elk, but I do know that they can and do coexist. Elk are grazers = grass eaters and deer are browsers = mostly eating shrubs and brush ie: bitter brush, sage brush, and fourwing salt brush. But hey maybe the text books I studied in college were way off and they had no clue what they were talking about, yup brine you are the expert you must be right. What do scientists know any way? Maybe next time you "hunt high and low" you should open your eyes.
 
WOW I can't believe how many tags you guys have been drawing!!! Here's my tag draw results:

1997: High Country Buck Tag, Successful (First deer) 2 point
1998: Unsuccess: Deseret Buck
1999: Unsuccess: Deseret Buck
2002: Unsuccess: Deseret Buck
2003: Unsuccess: Deseret Buck
2004: Unsuccess: Book CLiffs Buck
2005: Unsuccess: Book CLiffs Buck
2006: Unsuccess: Book CLiffs Buck
2007: Unsuccess: Book CLiffs Buck
2008: Unsuccess: Book Cliffs Buck

LOL And you guys are posting that you've drawn multiple tags? LUCKY!!!
 
[QUOTE(Elk are grazers = grass eaters and deer are browsers = mostly eating shrubs and brush ie: bitter brush, sage brush, and fourwing salt brush. But hey maybe the text books I studied in college were way off and they had no clue what they were talking about, yup brine you are the expert you must be right. What do scientists know any way? Maybe next time you "hunt high and low" you should open your eyes)]

What you say here is correct, but only part of the issue. Some scientists/biologists are starting to see the REST OF THE STORY. Stress on the deer by the elk as well as other factors are starting to surface. Apparently you are calling the DWR and their fact sheets "liars".

There are more hunters/biologists that are starting to see the COMPLETE problem rather than a paragraph from a text book.
 
Brine I do agree with you that elk do play a role in affecting mule deer and do harrass and stress them. I also personally believe that the elk herd on the paunsagaunt is too minute to affect the deer herd there. I believe that the elk numbers would have to be raised significantly before they began to impact the elk.

Even if there are 200 elk on the unit, this is a large unit and the animals are spread out from the plateau down into Hatch and the CWMU. Don't forget the National Park holds a lot of the elk as well. Not to mention that these animals are not constantly in the unit. Some of these animals are transients and cross from Dutton/Boulder into the Pauns.

Even if you don't like having elk on the unit there are many varying opinions, many of which contrast yours. Good luck getting your policy recommendations changed by the Division. I'm sure you will run into some resistance along the way.
 
Brine, also in your previous question which wasn't directed at me. I would be willing to call the DWR and their fact sheets "LIARS" or at the least "not completely factual" on many different issues.
 
I was not calling any one "LIARS" But there is someting very wrong with their counts or the way they are conducted. I know it is probably a $$$ issue. But I do know the elk counts are incorrect and for some reason alot of the elk have been missed for years. I am out in the hills almost every day weather it be on my own time looking for animals or for my job, and as far as the pauns is concerned elk are not an issue with the deer herd. Like DB siad it is a large piece of ground and at least for the last several years there has been enough food to go around for all species. The numbers of elk that did leave the pauns the winter after the dutton burned and stayed was huge, and if they did have an effect on the deer herd why has there not a spike in deer numbers every year since 2002?
There are many factors at work against the deer herd on the pauns, here are a few: Mt lions, ATV users legal and illegal, cattle, and the late winter hunts in northern AZ that do kill several big pauns bucks that migrate down there. I want your opinion on some of these issues.
 
My friend,

The last paragraph of your message is at this time more of a concern to me than the elk, but how are you going to get more lions killed or Arizonia to change.

1) The trouble with elk is that the inherent problem is not as obvious as the others and pretty soon they will take over.

2) Most of the whole state is more of an elk hunt state than deer hunting, so we need to leave this unit for the deer hunters. Elk hunters are in the mountains where elk are before, during, and after the hunts along with every thing else. Let's give it a rest.

I've beaten this post to death and am signing off. It was interesting.
 
I was always surprised by the amount of Elk I've seen on the plateau(during deer hunting and scouting)...seen at lease 200 even in late 90's and in 2000' they need more tags for hunters I thought!
rm
 
I will throw my two cents in on this. Whether elk are a problem or not we could debate for days about it and I have with many people. The fact is this is a premium deer unit, one of two in the state we have. We are charged a premium price for the oppurtunity to hunt a trophy deer. habitat is down so they say and we feed plenty of mouths on this unit besides the elk. We give out less than 30 tags on this unit for bull elk with no cow tags. They manage the unit for 175 population on the unit. I believe there is more alot more. Our summer range gets hit the hardest with these animals as they work from the dutton over. I can go on and on and the fact is we still have a premium unit for deer per say there is no need to have 2 dominant species. open the unit for elk and lets see what happens.

Mick,
 
I spend quite a bit of time on the gaunt each year and i believe that a big problem on that unit is that the genetics are on the downhill slide due to selective hunters. People hunt and want a big four point that scores well, they let a lot of very mature very dominant two and three points walk. When the rut rolls around the most mature bucks do a lot the breeding and the big three's pass on more and more bad genes. I hunted the pauns with my brother last year and sat a heavily used migration trail, of all the bucks we saw over the two foot mark probably sixty percent were three points or two by three. You cant blame the hunters for this, when i draw that tag gross score will be at the very front of my mind. I almost wish we could do a management hunt and get rid of some of these genes. It might slow the points creep a little too. I also have noticed a lot more elk down lower in the unit this year than in the past and was wondering why but i got out and found a lot of grasses growing around the sage brush, maybe due to the extra precip this year.
 

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