The perfect plan

[swbuckmaster]

Mule deer elk proposal "Here me out I think this is a great one"

We have two many elk and not enough deer

These meetings/proposals always turn into a rifle vs. bow issue which is plain BS. We need to come together and do what is best for the health of our deer.

If you want to see what an awesome over the counter deer area looks like Look at the Wasatch front. If you want to see what a poor area for a general rifle tag looks like just purchase one and hunt pretty much anywhere in this state.

The difference is how many rifle tags each area has. I think we can meet somewhere in the middle on this one for the health of the deer/elk herds.

HERE ME OUT BECAUSE IT GETS GOOD FOR RIFLE GUYS!

I say 30% rifle 30% muzzy 30% archery tags ?mandatory draw with first choice second choice and third choice options? this would go also for LE units. Mandatory game check in stations at gas stations all over the state cost 5 dollars per animal to check in. All animals go into a computer model of how many animals need to be take off each unit to meet objective.

If we have deer/elk areas that are at objective in this state ?meaning two many elk or deer? we have a rifle management hunt after the initial hunts. Anyone can draw these tags no waiting period and no bonus points. Just luck of the draw. You will have to take a 2x4 or 3x4 deer and a 5x5 or 5x6 for elk.

Time for another mandatory count and survey to see what kind of quality and or quantity is out their. If the division still needs to do more culling than one more rifle hunt will be issued this time it is a spike/cow hunt for elk or a two point or smaller/doe hunt for deer.

This should satisfy all the meat hunters in this state. It also protects the high end quality on a given area.


Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[Deerlove]

Fair enough

 

[coolspringoutfitters]

Where are you going to get the manpower??? The DWR sells a ton of deer tags to make a PROFIT, they are not going to hire more people (and they would need a bunch) just to sit a gas stations. You could argue that the dedicated hunters could do it, but they would rather be hunting. There is no way to fund it. $5 per is a start, but even then, its still not near enough.
It is an interesting idea, it just won't work. We have to have an over abundance before we start issuing "management" tags...we don't have it now (at least for deer)! ! !
In order to do this you would have to cut the regions down...can anyone say MICRO MANAGEMENT ! ! ! Thats really all you are doing... Its the same candy bar, you just have a diffrent wrapper.

CSO

It's all about the good times...

 

[swbuckmaster]

CSO said
?Where are you going to get the manpower??? The DWR sells a ton of deer tags to make a PROFIT, they are not going to hire more people (and they would need a bunch) just to sit a gas stations.?


Good question here is an answer You could do internet surveys for the first hunt because it doesn't matter what they kill it would still cost 5 bucks to do it and it is mandatory or you cant apply for a tag next year!

For the second and third surveys it will be certain designated gas stations or similar establishments that want to help out. Raise the price so these establishments make money also. Make it a computer survey so it is also easy and the numbers can get tallied up quicker. Say raise it to $10 maybe $15

?It is an interesting idea, it just won't work. We have to have an over abundance before we start issuing "management" tags...we don't have it now (at least for deer)! ! !?

You are correct we don't have an over abundance of deer
That is why I would like to cut tags for the most successful weapon. I however don't want to cut opportunity. This is a compromise.

BUT we are on the exact opposite for elk. The elk need to be culled on some units.
This is a way to give out more tags while protecting the quality.

Remember also I am not just proposing this for general areas I am proposing it for Le areas also. I was on the bookcliffs this year and there are so many older age deer that are running around that nobody wants to take. A management hunt lets someone take these deer with out hurting their points.










Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[coolspringoutfitters]

I agree that the elk need to be better controlled, there are a lot of ugly ones out there.
I like the idea of culling on LE units. It only makes sense. If we want better quality on them, thats the way to do it.
The big question that I have, is how are you going to control areas that need to have 2nd or 3rd seasons? It would be pretty hard to say go ahead and hunt the first season in the central unit, but on the second season you can only hunt in the Deeps. How can you control that?
Will guys that got one on the first hunt be able to get a tag for the second hunt?
How is this diffrent from micro management? I understand that it would be a 2 or 3 hunt process, but wouldn't it be easier to just break the units down, have the same reporting system, and control the tags that way? If it were mirco managed and unit 23 is over populated, give a 2nd season there, or just increase the tags next year. The way your plan sounds is if you have a central tag, you can hunt the entire thing, it would only make sense that if it was reported that there was an over abundance of animals on Nebo, you could draw a central tag on the second season and hunt around Heber. At least that is what could happen. There really isn't a way to have the 5 big regions for the first hunt then break them up for the second.
The more I think about it, the more I like your idea...but I think we would still need to micro manage the whole state (and include the LE units)
Good Stuff!

CSO

It's all about the good times...

 

[Packout]

Scott, what do we do with the other 10%? (30+30+30=90) haha

Strictly talking deer:
Since muzzleloader tags have as high or higher success rates than rifle tags, there is no real reason to give more designated opportunity there. And since archers are have success rates in the 20s and rifle is in the 30s we would save about 7,000 deer statewide if we made ALL rifle tags archery only. I just don't see that saving 7,000 bucks is worth making my Dad or my wife or my buddy's 12 year old, or my lazy friend who won't become proficient with a bow (you know who you are) switch over to a weapon they have no desire or physical ability to use.

I could see the management hunts on very select units, but that idea seems to have been left by the way side in committee. That sure sounded like a pessimistic post on my part.....

-------------------------
www.sagebasin.com
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[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

I like smaller units with a decreasd in rifle tags. I am also a huge fan of mandatory surveys for every person holding a hunting license for big game animals. Penalties could include not being able to put in for any type of hunting license the following year, or loss of a bonus point for that year, etc. there are many things that can be done to keep opportunity at an acceptable level yet reduce the harvest ratios to begin with. Great post SWBM.


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com

 

[oakbrush]

I agree with you SW. But the checkpoint thing would be 2 much. Just have everyone fill out an online questioniare after the hunts. If the don't fill out the questioniare, they are ineligable to apply the following year. It works for Nevada.

Oakbrush

 

[coolspringoutfitters]

I agree, just make it manditory, online, within 15 days...
CSO

It's all about the good times...

 

[swbuckmaster]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-16-08 AT 02:10PM (MST)[p]Although you guys might think this is a micro management plan it is way different. But it wouldn't hurt to see it turned into smaller units. Like you suggest I personally like micro unites

I believe my plan is to compromise between hunting groups for what is good for the deer/elk.
If any unit is at objective rifle tags are the best, quickest, most efficient way to get them back in line.

This is the exact opposite for areas that are under objective. If you want to still give out ?opportunity? for hunters until an area rebounds you need to cut tags to the most successful weapon.

Packout if you think muzzle loaders are still just as affective as a rifle as maybe take away the scope or make them where orange. But I don't want to go there. I personally still think they are a lot less effective than a rifle. They get one shot and they have less range.


Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[swbuckmaster]

I don't care about the first hunt and how they check them but I want some kind of check on the second and third hunt so people are not just going out and taking animals that those hunts aren't designed for.

But if it came down to this if it were going to pass or not I would scrap the check stations and go all internet or division office.

I want the data to get processed quickly and cheep. I don't want to burden the division anymore they already have their plate full.

I also want time for division to digest the info and make a decision on whether or not more tags are going to be issued.



Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[swbuckmaster]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-16-08 AT 02:29PM (MST)[p]SureShot the other 10% could go to indians, handy cap, and auction tags, i dont know

LOL my math sucks


Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[SureShot]

"Scott, what do we do with the other 10%? (30+30+30=90) haha"

Those go to the conversation groups to auction off to the highest bidder...

 

[swbuckmaster]

CSO said
?The big question that I have, is how are you going to control areas that need to have 2nd or 3rd seasons? ?

The only way their will be a second or third season is if a unit is over objective. The division has a model of what a unit looks like before the hunt begins. The survey that would be mandatory will tell them the results of the first hunt. It will tell them the wounding loss which will also help with the knowing how many tags they can issue for the remaining hunts.

?It would be pretty hard to say go ahead and hunt the first season in the central unit, but on the second season you can only hunt in the Deeps.
How can you control that??

People that drew out for the first season will not be eligible unless it goes underscribed for the second or third season. The first season will be a draw with bonus points but any second or third season hunt will be over the counter put you name in a hat a draw and good luck to who ever draws. No bonus points



Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[oakbrush]

I think that the only 2nd or 3rd season option should be a muzz or archery hunt with a small amount of tags in November on the units that would be over objective. You would get several people that would apply for these hunts as thier first choice, making odds a little better in the other draws. Lets get to objective first.

oakbrush

 

[swbuckmaster]

oakbrush said
"I think that the only 2nd or 3rd season option should be a muzz or archery hunt with a small amount of tags in November on the units that would be over objective. You would get several people that would apply for these hunts as thier first choice, making odds a little better in the other draws. Lets get to objective first."

no! The rifle hunters in my plan are giving up the most at first they should be rewarded IMHO.

 

[swbuckmaster]

When people in Utah say deer hunting sucks. I have to say no way because of where I hunt! I personally believe we can come together and meet somewhere in the middle. This state is proof of both extremes good or bad but somewhere in the middle lies the answers in my mind
Compromise!

If you haven't been on the Wasatch front you will never have a chance to see how good a general unlimited over the counter deer tag can be in Utah ?unless you are a rifle hunter.? Archery is a way to manage ?hunter opportunity? without significantly hurting the quality or quantity on any given unit. The front is proof of this

Here are a few pictures of the last four years with an over the counter tag in Utah. I have killed several more. Some people would like to kill a deer this good on a LE unit, let alone on a general unit you can hunt every year.

The glass is half full for some and filled for others lets make a compromise in the middle

Keep this debate open keep the suggestions going.

Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[blazingsaddle]

For 2007
Rifle success was 67%
Muzzy was 17%
Archery 14%

If I recall my info correctly?

 

[swbuckmaster]

Does everyone agree with the plan or is it full of holes?

What are your general thoughts or opinions? I want to hear from both sides? rifle guys, muzzy guys and archery guys.

All I got out of the one deer comity meeting I went to this year was an argument on the state wide archery going to be pick your region for the first 9 days, and the henneries and paunsagunt having a management tag to allow more deer to be taken with out letting you have a shot at the big one.

Wow! That was all they could come up with to help the deer numbers out this year. I feel like it was a waste of time.

 

[Dahlmer]

Here are the major holes that I see.

1. As has already been mentioned muzzleloader success ratios are the equivalent of any weapon success ratios. Here are the numbers from 2000 - 06.

Rifle MZ
'06 38% 37.6%
'05 26.4% 27.4%
'04 35.6% 31.1%
'03 25.3% 28.3%
'02 26.6% 27.6
'01 31.1% 31.8%
'00 32.7% 38.7%

At the end of the day you killed the same deer, just with a different weapon.

2. As has already been mentioned, the impact of changing current weapon allotments to those you suggested would save very few deer. Assuming you increase archery permits by 12,000 and assume an average success ratio of 18% for archery and 30% for rifle, you would kill 1,440 fewer bucks per year.

3. You assume that there is demand for nearly double the current number of archery and muzzleloader tags. Archery tags only began selling out the last couple of years at current levels. Furthermore, 6600+ archery tags were still available over the counter after the draw. That tells me that many of those who purchased an archery tag would have prefered to hunt with their rifle...not all, but many.

4. There are many issues to address when talking about hunting management. Many are biological, but the are also socialogical issues that must be addressed as well. It will be impossible to sell the idea of cutting rifle permits in half. These permits have by far the highest level of demand with less than 50% odds of drawing in some regions. It simply will not fly...sorry.

5. Finally, your proposal addressed the issue of over harvest...I don't believe that is the issue and I don't believe the UDWR does either. To grow and sustain a healthy deer herd the predominant issues are the health and fertility of does and fawn recruitment. Find a way to decrease deer/auto collisions which kill far more deer than hunters do and most of them are does and fawns. Find a way to improve winter range conditions and to keep pressure off of deer during Jan - May. Pray for mild winters. Find a way to protect wildlife migration corridors.

Anyway...those are the holes I see.

 

[MountainTime]

From a biological standpoint I think the basic tenet of your plan is good and simple. Shifting hunters to ?less-effective? weapons would allow for increased quality and in turn more opportunity. (Although based on your current streak that might be hard to argue that a bow is a ?less-effective? weapon ;-0). Really the crux of the issue is that rifle hunters would be displaced and be faced with lost opportunity. Would these displaced rifle hunters be interested in the opportunity of hunting with a bow/muzzle loader? It has only been within the last 3-4 years that archery tags have started to consistently sell out in Utah.

In order for your plan to work I think people would need more incentive to lay down the rifle and pick up another weapon. Here area a couple of ideas:

Muzzle loader- Moved back to November- Along with this I would suggest that in-line?s are no longer allowed(Granted they are not as effective as a rifle but they are close and we are talking about hunting during the rut)

Archery- Like many other states, move the archery Elk hunts to the rut and the rifle hunts out.
Create an archery only area in the southern part of the state.
Keep archery statewide

 

[cabinfever]

I like 1/3 rifle 1/3 muzzy 1/3 archery.That keeps the oppurtunity in place but allows for some bucks to reach maturity.

Your biggest obstacle is all the guys in UT who think it's there god given right to shoot two points with a rifle every year.

Ultimately though, I agree with AWB suggestion.Micromanagement, micromanagement, micromanagement.

Mike

 

[swbuckmaster]

Dahlmer thanks for your insight it is good hearing what I am up against

You posted the success rates. To me I don't doubt the success rates are as good as you presented but in my simple little mind I just don't see how it wouldn't hurt to adjust people to a more primitive weapon. I personal on every rifle hunt I have ever been on have herd the bang, boom, bang, boom, and so on reload bang, boom. I believe if you only get one shot you are not going to be as successful, especially if you shorten the range of that weapon.

Now day?s deer can't even get away. When a deer is on the opposite canyon you can reach out and touch them with a rifle and you won't be able to do this with a muzzy. So I personally believe more bucks will make it through the hunts. This comes from experience of using a short range weapon.

You said:
?At the end of the day you killed the same deer, just with a different weapon.?

Even if you do kill the same number of deer ?which I doubt? I believe it will be from a wider range of age class deer. Which more healthy for the herd

?2. As has already been mentioned, the impact of changing current weapon allotments to those you suggested would save very few deer. Assuming you increase archery permits by 12,000 and assume an average success ratio of 18% for archery and 30% for rifle, you would kill 1,440 fewer bucks per year.?

That is 1,440 more bucks than we have now that made it one more year. Hunting the front every year I get to see deer grow up. One more year on any given deer can make for some great horn growth.

"3. You assume that there is demand for nearly double the current number of archery and muzzleloader tags. Archery tags only began selling out the last couple of years at current levels. Furthermore, 6600+ archery tags were still available over the counter after the draw. That tells me that many of those who purchased an archery tag would have prefered to hunt with their rifle...not all, but many."

You made a good point it might not sell out so you have increased the buck numbers again. But people are beging to see archery is a good way to still go out and hunt as a family you can always get a tag, you can hunt state wide, you can still see deer, it has good weather, and there is still a good chance you might kill a deer.

?4. There are many issues to address when talking about hunting management. Many are biological, but the are also socialogical issues that must be addressed as well. It will be impossible to sell the idea of cutting rifle permits in half. These permits have by far the highest level of demand with less than 50% odds of drawing in some regions. It simply will not fly...sorry.?

These are the same people that are stating they want change. The only way you will grow more bucks is to limit hunters or increase habitat. My plan will allow hunters to still get out and hunt. I believe you will sell the archer tags or the muzzle loader tags it might take some more time but people will come around just like they already have. The archery tags are selling out faster every year.

?5. Finally, your proposal addressed the issue of over harvest...I don't believe that is the issue and I don't believe the UDWR does either. To grow and sustain a healthy deer herd the predominant issues are the health and fertility of does and fawn recruitment. Find a way to decrease deer/auto collisions which kill far more deer than hunters do and most of them are does and fawns. Find a way to improve winter range conditions and to keep pressure off of deer during Jan - May. Pray for mild winters. Find a way to protect wildlife migration corridors.?

You are correct I personally believe in every thing you have stated on #5

Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[nebo12000]

check out the DWR recommendations that are now posted on their website. Micro-management is part of it, management deer permits for the Pauns & Henrys, restrictions on Archery, no more management Elk permits---

 

[swbuckmaster]

MountainTime said:
?In order for your plan to work I think people would need more incentive to lay down the rifle and pick up another weapon.?

In my plan they will get incentive when a unit is at objective. Rifle hunters will be the tool to do the managing. I will post a few pictures for insentive also.

?Muzzle loader- Moved back to November- Along with this I would suggest that in-line?s are no longer allowed(Granted they are not as effective as a rifle but they are close and we are talking about hunting during the rut)?

I don't believe allowing any rifle or muzzle loader to be allowed on any hunt during the rut especially for deer. They are two effective and the bucks are two visible.

?Archery- Like many other states, move the archery Elk hunts to the rut and the rifle hunts out.?

I could agree with this one but I am also biased. I am trying to develop a plan that is more neutral that will allow any general area for elk or deer to be almost as good as I have it on the front.

?Create an archery only area in the southern part of the state.?

I would love to see that happen for the southern folks. It is a great way to have increased opportunity at large bucks for a 4 month long season with an over the counter tag, especially if it is in an area that has good winter range. The Wasatch front can only handle so many deer because there is no winter range. If you implemented an archery only area somewhere you have winter range and the winter range could be protected you would have massive amounts of deer with all kinds of horn growth. But then I am biased and have seen what good they can bring to those that just pick up a bow.

?Keep archery statewide?
agreed more incentive to pick up a lesser weapon

By the way the front probably has 35-40 bucks per 100 does and an average age of 4 years old. I have hunted deer closer to 8 and 9 years old that were never killed by a hunter that I know of. My friend Jerry slaugh has sheds off a buck that went 210"
I have also hunted deer several years in a row that went between 200-220 that were killed. Here is a picture of one of those.

This buck doesn't even compare to one we hunted for 4 years straight that we named slick. WOW slick's typical frame would go around 215"
Here are a few others
my good friend gary wilson took this buck we named lefty

this a buck we named righty and it was lefty's good buddy

my good friend Andy Adamson cousin Jason adamson took this buck
36" wide

I took these photos through a spotting scope. My photos taken this way are embarising to say the least.

 

[swbuckmaster]

some wehre in the middle there has got to be a way to have hunting uforia like I have and a barren deer desert like the general rifle area.

I relize every area in the state cant be as good as I have it because there are too many people that wont pick up a bow. they choose to hunt with a rifle. But maybe we can adjust things so they have to choose a more primitive weapon.

Archery is a terriable way to manage deer we simply cant kill or wound enough deer to keep the deer number from going out ouf control.

The only way the deer numbers stay in check on the frot is:

1.there are huge populations of preditors, including bears, coyotes that are lage enought to take a deer down. and cougars that have never seen a hound dog.

2.Cars also take bunch of deer in this area.

3. hunters can hunt these deer from aug thru the end of november and does untill dec 15 i believe.

4.And last but not least winter kill is a big deal have you ever see how much snow is dumped between i-80 and point of the mountain. This is main reason the deer havent gone out of control

Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[swbuckmaster]

nebo12000

could you post a link I cant find it anywhere


Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[proutdoors]

http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/next.php

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.