POOR MANAGEMENT SHOWING!!!

elkassassin

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
36,962
Any Hunter/Sportsman that Spends any time at all in the Field could see this coming!

Our LE Elk Units have taken one HELL of a Hit with POOR Management the last few years!

Yes,Hurry & Blame the Drought!

I Agree,The Drought sure the HELL Ain't Helped anything!

But there's more to it than that!

Slaughtering Cows in LE Units,JUDAS!

Slaughtering Spikes in LE Units,Our Future Big Bulls,GEEZUS!

Adding Permits!

Adding Hunts!

Hunting them Non-Stop for Months with No Relaxation on the Herds!

Money Rules & Average Joe BLow Ain't gonna compete with that!

There's alot of STUPID Management going on & it's Showing up Big Time this year!

You Might wanna take a look at the Big Picture!

Not just the Small Hand Full of 380"+ Bulls that were taken this year!

I Know Several Hunters that came out of the Book Cliffs with an Attitude And/Or a Bull that wasn't what they were looking for!

You Think it was PISS POOR this year?

Wait till next year!

Wait for another Month or two & You'll see Elk Slaughters like you've never seen in the Lower ground/Farm Lands!

Anyway!

Anybody that had LE Elk Permits this Year(And Yes I know they're still going!) Chime in & let us know what it looked like on the Unit you were Hunting!

The Fix Won't be Quick!

(((If there is one?)))

It took several years to get to where we are now!

It'll take a Hell of alot longer to Fix the Problems!

Sure as Hell Hoping we are not in another Drought this next year!

It Ain't the Only Problem!

But the DWR will use Drought as the only Problem!

When in Fact it is PISS POOR MANAGEMENT at it's Best!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Hey don't worry it's Utah. They got this. Maybe Utah could share their secrets of success with Colorado about fisheries and Colorado could share about big game?

"Courage is being scared to death but
saddling up anyway."
 
If utah wasn't where I grew up hunting, all my family and some friends there. I wouldn't waste the money or time applying or hunting there. It's more of an experience with family and friends than actually hunting. Sure the hope is to find what I'm looking for in a buck or bull but I can look at 320 bulls in nd whenever I want and the deer here are better but drawing tags here sucks.

4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
Bess, Everything you said is exactly right. So what do you and everyone else do about it? The DWR is just laughing all the way to the bank. They know we would rather fight each other than take them on. Just like every other government agency, they've made it pretty much impossible to hold them accountable for what they do. RAC meetings are a dog and pony show that do absolutely nothing.

I see the upcoming general rifle elk hunt as a potential tipping point for these policies. My Guess and we may never know exactly, the DWR increased revenue on elk tags around 50% or more from the Multi Season Tag. Almost everyone I know who hunt elk purchased one. The rifle elk hunt is already the most crowded season on our local mountains. This year will smash anything we've ever seen before. The last few years have proved that hunters spend more time playing strategy games with other hunters than actual hunting. They're talking about selling multi season tags for deer just the same (different than dedicated hunter). Hopefully hunters will recognize the circus they've been duped into and do something about it. When you find out the best way to do something about it, please let us know.
 
One thing that could happen and should happen mainly on the San juan unit is that we need to increase the proposed elk population from 1000 head to 2000 head of elk. IF we could push more projects on the elk ridge part of the unit creating more winter habitat, rather than millions of acres of cedar trees we could easily sustain a bigger herd.
 
I drew a Manti muzzleloader tag this year and spent almost every weekend this summer up there scouting. Not a day of scouting went by that I didn't see elk, I found a few herds of 200+. I personally saw more than 15 350" plus bulls and know of at least 10 others from people sharing pictures with me. These were all seen from roads without hiking more than 100 yards from the 4-wheeler. I ended up getting a 5 point but had some missed opportunities at a few good size 6 points, one of which was easily over 370". I can't speak for the other LE units but I had a great experience on Manti this year.
 
I personally saw more than 15 350" plus bulls and know of at least 10 others from people sharing pictures with me. These were all seen from roads without hiking more than 100 yards from the 4-wheeler. I ended up getting a 5 point but had some missed opportunities at a few good size 6 points, one of which was easily over 370". I can't speak for the other LE units but I had a great experience on Manti this year.

So with that information wouldn't you have shot a big bull then? Your information makes it sound like there was big bulls everywhere, right off the road, so many that I only shot a 5 point bull. Maybe there is some more to your story that I am missing, like you dont have the ability to get around so this is what you shot. Or maybe this 5 point bull is huge and you couldn't pass it because it is awesome bull.

I dont mean to rag on you or anything, but its like when someone tells you they seen a huge buck, so you ask specifics like how many points did it have, and did it have eyeguards, did he have good tine length, but most people will just respond it was huge by showing with there hands how wide it was, but cant tell you a single thing about the buck. I find that most hunters dont know the difference between a 320 bull and a 350 bull, a 350 bull and a 400 inch bull.
 
>
>I personally saw more than 15
>350" plus bulls and know
>of at least 10 others
>from people sharing pictures with
>me. These were all seen
>from roads without hiking more
>than 100 yards from the
>4-wheeler. I ended up getting
>a 5 point but had
>some missed opportunities at a
>few good size 6 points,
>one of which was easily
>over 370". I can't speak
>for the other LE units
>but I had a great
>experience on Manti this year.
>
>
>So with that information wouldn't you
>have shot a big bull
>then? Your information makes
>it sound like there was
>big bulls everywhere, right off
>the road, so many that
>I only shot a 5
>point bull. Maybe there
>is some more to your
>story that I am missing,
>like you dont have the
>ability to get around so
>this is what you shot.
> Or maybe this 5
>point bull is huge and
>you couldn't pass it because
>it is awesome bull.
>
>I dont mean to rag on
>you or anything, but its
>like when someone tells you
>they seen a huge buck,
>so you ask specifics like
>how many points did it
>have, and did it have
>eyeguards, did he have good
>tine length, but most people
>will just respond it was
>huge by showing with there
>hands how wide it was,
>but cant tell you a
>single thing about the buck.
> I find that most
>hunters dont know the difference
>between a 320 bull and
>a 350 bull, a 350
>bull and a 400 inch
>bull.

Obviously finding elk while scouting before the hunts start is a whole different animal than finding them during the hunt. I was responding to the OP that believes that hardly any good bulls exist on the LE units anymore. And that very well may be the case, I've never stepped foot on San Juan or any of the other LE units this season so I can't speak for them. I'm just sharing what Manti has been like for me this season. And when I say I saw them right off the road, I don't mean they were right off the road and next to me, most of them I spotted with my binos and zoomed in with the spotter and were sometimes a mile or more away from me across a ridge or two. I meant I didn't have to hike for miles just to see some, I could see them from the road.

As far as my hunt goes, I shot my five point for a lot of reasons, the main one being that we called him into 15 yards and he was screaming his head off. It was the coolest experience I've ever had hunting. I'm young but I also have a total hip replacement so my leg was getting pretty tired from hiking in and out of the steep canyons the elk like to hang out in. Before that, I blew some chances at some nice 6 points. I didn't have any expectations of being able to find and shoot some of the bigger ones that I had seen while scouting. I have no idea what the archery or rifle hunts would do to them, where they would go to rut, or if the fires had pushed them around.

If I get a minute I'll try to figure out how to post a few photos of the bulls I had seen scouting. Some of them I might not have permission to post but in the mean time you can browse around gooch's guide service instagram. All those bulls come off of Manti.
 
And you'll remember that hunt and the way he cranked up everytime you look at him.

That alone is the experience UT gives right now for the few who draw tags. You can go to every western state that has RM elk and shoot a 350"+ bull...
 
Definitely! If I was a NR, the only reason I would come to hunt elk in Utah is if a drew a LE tag, why would I buy an archery tag in Utah when I could get one in Idaho that runs through the rut? The surrounding states just have better OTC hunting than we have here in UT. It's a shame cause it doesn't have to be that way.
 
The Book Cliffs was the toughest year I have ever experienced out there in my entire life. My Good Friend had a LE Archery Elk Tag and went home empty handed. He had 1 chance in 10 days and it was a very rushed chance. The weather was Hotter and Drier than I have ever seen. It was so hot that I think the Elk went into survival mode and never wanted to move for fear of dying of Thirst let alone running around bugling and breeding. Only heard 2 different Bulls Bugle. Saw 2 spring dry up that in 40 years I have never seen dry. The one chance we had was because we were able to Spot the Bull feeding way down a ridge and was almost able to pull off a spot and stalk. It was a Very Very Tough year for the Archery Hunt.
 
100 percent agree. I cashed over 20 years on books. The cows and spike hunts have ruined this unit. Bad mistake to cash in here.
 
Had the Dutton tag this year. Quality is down but it seems the bull numbers are up. Biggest issue is the cameras. Anything that resembles water has multiple cameras. Pretty tough for the average Joe anymore.
 
I've seen 5 bulls over 320 on the Wasatch in the last week that nobody with a muzzleloader was chasing. I wasn?t even in ?elky? country.

I wonder if people think that drawing an LE tag is supposed to be a ?chip shot??

I'm just asking. That's all. Just because someone shot a 385 bull in a drainage in 2013 and there isn't one that big this year doesn't mean the DNR is out to get you, does it? Like I said I'm just asking.

On my Fishlake hunt I thought that the private land is sure was way more a factor than overall elk numbers. I also think that the overall lack of game plan and effort by the tag holders I ran into were a huge factor in them being successful.

On the Fishlake the average bull shot is 6.2 years old. What more do you really want? That's the average. That takes into account all the younger bulls that get shot buy a trigger happy hunter.

What are the realistic expectations? I know of nowhere where when a tag is issued that it comes with an inch or size guarantee.

Could it be that you just aren't looking in the right places? I see both sides but people can't complain about point creep and then complain about too many elk getting killed.

Besides, there's probably enough people who enjoy killing cows and spikes who really don't care about this conversation.

How many dudes with spike tags are going to let a spike walk because they are concerned about a bull tag holder 5 years down the road?

My brother in law is a game warden. He sees both sides too. However, when the biologist says the herd is over objective then they gotta kill cows. When they are trying to prevent overcrowding in a hunt, they create the mid season in order to push more guys through the system and still offer chances at a nice mature bull.

Considering the weather and fires, I haven't seen much for any tag holder to complain about is all I'm saying.

"That's a special feeling, Lloyd!?

www.s2outdoor.com
www.tojagrid.com
 
Shut the whole state down and let this assassin dude have every mtn to himself, that way he will feel like he got his moneys worth! :)
 
>Shut the whole state down and
>let this assassin dude have
>every mtn to himself, that
>way he will feel like
>he got his moneys worth!
>:)


Funny Yote Chaser!

Let's just do this:

When Top End Bulls in LE Units are down to 320" PISSCUTTERS!

You Can Have My F'N Points!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
>Definitely! If I was a NR,
>the only reason I would
>come to hunt elk in
>Utah is if a drew
>a LE tag, why would
>I buy an archery tag
>in Utah when I could
>get one in Idaho that
>runs through the rut? The
>surrounding states just have better
>OTC hunting than we have
>here in UT. It's a
>shame cause it doesn't have
>to be that way.

Nice bull by the way - saw your pics on the other forum.
 
There is no reason I can think of that makes it right to call anyone names like this on the website.

If you don't agree then say so but making the site combative is what is ruining it.
 
I would like to read through a thread without having to read elk boys crying and razzin comment on pretty much every thread on this site.
 
>I would like to read through
>a thread without having to
>read elk boys crying and
>razzin comment on pretty much
>every thread on this site.
>


I do agree 100% with this comment.
 
Lots of things to consider this year on the LE we were on. I know drought had an affect on the mtn we hunted. Still some good bulls to be had but antler growth did suffer some. We killed a nice bull, but the rut activity was slow. But another real threat to hunters is the cattlemen. until the dirtbag rancher stops setting our elk quotas it wont change. If you think cattleman are great guys you are wrong they are the real wolf in sheeps clothing. The feed was pathetic. They should have been kicked off that mtn. I'm sick and tired of the rancher thinking beef is the only thing that matters and grazing for pennies on the dollar on land we pay into as well.


"We don't have a gun problem we have prescription drug problem."
 
Let's just all have some composure and keep the swear words out of the equation. Good people have left this site because of issues like this. They were good guys and had some great posts but left because of the combative situation that has taken over the site.

At the end of the day we are all interested in the same thing Hunting and Fishing and to that we should remain vigil.
 
While the numbers are still down.

I must say, the quality is way up this year. I must be seeing different things from others. I don't think the drought had a negative impact on antler growth. I have seen bigger bulls (both elk and moose) and bigger bucks on average.

I think Stu made some great points.

Though I do believe there are other solutions to the issues we have.
 
I simply don't believe the limited entry units are down. Yes I do believe the overall elk numbers are over
Objective in this state. Yes I do believe the biologists. I also have eyes and spend an obscene amount of time
On the mountains. Numerous units.

The scores on bulls have definitely declined. But that's simply a symptom. It's proof that you can't have that many big bulls running around on a unit. They peak and then it crashes. It?ll
Peak again. And crash again.

Get the rifle hunt out of the rut. The reason the rifle hunt is in the rut is so those tags can fetch premium dollar.

I am positive I'll get called a stick flipper in 3...2...1....
 
>I simply don't believe the limited
>entry units are down. Yes
>I do believe the overall
>elk numbers are over
>Objective in this state. Yes I
>do believe the biologists. I
>also have eyes and spend
>an obscene amount of time
>
>On the mountains. Numerous units.
>
>The scores on bulls have definitely
>declined. But that's simply a
>symptom. It's proof that you
>can't have that many big
>bulls running around on a
>unit. They peak and then
>it crashes. It?ll
>Peak again. And crash again.
>
>Get the rifle hunt out of
>the rut. The reason the
>rifle hunt is in the
>rut is so those tags
>can fetch premium dollar.
>
>I am positive I'll get called
>a stick flipper in 3...2...1....
>

OK D!

I Mean You StickFlipper!:D

You'd Best Re-Think When You Say You Don't Think LE Units are Down!

Because Several of them are in Fact Down!

Once again,One More Person Blaming Rifle Hunters for the Peak of the Rut in LE Units,When in Fact The SmokePolers had the Best Shot at the Rut in Most LE Units this year!

Archery Hunters used to Get Most/First part of the Rut!

Now They're Quick to Piss & Moan about the Rifle Hunters!

Some of you shoulda got out a little more than you did this year!

Now I Like the Hell out of you DC!

But there's more to the Big Picture than Rifle Hunters in the Rut!

And I'm a StickFlipper too!

It's just a Slang Name I Use for Archery Hunters & No Offense to anybody!















I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Not Trying to Make You Mad Dconcrete!

But Here's My Question on a Unit that's Close Enough to Home that You should know the Answer:

Do You Think the LE Wasatch is above Objectives?

Do You Think The Wasatch is Down?

Do You Think Cow Elk Numbers are up on the Wasatch?

Do You Think Spike Numbers are up on the Wasatch?

Do You Think Big Bull Numbers are Up on the Wasatch?

Why TF would anybody wanna Kill Spikes on LE Units when they are Our Future Big Bulls?











I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Not directed at me, but

?Why TF would anybody wanna Kill Spikes on LE Units when they are Our Future Big Bulls??....because they can.

You think the average joe would go buy a spike tag and not shoot one if it's withun range?

The overall vast majority of people who pull the trigger or release an arrow don't care about somebody they don't know with a tag 5 years down the road.

They just want to kill an elk.

The major issue to all this to me is the vast tracts of private land that hold the states animals hostage and are unavailable to the average hunter.

A biologist himself told me if he wants to go do an easy cow to calf ratio count he heads to the cwmu in the area, not the public ground.



"That's a special feeling, Lloyd!?

www.s2outdoor.com
www.tojagrid.com
 
Hey Stu?

You Don't Think Killing Spikes in LE Units hasn't taken it's Toll?

Please Talk with Most Hunters that Hunted the Book Cliffs this Year!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Were they not killing spikes on the Fishlake and Wasatch from 2000-2010? They were and those unit produced a large amount of bulls and some very large ones during that time. Also, they cut the rifle spike hunt off the Monroe and still people are complaining about quality. Not trying to be a smart *** as you put it on my last post, just a different opinion. I am very much in the opportunity crowd and have been frustrated watching the state cater to all the trophy hunters and make everything about antler size.
 
I've never even been to the book cliffs. I do know they shoot spikes on the Manti, Fishlake, nebo, and Wasatch.

I'm not a biologist but find me a place that has been a historically good mule deer area that stays that way when lots of elk move in. The Missouri River breaks is a prime example.

Do some units get spike hunted harder than others? I don't know.

All I know is that if a person had a Wasatch limited elk tag this fall and was complaining about lack of quality or quantity then they need to sell thier vortex glass and get some from Austria, not complain about the DNR. I know three muzzleloader tags that go eaten last night at dark and it had everything to do with work schedules and thier ability to use a wind checker than how many spikes had been killed.

And that's even taking into account that the whole diamond fork area has been off limits.

Lots of good bulls coming off the Manti this year.



"That's a special feeling, Lloyd!?

www.s2outdoor.com
www.tojagrid.com
 
Ok here's an idea let's cut tags so only a few people can hunt every year! That's sounds like a great idea. People are already waiting 20+ years on some units. WHATS ANOTHER 20. None of our kids need to hunt anyhow. You piss and moan that you can't draw a tag year after year then in the next sentence complain there are too many tags! Make up your goddam mind
 
I'm not sure about others but I shoot those spikes on the LE unit because they are as delicious as the ones on the open bull units! I love to observe elk all things elk related. A Limited entry area allows me to do this more frequently and still have a chance at some excellent table fare. I'm one of the lowly "stick flippers" as well, and in most cases a spike is also a little easier recovery than a big bull so that also is a motivating factor. With the warm weather you need to get them out asap.
 
Elk. I'm with ya. I'm the Dipsh(&
You and my father in law came to see. Opening archery.

I will attest to what you say. The spike and cow hunts are pulverizing the books. I cashed in 22 years on the unit. Spent 30 days down there total hunting. Ran 12 trail cams for 3 months.

Kinda funny.... in all that time, I had one pic of a poor spike. And during hunting I saw 2 spikes. Maybe all the spikes are dead cuz a cow hunter shot their mother while she was pregnant.

I've been on many, many books elk hunts over the years with friends and family. Many hunts. Not to mention all winter out there killing coyotes. I'm here to tell you past 5 years the decline in the herd down there is scary. The number of bulls are way down, so basically every 290-315 incher is gettin shot not having a chance to grow up.
The spike and cow hunts are catching up to the unit. But it's all about money. Excuse after excuse to keep issuing more. That poor elk herd is shot at from aug till December.

Elkissassin : I ended up eating my tag. Overall saw maybe 8-10 bulls that?d make 300. Saw 4 bulls that's make 320.
And saw two bulls that?d go 340+, both of which were miles in away from any road. Those are legit estimates. Not jo blos 290 bull he claims as 340. Tried for the 340+. But couldn't get it done. Then couldn't bring myself to shoot a pud just to fill my tag. Did get some cool up close video of those smaller bulls screaming, as close as 10 feet away. Plus got to spend a lot of time with my dad and boys.
 
First of all cat, I'm not offended buddy. Here?s the truth....people can disagree and still be friends.

I don't agree with the premise that the units are down. And allow me to explain my rifle comment.

I never said that the rifle hunting is to blame. I fully support every hunter out there. Hounds, bait, bowhunt, rifle, high fence. I support it all.

My statements regarding getting the rifle out of the rut is driven by the simple fact that 1. You do have almost 100% success on a lot of units during those hunts. 2. You can move more people through the point system AND kill
Less animals through archery. Those are just basic facts. You could issue a lot more tags and kill less. That's a win win in my book. People get the chances.

3. Utah?s population is sky rocketing. And will continue to do so. Of those
People, there is percentage that are hunters that want in on the game too.

Here?s my basic stance on hunting:

Folks, it is dying. Despite draw odds, hunter numbers are in decline. Talk about all the people you saw during the hunts all you want. But the facts are the facts.

People, most notably children, will not be interested in hunting if #1 they don't get to do it and #2 they don't get to experience success. I kill a couple
Of elk yearly with my bow. And my funnest times have been plugging a spike or a cow with my son.

The very fact that he killed his first elk with a bow at 13 with me by his side
Trumps any big bull hunt I've had. And that particular year, I had a big bull tag in my pocket.

The spike and cow hunts are what we have for elk hunting. And I am sorry if my stance will ?forbid? you from
Shooting a 400? bull. But opportunity, especially in today?s day and age, is what'll keep these wheels spinning.

And the survival of hunting and the outdoors trumps your hunt to go and pass on 40 different bulls.

Now, with all of that, no I still don't believe the limited entries are hurting bad.

And to suggest that I spend more time
outdoors shows just a bit of ignorance on your end. And yes I know the books well.
 
Seriously Dconcrete!

If You Don't Think The Book Cliffs has been on a steady Fall the Last Few Years You Don't get out there much!

It's Showing Big Time this year!

And I'm Not BS'ing You Either!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
You do not know the books well if you say it isn't hurting. I'm not speaking at the state or all units. Books is only unit I know. I'm saying the bookcliffs are pitiful. I've had the opportunity to hunt it many times. Not just my opinion, but some of the best elk hunters in the state agree. Hunters that live down there basically. It's the back yard.
Sad day coming out last week. Not a campin spot left in the middle. Let the young bull slaughter begin.
It isn't opinion. It's fact. The spike and cow hunts have ruined the books. I'm not blaming the concept of spike and cow hunts. I'm just saying it has gotten out of control.
 
+10000 elk.

It's sad. I guess I see the opposite of these folks concerning youth. Of course our youth is a concern. That's the most important thing. But, what their doing to the books, I said books (can't speak to others) is eliminating the opportunity for the youth to harvest a nice bull. I'm speaking for my kids. They have zero desire to harvest a cow or spike. They get their shooting fix on coyotes and ducks and varmits. Not saying I'm better than you, just saying my background. Just because the state makes it legal don't necessarily mean it's for the best of the game. My humble opinion is not enough people think long term, big picture.
All I say is thank god waterfowl is federal and not state. This state would open a hen mallard hunt in the spring. Object would be to shoot the babies off their nest.
As far as the uintah mountains, I also say thank god for Indian lAnd. If it weren't for Indian land, elk would be extinct up there.
 
Well then by God, let's go down the items one by one. The books are showing a massive decline this year. And it's all because of the cow and spike hunts....forgive me for asking, but what happened to all the bulls that weren't spikes from last year? What happened to all the spikes that made it last year?

What happened to all the raghorns that?ll be growing? Last year, the year before, the year before that? You know, the elk that are off limits except for to t he people who have a big bull
Tag? Where?d they disappear to?

Best elk hunters in the state huh? The best ones live right there? And they all agree? Tell me, who might these fine folks be?

Your boys don't want to shoot a cow or a spike? Mine don't want to shoot ducks or Varmints because we strictly archery hunt. So.....that?d be a ridiculous, ludicrous, and quite frankly pointless statement there Russell.

And the Indian land is what saves the elk in the uintahs? Does the great state of Wyoming get any credit for shooting the ##### out of that herd on the north slopes? Or does that slaughter solely belong to Utah?

And by the way, the books is the only unit where general archery elk hunters can't shoot cows like they can on the other units. Yes I fully understand that there are antlerless hunts that take place on the books. Just wanted to clarify for those who don't know.

And for the record, why do I support cow and spike hunts? Because it's what we have currently.

Because actually learning how to hunt elk has allowed me to actually get my bull. And not walk out with my head down crying that the state hosed me.
 
Anybody who says the indians are our savior need to remember not that long ago they were rounding up elk and selling them.

Get a clue.





How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 
I'm not here to argue. My bad. I reread what I wrote. Came off crass. Likely lots of folks that don't agree with things I do. I said I think they are overdoing it on those hunts down there. I believe in opportunity, we agree there. I just feel like it's gotten too far as far as how many are killed. And I'm not talking about just this year. It's a steady decline the past several years, a process that's caught up. Less spikes, over time it catches up to less bulls. Maybe I'm wrong. But, is the unit declining or not? I say it is. If it is than why is it?
The other problem down there is it's over grazed. Between cattle, horses, Buffalo.
So maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it is a combination of several things. Just a shame as it used to be a top unit.
 
Gees treed. They rounded some up years ago and only sold them once, and most of them escaped. The state went to the tribe and told them they needed to kill 1200 to 1500 cows off tribal lands this past year and the tribe told them to bit the big one. Thank god they did cause oh boy we wouldn't have any elk left. Good thing the state doesn't manage U&O lands.
 
Hey Dconcrete?

Unless You've Experienced or Participated or been in the Book Cliffs when that CLUSTERPHUK Of a Spike Hunt is Taking Place You Might wanna check it out First Hand!

AKA Killin the Future Big Bulls!

Grand F'N Central Station,JUDAS!

I'm Surprised a few of the LE Permit Holders that ended up Taking PISSCUTTERS or going Home Empty haven't CHIMED in on this Thread!

They F'D the Deer Herd Up out there!

Now They've F'D the Elk Herd Up out there!

And YES!

Killing Spikes & Cows has been the Biggest Factor!

Let Me Add GREED & F'N Money to the List as well!

It's Working Right in to their Hands Though!

Yes We have a Drought taking Place!

But The Drought didn't Decimate these Herds!
















I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
They Took Care of the Fish Lake Unit once!

And How about the Wasatch?







I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
>
>They Took Care of the Fish
>Lake Unit once!
>
>And How about the Wasatch?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I know so many people in
>so many places
>They make allot of money but
>they got sad faces
>
>It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D

Bessy,

You know as many do that I have been very vocal about the Wasatch.

But I can say without a doubt, that this year has been a banner year for the wasatch.

I have seen more cows and spike than I have seen in years. The quality of big bulls is up as well.
 
>>
>>They Took Care of the Fish
>>Lake Unit once!
>>
>>And How about the Wasatch?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>I know so many people in
>>so many places
>>They make allot of money but
>>they got sad faces
>>
>>It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
>
>Bessy,
>
>You know as many do that
>I have been very vocal
>about the Wasatch.
>
>But I can say without a
>doubt, that this year has
>been a banner year for
>the wasatch.
>
>I have seen more cows and
>spike than I have seen
>in years. The quality of
>big bulls is up as
>well.

Yes DBG!

I'm Talking the Part of the Wasatch you do not Hunt!











I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-08-18 AT 12:50PM (MST)[p]Wanna hear from someone who basically lives on the Books? Here you go.

It's a #### show. The spike hunt has absolutely destroyed the unit. The age class is crashing. The overall herd is crashing. Where are all the raghorns from last year that should be bigger? They were killed as raghorns last year because folks couldn't do better. Where are the spikes that survived last year? They didnt survive because they were all slaughtered.

Other units can sustain the spike hunt, the books can not. I spend a ridiculous amount of time on the Books, every year, year round. Anybody that spends a fair amount of time there can see what's happening.

You wanna know the only thing harder to find on the books than the quality of animals it used to produce? A biologist. Haven't seen one for several years out there. That's hundreds of days, all times of the year, and haven't seen a single biologist(you know, the guys that are supposed to be making scientific recommendations on the management of our herds). That's likely because they are managing the herds based off a bank account rather than science. It's always how they can sell more tags, make more hunts. It's never cut tags. I'm tired of revenue being disguised as opportunity.

A spike or cow hunt should be used as a method to decrease the overall herd numbers. We're a long ways from needing to reduce the herd numbers. If the other areas in the state are doing good with the spike hunt, that's great. But it's time to shut down this disaster on the Books. While we're at it, let's cut the buck tags and move some buck tags to management tags.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Oct-08-18
>AT 12:50?PM (MST)
>
>Wanna hear from someone who basically
>lives on the Books? Here
>you go.
>
>It's a #### show. The spike
>hunt has absolutely destroyed the
>unit. The age class is
>crashing. The overall herd is
>crashing. Where are all the
>raghorns from last year that
>should be bigger? They were
>killed as raghorns last year
>because folks couldn't do better.
>Where are the spikes that
>survived last year? They didnt
>survive because they were all
>slaughtered.
>
>Other units can sustain the spike
>hunt, the books can not.
>I spend a ridiculous amount
>of time on the Books,
>every year, year round. Anybody
>that spends a fair amount
>of time there can see
>what's happening.
>
>You wanna know the only thing
>harder to find on the
>books than the quality of
>animals it used to produce?
>A biologist. Haven't seen one
>for several years out there.
>That's hundreds of days, all
>times of the year, and
>haven't seen a single biologist(you
>know, the guys that are
>supposed to be making scientific
>recommendations on the management of
>our herds). That's likely
>because they are managing the
>herds based off a bank
>account rather than science. It's
>always how they can sell
>more tags, make more hunts.
>It's never cut tags. I'm
>tired of revenue being disguised
>as opportunity.
>
>A spike or cow hunt should
>be used as a method
>to decrease the overall herd
>numbers. We're a long ways
>from needing to reduce the
>herd numbers. If the
>other areas in the state
>are doing good with the
>spike hunt, that's great. But
>it's time to shut down
>this disaster on the Books.
>While we're at it, let's
>cut the buck tags and
>move some buck tags to
>management tags.


I agree with a lot of what you said. But I honestly dont think or believe they are managing the herds by the bank account. I fully believe it is managed by few special interest groups. NOT SFW OR anyone like that. The elk are managed by the Houndsman and the cattleman.

Anytime you go to a meeting, who has the loudest voice? Who complains more (than the hunters)?

The houndsman say there are not enough cougars or bears and that we are killing them all off. (Even though this year they finally raised the bear permits). And this year while baiting for my bear, I had no idea that there were that many bears in a given area. Each cam I had up on my bait sights had 5 different bears on 1 and 7 on the other. To me that is crazy.

You ask the cattleman, and there isnt any feed on the free range out there and that we need to get rid of half the elk. B.S.!!! If the range is as bad as it is right now, why on Gods green earth are the cattle still up on the mountains?

So when these groups speak, they listen. Too many ELK??? Hell, lets kill them. Lets give out 786 more elk tags on the units. Lets go unlimited cow elk archery tags and then thousands of rifle tags and lets hunt them from Aug 1 to Feb 1, because that doesnt push them off to the private land at all!!! LOL!!! Then we get to hear all the land owners complain, but then ask to hunt those elk and its $500. Well, like me, the average Joe Hunter doesnt have $500 bucks for a cow tag. Sorry!
 
"I'm tired of revenue being disguised as opportunity."

^^^ That is probably the Best Description I have Heard in Regards to Opportunity ^^^

It is Very Frustrating that someone compares The Wasatch Unit or the Manti Unit to the Book Cliffs Unit as if it were Apples to Apples to Apples...

The Deer act different on the Book Cliffs then the do up to Strawberry. Same with the Elk. It's just 2 totally different places and to think you can do the same things in both places is just ridiculous management.
 
The houndsmen have the smallest voice, they're just some of the most dedicated.
The Book Cliffs deer and elk herd are definitely not in bad shape because of the bears or lions. There are substantially less cats on the unit than there were 10 years ago, but the deer and elk are continuing to decline.
 
It took a fair bit of griping, complaining, and in some cases contention, but the Wasatch got sorted out with a combined effort between concerned sportsmen and the division. It's in a good place now with increased opportunity, reasonable quality, and a decent future in place. We?d like to not repeat the mistakes of the past so I doubt ridiculous tag increases will happen any time soon.

Change can happen but it takes time and no shortage of concerned hunters being very vocal


https://www.facebook.com/strawberrybayoutfitters
 
Whiskydog:

Couldn?t have said it any better. It's sad. Like you said... ?where are all the raghorns from previous years?. They all have been shot with no other bulls to grow up to replace them, cuz they were all shot as spikes.
About 2012 or so it started tanking. Past 5 years it's went downhill fast. And I agree. It is a ($&@ show. 100?s of outfits headed down to slaughter spikes last Friday. When you have substantially less bulls, which is the case due to spike hunting, your quality goes way down because all the LE tagholders will blast a 300 inch bull if they see it. They never get to grow up.
 
Agreed there too. About 2007-2008 was last good year for cats that I remember down there. Cats are not the problem. Not even close.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Oct-08-18
>AT 12:50?PM (MST)
>
>Wanna hear from someone who basically
>lives on the Books? Here
>you go.
>
>It's a #### show. The spike
>hunt has absolutely destroyed the
>unit. The age class is
>crashing. The overall herd is
>crashing. Where are all the
>raghorns from last year that
>should be bigger? They were
>killed as raghorns last year
>because folks couldn't do better.
>Where are the spikes that
>survived last year? They didnt
>survive because they were all
>slaughtered.
>
>Other units can sustain the spike
>hunt, the books can not.
>I spend a ridiculous amount
>of time on the Books,
>every year, year round. Anybody
>that spends a fair amount
>of time there can see
>what's happening.
>
>You wanna know the only thing
>harder to find on the
>books than the quality of
>animals it used to produce?
>A biologist. Haven't seen one
>for several years out there.
>That's hundreds of days, all
>times of the year, and
>haven't seen a single biologist(you
>know, the guys that are
>supposed to be making scientific
>recommendations on the management of
>our herds). That's likely
>because they are managing the
>herds based off a bank
>account rather than science. It's
>always how they can sell
>more tags, make more hunts.
>It's never cut tags. I'm
>tired of revenue being disguised
>as opportunity.
>
>A spike or cow hunt should
>be used as a method
>to decrease the overall herd
>numbers. We're a long ways
>from needing to reduce the
>herd numbers. If the
>other areas in the state
>are doing good with the
>spike hunt, that's great. But
>it's time to shut down
>this disaster on the Books.
>While we're at it, let's
>cut the buck tags and
>move some buck tags to
>management tags.


You're almost Right on WhiskeyDog!

But the F'N Spike Hunts in all LE Units are Taking a Toll on all the LE Units!

To Slaughter Our Future Big Bulls as Spikes is the Worst F'N Management Known to Man & No I'm Not a BRAIN-WASHED Biologist!

JUDAS!

F'N!

PRIEST!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Ya Think the 2018 LE BOOK CLIFFS Hunt was PISS POOR?

Just wait till next year!

Some of the POOREST Management I've ever seen!







I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
>The houndsmen have the smallest voice,
>they're just some of the
>most dedicated.
> The Book Cliffs deer and
>elk herd are definitely not
>in bad shape because of
>the bears or lions. There
>are substantially less cats on
>the unit than there were
>10 years ago, but the
>deer and elk are continuing
>to decline.

Check your PM WhiskeyDog!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-09-18 AT 08:31AM (MST)[p]I'm not saying I think the spike hunt everywhere else is a good idea. I just don't spend a significant amount of time on any other specific units every year to feel like it's my place to be judging what's happening. The same logic would apply though, a bull shot as a spike can never be a big bull for a LE hunter.
 
I suppose if we all just wanted to hunt elk once every 20 plus years and kick the greedy ranchers off of public land we would have all the elk in the world and Utah would be praised by everyone for the outstanding trophy potential.
 
>>LAST EDITED ON Oct-08-18
>>AT 12:50?PM (MST)
>>
>>Wanna hear from someone who basically
>>lives on the Books? Here
>>you go.
>>
>>It's a #### show. The spike
>>hunt has absolutely destroyed the
>>unit. The age class is
>>crashing. The overall herd is
>>crashing. Where are all the
>>raghorns from last year that
>>should be bigger? They were
>>killed as raghorns last year
>>because folks couldn't do better.
>>Where are the spikes that
>>survived last year? They didnt
>>survive because they were all
>>slaughtered.
>>
>>Other units can sustain the spike
>>hunt, the books can not.
>>I spend a ridiculous amount
>>of time on the Books,
>>every year, year round. Anybody
>>that spends a fair amount
>>of time there can see
>>what's happening.
>>
>>You wanna know the only thing
>>harder to find on the
>>books than the quality of
>>animals it used to produce?
>>A biologist. Haven't seen one
>>for several years out there.
>>That's hundreds of days, all
>>times of the year, and
>>haven't seen a single biologist(you
>>know, the guys that are
>>supposed to be making scientific
>>recommendations on the management of
>>our herds). That's likely
>>because they are managing the
>>herds based off a bank
>>account rather than science. It's
>>always how they can sell
>>more tags, make more hunts.
>>It's never cut tags. I'm
>>tired of revenue being disguised
>>as opportunity.
>>
>>A spike or cow hunt should
>>be used as a method
>>to decrease the overall herd
>>numbers. We're a long ways
>>from needing to reduce the
>>herd numbers. If the
>>other areas in the state
>>are doing good with the
>>spike hunt, that's great. But
>>it's time to shut down
>>this disaster on the Books.
>>While we're at it, let's
>>cut the buck tags and
>>move some buck tags to
>>management tags.
>
>
>I agree with a lot of
>what you said. But
>I honestly dont think or
>believe they are managing the
>herds by the bank account.
> I fully believe it
>is managed by few special
>interest groups. NOT SFW
>OR anyone like that.
>The elk are managed by
>the Houndsman and the cattleman.
>
>
>Anytime you go to a meeting,
>who has the loudest voice?
> Who complains more (than
>the hunters)?
>
>The houndsman say there are not
>enough cougars or bears and
>that we are killing them
>all off. (Even though
>this year they finally raised
>the bear permits). And
>this year while baiting for
>my bear, I had
>no idea that there were
>that many bears in a
>given area. Each cam
>I had up on my
>bait sights had 5 different
>bears on 1 and 7
>on the other. To
>me that is crazy.
>
>You ask the cattleman, and there
>isnt any feed on the
>free range out there and
>that we need to get
>rid of half the elk.
> B.S.!!! If the
>range is as bad as
>it is right now, why
>on Gods green earth are
>the cattle still up on
>the mountains?
>
>So when these groups speak, they
>listen. Too many ELK???
> Hell, lets kill them.
> Lets give out 786
>more elk tags on the
>units. Lets go unlimited
>cow elk archery tags and
>then thousands of rifle tags
>and lets hunt them from
>Aug 1 to Feb 1,
>because that doesnt push them
>off to the private land
>at all!!! LOL!!!
>Then we get to hear
>all the land owners complain,
>but then ask to hunt
>those elk and its $500.
> Well, like me, the
>average Joe Hunter doesnt have
>$500 bucks for a cow
>tag. Sorry!

?this year while baiting for my bear, I had no idea that there were that many bears in a given area. Each cam I had up on my bait sights had 5 different bears on 1 and 7 on the other. To me that is crazy.?

This is one of the dumbest things ive seen on this site in a while. I bet if you go sit at mcdonalds around 6:00pm youd be suprised how many people show up also.
 
?this year while baiting for my bear, I had no idea that there were that many bears in a given area. Each cam I had up on my bait sights had 5 different bears on 1 and 7 on the other. To me that is crazy.?

This is one of the dumbest things ive seen on this site in a while. I bet if you go sit at mcdonalds around 6:00pm youd be suprised how many people show up also.
 
Anybody Remember when they Shot the Book Cliffs Deer Herd Out Several years ago?

So F'N Bad they had to Close the Unit!

My How F'N Quick Some Forget!

I Sure the Hell Hope We're Not Working on an LE Elk Unit Closure!

Keep the Same Management Up & it'll Close itself!












I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
It really is quite sad the down turn in elk numbers on the Books in just 3 short years...
 
Wow. After all these years it's the same people on here whining about how bad it is. Really? You really want to limit the tags some more so we can stay home? It already takes 20 years to draw. Yes we had 400 bulls a few years ago but who was killing the majority of them? The trophy/guide business that's who. Technology and money are the culprits just like steroids in baseball. Nevada finally did something about the trail camera problem and other states hopefully will follow but it's doubtful. All you hear is cut the tags, cut the tags!!! I have news for you all. That is not the answer!!!! I will say it again. Make it a hunt again and put limits on what can be used to harvest the animals. The real problem is ur 350 second bow, scoped muzzleloader, 1000 yard rifle, ATV that goes anywhere, trail cameras, drones, Swarovski binos and scopes, planes, 25 helpers, etc. All this crap has made success rates go through the roof! Make it a hunt again. Give me a recurve, sidelock smokepole with ball and patch, a 30/30 or 30/06 with 4 power scope and I'll out hunt all of ya.
 
That's not it. Books can't handle slaughtering all the young bulls (spike tags) year after year. It's caught up.
 
>Wow. After all these years it's
>the same people on here
>whining about how bad it
>is. Really? You really want
>to limit the tags some
>more so we can stay
>home? It already takes 20
>years to draw. Yes we
>had 400 bulls a few
>years ago but who was
>killing the majority of them?
>The trophy/guide business that's who.
>Technology and money are the
>culprits just like steroids in
>baseball. Nevada finally did something
>about the trail camera problem
>and other states hopefully will
>follow but it's doubtful. All
>you hear is cut the
>tags, cut the tags!!! I
>have news for you all.
>That is not the answer!!!!
>I will say it again.
>Make it a hunt again
>and put limits on what
>can be used to harvest
>the animals. The real problem
>is ur 350 second bow,
>scoped muzzleloader, 1000 yard rifle,
>ATV that goes anywhere, trail
>cameras, drones, Swarovski binos and
>scopes, planes, 25 helpers, etc.
>All this crap has made
>success rates go through the
>roof! Make it a hunt
>again. Give me a recurve,
>sidelock smokepole with ball and
>patch, a 30/30 or 30/06
>with 4 power scope and
>I'll out hunt all of
>ya.


So?

I Guess an 06 would be considered a "SHORT RANGE" Rifle in today's World!

JUDAS!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
I hunted three LE units in central and southern Itah. Tough hunts on all of them. Elk numbers seemed way down and the size of bulls was down also. Would definitely like to see something different. I did see plenty of moo cows on all the units. Seems to be more of them and less elk and deer? My observations.
 
>That's not it. Books
>can't handle slaughtering
>all the young bulls (spike
>tags) year after year.
>It's caught up.

I remember the days before the DWR implemented the Spike only hunts. There was not a fraction of the big bulls that we have today. that's a fact.
 
We?ve gotten to good at killing bottom line we need to limit some things. I guess it's what's cool if you can post up #gunwerked

"We don't have a gun problem we have prescription drug problem."
 
Less elk on the wasatch has helped the deer herd there imo.

Blanket management doesn't work. Biologists need to manage, they also need to be able to manage.

There's a fix but nobody is willing to compromise at all between hunters and cattlemen. There's room for both.


4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
It ain't just the book cliffs in decline. It's pretty much across the board in Utah, just insert your favorite unit name and it applies.

I think if we've discovered one thing in Utah, that would be the amount of hunting/tags/pressure a herd can take until it crashes. Utah has found that limit and doubled down on it. The future of hunting big game in Utah is bleak. It is a shame that those who can do something to fix it (DWR) are in denial. It boils down to B.S. herd counts, buck/doe, bull/cow ratio management and printing tags like Fiat money.
 
>It ain't just the book cliffs
>in decline. It's pretty much
>across the board in Utah,
>just insert your favorite unit
>name and it applies.
>
>I think if we've discovered one
>thing in Utah, that would
>be the amount of hunting/tags/pressure
>a herd can take until
>it crashes. Utah has found
>that limit and doubled down
>on it. The future of
>hunting big game in Utah
>is bleak. It is a
>shame that those who can
>do something to fix it
>(DWR) are in denial. It
>boils down to B.S. herd
>counts, buck/doe, bull/cow ratio management
>and printing tags like Fiat
>money.


+ 1,000,000,000!

MONEY!

GREED!

MORE MONEY!

MORE GREED!

They Print F'N Tags Like Our Government Prints Money!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
The DWR has not published 2017 data on this yet (at least that I found), but here is the average age of bulls harvested on the Book Cliffs units:

Bitter Creek/South
2014- 7.9
2015- 7.5
2016- 7.8

Little Creek
2014- 7.9
2015- 7.5
2016- 7.3

So maybe 2017 will dip down to 4.7 years old to substantiate some of the claims made above, but a 7.5 year old elk is not a raghorn. I've never stepped foot on the Book Cliffs, but something stinks about some of the claims I read above.

And put me squarely in the camp that does not believe that our LE units have all been destroyed. Even with all the doom and gloom we've heard about the Satch the last 5 years, look what the reports are this year after scaling back cow tags for only 2 years? Oh, those are only in the areas none of us hunt. Sorry, forgot.
 
>Had the Dutton tag this year.
>Quality is down but it
>seems the bull numbers are
>up. Biggest issue is the
>cameras. Anything that resembles water
>has multiple cameras. Pretty tough
>for the average Joe anymore.
>

I know a Dutton archer who stuck and lost two bull's over 350" before he punched his tag on a 340".
So in essence, one guy killed three mature bull's.
This BS is happening on EVERY unit and it makes me sick!
 
>The DWR has not published 2017
>data on this yet (at
>least that I found), but
>here is the average age
>of bulls harvested on the
>Book Cliffs units:
>
>Bitter Creek/South
>2014- 7.9
>2015- 7.5
>2016- 7.8
>
>Little Creek
>2014- 7.9
>2015- 7.5
>2016- 7.3
>
>So maybe 2017 will dip down
>to 4.7 years old to
>substantiate some of the claims
>made above, but a 7.5
>year old elk is not
>a raghorn. I've never stepped
>foot on the Book Cliffs,
>but something stinks about some
>of the claims I read
>above.
>
>And put me squarely in the
>camp that does not believe
>that our LE units have
>all been destroyed. Even with
>all the doom and gloom
>we've heard about the Satch
>the last 5 years, look
>what the reports are this
>year after scaling back cow
>tags for only 2 years?
>Oh, those are only in
>the areas none of us
>hunt. Sorry, forgot.

This ^^^^
??????????
 
>The DWR has not published 2017
>data on this yet (at
>least that I found), but
>here is the average age
>of bulls harvested on the
>Book Cliffs units:
>
>Bitter Creek/South
>2014- 7.9
>2015- 7.5
>2016- 7.8
>
>Little Creek
>2014- 7.9
>2015- 7.5
>2016- 7.3
>
>So maybe 2017 will dip down
>to 4.7 years old to
>substantiate some of the claims
>made above, but a 7.5
>year old elk is not
>a raghorn. I've never stepped
>foot on the Book Cliffs,
>but something stinks about some
>of the claims I read
>above.
>
>And put me squarely in the
>camp that does not believe
>that our LE units have
>all been destroyed. Even with
>all the doom and gloom
>we've heard about the Satch
>the last 5 years, look
>what the reports are this
>year after scaling back cow
>tags for only 2 years?
>Oh, those are only in
>the areas none of us
>hunt. Sorry, forgot.


You wanna Wager some Money on the age of PISSCUTTERS taken in the Book Cliffs in 2018?










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
I'm not much of a gambler, but I'd be interested in hearing what your prediction on average age will be.
 
>I'm not much of a gambler,
>but I'd be interested in
>hearing what your prediction on
>average age will be.

A GUARAN-DAMN-TEE of being Lower than Previous years if all animals are Checked!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
The Deer Herd out there has been F'D Up for several years!

They've been F'ing Up the Elk Herd for several years!

It's Really Shinning this year!

Talked to another Guy today that took a 20" 4X3 PISSCUTTER that took 12 Points!

QUALITY MANAGEMENT AT IT'S BEST!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Lower as in 7.4 years old? Or lower as in 5.5 years old?

C?mon cat. You?re making bold statements, throw a number out.

All animals shot are required to send in teeth for aging, right?
 
I want to share my observations about my experience my dad and I had while hunting the Books this year. My dad was lucky/unlucky enough to draw to draw the Bitter Creek tag at the expo. My family had hunted the roadless area many times over the years but we had never hunted the road area. My dad and I were looking forward to learning a knew area and hoping to find a good bull in the process. After a few scouting trips it became apparent that it was going to be a tough hunt. A few weeks before the hunt my dad and I talked about how if he had drawn the tag in the regular draw and used any points that he would have turned it in. But since he basically had a "free" permit we knew that we would hunt hard and see what we could turn up. My dad went out six days before the hunt started and stayed the duration of the hunt. He covered most of the unit in the six days prior to his hunt and only saw five bulls. with a small 5x6 being the biggest bull. I went out and joined him for five days at the start of the hunt. Opening day we passed a decent bull that had some broken points. This bull had four cows with him. Those were the only elk we saw that day. The second day changed areas and we started to see more elk. I saw eleven bulls that day but nothing was bigger than a rag horn. Even though we were in a canyon that had elk we only heard a few bugles, and experienced very little rut activity. We continued to hunt that general area for the rest of the hunt and we did see elk, but no shooters. While I was there I saw one bull that would score about 330 one bull that would go about 310 and the rest of the bulls were under 300. There was very little water and it was so hot that all of the elk were in the thick pines, and there was very little movement other than first and last light. In the end my dad never pulled the trigger. He just couldn't bring him self to shoot a small bull. We talked to many hunters and they were all struggling too. Many hunters had burned 18-22 points to draw the tag and they were all desperate. No one was seeing elk where they usually were. In the whole time I was out there I didn't hear any shots or see any elk get harvested. The last day of my dads hunt he passed on a few small six points. When he got back to camp there were some other hunters that had camped next to us. Both of the hunters in camp had used 19 points to draw the tag. The other hunters had given up and were leaving to head home. My dad took them and showed them the bulls that he had seen that morning. They started shooting and in all the commotion they shot the wrong bull. They filled their tag with a 4x4 rag horn.

I was expecting this hunt to be similar to the hunts we had in the roadless area about 10-12 years ago. On those hunts we saw lots of good bulls and experienced some amazing rut action. But it was nothing like that. It was a major let down. If I had to guess, harvest success and the satisfaction scores will be way down from years past. Overall it was still great to spend some time in the books, I'm just glad that we didn't use ANY points to draw the tag.
 
As you can see this is my first post. I used to look on here for pictures and all around cool hunting stories and see awesome pictures, Remeber Littlefoot I think his name was awesome photography. Or the kid smoking a bong in the background ya I was around then. Anyways it's been awhile since I've been on here, but I got on here just to see if there was any discussion about this same subject and here it is the top of the elk forum discussion. I may not have any posts and I don't care who has the most posts. But I had the LE archery tag in 2006 and again in 2018 and if you can say there hasn't been a down turn in quality all you are doing is lying to yourself. It's idiotic to think you can hunt rutting bulls with a rifle in September and then use a ?MuzzleLoader? in late September and not see a couple of things happen #1. Elk numbers suffer #2 Above average hunter success rates. #3. A draw flooded with applicants. It's a easy hunt with limited hunting pressure and the prime time to hunt elk (let's put the whole family in for the cupcake elk hunt) #4. Utah is the only state that hunts bulls in September with a rifle during the rut state wide! I had to laugh when I read the guys story of his 5 point he couldn't pass up although he saw multiple 350+ bulls all because they called it in and it was screaming so he shot it with his ?MuzzleLoader? (AKA Single Shot Rifle) I hope he had his new 3-9 scope turned down so he could
get a ethical shot on the screaming rutting bull at 25 yards. #5....oh screw it Utah you are pathetic, that's why I spend my hard earned money out of state. I do have some ideas to fix it but I'm not going to the dog and pony show RAC Meeting to listen to a bunch of people push there agenda through to help the deep pocket hunters make more money. Here?s an idea move the rifle hunt out of September and half your applicants will drop out because the hunt is too hard. Drop the late Rifle and hunt bulls in October with a rifle like everyone else does. Grandma won't want to go in October so she won't let her grandson apply for her so they all drop out. Or hey maybe make a couple of units the cupcake September ?any weapon? hunt and the rest put the archery hunt where it belongs. Oh but that messes with the divisions bottom line so that idea wouldn't work. Here is a test for you make the Manti, Wasatch, Fish Lake, Cache, September 1-20 and keep your cup cake rifle hunt for the Monroe, Pahvant, San Juan, etc. and see how the numbers change. Too bad that won't fly with the big money guys(DWR). Oh well this will be my only post. Hate on me all you want I really don't care. I'll go hunt Wyoming on a general tag every 2-3 years with both a bow and a rifle and love every minute of it hunting mature bulls not spikes! Utah is the laughing stock of the western states. Here we have an awesome elk heard on public land but But we are happy only hunting bulls once in our life time with a rifle in September. While a few people and the division make millions.

Let them Eat Cake!!! (French)
Or better yet
Bread & Circuses (Roman)
(You might have to look those up)

6x7kicker
 
the fish and duck has ruined northeastern Utah far as elk and deer are concerned both L E and general .they just need to close it down. for 5 years agin to get the herds back. its bad when guides wont even take hunters on L>E unit because there is no quality .and local sporting goods store has a don't shoot bambi contest. to turn in tag to win a prize .
 
>Lower as in 7.4 years old?
>Or lower as in 5.5
>years old?
>
>C?mon cat. You?re making bold statements,
>throw a number out.
>
>All animals shot are required to
>send in teeth for aging,
>right?

Alright Niller?

You Must not get out to the Book Cliffs too often?

If You did You'd see Night & Day Differences in the Deer & Elk Herd!

The Last couple of Posts(Not Mine!)Read them!

We are NOT BullShhitting you in any way!

The Cow & the Spike KILLING has left this Unit as Well as many others in PISS POOR shape!

I wanna see the averages of this years age harvested included with Hunters that didn't shoot anything by taking the PROUD way out & said 'I Ain't Shooting a PISSCUTTER'!

Seriously Vanilla,The Unit is Hurting!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Here in southern IL, we were all guilty of killing the first buck you seen, and over the years it has hurt our population. Now it's gotten so bad that you can't shoot antlerless deer in some counties. I dont know if elk science is the same as deer though.

Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 
Bessy, you going to make a prediction and give us a number on the average age killed this year?
 
Hi Bessy,
Is Utah Game & Fish pretty much like all government bodies
where the people want one thing but they continue to do as they please?

Thanks for your time

Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 
>Bessy, you going to make a
>prediction and give us a
>number on the average age
>killed this year?

You Still Don't believe it do you Niller?

You want me to have the Premium Elk Tag Holder Talk to you?

So Tell us Niller?

How much time have/do You Spend in the Book Cliffs?

If You've Spent any Time at all you could easily see major Changes in the Elk Herd out there!













I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Well, it was you talking about putting money on stuff, not me. With as strong as you've talked, I figured you'd at least put out a number.

I guess not, though.
 
>Well, it was you talking about
>putting money on stuff, not
>me. With as strong as
>you've talked, I figured you'd
>at least put out a
>number.
>
>I guess not, though.

Hey Niller!

I Don't know the exact Number!

And I never seen every Bull taken!

But We get a feel for and Reports of First Hand Experiences from Hunters in the Field!

I Will make a Money Bet with You though!

If every Bull Taken in the Book Cliffs was aged & The Guys that didn't shoot a Bull at all are all added up comparing the same numbers to Previous years I say there's quite a noticeable difference in the number & Age Class of Elk Harvested & Yes I'm Talking a Lower Success Rate/Number/Age Class by Far!

I'm Willing to put a 1,000.00 Wager on it!

You In?











I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
That is the worst bet ever. ?Quite a noticeable difference? and ?if every bull is aged.?

That is like saying, ?Elkass, I will bet you 1 million dollars that the average size bull killed in the Books was over 400 inches, but only if every bull killed was taken to an official B&C scorer after the requisite drying period.?

Oh, and the sky can't be blue tomorrow either. You in?

It's all good Bessy. At least we all know now that even you don't believe your own very strong statements and criticism on this one. Knowing that, I won't need to pay quite as close of attention. Too bad they had a rough year out on the Books. I hope it can bounce back for the hunters in waiting.
 

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