It's Time to Ax the DHProgram!

[buglinbilly]

I think the time has come to ax the dedicated hunter program.

Utah's ever increasing population and the continued loss of mule deer habitat, combined with low mule deer numbers, will require big changes be made, if we are to continue to hunt this species at present day numbers.

With such a limited resource I think the time has come to do away with the dedicated hunter program. Why is it fair that a select number of hunters (10,000) be allowed to hunt all three seasons, while others who would like to hunt, be denied a license because the quotas are filled.

I suggest the dedicated hunter program be fazed out as each participants 3 year time period expires.

Just recently the Division recommended the end to state wide archery hunting as a way to try to eliminate over crowding. I suggest this would be a much better way of achieving that goal, and at the same time allowing more opportunity to a larger number of hunters.

Our deer herds do not need a select group of hunters who can hunt all three weapons, and if they don't take a deer turn around and hunt the extended archery areas. Let us make each hunter choose their weapon and hunt only in that time frame. In the long run this would do much to help the over crowding and at the same time help our deer herds.

Have a good one. BB

 

[bobcatbess]

SO I CAN ONLY TAKE 2 DEER IN A 3 YEAR PERIOD VERSUS I CAN TAKE 3 DEER IN A 3 YEAR PERIOD???

SPLAIN IT PLEASE???

IT'LL TAKE MORE THAN ABOLISHING THE DEDICATED HUNTER PROGRAM TO BRING QUALITY DEER HUNTING BACK!!!

WAKE THE HELL UP!!!



THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[alp75]

I think you are wrong. The dh is a good program. 10,000 people times 24 hours = 240,000 man hours dedicated to habitat restoration and projects that would require dwr monies. 2 deer in three years as opposed to 3 in 3. Not to mention most dedicated hunters do not expect to take just any buck. I am on my third year and have only taken one buck on my first year. I will hunt the extended unit a couple more times, but do not expect to take a buck, I won't pass up a good buck either. The point is there is a lot that goes into the dh program and not a lot that comes out. The reason it has been fair in the past is that there has not always been a full quota. Only the people who wanted in and were willing to do the work became dh. I agree that now to make it more fair that once a dh 3rd year ends they should be required to draw out for the program along with any new applicants. Another reason it is fair is that those 10k people give more to be a part of the program. The cost for the two tags is more along with the hours required. That makes it fair. Those who don't want to pay more or do the work don't become dedicated hunters and can hunt one season. I would even be for the dwr requiring new applicants to put in 8 hours as a prerequsite to applying. That would weed out a few more of those that are not serious. I like the program because I feel like I am contributing to the wildlife through my participation in the work projects and I get to enjoy more time on the mountain.

 

[peakfreak]

NOT...Obviously you are not a DH. This is a great program that helps more than it hurts. All the DH's I know are trophy hunters and just love to get out in the hills. Two deer in three years saves 33% right off. So pick on somebody else. I'm not a big fan of archery. I had three buddies put an arrow in bucks this year and track them for days with no luck. Seems like for every clean kill there are two or three that climb in a hole and die.

 

[oakbrush]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-05-08 AT 07:25AM (MST)[p]>I think the time has come
>to ax the dedicated hunter
>program.
>
>Utah's ever increasing population and the
>continued loss of mule deer
>habitat, combined with low mule
>deer numbers, will require big
>changes be made, if we
>are to continue to hunt
>this species at present day
>numbers.
>
>With such a limited resource I
>think the time has come
>to do away with the
>dedicated hunter program. Why
>is it fair that a
>select number of hunters (10,000)
>be allowed to hunt all
>three seasons, while others who
>would like to hunt, be
>denied a license because the
>quotas are filled.
>
>I suggest the dedicated hunter program
>be fazed out as each
>participants 3 year time period
>expires.
>
>Just recently the Division recommended the
>end to state wide archery
>hunting as a way to
>try to eliminate over crowding.
> I suggest this would
>be a much better way
>of achieving that goal, and
>at the same time allowing
>more opportunity to a larger
>number of hunters.
>
>Our deer herds do not need
>a select group of hunters
>who can hunt all three
>weapons, and if they don't
>take a deer turn around
>and hunt the extended archery
>areas. Let us make
>each hunter choose their weapon
>and hunt only in that
>time frame. In the
>long run this would do
>much to help the over
>crowding and at the same
>time help our deer herds.
>
>
>Have a good one. BB


Dude you are wrong on this. Dedicated hunters pay twice the license fee, donate thier free labor and are very picky about the size of the deer they shoot. I know several hunters that only end up taking one deer in the 3 year period and it was in all cases a mature buck. Dedicated hunters tend not to shoot forkies. It is a huge resource for the division. What business wouldn't want 10,000 laborers that pay you to come and work. I think they would be foolish to get rid of the program.

oakbrush

 

[Daxter]

The success rate for Dedicated Hunters is far lower than the average success rate for hunters with regular annual tags. Also, the DWR counts all the hours that are donated by dedicated hunters as "in kind" matching contribution towards federal grants. So, in addition to the hours DH participants give and the work they do, the DWR is also able to leverage that work towards receiving more federal funds to help with wildlife management in the state. Plus, dedicated hunters pay $190 to possibly shoot 2 deer, that is $95 per deer, 2 times what other hunters pay. Dedicated hunters pay more, shoot fewer deer, and spend at least 24 hours working on projects to benefit wildlife, it seems fitting to me that they have a few extra benefits compared to the hunter that just does the regular hunt every year. If you can't beat em, join em.

 

[bragabit]

I too would like to see the DH program go away. I have been in the program 3 times for a total of 9 years. I have killed two deer in those nine years. I will not be rejoining next year. Even though the DH hunters may not kill a deer every year they add a tremendous amount of pressure to the herds. I honestly think getting rid of the DH program would help the southern region deer herds far more than getting rid of Statewide archery. I don't have the numbers but I would assume that atleast half (5000) of the total dedicated hunters hunt the Southern Region. It has been years since I have seen any DH projects that have been worthwhile to the DEER herd.

 

[mdl]

I am a Dedicated Hunter and have enjoyed the experience. I am in my 8th year. I actually do more service hours than hunt. If you do away with the DH program, because of the additional stress on deer herds, then there is another program that must also go. That program is the one that allows any hunter under the age of 18 to hunt all three seasons.

Everyone must choose a region to hunt, archery hunters should also.

 

[bragabit]

MDL,
I agree EVERONE should choose one region with one weapon. The DWR estimates around 60,000 buck in Utah they give 95,000 buck tags. Then we let 20,000 (DH-youth)of those tags hunt all three hunts thatslike adding 40,000 more tags. I know they don't kill but they all add pressure equal. That is just to much pressure from August through November.

 

[huntnrich]

I say bull to those wanting to ban DH. I've been in 9 years, and I've shot 1 deer. Most hunters in Utah, cannot stand to eat there tag, so they shoot bambi at the end of there hunt. Now who does more harm, me as a dedicated hunter? Or Mr. tropher hunter for the first hour, then becomes a meat hunter after that?

Rich

 

[HUNTINFORLIFE]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-05-08 AT 10:23AM (MST)[p]That crazy if you think that eliminating the DH program will reduce the amount of pressure in the south. The tags for that program are takin right off the top of the cap. If you Eliminate the DH you will just have the same amount of tags giving for each weapon. so you will not reduce the pressure you just may increase the harvest for each weapon.
For example: 10,000 DH tags are issues, -10000 rifle tags, -10000 muzzle loader tags, -10000 archery tags if you put 10000 tags back it for each weapon and figure that the average harvest on a general hunt is 40% thats 4000 deer killed every year 12000 in 3 year period. with the DH program right off the top you only have 20000 tags for 3 year period and 40% harvest rate is only 8000 deer every 3 years.

Maybe im not understanding the issue.

 

[bragabit]

They do not reduce the cap 30,000 for the 10,000 dedicated huters. They reduce it by 10,000. So yes the program does add pressure that is equivelant to 20,000 added tags. I agree that they take less deer compared to the regular season hunters. But, they do add pressure. They are out there 3X's as much.

 

[troutsniffer]

I am in my 2nd year. I didn't kill last year, and I have not even hunted deer in Utah this year. Maybe I will hunt the extended next week. The DWR has my extra money and hours helping build habitat, but I don't think I'm hurting the herd or crowding issue.

 

[alp75]

As far as pressure goes...as a dedicated hunter I hunt on average one day a week for each season. So let's add it up and be a little generous. Lets say 6 days archery, 2 days ml, and 2 days rifle(I actually only got out once) maybe 3 days extended (if I am lucky) so a total of 13 days of pressure from me, and that is on the generous side. If I were to hunt one season only I would hunt everyday of the season. So on a rifle hunt that would be 9 days in the field. Does not seem like that much more pressure considering the benefits of the program. For those dedicated hunters who get a deer on the archery less pressure on the other hunts. I'm just not buying the added pressure justification.

I have never hunted the southern unit as a dedicated hunter. Sorry, but I am not buying into that one either.

 

[HornyMan]

Most dedicated dont take animals anyways, at least I didn't. I took one animal in the three year program. If I wasn't dedicated there were a couple of bucks I probably would have taken.

 

[UTMuleyhunter]

I would like to see some survey studies done on the dedicated hunters to find out what percentage hunted each hunt (archery, muzzle, rifle) and how many days in the field for each hunt. I cannot believe the number of growing hunters I have seen the past few years on the Muzzle deer hunt. I've got to believe a high percentage of them are in the DH program. I think it is putting a lot of pressure on the herds. However, I do agree that the DH program does have its benefits with the man hours put in, but is it ruining the quality of the deer hunt?

 

[pushin_30]

+1 huntnrich
I too am a DH and have been for the last 8 years. In that time frame I have taken one deer. I believe that doing away with the DH program will only add to Utah's dwindling mule deer herds. So not only do you now have 10,000 more people who now can harvest 3 deer in 3 years, the state is also out the DH man hours and the DH fees = less money and labor for wildlife habitat = less mule deer. IMO if you limit a hunter to one season a year that hunter will do whatever it takes to harvest a deer trophy or not, so... The dedicated hunter program is a very good managment tool for the DWR. Just my .02

 

[alp75]

Good suggestion. I would be open to the dwr requiring a survey at the end of each dh year providing information such as areas hunted, days in the field and animals harvested and by what weapon. Could help provide actual facts regarding the program rather than some assumptions (both positive and negative) being made.

 

[Deerlove]

I've been in the DH program a couple of times, and my only beef is that ALL the service should be directed to helping the deer herds. We dont need people licking stamps etc. Russ

 

[antlerrick]

I have been in the DH program from its start, and very rarely harvest more than 1 deer in the 3 years, if that.
It would be a major shock to the DWR if they lost the extra funding they receive from the extra cost of tags, and the "free labor" which is required by each hunter, along with the other benefits from these programs.
Where the youth have the opportunity to hunt all 3 seasons, I think they have a lot higher harvest rate as they all just want to kill an animal.
IMHO, if the DWR axed the program, it would just be another way to be sure to continue the downfall of our struggling deer herds already.

 

[Ticks N Tines]

I'm a DH on my last year of the program. I have done 54 hours of service and hunted hard for three years. I passed up 30 bucks in the three years, all spikes and two points.
I'm tired of working soo hard for a good buck and my wife is sick of me hunting every season of the year. I'm done with the program after this year and I'm sticking with Archery.
I did learn that the archery hunt is by far the best hunt. I saw a lot of big bucks and no people. I do think that the DH create more pressure out in the field.

I just don't understand why we cant micro manage the whole state and have a three seasons in every unit. You choose your "micro" unit and go hunt it. Some units should be harder to draw than others. It's getting way too crowded up here in Northern Utah and after this years rifle hunt, I will never hunt general rifle again as long as the management program stays this way.

So I say get rid of the program and let everybody choose a unit and a weapon.

 

[Daxter]

Several people have posted that the extra "hunting pressure" from dedicated hunters being out in the field longer is hurting the deer. Dedicated hunters have a lower harvest rate than regular general season hunters, so if they just gave those 10,000 tags in the draw more bucks would actually be killed.

I am wondering how the extra "pressure" during hunting seasons is hurting the deer more than killing more bucks would? I don't understand how extra pressure during the season is hurting quality, especially if those hunters don't kill as many deer as regular hunters?

It seems like lots of the deer hunters around here like to look to CO as the holy grail of deer hunting, and you want to talk about pressure? CO has unlimited elk tags, and multiple overlapping seasons that extend into the deer rut. CO deer are pressured like no other, but most of that pressure is from elk hunters that don't kill any bucks. I think that it is pretty easy to figure out from CO that shooting fewer bucks will do way more for improving quality than "reducing pressure" while increasing buck harvest.

 

[buglinbilly]

I am certainly aware that doing away with the DH program will not cure all the ills of overcrowding or fix many of deer management concerns. I also understand how those of you who are in the program, would not like to see it end. I'm also aware of the extra money you pay for a permit and savvy the importance of the work hours you contribute. But with such high numbers of people who want to hunt, compared to available permits, I think its time to phase out this program. And here are my reasons I say this.

At the present time Utah only allows about 96,000 total deer permits. In yesteryear there was a time when they sold over 200,000 permits and everyone who wanted to purchase a permit could. Sadly, those days are gone forever. Some years back one could purchase a lifetime license. Those days are gone too, but the Division will have to honor those sportsmen until their death. If I have my figures correct, there are still approximately 4,000 lifetime license holders. Combine those with 10,000 dedicated hunters and before the drawing starts, you have 14,000 permits taken right off the top, thus leaving just over 80,000 permits to be drawn by the remainder of those wishing to hunt. Of those 14,000 hunters (lifetime and dh) they not only get a permit without drawing, they also can choose the region in which they choose to hunt. Not all LT and DH will choose the southern or southeastern regions, but a high percentage will, thus leaving fewer permits for the rest of hunting population to draw. Since the Division has to honor the LT license holders and can do nothing about that, they can at least, distribute 10,000 more permits in a manner that is fairer to all, than the present system.

A good alternative, to make up for the lost work hours, and the matching funds, would be to allow every hunter who donated 20 or more work hours per year to receive a point towards the general draw and the region of his choice. That way the guys who really wanted to hunt the most would still have an advantage over those that didn't do work hours and yet everyone would still have to draw for their permit.

For all that are posting that they can only kill 2 deer in three years let it be known that very few regular hunts kill a deer every year. Most archers only get a deer every 7-8 years, and most muzzle loaders kill far less than most rifle hunters. And even most rifle hunters don't kill every year. I know there are exceptions to this, but in general those statements are true.

In the rush to kill big Utah bulls, Utah?s mule deer population was basically left in the dust and each and everyone of us must pay by giving more and taking less. I know that is not a popular idea, but it still remains a very true fact.

Have a good one. BB

 

[2_Point]

It is a fact that there are over 4,000 lifetime license holders. But one can not lump them in with the VOLUNTARY dedicated hunter program. Everyone of us have the opportunity to sign up and join the program.

This idea is coming out of the bow hunting community as a stance to preserve their statewide hunt. Dedicated hunters are the fall guy. "If we can rid the state of dedicated hunters then we will reduce the Southern crowding issue and we can still hunt statewide." "Get rid of the dedicated hunters so we can have the Front to ourselves." This idea is just as selfish as the southern rifle hunters wanting to do away with the statewide archery.

Get the 4,000+ lifetimers to forfeit their license and then we can do away with the dedicated hunter program. Instead of a lifetime contract the F&G is signing a 3 year deal, and getting a heck of a return on the provided opportunity.

 

[thebuckstopshere]

If you eliminate the DH program, you can expect there will be extra tags up for auction at the "banquets" so that the DWR can fill the void for money lost from DH. Many DH "purchase" their hours, at $20 bucks a pop. So you not only will eliminate the projects, but the $$$.

But hey, who cares if the DWR takes another three tags from the Henries, four tags from the Pauns, etc. etc. etc.

Screw the little DH, lets just give more opportunity for the real "donors!" Yup, sounds like a great idea!

 

[rmanwill]

I am a DH and I have not taken a buck in the past two years. Even though I'm allowed to harvest two in three years. I could have taken many different bucks if I was just after a kill!!! However, I choose not to. I can hunt all three hunts, but with family, work and other hunts I have only hunted my region on the muzzleloader hunt, not all three seasons. The DH program does garuntee me a southern tag for three years which is worth the money, time and service I do donate.

There is quotas in the regions and DH's do not take three hits for the quota (one for each weapons). So dedicated or choose your weapon it all counts the same (As one).

The dedeciated program never even hit the quota of 10,000 until last year, so it was totally open to anyone willing to pay the money, attend the meetings and donate 24 hours of service to the state, fish and game and wildlife.

Now that the quota is met. Every year you will have the same oppurtunity as a former Dh person that his three years have expired has to get in on this great program.

 

[thepenquin]

>It is a fact that there
>are over 4,000 lifetime license
>holders. But one can
>not lump them in with
>the VOLUNTARY dedicated hunter program.
> Everyone of us have
>the opportunity to sign up
>and join the program.
>
>This idea is coming out of
>the bow hunting community as
>a stance to preserve their
>statewide hunt. Dedicated hunters
>are the fall guy.
>"If we can rid the
>state of dedicated hunters then
>we will reduce the Southern
>crowding issue and we can
>still hunt statewide." "Get
>rid of the dedicated hunters
>so we can have the
>Front to ourselves." This
>idea is just as selfish
>as the southern rifle hunters
>wanting to do away with
>the statewide archery.
>
>Get the 4,000+ lifetimers to forfeit
>their license and then we
>can do away with the
>dedicated hunter program. Instead
>of a lifetime contract the
>F&G is signing a 3
>year deal, and getting a
>heck of a return on
>the provided opportunity.

BINGO!!!

 

[cabinfever]

I have been a DH and agree that it has some good benefits for wildlife,however, I agree it is time it went away. It has created some serious overcrowding problems here in Southern region and I'd wager there are fewer trophy hunters in the program than one might think.Most are trophy hunters in the 1st year and than punch their tags with what ever the following two years.

Mike

 

[MTQuivers]

I will just say that I am bow hunter. I do not believe it is the the opinion of most bow hunters to get rid of the dedicated program to have the Wasatch Front to themselves. Many of the bow hunters I know support the dedicated hunter program and many of them are members of the dedicated hunter program. That being said I think many bowhunters use the program as a crutch or backup plan. They want a backup plan for the regular archery hunt, then they want a backup for the muzzy hunt, then they want a backup plan for the rifle hunt, so they hunt the extended archery. I believe it is correct when people say many dedicated hunters are trophy hunters and they don't kill a deer every year, but I also know that there are people who do the program and are thrilled to shoot a two point. I also beleive that the program encourages poaching. For example a guy will kill a buck on the first year and knowing he won't be able to hunt the following year he doesn't tag his buck so that he can hunt the next two years. I know that is an extreme example but I know it happens especially on private ground.
I think the program has some great benifits with the extra money raised and the volunteer work, but I agree that it needs to be rethought. Maybe less dedicated hunter tags, a draw system, or possibly a new program all together. I just hate to see guys use it as a crutch. If a guy is a trophy hunter and he is using the program to increase odds on a real trophy then I think it is a great thing, but most of the guys I know that are part of the program are using this program as a backup plan to kill a deer if another hunt doesn't work out and many of them are not trophy hunters at all. They just simply know that they are not truly commited to any one weapon and 3 sounds better than one. JMO
P.S. The wasatch is a perfect example of archery hunting being a great trophy management tool. There is NOWHERE in this state that gets the hunting pressure this area gets yet it continues to hold great mule deer. This proves that when people say archery hunters wound game and pressure the herd, they are wrong. If you have any doubt about this statement go to the Wasatch area in November. Two things are for sure. You will see big bucks and you will see LOTS of bowhunters. Archery hunting should be used more as a management tool for more trophy units in Utah. I think if there were more archery only units in the state with limited draws in these areas for rifle hunts, we would all benefit. Just imagine a limited rifle hunt on the wasatch. It would be up there in the top 3-4 deer hunts in the state with no winter range and unbelievable hunting pressure.
Just my thoughts!
www.basinarcheryshop.com

 

[bobcatbess]

JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

THERES MORE PROBLEMS WITH THE UTAH PISSCUTTER HERD THAN JUST A FEW FEATHER FLIPPERS BLAMING DEDICATED HUNTERS FOR PISS POOR DEER NUMBERS/QUALITY!!!

WAKE THE HELL UP!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[MEEW]

I have been a dedicated hunter for 9 years---I have killed 3 bucks all 3 of which are now on my wall--that also equals 6 years of tag soup--not one complaint---that is a true dedicated hunter in my opinion and I know of alot of other d-hers that are the same--pressure doesn't kill deer bullets do--if you don't fire an arrow or a bullet then that buck will walk and if you pisscutter lovers would let him be also then maybe the taxidermists would be busier-- I don't mind spending some extra flow on a tropy to put on my wall...

 

[MTQuivers]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-05-08 AT 08:53PM (MST)[p]Bobcat come down to the Wasatch hunt in early August and I will show you 5 bucks over 180 in a few days hunting. (if you are ready for a hike) I am not saying that it is the only answer but I think it is definetly a proven answer. Bow hunting is the best form of deer management available. More bowhunters equals more deer and better quality. Bow hunters will never kill a high percentage of the trophy mule deer in any given area. Even guys willing to shoot a "pisscutter" are not guaranteed a deer with a bow in their hands. In fact traditionally his odds are around 10% which means less deer would be killed by the general tag hunters. Then the guys who get a rifle tag that particular year get a QUALITY hunt. It is very difficult to manage a buck to doe ratio when guys are bombing 2 points and 2 year old deer at 500 yards. Stick bows in those guys hands and watch what happens. Even if they want to shoot a young buck they are going to have to work for it with a bow in their hands. It might not be the most popular approach but it would definelty work!

www.basinarcheryshop.com

 

[MEEW]

10% of 100=10
10% of 200=20
10% of 10,000=1000
more, more, more, where is the end?
When there is no more deer? When we fight over 10 2-points?

 

[ICHABOD]

Its funny that guys say that dedicated hunters are just using the program as a "crutch", when thousands of archery hunters buy their statewide tag after they are unsuccessful in the rifle/muzz draw.
Are there DH-ers that abuse the system? Sure. Just like the archery hunters that wound numerous deer every year, rifle hunters who blast away at deer and dont even go and look for blood, etc. There are those types in every crowd. The DH program, by both its requirements, and harvest limit of 2 deer in the 3 yr program, tends to 'weed' out those who would only use the program for a 'guaranteed tag'.
Once in the program, those hunters who only want to punch their tag quickly realize that they are paying a pretty high price for that forky. Many of these hunters realize that by simply buying a statewide archery tag not only guarantees them a tag every year, but they can kill a forky EVERY year, and not have to complete the DH requirements. Those hunters dont re-join.
I think that as the DH program has matured, the number of what I will call "true DH'ers" has increased, while the so-called "crutch hunters" has decreased. Those that re-join over and over are the hunters that very rarely harvest a deer; and when they do it usually is a mature buck. I have just completed my 9th year as a DH'er, and will sign up again if I am able. I have harvested 3 bucks in those 9 years: all mature bucks. I dont join the DH program to be guaranteed a tag; In fact, I am one of those 4,000 or so Hunters who were insightful enough to buy a lifetime licence. lol! As a lifetime license holder, I am guaranteed a tag every year, and am confident that I could kill a decent buck just about every year, if I just wanted to punch my tag.
I forfeit my lifetime tag every year to be a part of the DH program. I truly believe that the number of "true DH'ers far outways they number of "crutch hunters". I also feel that the DH program has had, and continues to have, a HUGE impact for good.
I also dont buy the argument about the "increased pressure". Particularly when this argument comes from those advocating increased archery tags as a management tool. I dont have anything against archers; in fact, I am an archer at heart. It is my favorite hunt. But if the increased pressure from archery hunters wont hurt the deer herds I can hardly understand how the perceived increased pressure from DH'ers will.
And lastly, to those that complain about the DH'ers as being "a select group" that have an unfair advantage; WAH! Quit your whining and join the program. I must concede that you are partially right though...
Dedicated hunters ARE a "select group".

------------------------------------------------------
"Yeah, I'll shoot him"

 

[MTQuivers]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-08 AT 00:49AM (MST)[p]I was not trying to argue with anyone just simply state my opinion. I think the wasatch is proof that archery pressure does not compare to rifle/muzzy pressure. You take two equal areas in any part of this state and put 5,000 rifle hunters in one area and 10,000 archers in the other and in 5 years the archery area is a trophy unit and the rifle area is hunted out and probably looks a lot like our general deer hunts today. The proof is on the wasatch unit. Tons off pressure yet quality bucks every year. Even with the wounded animals archery hunters hit and dont recover the overall number of animals killed is much higher in rifle areas.

That being said I am proposing this for the general rifle hunts to improve. I am very happy with our current bowhunting opportunities and I may be lynched by some archers for even suggesting rifle hunting in bow only areas like the wasatch. I have nothing to gain. I like archery hunting on the wasatch and in other general season areas in the state. I think there is plenty of opportunity for committed archery guys. I just think more archery areas with limited draws in them would increase the trophy quality of these areas. As an archer I can already hunt statewide and so I am not trying to get more places to hunt by suggesting this but rather expressing ways I think we could improve the overall herd. Of course some will not like the suggestion but no one could argue that it would work VERY WELL if implemented.

P.S. When I talked about it being a crutch I was referring to archery hunters. I know several that do just that.

www.basinarcheryshop.com

 

[MTQuivers]

Rifle success rate is much higher 20-30%

so with your equation....
20% of 100 = 20
20% of 200 = 40
20% of 10,000 = 2000

Of course more bowhunters means more bowkills but it also mean less rifle hunters and that means less deer are shot in the area. This would improve deer numbers and quality and make for better rifle hunting in those areas as well.

www.basinarcheryshop.com

 

[JREDBUCK]

The DH program is the best thing that the DWR has ever come up with period. A hunter donates time, gives them more money, take less deer on an average. And yet the biggest complaint is that the Southern unit is seeing more hunters on the muzzy hunt. That is a weak arguement.

 

[Daxter]

I am still waiting for someone to tell me how the extra "pressure" from a group of hunters that kill proportionally fewer deer than general tag holders is hurting the deer herds. For once, I totally agree with what Bobcatbess has to say. Eliminating the DH program will mean more bucks dead every fall, and less labor and money available for habitat work. Tell me how that does anything to help solve deer problems in Utah.

 

[cabinfever]

Daxter

>I am still waiting for someone to tell me how the >extra "pressure" from a group of hunters that kill >proportionally fewer deer than general tag holders is hurting >the deer herds

The DH program is not responsible for more deer being killed, it's the overcrowding issue that is a problem. It's definately a double edge sword!

Mike

 

[1muleman]

If the dedicated hunters are so detramental to an area, then why is the southern unit doing better than the other units, and it has the majority of the dedicated hunters. um I wonder, Cause it is an affective tool at letting bucks get age!!!!!!!!! The Dedicated hunters also care more about the animals their hunting!

 

[buglinbilly]

Just to clarify my position, this has nothing whatsoever to do with archers versus rifle hunters. It has everything to do with being fair to the general population of hunters who want to hunt and giving them a chance, rather than giving the ?select group ? of 10,000 hunters three different seasons and then if they don't fill their tag basically a 4th by letting them hunt the extended archery areas.

And just to set the records straight let it be know that rifle hunters wound more game percentage wise than do bow hunters. Be you a rifle hunter, bow hunter, or muzzle loader, one needs to learn to honor and respect the game they hunt and refrain from long or high risk wounding shots. But that's another subject I will debate with anyone, but not on this thread.

I will be 68 years old my next birthday. I've been hunting since I was a very young boy. It happens to be my very favorite passion. I was fortunate enough hunt to through the glory days, when mule deer populations were at their height. It was nothing to see 50 bucks in a mornings hunt. On a bad morning you might only see 20. And of those seen, more were big than small. And that was not on some limited entry unit, it was just in general areas, as they didn't have limited entry areas at that time. There was no need at that time, as deer were numerous. Such is not the case today.

Many years ago I made annual backpack trip into the road less area of the Bookcliffs to hunt mule deer. I was never fortunate enough to hunt the Books in their glory days, but even when I first hunted there, it was great. But I watched as a once great area began to faultier, as deer numbers dropped and buck quality dwindled.


The Division suggested, for the first time, in limiting the number of hunters who could hunt the Bookcliffs and warned about the catastrophe that was immanent if the proposal was not implemented. The cry and the outrage from hunters, who considered the ?Bookcliffs? their area, was overwhelming. In fact it (public opposition) was so overpowering the recommendation was tabled and the general hunt continued for several more years.

When the Division?s forecast finally came to be, the herd was decimated and in shambles and the hunt had to be completely closed for years, opening some years later as a limited entry unit.

Basically the same thing happened on Elkridge, in the San Juans. Once one of Utah?s truly great deer areas, it now is just a fraction of what it once was.

Slowly but methodically the same process is happening to Utah?s mule deer herds across the state. As time passes there will less deer, less habitat, and less opportunity. I predict that within 10 years the state will no longer be able to offer a general hunt.

At the same time our deer herds and hunting opportunity decrease, the number that will want to hunt will increase. Thus I hope someone will have the foresight to recognize what is happening and do something constructive about it. It will require sacrifice from all and I think a good place to start is with the DH program. Choose the season you most prefer and let someone else that wants to hunt have their chance too.

Although I know this post is way too long, I just want to add for many of you who don't understand or were too young to know, a bit about the lifetime license and what has happened to that program during the passing of time.

When that program first began, few hunters took advantage of it, as the cost, to most, was prohibitive. It guaranteed that one would receive a combination license for the length of their life. It also allowed one to move out of the state but still receive the license and at the same time, purchase other Utah big game licenses for resident fees. In the early years of that program it allowed a LT license holder to hunt all three seasons. But within a short time those holding the license were told they could no longer purchase Utah licenses at resident fees if they left the state. Not many years later, those holding those licenses were told they had to choose a weapon and could no longer hunt all three seasons. So be it known, as the resource changed, those holding lifetime licenses lost and were ask to sacrifice many of the privileges of the original program. Most did it without a fight or compliant, knowing and understanding it was best for the resource.

I predict the DH program, will soon be a thing of the past, as conditions, much like what forced closure of the Bookcliffs, will in time, end the program.

So choose your weapon, do your part, and give others who can't hunt, under the present system, their opportunity. It's time we give more and take less. In the long run it will be best for all.

Have a good one. BB

 

[Buckriser]

10,000 DH + $190 = 1.9 Million $$$ + 240,000 man hours given to the DWR + fewer deer being taken. Give me a break, no way the DWR get rid of a program like this. Sounds to me that the only complaint is the "pressure" on the deer herds. Someone is just P-O'd that people are hunting in the same area as them.

 

[1muleman]

I don't get it dedicated hunters kill less deer period and the ones they kill usually are older bucks. If you give that same tag to a general rifle hunter bam another forkie down the drain, which in return means less mature bucks.
And by the way the book cliffs were not destroyed by hunters, The lions got way out of hand like they did in the rest of the state. Hunters didn't shoot all of the does off that unit. The lions ate them. Just my two cents!!!!

 

[utahheadgear]

Why don't those of you opposed to the Dedicated Hunter program go beat your head against a brick wall a few times and see if you can't get those crossed wires in your brain back to normal. Sheesh!

It is a GREAT program and expanding it would probably be more along the correct way of thinking.

 

[MTQuivers]

I would like to know how many of the people defending the Dedicated program are actual dedicated hunters. I beleive that most people defending the program are the people who are doing it. Of course you are for it that is why you do it. Of course you are not going to agree with anyone who says it is not a good thing for our deer herd, but that doesn't mean that it does not need to be rethought and it does not mean it is necessarily the best thing for our deer herd. That is like walking into an AA meeting saying you are going to get rid of alcohol. There isn't going to be much support. Lets hear from some people who are not dedicated hunters and lets hear their honest opinions and evaluations. Good or Bad!

www.basinarcheryshop.com

 

[Dblunger]

You're an idiot bobcat...it's guys like you that are ruining the hunting world.....Grow up

 

[Dblunger]

Bobcat.....

Grow up, you are yuppie poser.....probably ride the roads on your wheeler with your crack hangin outta your wranglers and a beer in your hand....true dedication

 

[ICHABOD]

You guys are nuts.
This isnt like walking into an AA meeting and saying you want to get rid of alcohol. Its like walking into an AA meeting and saying you want to do away with the sponsors!
You guys just dont get it. There is NOT a downside to this program. The argument about increased presure is bogus. You guys can join the program if you want to. There is not a "select group" as you keep saying. There is a cap of 10000 hunters, that is revolving every year. As hunters leave the program, others can join. You are comlpaining about 10000 hunters in Utah who have agreed to only harvest two deer in a three year period! Who pay more fees than the average hunter! And who through service hours do more as a whole to help the deer herds in Utah than all the other hunters combined!
And you think this program is detrimental to the deer herds?
UNBELIEVABLE!
Maybe those who think it is "unfair" that DH'ers get to hunt all three seasons should get up off of the Lazy-boy, pony up some extra dough, offer your 24 hours or more of service to the DWR, and take advantage of the system like the rest of us bastages....

------------------------------------------------------
"Yeah, I'll shoot him"

 

[ICHABOD]

Buglinbilly said:
"So choose your weapon, do your part, and give others who can't hunt, under the present system, their opportunity. It's time we give more and take less. In the long run it will be best for all".
And yet he cant see that this is EXACTLY what the DH program does...give more and take less...Hmmmm
------------------------------------------------------
"Yeah, I'll shoot him"

 

[buglinbilly]

If you really want to give more and take less, then do your work hours for the Division, don't be guaranteed a certain region tag, choose which weapon you want to hunt with. And give others a chance that presently isn't available. That would be giving more and taking less, if that is what you guys are really about!

All this talk about you guys killing less and taking less and wanting less is pure hogwash. Most guys are in that program to get guaranteed tags and a region of their choice. I understand and can accept that. But listening to you guys say you kill less than others is simply conjecture and implying that your doing this out of the goodness of your hearts is simply not true. You are in it because it's best for your interests, not because it's best for the resource or for other sportsman. At least call a spade a spade!

Under today?s conditions it's time for that program to be axed!

Have a good one. BB

 

[MTQuivers]

I would still like to hear from someone who is not in the dedicated program. When I made the AA comment first of all it was a joke and secondly I was simply saying that it is pretty obvious that members of the dedicated program support it and despise anyone who says otherwise. I would just like to hear some constructive discussion from outsiders who are not part of the program and what they think about it. I am not personally 100% for or against it but I think it needs to be evaluated closely. Does anyone who is not a DH have an opinion? Let hear from you.

www.basinarcheryshop.com

 

[MEEW]

So BB you want us to do our hours and then be in the same boat as you except you don't have to do any hours....we are giving... hours, time, money, and not to mention no matter which way you subtract 2 out of 3 still leaves 1... I guess I don't understand......

 

[ICHABOD]

Buglinbilly,
You are SO WRONG.
You assume way too much.
For your information, As I have said before, I have a lifetime license. I am guaranteed a tag in the region of my choice EVERY year. And yet still, I volunteer my time; In fact, I do an average of 24 DH service hours EVERY year. And dont tell me that I am the exception. I personally know more than just a handful of guys that do probably twice as many hours as I do.

The guys that are in the program JUST to be guaranteed a tag are the EXCEPTION, not the rule.

You say to "give others a chance that isn't currently available." What do you mean? Why dont these "others" just join the program? It's as available to them as it is to me!

And please BB, explain to me how it's in MY best interest to reject my lifetime license tag three years in a row, to enter a program that requires me to do 24 hours of service, and only allows me to harvest 2 deer instead of three?
Like it or not, there are a lot of DH'ers that ARE doing it "out of the goodness of their hearts", and because it IS whats best for the resource. Do I enjoy being able to spend more time in the field? ABSOLUTELY! And for that opportunity, I volunteer my time and resources to the DWR three days a year, and give up the opportunity to harvest a deer one year. And you are calling me SELFISH?

And finally, it is not "conjecture" that Dh'ers kill less deer. It is a fact. By rule we are only allowed to kill two deer in a three year period. Do the math. It isn't really that hard. The success rate of DH'ers is lower than the success rate of rifle hunters. How can that be? Dh'ers hunt all three seasons!
DUH! There are 10,000 hunters that are more selective than the average hunter, and are guaranteed to NOT harvest ANY deer one year out of three.
Even a fool should be able to understand this.
------------------------------------------------------
"Yeah, I'll shoot him"

 

[MEEW]

+ 1 ICHABOD...you keep em in line, and hopefully the light will turn on some day

 

[alp75]

+2 ICHABOD

I am a dedicated hunter because I like to hunt and spend time in the field. I also like to contribute to wildlife and habitat. I don't have to take a deer and have only taken one in three years. Some of the reasons I joined the dh program are selfish and some are selfless. But I paid the price (cost + hours less one tag)to join just like anyone else can(everyone has an opportunity). So either buck up, do the work, pay the fee and join or shut up. I am tired of hearing you whine about this program not being fair. If you don't have the opportunity to join like all the others then it might not be fair. But you do have the opportunity so buck up or shut up.

 

[StrictlyArrows]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-09-08 AT 04:40PM (MST)[p]I feel that it's time if they're going to keep the DH program, which they will, that they shouldn't be allowed to hunt the extended seasons. Leave the extended areas to the Serious hunters. I know a lot of people in the DH and they are opportunists. They use the bowhunt as a way to do scouting for muzz and rifle. There is talk that the statewide hunt is resulting in overcrowding of certain regions. Take away the DH, that's more of an impact as far as overcrowding is concerned, and I don't want to hear about how you don't kill your deer most years. That's because of the lack of nice critters, not your caring so much, that you simply do not pull the trigger. In my opinion, choose your weapon. I doubt we'll get rid of the DH, but lets at least admit to ourselves that they shouldn't be able to hunt the extended seasons, leave that up to the serious bowhunters, not the weekend warriors.

 

[alp75]

stricktly

I was going to go into detail responding to your comments, but truth is I am tired and it's really not worth my time. I've outgrown this thread.

 

[buglinbilly]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-10-08 AT 08:43AM (MST)[p]ICHABOD, I commend you and many others in the dedicated hunter program for what they give. I understand there are some who give much more than they take, but I stand by my statements, and find many of your statements to be false and erroneous.

There are no records available on the DH program which show or breakdown the kill of that program when compared to the general hunt. There are only personal experiences with which to support your statements and they carry no creditable weight.

If the program has such noble and giving participants as those posting here suggests, then those same individuals should willing be grateful to have the opportunity to give more and take less. And that is all I am really asking.

Let's just say we take away the guaranteed region tag and that all DH?s have to apply for the region of their choice and if they fail to draw their first choice, then they move on to their second, third, etc. until they get a region. How many DH do you think would stay in the program? I say very few, because most are in it first for what they receive and a far second, for what they can give back. Mankind by nature is selfish and although there are exceptions to this, that is a true statement. And so is the statement I make about most are in it for what they get out of it, not for what they give. Most do it because there are enough quirks when compared to what they have to give. I know there are a few exceptions, but a very large, and I mean large majority, do it for what they get and not for what they have to give! And that's a fact.

Another fact is Utah will soon be going to a state wide limited entry system as there are too many hunters for too few deer. Why must we ride an already lame horse into the ground? Are we so blind as not to learn from the past as to what is going to happen in the future, if we continue to be so greedy? Do any of you folks understand the REAL problems we are facing with the MULE DEER and its long term outlook? Do you understand others who presently can't even hunt one season, let alone four, would like to participate too? The time has come to ax the program, it a model T that just doesn't belong on today?s? freeways!

Have a good one. BB

 

[2_Point]

Buglin'- Are you a lifetime license holder? If so, are you willing to give it back, allowing everyone to be on the same playing ground?

F&G statistics show that the general rifle season has a success rate in the low 30%s. General archery has success rates around 20%. Dedicated hunter success in the low 20%s. Dedicated tags save 1,000 bucks a year, 10% harvest difference on 10,000 tags.

If the tags were to go back into the draw they would be rifle or muzzleloader tags.

The F&G would loose $millions in man hours. The F&G would loose millions in federal funding. The F&G would loose millions in license funds.

Those are the facts so how does the F&G compensate for the losses if the program were to end? No sarcastic responses about why wouldn't people continue to donate....

 

[1muleman]

Bugle boy what do you contribute back to the deer and what do others contribute back to deer that aren't in the program. Buck up and do something instead of complain about the people that are allready doing something. Donate some time and effort and quite whining!!!!

 

[nebo12000]

BB-- Until and if I can be shown that the DH program is detrimental to wildlife and is the cause for poor hunting in some areas or is not benefical to wildlife management (including revenue) I will never vote to discontinue the program. I am in it because I love to be involved in wildlife conservation. I was number 00011 at the initial sign up meeting several years ago. In all the years since it started I have punched my tag exactly 0 (ZERO) times. It has been one of the best programs to get hunters involved in conservation that the DWR has started. I have always hunted the Central Region --good bad or otherwise. I will work to keep the program intact and will support changes only as needed to bring about better conservation efforts for wildlife. Central Region RAC member at large-- Richard Hansen

 

[utahheadgear]

There is a scary similarity between those opposed to the Dedicated hunter program on this thread and the Flaming Liberal Democrats that are in the process of ruining our country....

They want to do and pay nothing extra, complain about what those that do something extra and pay extra get, and then try to find a way to take those hard earned benefits away from those that worked to get them so that the worthless bastards that don't lift a finger get the same opportunity.

Give me a break!!

 

[buglinbilly]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-10-08 AT 01:22PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-10-08 AT 01:12?PM (MST)

Give me a beak too!

Just for your information I have been self employed almost all my life. I have never taken one dime from unemployment or received one penny from any type of welfare system, and that includes wildlife licenses. Keep the topic to why the program should stay or go and not to liberal or conservative politics. My thoughts have nothing to do with that garbage. Keep on track if that's possible!

And yes I am a lifetime license holder, as is my 26 year old son. I was one of the first 150 persons to ever purchase a LT license and bought my son one long before he ever went to school or I knew that he would ever be interested in hunting. I wasn?t one of the ones who jumped on the bandwagon at the last minute so I could be assured a tag like over half the people did before they closed the program.

When I purchased my lifetime license I was allowed to hunt all three seasons or until I filled my tag statewide. But as things changed and the resource got in trouble, I gave back the right to hunt all three hunts statewide and choose the method with the least impact on the deer, archery!

The Division rewrote the contract and I voluntarily agreed to give up two methods of hunting, although I had already paid my money. Are you guys willing to do the same?

How many of you would be willing give up the rifle and muzzle loader hunts and just take the archery hunt as long as you could choose your region? I dare say very few, as most of you are in it for what it does for you, not what you do for the resource. So please don't use that EXCUSE anymore. It simply isn't fact. It might sound good to you, but most non dedicated hunters reading this thread understands why you are really in the program! No more hogwash please!


And to answer a few questions I have been involved Utah?s wildlife for many years, much longer than many of you have been a live. I do wildlife enhancement projects every year and have for many years. I spend countless hours on bowhunter education to educate and inform many of the aspects of bowhunting. I work hard to promote bow hunting?s image and try to influence other bow hunters to learn how to hunt with a bow and stress the importance of close shoots and fast kills and encourage all to practice and refrain from long, low percentage shots.

I choose bowhunting because for me, it requires more skill, more dedication and by far, has less impact on the resource. I did not choose my weapon because it gave me the best chance of killing a critter.

Although I am not a DH, I think I am far more dedicated than most in the DH program and far more concerned about the future of Utah?s deer herds. They are in big trouble and unless we do something swift, fast and well thought-out, not only will that program be axed, but so will mule deer hunting as we know it.

I think there are far better ways to get people to do service hours, for our wildlife, than to guarantee them a tag and a region. And certainly more fair too.

Have a good one. BB

 

[nebo12000]

BB- Do you think that doing away with the DH program would enhance your opportunity ? I love to bowhunt, but of any hunt there is, it no doubt provides more opportunity to get out and hunt than any other single method, and I believe thats fair. It is a very tough but satisfying way to hunt. You may feel that by doing away with the DH program it would enhance your opportunities,but it is important to realize that without the revenue and support from rifle, muzzy or DH, the task of improving our herds becomes more difficult. To say that the DH program will always stay the same wouldn't make any sense either. If changes in hunter numbers, number of hunting days etc. have to change, then every weapon type should share in the decrease of opportunity and season length. There is still some opportunity to increase herd sizes, quality issues etc. within the state but it will take some sacrifice from all hunters- not just a certain segment. Hopefully, some of that can get done as the RAC process goes forward, but I don't beleive that the DH program is any where near the number one culprit in hunting quality or opportunity.

 

[2_Point]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-10-08 AT 01:52PM (MST)[p]Buglin'- You state that you are a bow hunter, bow ed teacher, and bow lobbist. It seems that this idea you are presenting is more self-serving than mule deer serving. The service you list towards the resource does not benefit the resource. It benefits one small fraction of the hunting community, archers. Archery takes 16,000 tags out the draw and gives them to only those capable of archery hunting. By reducing 10,000 archery tags through axing the dedicated hunter program, you are reducing the problem of crowding in the southern region. Yet archers state there is no over crowding.

You want to put 10,000 tags back into the draw when those 10,000 tags will kill more deer in the hands of the general public than in the hands of dedicated hunters. Simply putting 10,000 tags back into the draw will cause 1,000 more bucks to be killed.

Finally, in one of your previous posts, you stated something along the lines of dedicated hunters taking too many tags away from draw applicants. Yet you are doing the same. You state that everyone should do work and give up their program, while you see fit to keep your lifetime license.

Mule deer are struggling across the west. I highly doubt dedicated hunters are the cause.

 

[utahheadgear]

Buglin',

I don't believe that people out hunting is the reason that deer are having trouble. It MIGHT be the people out shooting deer that are causing the problem, and I emphasize MIGHT(that is another subject). Dedicated hunters are definately out hunting, but they are not the ones shooting all the deer. Which is exactly why it is such a great program. It allows a person interested in doing more HUNTING the chance to do so as long as they are okay with doing less SHOOTING. Oh, and they have to pay more and work with their own hands to conserve the resourse as well....

It is a win for the deer and a win for the HUNTERS.

SHOOTERS need not apply. They can put in for a general tag of their choice.

And for your information, I am not currently a dedicated hunter. They sold out before I renewed this year and I missed my shot. So... I got an archery tag. Why? For the same reason I like the DH program. I get to do more HUNTING than any of the other seasons offer. The SHOOTING takes a distant back seat.

 

[StrictlyArrows]

Rifle Southern Region, 2006: 48.5% kill.

Rifle Southeast Region, 2006: 41% kill.

Rifle Central Region, 2006: 37% kill.

Rifle Northern Region, 2006: 30% kill.

Rifle Northeastern Region, 2006: 37.7% kill.

Averages to about 38% kill for rifle hunting.

Archery, statewide: 22% kill.

Archery season this year Aug. 16-Nov.30

With a much longer season, the kill rate is still a lot less with archery tackle.
Take the 10,000 tags and put 50% in the archery pool, and 50% in the muzzy pool.
Archery is the only way to have more opportunity, and more animals. Those are the facts 2 point. There is a lot more facing the mule deer today in Utah. With an ever increasing population, a certain percentage of the newcomers are hunters. Archery is the ONLY way to have more animals, with more opportunity. I'm not advocating the removal of the rifle or muzzy hunts. I'm advocating that with the certain conditions in Utah, we need more ARCHERY ONLY areas, for the benefit of the herds. You WILL sell the tags, if that's what there is to buy, people will buy them. Choose your weapon. As for the overcrowding issue, I don't believe there is one for the simple fact that over double the rifle tags are available in the So. region. Half the bowhunters are overcrowding the region, but double the rifle hunters are not? Come on, give me a break.
If the So. region feels there is an overcrowding problem, then eliminate the DH program, over crowding solved. Leave the regular guys who have ONLY an archery tag, let them hunt the region, they're the ones who are willing to choose a weapon. And for everyone's information, I ONLY bowhunt, so joining your program would not interest me in the least, so I don't want to hear about me having the same opportunity. But in all reality, at the very least lets not allow the DH to hunt the extended seasons.

 

[buglinbilly]

As much as most of you are against giving up your dedicated hunter tags, you are also against listening to what I am trying to say.

I realize the DH program is not the cause of the mule deer population crash. That would be foolish thinking, much like thinking it's that program that will save mule deer hunting. Both assumptions are preposterous.

And no I am not trying to eliminate the number of archer?s, I am in fact, trying to increase those numbers (opportunity), while at the same time trying to decrease the methods, which historically take most of the critters, that being rifle hunting first and muzzle loaders second.

Let's make the DH program, a program where by you can hunt all three seasons and the extended area, but must do all your hunting with a bow. I would be for that wholeheartedly. That way you guys can still do your volunteerism, still get the same time in the woods, but the total kill would be reduced and that is exactly what I'm after. That and more opportunity is what I would really like to see happen.

How would that affect my personal bowhunting? I doubt very little. I am willing to have 10,000 additional bow hunters in the field. I personally think we need to limit the rifle hunters more, and let more people hunt with bows and muzzleloaders. I would welcome that change.

So to set the record straight, I would like to see more opportunity, with less harvest and better quality. That can't be done with today?s deer herds by expanding rifle opportunity. It just isn't possible. I know that offends many, but that is just the way it is! With today's herds we must limit rifle hunting opportunity, as sad as that sounds, while at the same time increasing habitat enhancement and predator control.


Have a good one. BB

 

[ICHABOD]

BB,
This will be my last post in response to your ignorance on this subject.
You make me laugh.
I think you have been exposed! lol!
Now you are even attacking those who didn't buy a lifetime license BEFORE you did! HA!
You are trying to make yourself out to be such an altruistic and giving person by "voluntarily giving up two methods of hunting". HA!
Your lifetime license (and mine as well), gives you the right to fish, hunt small game, and guarantees you one buck tag per year. When the Division makes changes to the hunting laws, you are still guaranteed one buck tag per year, period. You used to be able to hunt all three hunts, now you need to choose one. Right now you can choose your region and weapon of choice; but there is NO GUARANTEE that that will continue. There may come a day when you (and I) wont be given the luxury of picking a region; but we we still be guaranteed a buck tag. I suppose you'll "voluntarily" give up your region choice then? LOL! When the Division changed the law, You "voluntarily" had no choice! lol

You ask how many of us would give up the muzzy and rifle hunt to just hunt archery...lol! Obviously none of us! DOH! We could do that right now by buying a statewide archery tag! lol! (Which, by the way, would allow us to kill a deer EVERY year without doing service hours.)

I personally dont care one way or the other if DH'ers can hunt the extended archery hunt. They can right now because EVERY archery tag is a statewide tag. If they do away with the statewide archery tag next year it will be a mute point.

I'm sure you are an alright guy BB, but you are barking up the wrong tree here. I get that a lot of people dont really understand the DH program and how it works, but as post after post above has stated, it is THE BEST program that the DWR has going right now.

Finally, you keep preaching that we DH'ers are only in it for the guaranteed tag in the region of our choice; and that we should give that up for the unfortunate who haven't hunted for 4 years....and all the while you are sitting on a GUARANTEED Lifetime tag in the region of YOUR choice! LOL!
Like I said, I think you are exposed!
PRICELESS!!
------------------------------------------------------
"Yeah, I'll shoot him"

 

[ICHABOD]

Sorry BB, I said I was done posting, but after your last post I must respond.
You now say you dont mind us hunting all three seasons, but just with a bow.
BB, Two deer killed within a 3 year period (one with a rifle, one with a muzzy) = 2 dead deer.
Two deer killed within a 3 year period (both with a bow) = 2 dead deer.
There is no difference in the impact on the resource; except maybe a few extra wounded deer a year.
(By the way, three deer killed within a 3 year period (all three with a bow) = 3 dead deer.)
I understand your motives in expanding archery opportunities...but attacking the ONE program in which the hunters are CONTRIBUTING to the resource is simply not the answer.


------------------------------------------------------
"Yeah, I'll shoot him"

 

[utahheadgear]

Buglin',

You stated in your last post:

"So to set the record straight, I would like to see more opportunity, with less harvest and better quality."

This is exactly what the DH program does, so I would suggest that you may be barking up the wrong tree.

I will say again, dedicated hunters are HUNTING, but they are not the ones doing the SHOOTING. That burden lies with the general rifle hunters in large percentage, and MAY need to be addressed. However, I think some creativity could both increase the number of available deer tags AND improve the herds. Archery hunting is one of those means without a doubt and it should be expanded, but the DH program is another pretty good idea, which is what you are missing.

Have a good one.

 

[peakfreak]

It gets old seeing and hearing bow hunters wanting to "spread the tag wealth" by wanting to take from the rifle and muzz to create more opportunity for them(archery). Sounds like the direction Obama would go...less guns equals more opportunity for who? I wonder if it will end up the archery party against the rifle party some day. Looks to be heading that way on MM.

 

[MBM]

I am not sure if I agree with the DH program going away or not. After being in it for 9 years and killing 3 deer I am not sure if I will join again next year.

Before I joined the DH program 9 years ago I mainly archery hunted. The last four years I just archery hunted I killed three deer in those four years. I joined the program not to get a tag in the region of my choice (I am a Lifetime Liecence holder) but to spend more time in the field, give me more of a reason to hold out and not shoot a smaller buck, and to have a chance to hunt with other members of my family who didn't bowhunt.

There are several reasons why I am considering not rejoining, lack of time is probley the main one. Both time to hunt and time to do the service hours. I think I just want to concentrate on archery (my first love orfthe three weapon choices) and concentrate on killing more deer with archery tackle. At least in my case not doing the DH program will not save any more deer as I will probley not be as picky as I was while in the DH program. I can guarantee I will not go 3 deer in 9 years while just doing the bowhunt.

Mark

 

[MEEW]

Good point MBM. There again the facts, unwritten, ofcourse come out. The DH program forces you to be more picky, therefore taking less deer...BB is this not what we were after partly, give him back his general deer tag and more deer die. As far as I can see the dedicated hunter program is doing its job. Of course there are exceptions, but for the most part, DHers are helping utahs deer, more than ANYTHING or ANYONE else..Find a better, more beneficial program and then we can decide. Until then lets not do away with the one program that is actually helping.

 

[carbonnation]

BB I understand your points. You think that other people should be allowed more opportunities to hunt. DH's as you see it, take there tags..........but I think that you miss the forest for the trees.
You ask us to give up more for the greater good, problem is that we end up giving "more" to those who give nothing. Most hunters out there are not involved and don't volunteer there time or money to the "greater good". IF someone is willing to donate there time and money to better wildlife, then they can have my permit..I'll sit out a year for that guy.

My advice to those who are upset about not drawing a tag is to apply to be a DH, pay your fee, put in your hours, get involved. It is not a select group of people who get kick backs, anyone who is willing can join. Don't cry for me argentina!

I just want to be friends.