Big Game Forever Ryan Benson

J

juliusvatalaro

Guest
Montana/Molloy wolf settlement announcement. What does it mean?
Important Big Game Forever updates from last week!

Policy vs. Politics: Getting Past the Rhetoric and False Promises of Wolf Delisting
As many of you are already aware, there were some major developments on the wolf delisting front last week. The government dropped it's appeal of Judge Johnson?s ruling in favor of Wyoming?s wolf plan. 9 of 13 environmental plaintiff?s settled out of the Molloy decision which could mean a wolf hunt for Idaho and Montana next season (if accepted by the Judge).

What does it all mean? Are we on the right track?

What this all shows is that the effort of Big Game Forever, sportsmen from across the country, and other partner organizations is making a huge difference. Leaders in Congress have wolf delisting high on their priority lists. Press releases directed to settlement proposals announced last week all included references to increasing pressure in Congress. Your efforts are making the key difference.

This article spells out why some proposed wolf-delisting bills are very good and some are very bad. There are efforts to use our urgency to get wolves delisted to pass some bills that will be bad for the future of hunting. We explain simple tests to understand the difference between a short-term promise and a long-term solution. We also explain how business as usual will not fix the wolf problem. Finally, the article talks about the type of effort required to overcome years of ambivalence about the future of wolves and wildlife in America.

Why did we go to Congress?
I believe all sportsmen support the notion of having a wolf hunt to potentially allow for recovery of some elk, moose and deer herds. However, a wolf hunt isn't enough to provide meaningful recovery of wildlife herds. Nor can the root failures of the wolf experiment be fixed simply by a wolf hunt. To begin restoring balance of wildlife populations in the West and Upper Midwest, state wildlife managers need to be able to do their job. How does that happen?

Short Term Promises vs. Long Term Solutions
Over the last several months, we have seen multiple bills, settlement proposals etc. that have been heralded as ?wolf-delisting.? If you see a promise of wolf delisting, be warned. A lot of these promises are what Representative Cynthia Lummis (R), Wyoming has described as a ?wolf in sheep?s clothing.? Some, if not most of these bills, fall short of providing the long-term solutions needed to fix this mess.

Here is a test to determine whether the proposed ?wolf delisting? is a short-term promise or a long term solution: Does the provision (a) return primacy of state wildlife decision making authority; or does it (b) leave wolf management subject to federal statute and ongoing federal oversight? If wolves remain subject to federal statute, all of the same structural flaws that have led to years of frustration and delays remain firmly in place. This means the government is saying once again, to rely on trust instead of legal protections for the future of proper wolf management. This model has not worked for 20 years. It will not work now.

Here is why State Management vs Federal Control is so Important
State Wildlife Management
States are the only political unit with full jurisdiction to manage ALL wildlife. This applies to game as well as hundreds, and perhaps thousands, of non-game species. The Federal Government doesn't really manage wildlife on its own, but is rather is given limited authority over distinct wildlife issues such as endangered species and migratory waterfowl. State wildlife management provides protection for wildlife while also providing important management flexibility. This flexibility allows states to adjust appropriately to changing circumstances to ensure the health of big game and non-game species.

Federal Control
Federal wildlife statutes by contrast are directed to a limited range of wildlife issues. Most ?federal management activities? are typically fulfilled by state wildlife managers as the ?designated agent.? In most circumstances, when wildlife issues are under federal protections such as the Endangered Species Act, needed flexibility is replaced with restrictions. More importantly, federal statutes provide a powerful tool chest of one-sided litigation provisions for private plaintiffs. Most of these provisions remove flexibility in management decisions by states or the federal government. These restriction and litigation provisions were originally developed for unsuccessful species that do not compete well in their natural environment and tend to have little direct impact on other wildlife populations. More importantly, it was assumed that such provisions would be utilized by private plaintiffs with common sense. This clearly has not been the case with wolves and wolf litigation.

Wolf Hunt vs Restoring Balance
For months we have been talking about Congressional action to ?delist wolves from the Endangered Species act.? What we are really talking about is returning flexibility in management decisions to state wildlife managers. Many feel a federally supervised wolf hunt is a step in the right direction. But much more important than just a wolf hunt is the importance of removing wolves from the difficult and one-sided litigation provisions of federal statute that have led to an endless cycle of litigation. This litigation will continue to prevent state wildlife managers from doing their job. In other words, if we hope to restore balance to game herds, primacy of state wildlife decision-making must also be restored when it comes to wolves. From a practical standpoint, this will not happen as long as: (a) the federal government remains in an oversight role; and (b) the one-sided litigation provisions can be abused by environmental and animal rights litigants. Removing these litigation provisions is a simple as removing wolves from the federal statutes. All state wildlife protections will remain in place for wolves under this scenario.

Understanding the Tester/Baucus/Simpson Bills and Molloy Settlement
Here is a quick application of the litmus test to the ?other? bills. There are three other ?bills? which are often discussed: (1) the Tester/Baucus bill; (2) the Simpson language in the Continuing Resolution (much the same as the Tester/Baucus bill); (3) the Molloy settlement provisions. These bills and almost every other wolf bill we have seen fail to pass the test. In other words, under all of these provisions, wolves remain subject to federal oversight; federal statutes and related litigation provisions. As a result, these bills fail to remove the litany of impediments which have: (1) prevented effective wolf management; and (2) prevented recovery of elk, moose and deer herds. It is important that we do not fall for these promises as ?wolf delisting.? Most of these bills simply mean the state will be managing according to federal approved guidelines. Once again, this does not provide the flexibility state?s need to do their job.

Well intentioned or not, we are once again being asked to ignore the failures of federal statutes. We know federal statutes do not work when it comes to dealing with a capable, resilient and often destructive predator like the wolf. More significantly, many of these bills have underlying ?poison pill? provisions that really are the equivalent of a ?wolf in sheep?s clothing.? For example, the Tester/Baucus/Simpson provisions create the potential for an indefinite wolf listing and remove key safeguards that allow states to challenge such provisions. Additionally, the provision would have the effect of reversing Judge Johnson?s ruling in favor of: (a) state wildlife management supremacy over federal micromanagement; and (b) Wyoming?s wolf management plan. As another example, the Molloy settlement would allow the federal government to undo longstanding agreements related to wolf minimum numbers and also includes other ?poison pills.? All of these provisions ignore the need for Midwestern delisting and protecting other states from a future of wolf problems.

Hatch/Rehberg Bills S. 249 and H.R. 509
The American Big Game and Livestock Protection Act is the only bill, settlement, or compromise that actually passes the test. Under its provisions wolf populations are removed from federal statutes and returned to state wildlife protections. H.R. 509 and S. 249 will allow states to manage wolf populations along with other wildlife in balance and with much needed flexibility. Wolf populations are highly resilient and will do fine under state wildlife management. If numbers fall too low, Congress can once again relist the species. States and Sportsmen will not let that happen. No one wants to go through this mess again.

Allowing Congress to implement a one-time emergency provision for wolves is good public policy. Most experts agree that the wolf is one ?endangered species? that does not fit the policy rationales underlying the Endangered Species Act. Some in Congress are using the rhetoric that ?we are trying to gut the ESA.? The purpose of the ESA is to recover endangered species. While wolves have never been globally endangered, even local recovery goals were accomplished years and years ago.

Congressional wolf delisting in fact protects the ESA. First, it protects the ESA by fulfilling the promises that delisting will follow recovery. Second, congressional delisting protects the ESA from abuses of the environmental groups. These groups are now using the ESA for personal gain rather than for its intended purposes. The resultant delays in delisting are actually harming wildlife. Talk about turning things upside down. These abuses are the real challenge to credibility of the Endangered Species Act in the eyes of the public and elected officials.

Business as usual
The leaders of Big Game Forever have been through many political battles that others have said could not be won. We know that business as usual will not work when it comes to wolves. The anti-hunting groups and some key officials in the Obama administration do not want decision making and flexibility over wolf management returned to the states. They do not want us to work together. They know that if we do work together we are difficult, if not impossible, to beat. Business as usual is how we have gotten into the mess in the first place. We cannot and we do not intend to win this important political battle on our own. Nor can we afford divisiveness or poor legislative strategy by groups within our own industry. Working together as a nation of United Sportsmen we can provide the necessary support in Congress to get this done. Sportsmen, conservation groups and shooting non-profit organizations raise tens of millions of dollars annually to protect the future of shooting and hunting in this country. It is time for the leaders in wildlife to ?put their money where their mouth is.? There are also tens of millions of dedicated sportsmen in America. If we work together, we have the resources to get wolf delisting done right.

This is a fight for fundamental freedoms. We call on all shooting, livestock and hunting non-profit organizations to stick together and finish the job we started. United we stand. Divided we fall. We call on every sportsmen and every American to get in the fight to protect our hunting heritage and America?s Wildlife. We are much more powerful that many recognize. It is time to flex our collective muscles to protect America?s Big Game and Wildlife Resources.


Now is a great time to send another message to your elected officials. Use our automated system at http://biggameforever.org/takeaction to send a message to your elected officials in support of H.R. 509 and S. 249 to return flexibility and state management authority over America?s wolf populations. Or simply join the effort by signing the petition at http://biggameforever.org/ in support of wolf delisting.


Ryan Benson
http://biggameforever.org/
[email protected]
 
I personally spoke with Jeff Freeman, who is the NRA Federal Lobbyist. He stated that NRA supports now and has always supported the delisting of the Gray wolf and put the management back into the hands of the states. Nothing more and nothing less. Forget any other bulshit that is wandering around out there. Jeff said, "there is a great deal of misinformation going on out there".
 
The question is what bill they support. Washington politics often have lobbyists and Politian?s talking out both their a@# and their mouth. It sounds like if you support state rights, and a true solution you go in all in with Big Game forever, which is still supported by SFW, RMEF, MDF, and the ag groups. If you support more compromise, and more lies, and a federal government with a dismal record of wildlife management, support the groups that are in with the Simpson, Tester legislation. I hope that behind the scenes these groups are not working against a true solution in wolf reform.
Remember Idaho and Montana are not agreeing to control they are just agreeing to very supervised partial control. What happens when wolves wise up and the sportsmen harvests dwindle.
Will the Tester legislation allow Government hunters to remove packs that are detrimental to individual herds, I'm not sure but I doubt it with his office full of aids that are supporters of the Defenders of Wildlife it has these provisions.

.
 
Thanks for the info Julius and fedup.

I agree. The approach SFW and Big game forever, which is comprized of many sportsmen groups,ranching organizations, etc. They are trying to fix the problem long term. There is NO REASON why the federal government should decide how each state should manage their wildlife. Those states are loosing a lot of revenue. Sportsmen and ranchers are paying the bills. The ESA is broken. It needs fixed. Now is the time to fix it. Many states, and state representitives are on board. Let's not fight amoung ourselves.
 
Sounds like the Big Game Forever team is on the right track!
Whether you like the folks or not, they are the ones who are garnering the support for bills that fix the problem, long-term.

I sure hope, as sportsman, we can work together and put all the petty differences aside. All the bit@hing will do no good and probably does a bunch of harm.

I would like to see the wolf issue fixed rather than a bandaid approach. Ryan is on the right track. Thanks!

Zeke
 
I see you have no answer to Fin's posts on the other thread, so you post another one so you can preach to the choir and pass out more cool-aid.

What clout they (BGF, SFW) had, they have thrown out the window. I think they tried to pull off a inside staight, and failed. Good luck on the next hand.



I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
I wish everyone could understand how important this issue is and how vital it is that we stick together to get management back in the hands of the State.
The anti-hunting groups love to see us bicker with each other, but that only serves their agenda!
Thanks to Ryan and BGF for what you are doing.
I support you 100%
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-22-11 AT 11:20AM (MST)[p]Seems to me, that you only want us too stick with you, if we buy off on only one plan, One Bill. If Montana, and Idaho have a solution to our problem, why would SFW,BGF want that to die? The reality is. The two Bill solutions that SFW/BGF are hanging their hats on, are DOA. Sorry but Montana, and Idaho have a real chance at getting past this wolf issue and we're going for it. Each state is independent from the other where wildlife are concerned. Wyoming has made that perfectly clear. I wish Wyoming all the best. You should wish Montana, and Idaho the same.


SFW/BGF are siding with the pro wolf crowd now.





I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
there has been a whole lot more concerned hunters involved than BGF,even though they would like to take all the credit
 
Credit?
I don't think anyone is concerned about credit right now. We all just want a long-range solution and BGF is the proponent who is garnering the support for the fix.... not the bandaid.
Of course there are others who are working hard. This process isn't a one man show.

Our differences continue to divide!

Zeke
 
I don't think there are very many hunters who disagree with the delisting option BGF is pushing. I support that proposal 100%.

The question is whether or not we should swing for the fence chasing a grandslam (full delisting) or take run scoring cingles (ID, MT settlement) along the way. There is a very real danger with the singles approach that you may run out of support before you achieve full delisting. In the meantime, however, you are making some progress in select areas.

There is also real danger in swinging for the fences, as a strikeout in this scenario is devestating. There may be nothing left to save if it takes too long to get the grandslam.

I support all steps along the way to full delisting. I'm not prersuaded that they are a cop-out unless they contain provisions preventing untimate delisting. A careful, thoughful strategy is needed, and I believe we have good people working on the issue. The final goal must be full delisting of the gray wolf. BGF's ego is getting in the way of a clearly enunciated strategy. The ego attacks and preening are distracting instead of keeping the focus where it needs to be - full delisting, with steps along that path.

Bill
 
I have read both of the current threads and comments on this subject. By way of background, I seldom post on these boards. However, I have helped many members by PM with hunting information. I am a 31 year member of the Idaho Bar Association and am also a member of the MDF and NRA. I don't belong to SFW or RMEF. I am now retired and live in a small community in NW Wyoming. I am painfully aware from firsthand experience what the wolves have done in NW Wyoming to the ungulate populations. I am an avid mule deer and elk hunter and have been for quite some time.
I think that the posts and information from juliusvatarlo and Ryan Benson are accurate. I also understand why some people from Idaho and Montana want to get on board with settlement and with the Tester,Baucus and Simpson compromise legislation. They see anything as better than the status quo. It is my belief that passage of HR509 and S249 is the only long term answer to wolf delisting. Yes, there is a chance that this legislation will not pass. Senator Barbara Boxer from California and Senator Ben Cardon from Maryland are doing everything they can to block it. Environmentalists are scared to death it will pass. However, more Senators and Representatives are getting on board each week. My observations and knowledge of Senator Max Baucus, and the timing of his legislation, makes me seriously question his motives. From my observations for the last 4-5 years, John Tester has proven that he will follow along with anything that Max Baucus wants. Although I lived in Idaho for many years, I know little about Mike Simpson. If you wonder if you can trust Max Baucus on the subject of wolf delisting, you might want to be aware of a few facts. First, the President and Ceo of the Defenders of Wildlife (the pro wolf group and major litigant in all this wolf litigation)is Rodger Schlickeisen. Before Mr. Schlickeisen went to work for the Defenders of Wildlife, he was the Chief of Staff for Senator Max Baucus. That is a real coincidence isn't it. Second, look at the Baucus legislative scorecard with the Defenders of Wildlife. He votes their position over and over again. As I recall, at one time, a campaign contribution to Max Baucus would also get you membership in the Defenders of Wildlife. Third, look at who Max Baucus is now recommending as a replacement for our good friend, Judge Malloy (who is going on senior status) as a Federal District Judge in Montana. The new guy is from Kalispel and I understand he is another eco-elite and greenie with few long term ties to Montana. Fourth, look at the character and actions of Max Baucus in recent years. His attempts to get his lover (now his wife) appointed as U.S. Attorney for Montana was nepotism at its worst. His poll numbers in Montana are very low based on polling information published by a recent article in the Billings Gazette. I believe that the Tester/Baucus/Simpson legislation is just a band aid and not a long term solution. It is an attempt to pacify and mislead some sportsman. I believe more litigation and frustration will be the result if it is passed. The wolves need to be delisted through legislation with management turned over to the states. I don't think what Baucus is up to will do that. The eco-elites are already involved in some infighting with some wanting settlement and others not. Recently, some attorneys have withdrawn as representatives for the various environmental groups. All sportsman really need to stick together. Blaming Wyoming for the Malloy decision will only divide all of us. The badmouthing of various other sportsman's organizations takes our eyes off the real goal. A long term solution will be for the benefit of every sportsman in Idaho, Wyoming and Montana. HR 509 and S 249 is that solution. Getting into the blame game will accomplish little.
I just got my copy of "Yellowstone is Dead". Viewing it made my blood boil over the fraud foisted on all of us by the USFWS. All of you should get a copy of it.
 
Mightyhunter,

Thanks for your info and post. Many of us hunters believe the same as you. You have some insights and info that is interesting and validates my research. I sure hope Hr509 and 549 passes. It is gathering a lot of support. Let's keep working together.
 
Mightyhunter

Thanks for the support for such a important issue. I too have watched the video "Yellowstone Dead". At times it was hard for me to hear some of the audio, however when I was done watching it I was ready to go to Washington DC and takes some scalps. I wish those guy's all the luck in the world if they do make it to the US Supreme Court. I did some searching the internet for the various article that support Jim Beers allegations and it was very interesting what I found. I posted here on MM the articles about the USFWS scandal however they removed it. Federal excise tax what a joke.

Julius
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-22-11 AT 03:56PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-22-11 AT 03:54?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Mar-22-11 AT 03:52?PM (MST)

Mightyhunter - those are some very good points, laid out very well.

No one from Montana is going to argue about your analysis of Senator Baucus and his staff connection. He has taken a beating in the polls, coming in with an approval rating of 37% in the last poll.

Yet, this is not about Senator Baucus, good or bad. This is about wolves and the odds of the bills in Congress ever seeing the light of day, and whether or not those that might pass, do any good.

I don't think anyone, on any thread, has stated they want a long-term goal that is anything other than complete state control over wolves and other wildlife. That is a common goal, from what I can see.

The debate as you mention, is what is the way to get there.

Your analogy of baseball is very good. In fact, probably as good of an analogy as I have seen on the topic of these competing bills in Congress.

That really puts it into the analysis you have laid out. Do we go for the fences, or do we take the scoring by singles approach? And do we look at it as and "either-or" approach even knowing that the singles load bases, making the pitcher throw differently, and increasing the odds of the grandslam.

I don't know of anyone who is saying the singles represented by the Simpson language is the end of the game. I sure don't see it as the end of the game. That is what has the wolf plaintiffs wanting a settlement right now.

If we take purely a pragmatic approach to this and ask what has the odds of getting passed right now, the issue becomes easier to digest. The odds of passage cannot be ignored, as passage determines outcomes, and outcomes are what will, or will not, give us the control over wolves that we all want.

With that, one must look at the following events needed for passage.

Do we really think that Senator Boxer is going to let this out of her committee as a stand alone bill, which it is at this time? Probably not.

Let's assume the rare evnet happens and Senator Boxer has some heart enlargement toward hunters and for some strange reason lets the S.249 come to a vote in her committee.

Will it have the votes to pass that committee? Very unlikely. She, other Dems, and urban Republicans hold the votes in that committee.

Agian, let's assume the very unlikely happens and it Boxer lets it come forward and some strange set of events allow S.249 to pass the committee, as written.

Do we think it will then pass the Senate, which is currently controlled by folks less inclined to vote for anything that touches the ESA, as does S.249?

That is not just a Republican or Democrat vote. There are many urban Republicans who are not going to touch the ESA. That is political suicide for them, even if they are a Republican.

Whether we like it or not, the politics of the country are in large part controlled by the views of those in more populated states where the wolf is not creating havoc. In our more rural areas, we have conservative folks with both R and D, who if asked, would vote for S.249 regardless of what side of the aisle they are on.

If we assume S.249 did make it out of committee, hopefully every Senator in the Rockies would vote for it, but not for sure. I know Baucus would, as would Tester. That gives us two Senators from each state of ID, MT, WY, UT, CO, NM, NV, AZ. That is 16 votes.

Where else are the votes going to come from? Not much help from MN, WI, or MI, states that have wolves. Not urban states of NY, CA, PA, WA, FL, MD, VA. Maybe the Dakotas, TX, OK, AK, NE, KS will vote for it. Ok, that is 14 more votes in the Senate. Best case, we optimistically up to 30. We need 51.

Even to get to this point is very unlikely, but if we do, we are way short of the needed votes.

So where are we going to pick up enough votes to get it out of the Senate, when even urban conservatives will sell us out in their effort to keep their seats? We probably are not going to get those votes.

But, let's assume a miracle happens in the Senate. Take it to the next step that it gets out of the Senate. I think most are confident it would pass the House with the current House make up. It then goes to the President.

Does anyone on this board think the President will sign that bill? If so, they have more regard for his respect of hunters and wildlife managers than I do.

And if we assume that the President vetos the bill, where are the votes going to come to over ride that veto? Answer is that they are not.

Don't get me wrong. I have stated what most every hunter in MT and ID feel - we want S.249 to pass. But, it ain't happening. At least not in this political sphere.

When we look at the trail of highly unlikely scenarios that we are dealing with, the odds of passage of S.249 is bleak. Very bleak. That is not a statement of BGF/SFW. A mere fact of what we are up against in trying to change the ESA.

If someone else sees a way to get S.249 passed, I would be interested in hearing it. And just saying it has 61 co-sponsors is not that solution. I am interested in real possibilities, not rhetoric.

Whether we like it or not, the majority of America likes the ESA, likes wolves, and could not give a damn about our plight and their politicians are going to look at that when they decide how to vote on anything that touches the ESA, like S.249.

In this discussion it is not Rs and Ds. It is urban and rural. We can count on the R and D votes in our states for S.249. We have neither the R or D vote in most other places. Just a fact of life.

Some will say that if it is not passed, then we get those bastards thrown out. Pretty sure we are all on board with that one. The bastards we need thrown out don't live where we do. Our guys would vote for S.249.

So, how do I, living in MT, get some wingnut from Michigan thrown out? Some Senator from IL who is a function of Chicago politics. How do I remove the CA Senator from San Fran? Answer is - I can't, as much as I would like to.

If the economy recovers even slightly, the President will most likely get re-elected, if history is any indicator. As hard as that is for us in the conservative West to believe, he is a rock star in the states where votes are plentiful.

If the economy recovers even slightly, the Democrats will increase their control over the Senate and the Republicans will lose seats in the House. Or, that is what history shows would happen. All of which reduces the odds of S.249 passing.

If the economy tanks further, in two years we get a new President. But in the tanked economy scenario the entire Congress gets a shellacking, which they need. History says the House would change hands again. Where is HR.509 when that happens?

Would the new Senators, likely urban conservatives or moderates, vote for S.249? Probably not, as the new Senators will be coming from the urban states and will have no stomach for touching the ESA.

Hell, we couldn't get changes to the ESA when the conservatives controlled every house in DC - Senate, House, and White House. The urban Republicans bailed and ran for cover. It is realistic to think it will happen now, with Democrats in control of two of those three positions?

My point in all of this is to show the risk associated with the grandslam approach. The risk is beyond high. Nothing is impossible, but some things are extremely unlikely.

I know I will not convince some that the risk is very high. Some have no skin in the game, so trying to convince them that the grandslam idea is too risky, is a waste of breath. I accept that.

Point I have tried to make is this - Singles are good, and since we are still at the plate, we keep swinging for the fences. It is not "either-or" as some want to paint it.

And for those of us who get to "ante up" for the wolf poker game, it is hard to swallow that we are going to take such improbable risks associated with the grandslam approach and forego the singles we are almost assured. Especially when the singles approach, allows us to keep swinging for the fences.

I might be completely wrong in my political analysis, but having been involved in too much politics over the last twenty years, I don't think I am. I know others much smarter than me will have their ideas and may share them here.

One other thing we must consider, whether we like it or not, is that there are a few big players on these topics in Congress. Not in terms of people, but powerful organizations.

And whether you belong to the NRA, hate them or love them, they control a lot of the power in these deals. For NRA to now be pissed at SFW/BGF, and publicly call them out as they have, makes the prospects of S.249 that much more difficult, further reducing the already unlikely odds of the grandslam approach.

SFW cannot do one single thing to infuence an urban Republican. Not one. Yet, a call from the NRA on any issue, and that urban Republican is standing at attention. Having pissed off the NRA and its beltway friends has done nothing to improve what are already astonomical odds for S.249.

Again, we may not like it, and it might not seem fair, but that is the ugly nature of politics in DC.

Thanks for some great comments on the topic. You may not post often, but your words are well stated.

I know I have raised the ire of many in the SFW/BGF crowd and nothing I could say or write will change their minds. I accept that.

Given it looks very likely that the Simpson lanaguage is going to pass and we get some singles, how do we get the home run, in the form of S.249?

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-22-11 AT 05:12PM (MST)[p]So what are the odds that Wyoming "Capitulates" on their Wolf Management Plan, and makes the area for Trophy status big enough to satisfy Salazar, and the pro Wolfie's? Would that make SFW/BGF happy, mad, or sad?






I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
In the worst kept secret of the week, Secretary of the Department of Interior, Ken Salazar, is in Cheyenne this week meeting with Wyoming officials about the wolf plan issues.

Brings forward this question - After all this, is Wyoming looking to strike a deal with the USFWS?

That ought to endear me even further with some of you guys. But, I am asking the question hoping for serious answers.

If WY gets a deal, and MT and ID can get moving forward with the Simpson language, do we junk it all in favor of S.249, since those deals would not be complete removal of the ESA?

Thoughts?

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
Big Fin,
Your points are well taken and your arguments are sound. It bothers me to see all the divisiveness between sportsman. We all need to be on the same page or this isn't going to work. I understand the baseball analogy of singles versus home runs. Unfortunately, I have a real problem with anything Max Baucus touches. He has revealed himself to be a political opportunist. After the healthcare law, I doubt he has any chance of re-election and I think he knows it. Before he is out of office, I am worried about what he might do, or who he might recommend for a judicial appointment. I hope by now, that everyone know's he was responsible for the appointment of Judge Malloy to the federal bench. I also hope everyone understands his ties to The Defenders of Wildlife. When I went to law school in Idaho, I received a valuable piece of advice from a professor. That was "an agreement is only as good as the people who make it". It still sticks with me today, and gives me pause when I know Baucus is involved in any legislation involving the delisting of wolves.
You are right, HR 509 and S 249 may or may not pass. On its own, it likely will not pass. Attached to something else, it could. Whether Obama would sign it or not depends on how much it has to be sweetened for his taste.
I am concerned that Wyoming is being separated from the other two major players, Montana and Idaho. I am proud that Wyoming stood up to the USFWS and that they have been partially vindicated by Judge Johnson's decision. The Feds and USFWS have decided not to appeal it. Negotiating is supposed to be going on but we all know where that has gone in the past. The USFWS claims that Wyoming has fewer wolves than Montana and Idaho and is less of a player. I see so many wolves, and so much wolf sign when I am hiking or hunting that I believe the numbers are grossly understated for this state. I even had a wolf take a run at my son and I when we were out deer hunting on the North Fork of the Shoshone in 2010. I would like to know what the "true number" is.
I believe that the eco-elites are running scared. I also think they would like to see sportsman divided. I think they want to see us placated with some small wins. They always want to preserve the opportunity to run to a judge and slow the process down in the court system. It has worked for 16 years, made their lawyers rich, and the ungulates have suffered. I am not convinced that the Northern Yellowstone, Lolo and other elk herds can be recovered. I am concerned that many people will give up the fight after they get a token hunt for a year or two in Montana and Idaho. That just isn't going to be enough to solve the problem. We need an accurate wolf count and an organized and thorough way to reduce numbers to a specific level that is maintained consistently in all future years.
I truly believe this fight will be a precursor to the delisting battle over the grizzly bear. Wyoming will be the leader in this. Deaths and maulings were way up in 2009-2010 in the area of Wyoming where I live. Relocations were at an all time high in NW Wyoming.
Thank you for your input and knowledge. I just hope we can all stick together and fight long term for what we want and need.
 
BigFin, excellent points. Those have been my conserns ever since I heard of HR509 and S249. It does seem like Mighty Casey is at the bat against Brian Wilson.:)

But, with HR509 and S249, I say the bases are loaded. We're down by three runs with two out. This is not the time for a sacrifice bunt. Let's all get on board with BGF and swing as hard as we can. Losing 4-3 is no better than losing 4-1.

The game might not be over after this, but every day the wolf spreads more and more, and I don't think HR509 and S249 are comming back any time soon. If this fails we might as well just take whatever the Feds will let us have and pretend we like it.
 
From today's Casper Star:

CHEYENNE ? Interior Secretary Ken Salazar says he's optimistic the federal government can come to agreement with the state of Wyoming on how to lift federal protections for wolves in the state.

The Obama administration last week announced a settlement with environmental groups that could lift federal wolf protections for wolves in Idaho and Montana.

Speaking Tuesday in Cheyenne, Salazar said wolves are now fully recovered in the Northern Rockies. He says he plans to continue talks with Wyoming Gov. Matt Mead over transferring wolf management responsibility to the state.

Environmental groups have challenged past efforts to turn management of wolves in Wyoming over to the state because of a state law that calls for classifying them as predators that could be shot on sight in most areas.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-22-11 AT 06:45PM (MST)[p]Mightyhunter - I agree with all you wrote there.

As a side note, Montanans are not under any false impressions with Baucus. He is almost 70 and rumor is he is not going to run for re-election in 2014. Given his work to be a front man on Obamacare, he couldn't win an election for rear admiral on the vaseline tanker at this time.

I will say that most find Tester to be independent of Baucus. He has great ratings from the NRA (almost a requirement in MT), and his current poll numbers are very good in the state. He will have a tough fight ahead with Rehberg running against him next year.

I agree, the grizzly bear will be a big issue. A much more difficult issue. I spent three years as a MT delegate on the ID/WY/MT Governors' Grizzly Bear Roundtable. Five of us from each of the three states were selected to work with the USFWS as the Yellowstone Grizzly Plan was formed and the state plans were coordinated with that.

I was the token hunter appointed to the roundtable for the sole purpose of representing hunters. There was an outfitter, sheep producer, enviro, rancher, dude rancher, legislator, teacher, Chamber of Commerce rep, and a couple others. A few hunted, but none were there to specifically represent hunters.

I learned way more about grizzlies than I ever needed. And, I learned that the hunters and livestock producers are too busy working for a living to attend these hearing and sessions in their spare time.

But guess who attended every meeting, and were always lobbying and politicking at these many three-day events?

You guessed it. The same attorneys representing the same wing nuts in the wolf debacle. Nothing against the legal profession per se, but we have too damn many of these folks in this country.

In that, we all had to present one "drop-dead" issue that would cause us to vote against the plan. There were fifteen of us, and the rule was the recommendations needed unanimous consent. Unanimous is hard with two people, let alone fifteen.

I gave my drop dead issue - State management of grizzly bears that allowed for hunting of grizzlies. Some in the room gulped and gasped for air.

But, if you read the final plan, it allows for hunting of grizzly bears as part of a state management plan. Obviously, that does not solve all the issues for a season, but without that in the plan, it is not even an option. I cannot wait until the day grizzlies are a game species open for hunting. I might be in the pine box, but hopefully my grandkids will get to hunt one.

And as you say, it will continue to be a long drawn out fight. Even more so than wolves, as grizzlies are less adaptable than wolves and require greater habitat considerations.

So, any group opposed to logging, motorized travel, human activity, hunting, you name it, sees the Grizz as a way to control the entire habitat of the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem.

One thing I did learn is how much these USFWS biologists know about Gbears. They have studied the crap out of it. Yet, the wing nut groups have their amateur biologists at the meeting, spewing some credentials, and making fools of themselves. But, they press on with their biologist feeding bad data to their attorneys, building cases for more lawsuits.

Not that any of that matters in this process, but it was very eye opening. We were warned to be very thoughtful and deliberate, as the state wolf planning followed on our heels, and much of what we did would influence how the wolf issues came together.

With that background, none of this wolf stuff is a surprise.

I am impressed with the biologist of the USFWS. I wish I could say the same of their administrative people who actually make the decisions of what to do with the data the biologists provide. I guess we will leave that as "No commnent."

Back to the wolf issue:

Is Wyoming being seperated? Or, are they being provided the opportunity to go forward with their spat with USFWS without concern of messing up MT and ID?

Guess it depends which side of the fence we are on, as to how we see that.

No doubt the wolf nuts want to see us placated. That is what they are hoping for in the proposed settlement, which is nothing more than a bad head fake. We have received assurances from the MT delegation that the settlement, whether accepted by Malloy or not, is not going to derail any legislative attempts.

With those assurances, any recapitulation on that stance is going to be painful for any MT politician who bails on us now.

I do not view the Simpson language as a placation by the wolf nuts. They are afraid as hell of that bill.

They know S.249 has no chance of passage today. They have seen attacks on the ESA before in more hostile Congresses, and nothing happened. But they fear the Simpson language, because word came down last week that it is passing and the Pres is going to sign the budget bill when it gets finalized..

They fear it not just for what it represents to wolves, but that it represents the first time Congress has decided to intervene on an endangered species issue. That scares the hell out of them.

Fortunately I live in Bozeman. Unfortunately, so do the attorneys for these wolf groups. Bozeman is a small town. As much as those guys don't trust me and I don't trust them, they trust others who trust us hunters. At times, such close presence helps us learn more of the motives these groups have, which is almost always money, and in the case of the Simpson language - FEAR.

If we agree that S.249 has no chance at this time, I see two places where we stay united and keep choking the last bit of oxygen from the pro-wolfers game plan.

ITEM #1. We do not accept the compromise they put out last week. That is their best attempt to save face and move their money machine to other states. And, since only a portion agreed, the non-participants get to stay here and make life a miserable.

Even if the USFWS accepts the settlement, and Malloy approves it, we lay the hammer to the legislative options by pressuring our delegations. Legislation is what they fear and what creates positive change.

Now is not a time for compromise. As some would say, take no prisoners. We have been abused by these folks long enough. Accommodation and negotiation is not an option.

ITEM #2. Whether the Simpson language passes, or doesn't pass, we keep the pressure on for eventual change of the principles that are encompassed in S.249.

I agree when you say that S.249 is unlikely to pass as a stand alone. Anyone with much political experience quickly draws that conclusion.

But, that does not mean we cannot get pieces of it attached to other legislation. The Equal Access to Justice Act needs to be changed. Many other parts of the ESA need changed. We can get that done, if we work at it collectively and wisely.

Trying to do it as an all out assualt on the ESA is a dead effort. It was tried in the Bush-Cheney years, with a Republican Senate and House. Even with such a stacked deck, it gained no traction. To go at it that way, is a waste of time, money, effort, and possibly credibility that we need for future battles that might result in successes.

Thanks again for your comments.


"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
I too like the baseball analogy. Two singles score no more runs than striking out. A home run puts at least one run on the board. If we swing hard and strike out we score the same amount of runs as two singles.
We have a federal judge that has ruled Wyoming's plan will ensure protection for wolves under the esa. This is a federal judge that was appointed by President Clinton. If sportsmen would stay united and stand on a unified front we would win this battle. The divide and conquer tactic has been used by extremist enviromentalist groups since the 50's.
 
feduptwo - I ask this seriously. What is that plan?

You say, "If sportsmen would stay united and stand on a unified front we would win this battle."

Give your plan of how we are going to win this, with the "swinging for the fences" idea you recommend. Maybe there is a way.

I have spelled out the down falls and risks of that strategy, and I am not saying I am right. But to this point, no one I am aware of has given even an iota of details as to what the plan is.

I am willing to listen to the possibilities of such plan, but just saying "stick together and let's swing for the fences" doesn't cut it. That is a good way to get our asses handed to us.

The details of how that plan is going to overcome the ridiculous odds of getting S.249 through Boxer's committee, through the Senate, and signed by this President, would be appreciated.

Please elaborate.

Or anyone else who claims the "swing for the fences" idea of S.249 is the way to go, let's hear how those odds are going to be overcome.

Has that been laid out by Mr. Benson? If so, I have not seen it. Mr Peay? Again, if so, I have not seen it. Not saying it is not out there, but it would be nice to see the details.

Most guys have been around the block enough that "Trust me" doesn't serve as compelling explanation.

The wolf nuts do not see it happening either, which is why they hope we "swing for the fences."

Every time the batter has stepped to the plate with that in mind, it has been a pop fly or a strike out. What plan does the new batter have that is going to get the ball over the fence?

Let's hear some details of that "grand slam" idea everyone wants to tout.

Using the baseball analogy, right now the bases are loaded and we are down by one run, with no outs. Singles start scoring runs when the bases are loaded.

Are we going to take the singles and score enough runs to win the game?

Or, are we going to swing for the fence and strike out as our batter has every time we have swung for the ESA fence over in right field? And send the next batter up to do the same thing, and the next batter to do the same thing?

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-22-11 AT 10:30PM (MST)[p]Your ball coaching skills are as bad as your wolf strategy. That last analogy says it all.

A single, followed by a sacrifice bunt, moves one runner over in scoring position. You sacrifice bunt again, and move that runner to third. The next guys hits the second single and you score.

This is how we should have worked this thing from the start. Wyoming would have had their trophy area drawn out however they wanted by now. (Federal oversight would have ended after 5 years time). If they would have only made the right choice in 2003. I wonder how much influence SFW had in giving Wyoming the wrong advice. Swinging for the fence. Because it's been one strike after another for these past 8 years.




I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
Big Fin,

I can't say that I have a written plan. Maybe we ask BGF to formulate a public plan, i'm sure they already have a internal one.
I believe a bad delisting bill is worse than what we have now. That is what we've had up to this point is fragmented state plans that leave gapping holes for enviromentalists to manipulate in activist courts. Remember the plans that Montana and Idaho wrote were exactly what was asked of them by the USFWS and still there back on the list. They'll go down this road again Wyoming or one of the new states won't go along and bam another lawsuit or interfence from activist courts.
I will tell you my personal plan. Keep in mind that my side has a great track record of predicted what will happen when it comes to the ESA and wolves. You just have to look at history (bears) to see what will happen with more bad legislation. When it comes to large predators the ESA has a dismal record and some sort of reform is the only way to go.
Anyway heres what I'm going to do:
Support BGF and the groups that support the legislation. SFW, RMEF, MDF for sure. I believe these groups so far are solid supporters. This support will include financial support and anything they need me to do as far as phone calls, and medial tasks they ask of me.
I'm going to forward the emails from Ryan Benson and ask my personal friends to do everything he asks of us. I'm going to spend a 1/2 hr a week on hunting forums in the midwest and south and ask these people for their help.
I'm going to educate my non hunting friends and family to whats happening in the Yellowstone area. I'm going to ask them to have a discussion with their friends. I'm going to pass along my two copies of the "yellowstone is dead" DVD.
The important thing to remember is if were divided were skunked. The fact that the enviromental groups are starting to fragment is a very encouraging sign (4100fps may have some inside information as to their resolve as I'm pretty sure he is a card carrying member)
I see this mess ending three ways. BGF wins and through careful state management we start reducing wolf numbers and have a slow steady increase finally reaching acceptable big game numbers. Even with a victory this is a long slow process probably taking 20yrs or more to acheive acceptable big game levels.
OR
BGF fails, herd numbers continue to plumett and within two yrs populations of big game in the Yellowstone corridor are reduced to a level that is unacceptable to the general public (not just sportsmen). Enviromentalists and the USFWS will no longer be able to lie to the public and some true ESA reform will be called for and evenatually pass. This will happen within the next 5 yrs and we'll then enter into the same twenty year recovery period. The recovery of big game species will take 25-30yrs instead of twenty.
OR
It turns out the public doesn't care about wildlife. Elk are gone moose are gone. Wolves can't make a living killing healthy buffalo and travel outside the park and surrounding safe areas where they get into livestock and get killed by govt hunters, sportsmen, ranchers, outfitters, and the general public because we've lost any resemblance of faith in the USFWS.
This final sceneraio could also be accompanied by a large population crash. About 4 yrs ago I listened to one of the premier wolf biologists (Riverton, WY) where he preached that delisting was very important because wolves will eat themselves out of home, and the population will crash. Dave is not a anti wolf guy by any stretch of the imagination. I believe Dave Mech was one of the 11 scientists that gave Wyoming's orginal plan a favorable peer review. You should have seen the look on the enviro's face when he preached about delisting, it was not what they expected.

Its Sad to say we haven't hit bottom yet with any plan and it will get worse before it gets better.
 
Theres only two players Idaho and Montana. Two singles leaves you with two runners. The lead runner is stranded at 2nd. Assume Wyoming eventually conceeds and gets on base that leaves you with bases loaded with no more hitters.
Bad State plans with sportsmen fighting amoungst themselves are where we've been for 7 years. If wyoming conceeded tomorrow the enviros would just come up with another excuse, like genetic diversity (one of your fav's I believe) and we'd be in the same boat. The only way this works out for sportsmen is a plan that tweaks the ESA. The Simpson/Tester legislation is like Groundhog day of the wolf plan. We've been there done that. No thanks
 
There's always been more players than 2. The sportsman, Ranchers, Federal and State leaders, people from all three states, USFWS and the 14 wolf groups ect. Some of the sportsman groups have had poor leadership from the onset.

You still aren't full of the cool-aid yet, and still singing the same old song. (One of your fav's I believe). I'll bet you never read the Simpson Bill. Maybe now's a good time to do just that.

Right now, it's looking like everyone might finally be on that train, except SFW/BGF. Here's a new song for you:

" When I finially got to the Train Station, it was long gone, long gone, gone."


I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
There is a lot shaking loose on the wolf issue on both the Wyoming front and also the Montana and Idaho front. The issue is coming to a head because of the fact that congress is being forced to deal with the ESA and the wolf issue. Proposed legislation has made many of the eco-elite groups nervous as hell about what might happen. On the Montana and Idaho front 10 of the eco-elite groups, that were party plaintiffs in the 2009 lawsuit wherein Judge Molloy relisted the wolf and stopped the wolf hunt in 2010, want to settle. Most of this group are the real big eco-elite players. 4 of the eco-elite groups involved as party plaintiffs in that lawsuit don't want to settle. Mike Garrity of the Alliance for the Wild Rockies (a group that doesn't want to settle) commented that the fear of passage of delisting legislation was forcing the eco-elite groups to the settlement table. It shows that many of the eco-elites realize they went too far the last time. Remember that right after this judicial decision the eco-elite groups cancelled settlement negotiations because they got caught up in the "we won, you lost" moment. They are starting to crack and are getting nervous.This is a good thing. The proposed legislative fixes are getting to them.
Meanwhile, on the Wyoming front, Interior Secretary Salazar met behind closed doors with Governor Mead of Wyoming on Tuesday March 22nd, 2011 to discuss the wolf issue. Mead was quoted as saying "a sense of urgency" was in the air to strike a deal. Salazar was saying "he was optimisitic about resolution". This meeting, in conjunction with the Feds decision not to appeal the November 2010 decision of a Wyoming Federal District Judge Johnson (that held the Feds were wrong not to accept the Wyoming wolf plan) is shaking things loose in Wyoming. My gut hunch, as an attorney, is Wyoming is going to concede a few token elements of their original plan in order to allow the Feds to save face and move forward. Mead can't concede much or it will be political suicide in Wyoming. It wouldn't surprise me if an agreement is reached in Wyoming before Judge Molloy figures out what to do in the settlement of that dispute.
All the proposed legislation to delist the wolf, in all its various forms, is starting to get somewhere. Now is the time for sportsman to pull together and hold everyone's feet to the fire. Don't get involved in infighting and bickering.That is what the eco-elite groups want. Something good may be about to happen. Keep the legislative pressure up and don't let off the gas. Even if a few victories are obtained, the club of delisting legislation needs to be held over the heads of all the various eco-elite groups and the USFWS.
On another issue that involves the wolf, did anyone notice that although the Jackson, Wyoming elk counts are above objective, the cow-calf ratios have dropped significantly in that region. I believe that this is the first sign that heavy wolf predation is starting to take place in yet another area.
On a final note, I would like to see all the sportmans groups get together to force an accurate and independent count of the actual number of wolves in Wyoming, Idaho and Montana. You can't figure out what to do with them if you don't know how many there are.
 

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