Utah DWR Big game Proposals

N

nebo12000

Active Member
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The DWR's proposals for '09-'13 are now on their website. There are some inmportant changes that all Utah hunters will want be aware of-- "micro-management" of deer units based on buck/doe ratios, ability to purchase bonus points for every species, management deer permits (Pauns, Henry's), antler gathering season statewide, elimination of management bull elk permits,seasonal road closures including ATV restrictions---
 
It's about time for the Road closures. I am assuming this means those damn trail bikes too not just ATV's. If not, that is something that needs to be addressed. There are some sound management proposals there and some that don't make any sense at all. You can tell the ones that are statistically based and the ones that aren't. Thanks Nebo!

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
Where did you find the portion about applying for more preference/bonus points? I cannot seem to find it.
 
I can't find it on the DWR website. Help us out Nebo.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Thanks for the link. Interesting that they are proposing that a person can apply for one limited entry and one O.I.L. but now they would allow point purchase for all other species. That is a big huge change.
 
The DWR is proposing doing away with statewide archery for deer, but going to statewide archery for elk. Now EVERY LE elk archery hunter will be competing with spike hunters for their O.I.L. tag. WTF?

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-17-08 AT 12:27PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-17-08 AT 12:22?PM (MST)

They're increasing opportunity. ;-)
 
well one thing is for sure all of the LE archers are really going to appreciate the last week to themselves now. Even though next year the hunt is still at least a week away from the end of the hunt.

alpinebowman

>>>---shots that are true pass right through--->

National guard archery staff shooter
 
Here is where it talks about statewide spike tags: "5) We recommend expanding the statewide spike hunt to include all Limited Entry Units. We recommend the permit numbers be increased from 11,000 to 17,000.

6)We recommend shortening the Limited Entry Elk rifle hunt from 11 days to 9 days to make it consistent with the muzzleloader hunt and allow for a two day gap between the rifle and muzzleloader hunt."

Strange, the current elk management plan calls for DECREASING the number of spike tags and INCREASING the number of mature bull tags, and yet the DWR is recommending doing the exact opposite! Of course one of the wildlife board members, who are supposed to be looking out for us, said to me on public record they don't 'need' to follow the EMP they can do whatever they want. Then why have a management plan at all?

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
All these proposed changes are going to be interpreted differently by everyone...I'll continue to archery deer hunt northern Utah and continue to put in for elk in Pahvant or San Juan every year whether they make these changes or not. It'll cost me a combo license $30, $35 deer tag, and $5 for another elk point each year....AZ, NM, CO, WY, and ID however will all get a hell of a lot more money from me because that's where I'll be trophy mule deer hunting in the future!!

Utah = Meat Bucks, with the current DWR reps running the show...

What pisses me off more than anything is 47% of the damn hunters took the time to respond to the DWR survey this July!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

~Z~
 
So the state is going to limit the bow hunters to one region until September 1 so that they can get an idea of where people hunt?

If you limit the people to one region they will only hunt one region!!!!! They are creating the results by limiting the area the person can hunt.

If you want to know where people are hunting call them and ask, have them fill out a form saying how many times they hunted and where they hunted to get a license the next year.....

This isn't about them getting data, they could get better data other ways. This is the first step to limiting where bow hunters hunt, the next step will be limiting the number of bow hunters to each region.

This is also the first step to getting the whole state made into limited entry units and we all know that once a area is made into a limited entry unit it never changes back.
 
>This is also the first step
>to getting the whole state
>made into limited entry units
>and we all know that
>once a area is made
>into a limited entry unit
>it never changes back.

BINGO!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-17-08 AT 03:20PM (MST)[p]"The DWR is proposing doing away with statewide archery for deer, but going to statewide archery for elk. Now EVERY LE elk archery hunter will be competing with spike hunters for their O.I.L. tag. WTF?
PRO"




Ya, but according to the dumb A plan from last year you will still have the last 5 days all by yourself on a limited entry hunt.
 
>Ya, but according to the dumb
>A plan from last year
>you will still have the
>last 5 days all by
>yourself on a limited entry
>hunt.

BFD! How many days do rifle/muzzy hunters have to compete with spike elk hunters? Answer; ZERO! Compare that to more than 80% of the archers hunt. Think about it!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
My, my, my...let's let people buy bonus points for every species every year. That way everyone can have 15 points for each species and the guys who truly want that deer or elk tag exclusively won't have a chance becuase every Tom, #####, and Harry who doesn't care to draw anything decided to buy points "just in case!!!" What the hell...

Oh, and let's alott 5% of the tags to applicants with 1-5 points...then in the VERY NEXT BREATHE let's recommend that applicants aren't even eligible for the draw for the first 3 years. That surely makes perfect sense!!!

Wow...Utah DWR at it's finest.
 
Never said, "I'll continue to archery deer hunt northern Utah and continue to put in for elk in Pahvant or San Juan every year whether they make these changes or not." They are also proposing giving out 3000 more archery tags in the Norther Region. Don't be to complacent. Sounds like you're going to have a lot more company in your little paradise.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
No more statewide and spike hunters every where? What a joke. I can't believe the Utah DWR gets paid for their efforts. They obviously do not look at the management plans or use logic in their proposals.

"To combat public perception". What does that mean? Could it mean that there are only 4400 bowhunters in the southern region during the archery hunt, BUT there are over 5000 Dedicated hunters with southern tag permits? Perhaps the dedicated hunters have a slight problem in the southern region? How can 4400 bowhunters overcrowd the southern region while 10,000 rifle hunters don't? I guess public perception is everything. And the facts mean nothing?

Why would we want to send thousands of spike hunters into the San Juan, SW Desert or Pahvant? Killing all those spikes will drastically affect the tag allocation for the near future. Your quality and permit numbers are going down! I hope the public shows up and screams BS on that one too!

All I can say is WOW!

I am extremely disappointed in the DWR once again!
 
AWHOLELOTTABULL...luckily I have private propert surrounded by CWMU's, have plenty of bucks to hunt, and don't have to fight the crowds each year on the archery hunt. Does it give me a who cares what happens attitude because i'm not everyone else...NOT A CHANCE IN HELL!! I'll be at the meetings in November as well fighting for what I think is right for every damn hunter in this state!! Utah DWR is a bigger joke than i've ever realized before...this BS makes me sick to my stomach as much as you or the next guy, whether it directly affects me or not.

~Z~
 
Being able to purchase more than one bonus point doesn't help anyone with draw odds and only serves one purpose. To raise money for the coffers. Call a spade a spade, DWR. Just raise the price for the bonus point and don't d%^k with everyones odds.

Spike elk hunts on the limited entry units is the dumbest thing I've heard yet. Where do they think these 350-500" bulls come from. Let's kill off tomorrow's crop of bulls so we can sell more tags today. I guess I'm glad I drew this year. You guys with max elk points are phukd.
 
I like the new rule that forbids getting a bonus point when you return a tag, unless due to active duty or injury.

I'm sick of the people who have a family member with max points just so they can climb halfway through the points every year.

I don't know about getting rid of group applicants though.

Grizzly
 
What about the mule deer??? Where is the help they need???

This whole proposal is a bunch of bull #####.

The Henry's and the Pauns. having management hunts??

What happened to growing a bigger piece of the pie so everyone can have a slice?? well it now looks like you can ge the crust you just can't have any filling.

BLOWN AWAY
 
I like the idea of haveing a managment deer hunt, this is something I have suggested for a couple years now, I dont know how they are planing on doing it, looks like it will be archery or muzzy hunt in november, I just wish they would do it in the bookcliffs to and not just on the pauns and henrys (dont know if the other units need it or not but the books really dose) I think it would be a great youth hunt.




Jake H. MM Member since 1999.
458738e374dfcb10.jpg
 
I think management hunts are great too! I hope to kill a 200" buck on the Henry's with a "broken" tine. It will be a great year when I can finally kill my elusive San Juan Spike elk too!

And to think I thought I did not have a chance to ever hunt the Henry's! What a waste. Just give more tags. Management hunts did not work for elk and won't work for deer either. You can not shoot out genetics. Genetics are carried by the does too.

The more I read all the proposals, the more appalled I am.

Good job DWR, you should all get a raise!
 
For my two cents worth, I am about ready to have the Dedicated Hunter Program Eliminated. First I must say that I have participated in it numerous times. The quality of the work projects have been outstanding and does some great value with the service provided by these dedicated hunters. HOWEVER, bottom line is: too many guys hunting the front late in the season when they have not killed with thier bows, muzzleloaders and rifels on any other unit/hunt. So they all move north for the final three weeks of deer hunting and the circus starts. I am soo ready to have guys pick their season and stick with one weapon choice hunts only. Let the bowhunters bowhunt, let the muzzleloader hunters pull out the long rifles and hunt. Let the Rifle hunters hunt. But make them choose and give them one choice! There have been too many guys out there with way outdated bows that dont know how to effectively and ethically use them. I've seen alot of dedicated hunters out bowhunting for the "first time in years" and their packing around out-of-date and questionable bows. Make's for a crowd in the hills with individuals who are "just kinfof" bowhunting as a last option because they can (through the dedicated program). What do you guys think?
 
I think I can agree as well as agree to disagree. I'll explain...I started bow hunting at age 13 in Utah and have killed a buck every year and have only lost 1 that was a good lung shot but because of very heavy rain and having to track it immediately, lost the trail and did circles for hours that day and the next. Over 10 bucks and lost one!! This is the first year I have ever in my life had or tried sites, a peep, or a release aid...shot them all instinctively up until this year. My dad hasn't bow hunted in 4 years (been muzzy past few) and has a bow you might call questionable at 90 lbs draw. I can guarantee you from learning instinctive shooting from him and seeing him get bucks my whole life that he can pick that thing up anytime and first buck he draws back on out to 70 yards is toast!! A couple of his hunting friends same thing. Brent R. Todd, a damn good wildlife artist, is one of them...guarantee some of you have his prints in your houses ;) Point is there are hunters out there still instinctively shooting better than some are with sites. The shooter always determines if a weapon hits its target ALWAYS!! Last option hunting can be a bad idea but there are some still very able to pull it off any day of the week.

Now vs what they are proposing yes everything else you said probably would be better because last time it was that way deer hunting in Utah was better than it is today.


I'm dumbfounded on reading this crap the DWR posted...


~Z~
 
I would like to see the dedicated hunter program go away or make them pick just 2 weapons. The deer herds do not need the most serious hunters getting a crack at them three times each year. It would "solve" the public perception of the southern archery hunt being overcrowded, I bet it would actually lower harvest stats as well. I would like to see a breakdown of the projects done each year. I sure know a bunch of guy's who file letters and deliver proclamations for their service. Not their fault but not real productive for the deer herd either??

I am sooo glad they are going to let all of us buy points for everything. That should make it way easier to draw a tag! Where did all these brilliant ideas come from?
 
Until a major group with power or someone with power pushes to get the mandated general rifle deer hunt date changed, then nothing will ever get better. It's very simple to change dates around to give more opportunity and quality for everyone but until that date can be changed we're just pi$$%%g in the wind. I also agree that the dedicated POACHER program does need to be changed or eliminated. I think a guaranteed tag for weapon of choice and region/unit for 8 hours of work per year would be sufficient, not all three. It's all a joke, but what can the average guy really do? We all know who has all the power in this state. The guy and group that made all the promises in the early 90's and 15+ years later our deer herd still sucks!
 
They have the proposed deer dates for the LE areas and one is a early rifle the first of october, if general season L. Does anyone know what general season L is?
 
I do know that they can now change the dates of the hunts around. They fixed it in the legislation this year I believe.

Also, we can make a difference. I just e-mailed all the rac members and Wildlife board memebrs. We must be vocal and must be respectfully heard. Do your part to help us fight these changes.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-08 AT 09:53AM (MST)[p]From 1 Feb to 15 Apr you have to have an authorization to collect sheds but any other time of the year you don't??

Why not make the authorization for any time?

Overall I like the changes they proposed for the bonus points and surrendering permits. Will keep some in check I believe and give everyone else a little better odds.

I also like the idea of giving you bonus or preference point for completing hunters safety but I think they need to take it a little further. How about a preference point for every successful completion and a bonus point for completion in the top 10% of an actual class (Not online)


?Here?s to the hero's that Git-R-Done!!?
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-08 AT 10:24AM (MST)[p]Luckyshot,

I think that there are also plenty of non dedicated archery hunters that use this hunt as a last opportunity.

I would also bet there are a lot of people that have went back to archery as their only weapon to take advantage of the extended seasons.

And yes there are also dedicated hunters that use this season as a last opportunity.

To suggest that people who pull older archery equipment out of their hunting gear are hurting the sport and then later suggest ML hunters pull out their long rifles (?primitive hunts w/no inline?) is a little out of balance.


?Here?s to the hero's that Git-R-Done!!?
 
All they needed to do was "Micro Manage" the state with small units and have everyone choose a little unit and thier wepon of choice. Instead, they propose to ruin the already poor quality of deer and deer hunting in Utah.
I give up.
 
Remember-- these are only proposals. All, none or part could be implemented. It really does depend on what the majority of the public wants.-- at least the majority that show up and voice their opinions.This will be a rough and tumble round of RAC meetings, but try to remember to be respectful but forthright with your views. I believe there is a lot of room for improvement-- especially with deer. I am still undecided on many of the proposals because I want to hear from as many hunters as possible. Being able to buy bonus points for every LE hunt doesn't really change anything-- if everyone buys a point, the odds pretty much stay the same it seems to me.
I do have to say this though-- Most of the DWR folks are hardworking and dedicated. They try to manage based on biology. But biologically-- there is a huge spectrum that goes from just enough to be viable to too many animals causing overcrowding and a rapid decline. I believe in many instances though that they have been too cautious for long periods of time in relation to deer herds. I also believe that most hunters that frequent certain areas have a better and more accurate count of how many deer are there. Hunters that have been around for a number of years know if there are more of less deer. Many of theses areas have not been impacted in any significant way by habitat loss either. I believe that micro-management of smaller units is needed. But, in connection with that, they also need to look at the total number of deer-- and if the unit is not at objective, all that can be done to increase the total number of animals on the unit must be done. Habitat improvement, more comprehensive predator control, habitat acquisition are all things that the DWR has listed as important methods to promote the growth and vitality of deer numbers. Make sure to voice your opinions and views.
 
Nebo, Anis himself admitted at the UBA meeting last week that many of the items being proposed are based on politics NOT biology. That is bad, bad, bad for wildlife! The DWR should stick to biology and let the public and conservation groups deal with the political side of wildlife management!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Pro-- you are right. However, there is large biological spectrum. Does Utah have to have as many deer as it does to keep herds viable? Of course we only need 5 bucks / 100 does biologically to maintain production. We don't need 40-50 bulls/ 100 cows either. I think you can see what I am getting at. Anis also has said that 5 day hunt vs 9 day hunt doesn't help that much to increase buck numbers. Dr. Wolf has stated that he can't tell for sure if cougars have a negative impact on deer numbers yet-- but he did say that if a herd in a particular area becomes severley depressed ( population ) that if there is a viable resident cougar population there, it will keep the herd depressed and will adversely affect any population growth. In fact, cougar depredation will almost certainly cause no increase in population growth even though habitat could easily support additional growth. Biological factors are important no doubt, but we are predators and a portion of us are very selective in what we want to harvest so that is why the DWR tries to manage deer and elk the way they do-- politics plays a part no doubt but it is because we hunt.
 
Where were the details of the ATV restriction proposal? Couldn't find them and after this rifle hunt I would really welcome a little bit of restrictions on those things.


?Here?s to the hero's that Git-R-Done!!?
 
The ATV restrictions was something that was discussed by the Mule Deer Committee. The info. I first recieved from one of the Mule Deer Committee members indicated that there would be some type of proposal restricting ATV use. However, I don't see any mention of that in the proposals either. I do believe that it is an issue that needs to be addressed, but it is an issue that will take a combined effort of all groups including Forest Service, BLM, counties etc.
 
I have been on the OHV committee for the last 6 months that includes the DWR, Forest Service, BLM, special interest groups, and we really got nowhere as far as what to address these issues. Until the different agencies can agree on issues and work WITH each other this problem will get worse.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Pro- keep pounding on it. I think that if the Forest Service, BLM, etc. would authorize local law enforcement to help enforce ATV laws it would help. Sounds as though they all might be concerned about their "territory", that they aren't able to come to some meaningful solutions. ATV use needs to be curtailed especially during hunting seasons.
 
>Remember-- these are only proposals. All,
>none or part could be
>implemented. It really does depend
>on what the majority of
>the public wants.-- at least
>the majority that show up
>and voice their opinions.>


I don't mean to be a pessimist or a jerk, but apparently you forgot about the "proposed" Expo tags and how well public opinion was taken into account during the RAC meetings...
 
Sometimes money trumps majority opinion-- unfortunately. That is where politics in the management of deer is hard to justify in a responsible manner.
 
>Sometimes money trumps majority opinion-- unfortunately.
>That is where politics in
>the management of deer is
>hard to justify in a
> responsible manner.


Absolutely...well said nebo.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-22-08 AT 03:50PM (MST)[p]Oh! No? the ATV thing again?

Ya know this year, I seen a lot of quads in the southern section, lots of quads, yet I did not see one quad off road that a truck or jeep could not traverse. Not one, quads are here, get over it! Compound bows with sights are here? get over it?. ? In line? muzzleloaders, with scopes are here?. Build a bridge and get over it.
 
Perfect. The archery hunt is still early, they are trying to take away the state wide option, they are opening up spike units everywhere. I haven't seen much thats going to help the northern deer herd. Hey, I have an idea, lets make a bad situation worse. Perfect.
 
MacV,

I know the whole ATV thing is an issue that most of us are tired of hearing. With most issues they have to reach that point before improvements can be made.

Consider yourself lucky to not deal with what I had to deal with on the part of the South Eastern I hunted on.

I would get over it had they stuck on the roads like you experienced. The problem is every ridge I spent time on had ATV and even TRUCK tracks on the edge of the ridge FAR from the designated road/trail down that ridge.

Heck, personally I don't want to lose the ability to use my ATV as a hunting tool but I am dang tired of keeping mine on the road/trail, hiking to where I want to be, only to find ATV or Trucks or the tracks that they left.

Last evening after I hiked 1/2 mile from the road to glass a draw to the south of me I had a truck with 3 hunters pass me on the way out, tooling through the brush. They weren't happy when I snapped a picture of the front of their truck as they passed by I can tell you that.

Had I remembered my camera I could have taken pictures of two other ATVs doing the same thing through my spotting scope on earlier days.


?Here?s to the hero's that Git-R-Done!!?
 
Enforcement may be the key to keeping ATV's where they are authorized to be. I own ATV's but we all certainly need to use them only on established routes.
 
I actually agree with some of their reccomendations for once.

I have been seeing more and more ATV trail closures.Now with a little enforcement we'll be headed in the right direction.

Mike
 
I like the part where they said satisfaction was high with hunters I think they are lying about that. They should also do away with the buck-bull tag I think it ruins the hunt for the general rifle it is to close together. I actually wish they would shut down hunting in Northern Utah for at least two years or parts of it so the deer herds have a chance to make a come back and make it so hunters can shoot one deer either sex in areas where deprivation is heavy it would take some stress off of the younger bucks and still manage the heard I really wish they would cut back on tags in northern section of the state. One thing i didn't notice was them talking about a predator control program I know the Wasatch needs one right now it has large population of cats for the area I think they need a stronger management plan for cats and dogs personally I have seen a pack of yotes kill a fawn last winter so it does happen. I doubt anything positive will happen for deer In Utah general areas the dwr doesn't have the money or control it needs to give a honest effort at effectively managing deer. Until hunters start asking for quality over quantity and the revenue generated off of tags are handled better (slush funds) nothing will change it will just get worse. pretty soon we will be asking how to save the mule deer population not how to hunt them
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-24-08 AT 09:35AM (MST)[p]utahelkoholic-- i havent personally hunted the northern buck/bull combo, but in my opinion it really seems to help the crowding of hunters. lets face it elk hunters are going to be covering the area anyways spooking all the animals. i have seen it first hand on the elk hunt and then on the deer hunt the last two years. btw i hunt NE and frequent some northern areas during the elk season. we usually camp close to two roads that lead into northern region so we pretty much see how many hunters are frequenting these areas. it was packed full during the elk hunt and not so bad on the deer hunt. saw some decent bucks come out on both hunts.
 
I love the idea of micro-managing, its something this state needs desperately.

As for the buying points for every species, ill bet it passes just because we as hunters who want to hunt everything we can will have to buy points just to keep up with everyone else. So they'll do it because they can and it won't effect populations and the dwr will get more money! I hate this ludacrous idea of buying points.
 
I live in southern utah but for generations my family has hunted near fillmore. It's all in the southern unit. The winters, predetors, elk whatever are completly different there than they are further south. This year was the worst year i have ever experinced up there for the rifle hunt but down south it was going off from what it sounds. I think every area needs to be handled differently.

As far as the ATV's i use one but i stay on the trails and the only time i use it is when its dark the rest of the time it's foot. I'm so tired of seeing wheelers posted on every flippin knoll trying to get a shot at the nest buck that walks by. In fact i would love to see more area designated as wilderness area in the state. Big gulps huh?!
 

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