UT Management Hunts?

P

Prism

Guest
So, it appears the new Utah mangement hunts are going to be anyweapon during the rut.

As a lot of you guys know southern region bucks tend to have burly bases. Bucks could very easily throw an extra 1" plus point around/near the bases/eye guards. They could also very easily throw a 1" plus extra anywhere on their 3 or 2 point side.

A lot of these little extras could be almost impossible to see at almost any distance, and especially over 100 yards. Just imagine how hard it'd be at 300 yards!

Infact, I'd bet that most of the mature "management" bucks in these areas will have some small extras even though they're the kind of bucks that need to be culled from the herds.

Is there going to be some wiggle room for these bucks?

If not, I can see some serious issues with the hunt.
 
Prism,
Isnt that the truth?I can see some more points getting broken at the kill site.
 
I think the point of these hunts is to add some opportunity and get rid of some of these bucks that don't score good and will never score good.

The ground I hunt in Utah is overrun with big 2 and 3 points because everyone thinks they have to shoot a 4x4 plus. It's the same on the LE hunts.

Personally I'd rather shoot a great big old ugly 3 point than a 160" young four pointer, but it's taken me a few years to get to this point and really understand and appreciate mature deer regardless of points.

Sure would be shame to make hunters on these new management hunts kill young 3x3 bucks, etc. as they have to pass on big mature management bucks just because small 1" cheaters that will never be anything more.

There needs to be more discussion on this from the DWR and the COs in these units. Are these deer going to be required to be checked in with the DWR? Seems like it'd be a good idea to gather age/health data too.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-08 AT 02:04PM (MST)[p]These hunts were originally proposed to be for short range weapons (archery and muzz) in part, to force hunters to get close to avoid making mistakes. I can't believe I stayed for almost the entire wildlife board meeting, but I did, and I think the way the board passed it, points below the first fork won't count towards the total. So, standard eyeguards, gnarly eyeguards, devil points, etc. won't count towards the total points. A point has to be an inch long to count, but that can get tricky on old burly bucks. The deer have to be checked by the DWR within 72 hours of harvest. I hope that the CO's can keep the original intent of the hunt in mind and be a little flexible.

How many points do you think it will take to draw the tag for the Pauns? The Henries? I love the dates for the Pauns hunt, and this might be the only way I ever get to hunt the Henries. I am tempted to burn my points and go for it. What would you take, the Book Cliffs muzz hunt or a premium LE management tag? I am torn.

Dax

P.S. I have been seeing some pretty good "management" bucks lately, here are a few photos.

Heavy 3x4, I like the thick back on the side without a fork.
heavy3x4.jpg


This buck was pretty nice on one side, and a stunted 3 on the other, probably an injury.
lopsider.jpg

lopsiderside.jpg


Heavy 3x3, or is it a 3x4? Points like the one on this guys left side will be tricky. Love his eyeguards.
mgtfront.jpg


Huge muscular body, little tiny head... I named this buck Karl Malone. He was giantic, he totally dwarfed the does he was following. He is probably a 24-26" 2 point.
karlmalone.jpg


I liked the looks of this tall 3x4, pretty with those dark antlers.
jordan.jpg

tall3x4.jpg
 
Dax,

Draw odds are gonna be goofy for sure.

I can't believe how many points some guys used to draw management elk tags. Some guys drew management hunts with more points than they needed for regular LE tags for the same units..WTH?

I'd use a bunch of points to draw either hunts just for the opportunity to hunt one of those two units, but that's just me.

Tough call for guys with points, easy call for guys (like me) with no points. ;-)
 
The wildlife board and the division must have arrived to their meeting on a short bus.

I am in favor of the managment tag BUT

Why would they have you hunt during the rut. They say it didn't work for elk because the elk were all busted up. Well what do you think the deer look like on the henneries with more bucks than does? U guessed it all busted up.

Then you are going to hear people wining about people not shooting management bucks just like they did for elk.

I am glad they didn't make a management tag specific for archery equipment. That would have even a bigger joke. You simply can't tell an archer to go and target any single buck.

If deer need to be managed than a rifle hunter is better at doing the managing



in november.Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
We need a managment hunt for UDWR employees.


---------------------------------------
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-08 AT 03:37PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-08 AT 03:34?PM (MST)

I believe they put the management deer hunts in the rut to provide the management hunter the opportunity to find these big inferior bucks. If not, more hunters might be happy with the first legal buck they could find. I like the idea, just like I liked the idea of management elk...I would take a Henries management hunt over a Book cliff's LE hunt. Just the experience of glassing Henry bucks and sifting out the legal bucks in the rut and killing a big ol' mature 2 or 3 point. What a Blast that would be!!!!!

Isaynunya, kinda harsh comment about UDWR. Let's say you are the new UDWR director...what would you and your administration do differently starting manana? ....No, I don't work for UDWR.
 
Here are some more management buck photos. I really like the idea of hunting the Henry Mtns. I wonder how many tags they will give?

Three point from the side and front.
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P1000201.jpg


24" 2 point, was harvested shortly after this photo was taken.
buck-1.jpg



I wonder if anyone would shoot either of these next 2 bucks with management tags?
heavy2.jpg

heavy2x3.jpg


Had to throw in at least one in velevet.
overtheshoulder-1.jpg


Old heavy buck, but just a 3 point.
heavy.jpg


Big bedded 3 point.
P1000071.jpg
 
I agree with the concept of these hunts, as the older age class undesirable buck will hit the turf, leaving the more genetically sound bucks breeding does and carrying on the pool. A couple concerns that I have on these hunts are,

1 - I think that some hunters are going to draw these permits looking for a "trophy" management buck, and I think that for the first year or two, at least on the Henry Mts., there will be a few big old 3x3 with cheaters on one side and so forth taken. Thats great, but by and large, these are going to be undesirable bucks to trophy hunting type hunters.

2 - I also think that this would have been a great opportunity to have for the youth, and the youth only. Maybe say 12-18 year old hunters only. This would be a great way to introduce the youth to hunting, and they are more than likely going to be tickled just to be out hunting with there dads, family...etc. and be fine with a management buck.

I do agree with you Prism, some of these deer are really neat, I saw a great 2x2 on a back country Colorado deer hunt in 2005, and was fixing to kill him but he slipped into the quakies before I could get a shot. In 2007, we saw the exact same buck and he looked so neat with a huge body. His cape was unreal, and he dwarfed the big 3x4 he was running with.

I hope the hunt works out the way the division is planning. It will take disciplined and responsible hunters to make it successful.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-08 AT 06:05PM (MST)[p]This may be a good management buck for someone......

P1050043-1.jpg
 
I'm in the same boat as Prism..No Points for deer. It's easy for me. I will be putting in for these tags and be damn glad to shoot a 170 class 3 point. Can you imagine what a 170 class 3 point will be. For guys like me that don't care what they score it's a perfect hunt. I will be looking for something with 3 points on one side and heavy. Maybe they should include some of these management tags in the drawing at the Western Hunt Expo.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
I had a Bookcliff's ML permit a few years ago and the biggest and best buck I saw during my scouting trips was a massive two point. I'm sure he was an old buck that was regressing, but he was HEAVVVY and WIIIDDEE! I hunted hard for him for most of the hunt, but could never turn him up again. I would've dropped the hammer on him in a heartbeat if I could've found though. He was easily 34" wide and with probably 6" bases that carried the mass all the way to the tips of his points! Truly an awesome buck!

I hope these management hunts work better than I think they're going to. Brings back too many bad memories of the three-point or better days when a lot of guys would shoot first and ask questions later. Everyone knows there were lots of bucks left lying in the field, which is a crying shame.
 
I agree with you Foreman, while the concept is good and should be implemented, I hope that there is a force of game warden's patrolling the two hunts, checking bucks and monitoring the activities of the hunters.
 
I personally like the concept of management hunts for deer and elk. It provides added opportunity for those hunters who do not need a 200" deer or 400" elk. It also uses up bonus points. If they put the elk management hunt in the rut it would have been more successfull.
I am suprised they just didn't add 100 archery tags to each of these premium units. Since archers don't kill the top quality animals or add any measurable pressure to a deer herd. There is no biological evidence not too.
 
bragabit that would make to much since. Remember we are dealing with the Utah dwr and the anti archery board members

Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-08 AT 10:06AM (MST)[p]>As a lot of you guys
>know southern region bucks tend
>to have burly bases. Bucks
>could very easily throw an
>extra 1" plus point around/near
>the bases/eye guards. They could
>also very easily throw a
>1" plus extra anywhere on
>their 3 or 2 point
>side.


*** AND DONT FORGET ***

Utah DWR Counts an Eyeguard as a *point*, so a 3x3 with eye guards is counted as a 4x4!

Most of those bucks pictured above would *N*O*T* be legal!


-DallanC
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-08 AT 10:10AM (MST)[p]Dallen dont know what you are talking about but every one of those pictures should be in the proc on what should be culled.

Legal bucks

Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
Dallen,you said the DWR counts eye guards a points.Daxter said he was at the meeting and thought the board said eye guards dont count.Hopefully it will say for sure in the regs or somebody could be in a world of trouble.Thanks.(ROD)
 
Eye guards do NOT count....that would be an absurd stipulation.
I really like this plan, but i would have like to see an educational course for successful applicants so they understand the intentions of this plan, and i would have also liked to see it a youth hunt with an adult "coaching".








48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
>Eye guards do NOT count....that would
>be an absurd stipulation.

I hope the proclaimation on it is very clear then. Every single time I've gone though a checking station the officers indeed counted eyeguards as points on their tally sheets. I've asked them about it and they said its just their proceedure to count any point over an inch as a valid point.

/shrug


-DallanC
 
DallanC, the language is very clear that eye guards do NOT count as points for the management deer tags. IMHO, this is the ONLY item pushed through by the DWR that was done right. I am still confused however how the DWR gave up after ONE year of data for management elk tags, yet seem eager to implement them for deer.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
I'm guessing the management deer hunts will make it a year or two just like the elk hunts did.

Personally I'd much rather see "management" elk hunts than spike hunts, but hey.....

Anyone want to wager how long it'll last? I say three years max.
 
The statewide plan that sets up the management hunts will supposedly be in place for the next 5 years. I hope they give the management hunts a chance, but all it will take is a few guys to shoot 2 year old bucks, someone to shoot and leave a trophy, or a hunter to shoot a broken trophy buck and someone will have a fit and try to get the hunt taken away just like they did for elk.

One of the biggest complaints from opponents to the management bull hunts was that management hunters were shooting young bulls with potential. What do you think a spike is? I guarantee that some spike bulls have potential to be 350"+ bulls, ask some of the high fence guys what their big bulls were as yearlings, I am sure that some were spikes. If you are going to kill young bulls with potential, at least with the management tags they could control how many hunters were on a specific unit and keep moving people through the points system, with a statewide spike hunt it will be a lot harder to manage the harvest on a specific unit and nobody burns points.
 
I spend a ton of time out in the bookcliffs every year, and personaly I feel that they give out to many rifle tags for the unit. I think they sould take half the rifle tags in the bookcliffs and make them managment tags, and also they need to put them in nov. sometime because that is when the tags will become the most effevtive, as the bucks are very doecile and will tolerate people at closer range for longer periods of time.

Right now people draw the tag and will pass on a big heavey 28" 3 point to shoot a young willow horn 24" 4 point with good potential just because its a 4 point.

I cant speak about the other LE units in the state because I dont spend much time on them, but the Book Cliffs would benefit greatly from a managment hunt.

IMO.





Jake H. MM Member since 1999.
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Foreman-
Gawd aint that the truth!! Lol

Make all 600 tags management hunts and we'll wipe the herd out and start over!!
We can call it an "ethnic cleansing" Lol






48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
LOL Slam, Im gonna start calling you warlord slam. There are a few non-managment bucks out there, you jsut have to sift through all the managment buck to get to them.

I cant say whether the pauns or the henrys need a managment hunt cause I've never been out there, but if any unit needs an ethnic cleanseing its the book cliffs.



Jake H. MM Member since 1999.
458738e374dfcb10.jpg
 
>I don't recall ever seeing a
>buck out in the Bookcliff's
>that WASN'T a management buck.....
>


Hmm... you just need to look a little harder!
 
Do I understand correctly that when the buck to doe ratio gets to 35% the management hunt will be discontinued as long as ratio stays below that percentage.
 
I copied this from page 13 of the new deer plan. I found it online at http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/info/nov18.pdf
This is the draft version, and they have changed a few things.

"i. Establish management buck hunts on these units to provide additional hunting opportunity
ii. If the 3-year average buck:doe ratio exceeds 50/100, management buck permits will be increased to bring the population back to objective within 3 years."

The way I read it, there will always be a few management tags, but the number will be increased if the buck to doe ratio exceeds 50/100.

Jake H, I hoped they would create a management hunt on the Book Cliffs. The buck to doe ratio out there is really high, but you just don't see lots of quality bucks. I agree that there are lots of management bucks out there.
 
Most of those bucks pictured would NOT qualify. As I read the DWR press releases from the Board meeting, it says neither antler can have more than 3 points (I do not believe eye guards will count as points). I can see some young 3 points getting killed that would grow to be monsters, but who cares, right? More opportunity = more revenue.
It boggles my mind that the wildlife board can pass this and do away with elk management tags AT THE SAME MEETING. Wouldn't these management tags do the same as spike tags? i.e. bring bull/cow ratios back in line?
 
with the wildlife boards mentality some one will kill a three point like you say and next thing you know we will be hunting spike deer state wide next year.





Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
Here is what I just read, but could not find anything about eyeguards:

Management buck deer hunt: More hunters can hunt on the Paunsaugunt and Henry Mountains premium limited entry units after board members approved a management buck deer hunt for the units.

The management hunt runs Nov. 2?6 on the Henry Mountains unit and Nov. 7?11 on the Paunsaugunt unit. If you draw a permit for the hunt, one of the antlers on the deer you take may not have more than three points on it. There's no restriction on the number of points the other antler can have. You can hunt with a rifle, a muzzleloader, or a bow and arrow.

Who knows, most likely we will end up only being able to kill 1x2's.
 
I think this is a good hunt to try. Two years ago I hunted the pauns and saw three 3x3's around 30 inches. 170-180 class deer. Two weeks ago I hunted with a friend delores triangle hunt. Saw two 3x4's about 30 inches wide scoring about 180. One 28 inch 3x3 scoring about 175. Good ideas to get some of these out of the gene pool.
 
The 2009 proclamation is out on the DWR web site. The management deer qualifications state that the deer must have 3 points or less on a side. It is also very clear that eyeguards do not count toward this total. The count starts at the first fork of the antlers above the eyeguards. It also states that there is no limit to the number of points on the other antler.
 
Just read the regs Skull and it does say there is a required online course if you are succesful in drawing the tag.
 
I have to admit, I side with prism on this. I can forsee lots of the "oops" and "altering" of antlers at the kill site to provide a "legit" management buck. I think there's pro's and con's to this, but the DWR could have their hands full if this thing is defined to the the T.

I too have been out watching the rut action, I've seen some amazing 3x4's and 3x3's. Even some 2x4's, all would make some killer Euro mounts and maybe even some wallhangars.

I think it's great that the DWR is taking steps to better the deer population. They have done a superb job on the Elk, now let's focus on the muley's.

This could be a step in the right direction, but it could also have some major downfalls...
 
Daxter,

Great photos. You've convinced me to put in for the management buck system next year!!!
 
I would've liked to have seen them make these hunts for youth and seniors only, meaning only those under 18 or over 65 could apply.
 
>I would've liked to have seen
>them make these hunts for
>youth and seniors only, meaning
>only those under 18 or
>over 65 could apply.


++++1
 
They're giving something like 40-60% of the tags to youth and seniors. Isn't that enough?
I guess you'd rather 40-year old guys like me with 9 points who might like a management hunt just stay in the Premium LE hunt pool and make it harder to draw for those who truly want a trophy hunt?
Everyone complains there are too many guys with points out there so Utah comes up with a way to flush some of those out. Let it happen. The more points that get spent the better. Restricting the guys who might put in for a management hunt seems stupid.

The Christian
 
Are you considering burning 9 POINTS on that hunt?!?!?!?!?! I figured noone with more than 3 or 4 would even consider it.
 
Addict, yes, I'm considering it. With 9 points I'm statistically many many years, if ever, drawing the Henries. If the Henries follow the history of most LE hunts in the west, (Elk Ridge, Paunsagaunt, etc.), it too will decline. This could be my only chance to hunt there.

The Christian
 
All I have is 6 points.I drew the Ponce 19 yrs.ago.It wasnt all that great back then.I figure also at my age if I get to draw a management buck tag ,hell ya.If I had a chance at a heavy horned 28 or 30 inch wide 2 or 3 point,I would take it in a heart beat.I guess I am still from the old school.Total numbers dont mean nothing to me.Its the mass and trash and character that gets me going.Thanks(ROD)
 
I'm with Christian on this one. I'll likely be trying to burn my numerous points on a "management" tag. I was, in the past putting in with my wife who has max points. But due to the change in turning back of tag rules, I guess I'll let her take one of the coveted ?Henry? tags instead. Sorry about that one Skull Crazy.
One thing for sure, with all the rule changes, it will make it impossible for anyone to predict draw odds for a unit based on past trends. I've come to the conclusion that in Utah you can't plan anything. The rules change so often there's no way to stay on top of it. You just have to roll with punches.
I noticed in the changes one season date change. It will be interesting to see what effect this has on the draw odds for that particular hunt.
 
If you read the Guidebook its pretty simple:

A management buck has no more than 3 points above the first fork, excluding eye guards, on at least ONE antler (including broken tines). A 30 inch 6 x 3 with 2 huge eye guards on each antler would be legal! Ad a 1 inch cheater above the first fork on the 3-point side and it is not legal.

ALL harvested bucks must be checked.

Only 40% of permits will be available to huntes 18-64 years old.

There will be at least one non-resident permit, but probably not many for the 18-64 year old non-residents out there!
 
So what do people think the number of points for resident and non-residents will be on these tags?

I have 9 non-resident points, and I too am considering this hunt, but I have no idea what other people are thinking.

My thought process is "what a great experience," hunting either the Henry's or the Pauns during the rut. Looking over quality animals (even if I can't shoot them all), and have the opportunity for a great 3 pointer. I think it would be a blast.
 
For NR I bet the draw odds will be no better than the regular henrys tag, perhaps even worse as guys with less than max points will put in for this instead.
 
This is probably a really stupid question but what exactly is the goal as far as management? What are they trying to manage for a 4 point typical frame or what? Do they base any of it off of score or semetrical characteristics or what?
 
From the Utah big game guide book
"Removing excess bucks on the Paunsaugunt and Henry Mountains limited-entry units?while protecting the larger bucks in the herds?is the goal of the management buck deer hunt. These two units have high buck-to-doe ratios. Harvesting smaller-antlered bucks will preserve trophy-class bucks and provide more room for does. Having more does in the herds will result in more fawns being born. Having more fawns will help ensure that these herds remain strong and healthy into the future."
Southslope82,
The way I read it, Its about numbers not genetics.
 

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