Wyoming Deer Changes - Proposal

ICMDEER

ICMDEER

Very Active Member
Messages
2,994
This will be kinda long, so bear with me. We have been at the edges of this controversy off and on forever. I have gone to the season setting meetings for over 20 years and have been asking for these sorts of changes for over a decade. Game and Fish is steadfast in their response that "there is no biological need" for any change in Wyoming deer management and that "hunters do not and will not support any significant changes." The G&F season setting meetings are going on right now. I'll go to two meetings in the next two weeks and will ask for positive change in mule deer management.

Can any of you support these sorts of changes? If so, go to a meeting or write to the Wyoming Game and Fish and let them know your thoughts.

For background, let's establish that it is well documented that the number of hunters has been on a steady decline for a long time. People simply have lost interest. The stewards of our wildlife resources have a responsibility to provide the types of hunts that enthuse people about hunting. This means that we should strive for some hunts that provide opportunity, and others that provide for a high quality experience. This would be one means of keeping a diverse group of hunters interested.

Anyway, here's what I ask for:

1. All mule deer managed by area. The 2008 regs show 171 deer areas in Wyoming. Each area should be managed as a unit. This will provide better management and provide more opportunities for diverse hunters. (THE BIG QUESTION IS IF IT HAS BEEN GOOD ENOUGH FOR ANTELOPE IN WYOMING FOR 40 YEARS, WHY ON EARTH CAN WE NOT MANAGE MULE DEER WITH AT LEAST THE SAME LEVEL OF SCRUTINY THAT WE DO ANTELOPE??? sorry for the capitals, BESS.) Areas could be combined if they are alike, but mostly manage as single area.

2. Licenses should be season specific. No archery and rifle hunting for 2-3 months on the same license.

3. Muzzleloader seasons should be used in many areas. No scopes and these could be early or late season licenses depending upon the type of opportunity to be provided.

4. No month-long rifle seasons. Split those seasons if necessary.

5. Some areas managed for quality; some for opportunity. Let locals have MEANINGFUL input in their areas.

6. A percentage of licenses set aside for youth hunters. Perhaps some entire seasons in certain areas set aside for youth.

7. Archery season not just early. Provide some late season archery seasons, too. Same for muzzleloaders.

8. In trophy areas, a higher percentage of licenses go to residents. Sorry noresident hunters, but we live here and Wyoming already has the highest percentage of licenses going to nonresidents.

9. Preference points are a must for residents, and we need these NOW either way. How can G&F say that there's no need for resident preference points when it is highly unlikely I'll ever draw an area 82 deer license or a Red Desert antelope license without points, but a nonresident can save points and eventually draw the license? Amazing logic there.

What do you think? Start hammering away, but above all, contact the Game and Fish or go to a meeting and voice your concern and opinion.

THANKS to all. MM is an amazing forum and the passion of the members makes muley country a better place, whether we agree or disagree.
 
To be honest, there isnt much in any of those that I can agree with.

1. I think managing by HERD would be better than managing on a unit-to-unit basis. Makes more sense to me, to manage an entire herd of deer, taking into account things like migratory patterns, buck-to-doe ratios, vulnerability, etc.

2. Totally disagree, with this one, theres a minimal impact by bowhunters and there is no reason to have to choose.

3. Again, totally disagree. The deer already have enough pressure and dont need yet another season on them. I say keep the archery hunt in place and let those with muzzleloaders hunt during the general seasons. Odd that you'd cut the bow season, then add a muzzleloader season? Seems counter-productive, and a muzzleloader, even without a scope, will have higher success rates than archers.

4. Again, not in agreement in all cases and for all deer hunting. The areas in the NE corner have had the month long seasons for years, and the deer there are doing well.

5. I DO agree that a few more areas could be managed for quality, but not more than 5-10% of the current deer areas.

6. While I agree that getting youth involved with hunting, I dont think there needs to be a set-aside number of permits. Wyoming already encourages youth hunting for NR's by the reduced priced licenses. Also, there are numerous antlerless deer, elk, and antelope tags that can be obtained by ALL youth. Thats more than enough opportunity for young hunters. If a parent cant find a handful of tags and get their kids out, they need to find a clue.

What I dont want is special areas where youth hunt big bucks that are vulnerable. Most kids dont care if they shoot a doe, 2 point, or whatever.

The trophy youth permits in many states seem to feed the ego's of fathers more than provide a quality experience for youth hunters.

7. Disagree, archery and muzzleloader seasons should stay where they are.

8. Tough one. The selfish side of me says, YES. But, the fact that NR's fund roughly 80% of the Wyoming G&F, not sure severely limiting them by all the above...plus...taking away opportunities at trophy tags is fair. NR's pay a lot for that tag, in particular now with having to spend $30 for just a preference point.

9. Tough one again. Cant say I care for the system the way it is, but cant say I'll like a preference system any better.

I personally think that one thing that has not been addressed in any of your ideas is a limit on ACCESS. If you limit access to more and more country, you LIMIT the number of deer harvested. Providing secure habitat will create more deer and also allow more deer to reach an older age. If you make access tougher a couple things happen, that in my mind are better.

1. You dont need to make areas draw only. Its not right for a drawing to decide who gets to hunt and who doesnt. In limited access areas, those that apply the most effort get the most reward with the best hunting, not the guy that is lucky in a draw.

2. You can manipulate season dates, lengths, etc. to maintain trophy quality easier in areas that have less access. In many cases, because of tougher access, you can have more opportunity and longer seasons.

3. Typically the fringe areas around tougher access areas are usually better hunting for those less inclined to say backpack hunt 5-10 miles back.

No silver bullet, but access just isnt discussed enough for me. I also realize that the WYG&F does not control access to public lands, but they could be more involved in public land management, and so could most hunters. Start asking for gates to be closed and access to be limited. Secure country for deer is CRITICAL.
 
If you want more of the better unit tags then you need to pay the extra $$$
we non res flip the bill for most states big game programs. If you cut the % of tags to Non Res , you will loose too much $.
We need to charge the res same as non for PP.
Limit Res to a Quota on General Lic. in G &H.
I'll spend more for tags and Hunting in Wyoming this year than Residents pay in Taxes.
And you want to cut the % of tags we get? You don't own the wildlife...
 
I am totally against Pref. points for residents. I'd rather have a chance at drawing a tag every year with no points system then being able to hunt it ONE time with bonus points.

Also a lot of your proposals are already being done by the WGFD. They have reduced the season lengths in Western WY.
 
Very good draft. Pretty much covers it all. If they do anything suggested on ICMDEER's list it would be a positive step in the right direction. I'm sure DF&G is looking at the money aspect and license/tags fees will be adjusted.
Moose
 
I tend to be more in the camp of BuzzH on this one. First, if it is a documented fact that fewer hunt, than the general tags should be just fine. Limiting the ability to get a permit would only make folks more frustrated and further reduce the people wanting to go.

I am for a point system for residents on special units, but not the current form. I would be on board if each point got you one chance in the drawing (i.e. if I have ten points, my name is in the drawing ten times; if I have two points, my name is only in twice). The other catch that would be a must would be that general tags do not impact the number of points you have. In other words, if I put in for a special area and don't get it, but do get a general tag, the point I earned carries over to the next year.

I am for limiting the archery/rifle issue. My proposal would help gain funding for the WGF and make people at least think twice about if they want to be archery hunters or rifle hunters. I would propose getting away from the special archery permit to start. The second phase would require an idividual to specify if the permit is valid for archery, rifle, or muzzle loader or all three. It is easier to explain in an example. So last year an elk license cost $52 for a res. If I wanted to hunt archery elk, I would check off archery and that would cost me $52. If I wanted to check both archery and rifle that would now cost me $104. Here is the deal though. You must specify at the time of purchase. The WGF would loose the $16 archery fee, but more than make it up through people wanting to hunt more seasons.

Thats just my two cents, what do others think?
 
I also don't agree with most of what you propose with the exception of the preference point system for residents. Been lobbying for it for years. My proposal is with a Colorado twist. Instead of pure points, they need to do like Colorado does with sheep and goat. You max out at three points. That way you don'ty have to wait 15 - 20 years to draw some area's. You max out at three points, you will draw a tag every 3 or 4 years in many area's. In other area's, you may only see a slight improvement in your odds. If you leave some area's as general season, you'll still be able hunt every year.
 
The only thing I would add is I wish Utah did not have a point system. As a resident it is frustrating at how long it takes to draw a tag. I think at least a cap on the points would help, maybe. The one thing I do like is that most states do it diff and it mixes it up a bit.
 
Some good ideas there, Its noteworthy that the interest in hunting big game is increasing in Nevada where the tags are very limited and even residents usually only draw a deer tag every few years and the for a specfic weapon and in a very specfic area, yet in wyoming its decreasing, I kind of see that myself when I've talked to some long time residents, they say the quality of the experence has gone down so much that it just doesn't excite them or their kids, Region G and H are where the real declines are happening and a little creative managment would be welcome, I went around Pinedale with a petetion a couple years ago, it asked for a limited quota system for deer be put in place for western Wyoming, the response was overwhelming in support for that, but the Game and fish says otherwise? I talked with a Game and fish manager from Cheyenne at the Utah sportsmans show a while ago, when I spoke of poor, and crowded hunting experences in region G he said guys just don't hunt high enough? what a disconnect from reality, there are people crawling all over the tops of those mountains! The wyoming Game and Fish seems determined to copy the Idaho style of deer managment, I really wish they would look at Colorado. Another interesting thing is all the outfitters in Western Wyoming are for a limited quota deer hunt. I think some of your specfic proposals could use some adjustment, but some of this status quo has got to go
 
ICM--
Looking forward, with a little apprehension, naturally, to the meetings. I'll be concerning myself with Campbell, Natrona and should life permit, Washakie County. Appears the time is coming for us to cinch up and figure out what Elk-on-a-platter in the West of the State has done to the MonsterMuley population there, and to figure if G&F considers the Whitetail a worthy substitute in this part of the State, just nature doing it's thing.

Triple-BB--
Interesting concept there. That'd be thoughtful for both Elk and Muleys in Lim. Quo. Areas. Ain't thought heavily on the Gen. Areas as of yet.

Buzz--
Resonse to #8--put some more Preparation H on those figures you're pulling out of that cavity.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-09 AT 05:57AM (MST)[p]F&G still needs money to run theirs programs so if you cut the NR % of Tags you have to get that money you lose from some where so that means raising the Resident tags fees up, that fall under the pay to play rule. How does that sound to the resident paying several hundred dollars to hunt deer in your back yard instead of 50 or so. I bet that don't fly.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
One of the things i love about wyoming is the archery/rifle hunt.i hope that dont change. i also like the point system, and dont understand why guys think it is easier to draw on a random system, I have applied in Idaho and New Mexico for years, never a tag and odds suck, i'd dare say i would have hunted them both at least once if there was a point system.but that is for residents of wyoming to argue about, IMO, they have a great system in place for us non-residents.

I do think they need to put a cap on resident permits, i have no say in this, i am on the outside looking in, but that is my opinion, somthing needs to be done for mule deer.
 
Good discussion and some good ideas. I's still say that there are a lot of ways we could strengthen mule deer management in Wyoming.

I'm not talking about cutting high numbers of nonresident licenses. I'm just talking about giving residents better odds in some quality areas. And if the G&F does as suggested and makes people choose a weapon like archery, muzz or rifle, they can actually sell more licenses because the success rate is lower for archery and muzz hunters.

Not sure how much time you spend up in the NE corner of Wyoming Buzz, but my wife's family has a ranch up there. There are really no quality hunts there except on a few large ranches and those are darned scarce. When you have a month-long season in the rut, the bigger bucks will travel and get whacked - pure and simple. Some management up there would really benefit the herd. Just because there are good deer numbers, it does not mean that there are quality opportunities.

I like some of the other ideas. Maybe we could have bonus points like Nevada instead of preference points. Or maybe we could cap them at 3-5 points per species. I really do not want to make it so tough that young people will give up because they have to wait 15 years to get a good license. And the costs are open for discussion. I'm not advocating anything that would cost G&F money. In fact, I'd say with the creation of resident points and some quality areas, they could easily make more money.

Good comment on the high country. Last time I was over there, I saw 14 hunters in and around my basin by mid-morning opening day. Definitely not a quality experience.

Anyhow, I don't agree with everything from everyone, but this is good stuff. It shows that lots of people care and are thinking of the future of Wyoming's wildlife, especially the mule deer. Go to a meeting and voice your opinion or write a letter to G&F.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-09 AT 04:59PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-09 AT 01:04?PM (MST)

I like a lot of ICM's proposals. I think Wyoming's deer herds should be micro managed. It just makes sense to manage number of deer for the habitat in a given area. It seems to be working for Colorado.

I would like to see less non-resident permits. I think Wyoming should reciprocate the percentage of other states' non resident permits. I think Wyoming is currently around 25% (mule deer) for non-residents, and MOST other states are UP TO 10%. As a resident, I would gladly pay a lot more $ to make up for the funds lost.

As for you guys who say it's not the State of Wyoming's wildlife, I disagree. I don't see the federal government giving Wyoming the funds needed to manage the wildlife in the state.

I don't like the idea of preference points for residents, and surely don't like the idea of 3 points and in your in the max pool. That isn't going to solve any problems, but having a whole bunch of people with 3 points. In my opinion, that's not very smart. If they go to preference points for residents, I would like to see a system like Nevada's. That way, at least you have a chance of drawing a tag in any year.
 
Hey rumproast,

Maybe you should use a little vaseline on your ears so you can pull your head out of the orifice it seems wedged in...

From the Wyoming Game and Fish Homepage:

"Currently, over 60% of the funding allocated by the Wyoming Game and Fish Commission to the Wyoming Game and Fish Department comes from sales of licenses, stamps, preference points, application fees, etc. About 18% comes from federal excise taxes on hunting and fishing equipment. Much of the remainder comes from interest received on funds from these sources. About 80% of license-related revenues come from nonresident hunters and anglers.
 
I would also add a 1-2-3 yr waiting period after you draw to TripleBB's proposal,and square points like Nevada does.Maybe have the point system for units with odds below 10-15%?The lucky ones always draw,us unlucky ones(sob) rarely do!I would hate to see a point system where it takes 15 points to draw!Some good suggestions here!
 
>That isn't going to solve
>any problems, but having a
>whole bunch of people with
>3 points. In my opinion,
>that's not very smart.

It'll certainly help. I'd suggest you set aside your ignorance and do the math with some of these area's. If you cap points at 3, area's that currently have a 33% chance of drawing or better will be guaranteed a tag every three years. Area's with a 50% chance of drawing will be a guaranteed tag every two years. Bottom line is, all area's will see some increase in draw odds. As noted, there will be lot's of guys with 3 pts. There will also be lots of guys with 0, 1, or 2 pts that probably won't have enough points to draw which increases everyone elses chances. Thus the whole purpose of such a system: to give everyone a better opportunity or chance to hunt certain area's. Kid's will have the same opportunity's as adults without having to wait a lifetime to draw. You don't have enough points to draw a tag, then go hunt a general area...
 
I like things the way they are. I really don't like the idea of points. I don't need to wait 3 years between hunts.
 
Okay, Buzz--
I guess you got the fat on me there, I just don't see how this big ol' amount of money could come from outside the borders--don't seem natural by my provincial view at times.

Next bone of contention, please!!---

Rump
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-09 AT 10:22PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-09 AT 10:12?PM (MST)

Triple_BB,

I guess I'm ignorant. Simple math would mean a 33% chance of drawing would have a math probability that a person would draw every 3 years. A area with 50% draw would have a math probability of drawing every two years. There wouldn't be much use for your 3 points max points in these areas, cause everyone, for the most part, would draw every three years.

There are twenty four (24) limited quota areas for residents in Wyoming. Note: Of the 24 areas, four areas have multiple areas you can hunt off the tag,i.e. 141,162 or 105,106,109.
Let me break it down for you:
Odds: # of areas Tags/people applied
100% = 2 areas 54 people drew, 379 tags available
50%-99%= 6 areas 649 tags, 1147 people applied
25%-50%= 4 areas 516 tags, 1701 people applied
15%-25%= 3 areas 285 tags, 1437 people applied
1.7%-15%= 9 areas 653 tags, 8033 people applied
All data taken from Monstermuleys.com draw odds.

The two areas that are 100% obviously have a access problem.

The 50 to 99% have three areas in the 50-60%, and the other three are better than 60%.

The 25-50% areas, have two areas 25-28%, and two areas in the 30-35%. No areas in the 35%-40%. This is where your 3 point suggestion would be best suited. After three years there would only be 153 people with max points. I sure would hope I was one of the guys to draw out the first year, because that would mean every three years I would get a tag. However, if you were one of the guys to draw the third year that would mean it take 6 years to draw two tags, instead of the guy who drew the first year, which would have two tags in three years. Way to help out 1701 people in the state of Wyoming. Good plan!

15%-25% = Three years of draws equals 855 people drawing a tag, which would leave 582 people with max points. So you are looking at every 5 years to draw a tag in these three areas. Of course, if you are the guy who drew on the 5th year, you would get two tags in ten years.

1.7%-15% = Three years of draws equals 1959 people drawing a tag, which would leave 6,074 people with max points. So if you are the last guy to draw you are looking at 12 years to draw a tag in these 9 areas, or 24 years to draw two tags.

It should be noted that Wyoming would probably issue some of those tags in the random draw, so your chances go down even further, and it would take longer to draw.

Another fault of your plan would be this:
All the residents who hunt general areas in the state of Wyoming, and do not put in for limited quota, would start applying. So you can add thousands of people to these 24 areas, and to the three point max pool, which would mean many,many,many, more years of waiting for a tag. Great plan, Einstein!

You say you are in favor of preference points for Wyoming residents. "Been lobbying for it for years." I thank you for being a crappy lobbiest!

So you know, I am a Wyoming Native, and I have been hunting in Wyoming for 19 years, and have never drawn a limited quota mule deer tag. At least every year, I have the same chance of drawing as the guy down the street.
 
Correction on my previous post: There are 25 limited quota areas, I forgot area 64, which is 100% draw. 120 tags, and 69 people put in for them.
 
G14,
I haven't waded through all your ~stats but would suggest that you may want to give pref pts a little closer look! I grew up in Wyo and am somewhat glad I moved away because I now actually have a better chance of drawing tags than you do as a resident!

I hadn't drawn a limited elk tag in Wyo for 22 years and only 1 limited deer tag in the same 22 year time period. Now that I am a nonres and they have started pref pts I have drawn 2 limited elk tags in 3 years and plan on drawing my 2nd limited deer tag in the next year or so! I actually applied for the same elk unit I applied for 22 years without drawing 1 tag!

I am certainly glad the WG&F offers nonres pref pts because I now can start drawing Wyoming tags on a regular basis! I know for a fact that res deer and antelope draw odds before startine pref pts were way better than for nonres in the units I apply so Wyo residents would have even better odds of drawing tags more frequently w/pref pts than I do as a nonres! Obviously the toughest deer units in Wyo continue to have single diget odds of drawing nonres deer tags even with max pref pts but there are a lot of great units that can be drawn w/0 to 3 pts! If the WG&F ever wises up and converts many of the current general deer units over to limited units it will distribute more applicants over more units and provide even better draw odds for deer.

Most of the premier antelope units have about 30 to 50% chance of drawing as a resident and you would be guaranteed a tag every 2 to 3 years w/pref pts. I can almost guarantee you will draw more antelope tags w/pref pt system in 20 years than you ever will without pref pts.
 
jims - my point exactly. I am 32 years into the sheep deal and would have drawn almost any area in the state if I was a nonresident. As a resident, I'm still waiting for a license in a good area. Odds for shepp, goat amd moose are WAY BETTER fo nonresidents, as are many other areas fo other species. (After waiting this long, I want to hunt a good area for sheep. I do not know a single person who has waited longer for a sheep than me.)

This post has generated some good discussion. Another point about the limited quota deer areas is that the vast majority of them are for whitetails. Not much good to a guy like me that's strictly a mule deer hunter.

In my way of thinking, we would still have some areas a person could easily draw every year. And some premium areas. And if we do allow licenses for archery and muzz to stand alone, we'll have a quality opportunity virtually every year.

I just see some changes as an improvement. I wonder if the younger guys who like the "I'll take may random chances every year" theory will still like the random draw in 30 more years when they have NEVER HAD A LIMITED license. I have not drawn a Red Desert antelope license since 1991. Odds are I should have had 4 or 5 in that time. If we had some sort of point system, I would have been a lock for one or more of those licenses.

I also think it would do away with the gossip and speculation that Game and Fish will not go to any type of point system for residents because at present they make sure that G&F employees and special people get certain licenses more often than the general applicants. I know LOTS of people who are absolutely convinced that the present system is "fixed" so certain pools of people get licenses more ofthen than the regular pool of applicants. We could do away with that with some simple changes.

Good discussion; keep it up.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-13-09 AT 08:29AM (MST)[p]Jims,

I can see your point. However, a lot of non-residents use their points on regions, not limited quota areas. Such points, wouldn't be needed for residents to hunt general areas.Meaning, more pressure on the limited quota areas.

All the numbers I collected were for mule deer only.

If Wyoming goes to a preference point system, I say use Nevada's system. Any hardcore hunter will tell you they have the best system going. I suggest breaking down all the units in the state, and going to limited quota. I would be more than happy with a preference point system then. It would spread out the hunters throughout the state, not just in 25 units.

Wyoming is stupid not to have a preference point system for the simple fact it would raise a lot more money. If the people who applied for limited quota deer last year paid $25 for a point it would be equal to $309,300. That's $309,300 more than they had in their budget last year. That's just for deer! With that money they could hire a few more game wardens.
 
Amen G14. Thanks for doing all of this homework. I'll use it in a couple of weeks when I attend a couple of season-setting meetings. I agree as well; Nevada does have the best system and we would do well to emulate it. And over $300,00 per year is a lot of $$$ that they could put to good use.
 
As a young Wyomingite I am strongly against any point system for residents. I have also experienced both sides of having good luck and bad luck with the random draw. I've went several years without drawing a single tag even though the deer, elk, and antelope areas I put in for were each about 30% draw odds. I finally drew a deer tag in 07 that typically has around 30% odds and it took me 8 years to get that tag, but I got lucky and drew it again in 08. It turns out that area is no longer what it once was and I would have much rather hunted the general areas. I've also been lucky and had 4 good bull elk tags in the last 5 years (also around 30% draw odds). When it comes to antelope I haven't had much luck drawing a good tag the last few years, so I just switched to an easier draw area and drew a decent tag last year. I think the draw system is fine the way it is. Then again I don't waste my time putting in for many of the overrated hard to draw areas for deer and elk. About the only thing I like in limited quota deer areas is not having to deal with as many people. But I am confident that I can find as good of bucks in general as in any of the limited quota areas I've hunted. So for this I pray that deer never goes all limited quota. I guess my philosophy is if I don't get drawn for deer or elk, I can hunt general and probably do just as good. If a point system happens then the odds of drawing a tag two years in a row will become virtually impossible, and I doubt that an area with 33% draw odds currently will be able to be drawn every 3 years with a point system. Finally if, God forbid, they do go to a point system please don't do it like the current point system for moose and sheep. Nevada's seems pretty good.
No point system please, and please please please no more limited quota deer or elk areas!
 
Not draw 2 yrs in a row??OMG,how would that be?I'd be tickled to draw once every 4-5 yrs!!The present system is flawed at best.It favors lucky folks too much,and I'm not really lucky at drawings.I know plenty who are,though.It gets pretty frustrating to see the same people constantly draw the premium tags,while the rest of us rarely do.Wyo,it sounds like you have plenty of years ahead of you to hunt.Believe me,you will see lots of changes in the years ahead.I haven't drawn a limited quota elk in 20 yrs.I drew one in my life.I think it's about my turn.It would be nice if the state of Wyo thought the same thing.At my age,I need to draw that pretty soon!!I think if the process is carefully thought out,we could come up with a viable solution that would help the unlucky while still giving the lucky ones decent odds.There have been some excellent suggestions on this thread.Maybe we can actually ger some dialogue going!
 
Wyo- I find it strange you put in for deer and elk draw areas every year, and then you no way want to see any more draw areas? Its a shame you didn't hunt some of the high country deer areas before they became so popular, if you had, Im sure you would want to see some controls on the hoards of residents. Im sure many hunters in Colorado had a hard time when the limited quota statewide deer hunts went into place a few years ago, but I bet not many would ever go back to the general hunts, the improvment in quality has been so dramatic. Your opinion seems misplaced when you decry a point system of some sort, you are against the 75% 25% split like currently in place for sheep and moose ect. that I understand, but there are many other types of point systems that reward consistancy in applying, and I think that increases fairness, Nevadas system is tough on young people trying for trophy species as is Wyomings, Utahs is probably less tough, and Arizonas even less so, in my opinion even one extra ticket in the hat for every year not drawn would be an improvement over the pure random draw.
 
I can't believe it takes 20 years or more to draw a elk or deer tag in Wyoming! For that i can see why a person would favor a point system. My point on not making deer all limited quota is that I do like one thing about limited quota areas, there are usually less people. If an area is being overhunted then maybe it should become limited quota, but I don't like the idea of doing away with general areas. If everything was LQ, and I didn't draw a tag then I wouldn't be able to hunt at all that year, with general I can still hunt every year and not have to settle for some second choice, or leftover area that I really don't want to hunt. All I know is if it comes down to a point system, I wouldn't mind doing it similar to Utah's bonus and prefernce point system. The primary reason I live in Wyoming is because of the great hunting opportunity, and if it gets to the point that I can't hunt every year then I'm not so sure I would want to live here anymore. I just feel blessed to be able to still have a quality general hunt if I didn't luck out in the draw, and with the luck I've been having it's about my turn to not draw a tag at all this year but I'm ok with that.
 
You guys seem to have a lot on your plate. Good luck wading through all that. I hope you can work something out that is best solution for the most hunters.

I love WY but I'll probably never hunt there again unless they get around to getting rid of that stupid "non-res required to have a guide in wilderness areas" law. Wilderness is half the reason I love to hunt, and I don't need a guide to help me get through it. I know, it's no skin of the residents' noses, so it ain't ever going to change. But if I had my way, I'd have every other Western state pass a reciprical law that denies WY residents access to the other state's own wilderness areas.

It's interesting to me to see some whine about the number of non-res tag allotments, knowing that WY doesn't allow non-res access to some of the best areas anyway, unless they're willing to shell out an additional couple thousand over and above the amount they're already shelling out for the tag.


Don't give me that safety argument either--we all know that's B.S. when you allow unguided non res hikers and fisherman into those same areas.

Sorry for the rant. I really do wish you all the best. There's just something about that particular law that really pizzes me off... x(
 
I dont know why some think Nevada's system is so great? I would take Utah's, colorado's or wyomings (NR) system over Nevada's any day.
 
Piper is right on the money a few posts back. As a resident here in Colorado it was a real eye opener awhile back when they went to strictly limimted tag deer hunting and started taking preference points to draw the more popular areas. Now that it has been in place for quite some time I dont think there is a resident around that wants to change it. You know why ? Because it works, and has improved the quality of our deer and the quality of our hunts. Colorado is THE deer state hands down along with the title of trophy deer state having more B&C bucks taken the last ten years than anywhere period. Until Wyoming gets something like this in place you guys will be in the back seat and remain in the back seat. There is no need to be in the back seat either, you have the genetics and the numbers and the topography to be one of the best. I think what needs to change more than anything is the mentality like we had to do here in Colorado. Gary
 
Elkcrazy1 and others make a great example of Colo's success going to all limited for deer! It has been amazing to see the turn around in the quality of bucks and quality experience. There are still units that can be drawn 2nd choice and most Colo deer units take only 0 to 2 pts to draw! There are super bucks available in just about every Colo unit!

As a striking contrast is Colo's current elk! General units have crowded conditions and dink bulls and the relatively few limited units currently take 8 to 16 pts to draw! I have been lobbying for years to convert over to all limited units for elk without success. It is amazing that the same guys that are so excited about Colo deer are strongly apposed to all limited elk! It has been pretty tough to explain that, if given a chance elk would be similar to Colo deer. It has gotten to the point that I don't even elk hunt in Colo the years I don't draw a limited unit because I don't enjoy hunting dink bulls in crowded conditions in general units! This is similar to what Wyo is currently facing with general deer and down the road may be similar w/elk?

Obviously each state's pref/bonus pt system has it's advantages and it is pretty tough to please everyone. For species with lots of tags and units (such as WY antelope) a system similar to Wyo's current nonres pref pt system works fantastic; however, for species like sheep and goat where there are few tags and loads of applicants a system similar to NV or UT would be an advantage for everyone that applies (young hunters just starting out as well as those that have applied for many years). Colo has a different pref pt system for sheep/goat compared to deer/elk which tends to work fairly well for Colo res.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-15-09 AT 09:10AM (MST)[p]I'm a non-resident and hunt WYoming almost every year for deer and antelope on public land. The NR wilderness law does limit us, but we are able to find good non-wilderness land to hunt. I'd like to see a few less hunters in G&H, but only to see the quality of bucks come back. We don't see that many guys when(not opener) and where we hunt. Wyoming is the only state we can count on drawing each year and the Pref/random system seems to work for us. We will probably never draw a limited quota hunt again, but we are hunting each year and killing some decent animals. I will say this, NR's do foot the bill for WY G&F! Four of us just dropped $4,648 for deer and antelope tags. Keep the NR's in mind when you lobby to create more opportunity.
 
Jims, could you imagine the Colorado elk hunt if it went to limited licenses too, like deer ? I truly hope Wyoming does something like this with their deer it would be awesome and the residents who disagree would be agreeing in a couple years time !
 
I'm not sure why alot of you keep saying that "it would improve the quality of deer". I counted a dozen deer in different general areas last year that would go 170 plus. I missed a deer in 1 general area that with out a doubt would of gone 190+ typical and connected on a 180 in the high country(another general area). I hunted the high country for 5 days without seeing a single other person. I hunt there every year..some years i see a couple guys some years i don't. I see alot of big deer and every now and then i see a monster. Before i go hunting the high country i spend most of my time hunting some general areas down in the flats with my bow during september. I have the whole month to check different areas. The only reason that has not worked out is for some reason i really suck with a bow when it comes to hitting something that isn't a foam ball(hence the missed 190). That fact is that every year i see deer in all these general areas that are trophy class. I can move from area to area to find something i like. Thats whats great about being a resident. In wyoming you can drive 10 minutes and be in some great muley country. With 2/3rds of the state being public land the options are endless. I put in for a limited quota tag each year. Sometimes i draw sometimes i don't. If i don't i really don't get that upset. Wyoming has provided a ton of opportunities for me to fall back on. As far as i'm concerned my odds are almost as good for getting a big buck with a general tag. Don't think i have tons of time on my hands either. I work alot of hours, but during the hunting season i use the time i'm not working to hop in the truck and drive 30 minutes away to do some spot and stalk with my bow(usually without success thanks to my retarded bow skills). The fact is however i know that i see trophy deer every year. I see more big deer now then i have in the past. You would have a hard time convincing me that i would be better off with a point system. I enjoy hunting..not sitting around for 3 years waiting for the opportunity to go.
 
West,
I think it's fantastic that you have a great experience hunting Wyo gen deer units every year. From my experience w/Wyo general deer your hunts are the exception to the norm.

Not trying to downplay what you posted above, but can you imagine what it may be like if the general units you currently hunt had a quota? Do you think the quality of bucks would increase? I have a feeling you would see even more 170+ bucks!

What I've been trying to point out is that if Wyo deer or Colo elk were limited, the WG&F/CDOW would be able to manage the herds and hunting pressure a lot more effectively than they currently are! It is nearly impossible to manage unlimited number of hunters where there is a limited supply of resources!

There are B&C bucks shot just about every year in Colo units that can be drawn w/0 pref pts or even as a 2nd choice. The nice thing about it is that deer hunter numbers are limited and you can still draw these tags every year!
 
West- thats amazing, I have not seen a really big trophy buck in Wyoming, summer or winter in over 5 years,Ive heard storys and seen pictures though, so I want you to tell me where you are hunting, Im sure a little company wouldn't crowd you out. No really, thats exceptional, but a look at the B and C record book shows a much different trend over the last decade, and If Wyoming went to a limited quota for deer Im sure there would be plenty of hunting opportunity every year for all residents, just not everybody in the same areas, A multiple choice first draw format like Nevada does would insure that.
 
As a resident wyoming hunter I have shot a 383 bull elk a 190 mule deer all on a general tag if your not getting the same results your not hunting
I run a custom butcher shop and here this all the time that there are no big deer no big elk. Get out and do your home work. I'm not saying that all you dont but ill bet over 50% are road hunters. I use my bow rifle tag for scouting its a chance to get out hike around and see whats out there. Oh and we would be damned fools for cutting of the non res hunters they have just as much right to hunt as we do. Why should I have to draw for a deer tag when i can go in the back country and get any buck i want and not see any other hunters
 
butcher, to tell somone they are not hunting because they arnt killing B&C animals is a bone head statment, so i suppose you do this good every year huh? B&C records tell the real story.
 
I totally agree with butcher307 and west. I strongly believe many of the gnereal areas are as good or better than the limited quota areas. The biggest deer I've killed was general. In fact I have been fortunate enough to draw a fairly coveted late season mule deer tag two years in a row now. I hunted my a$$ off and know the area like the back of my hand. The end result, I would have much rather had a general tag and hunted some of my old areas. I killed a 164" buck this year and it was the second biggest buck I seen, the other was a low 170's that was poached. The year prior I didn't even fill the tag as I never even seen a buck in the 160's. I use to always think having a limited quota tag was so much better, but with the 3 different LQ tags I've had they were no better than general. Probably some of the biggest bucks I've ever seen were in general areas. If i don't draw a tag this year oh well, I'm actually half way excited about trying a new general elk area that I know holds very good bulls, but it's wilderness and requires horses...should be a good time! I am just not convinced that doing away with general hunting and implementing a point system is going to benefit me in any way. I have zero complaints with the way things are right now. One discalimer though, if a general area is truly being overhunted and the game is so scarce that it cannot support much hunting then it should be limited, however I am not aware of any areas like that.
 
i don't think butcher meant that he shoots a b&c every year. To add to his statement though..i do think that if a person puts in the effort he can find a trophy muley in the wyoming general areas. I don't think anybody that has hunted trophy muleys would agrue with me that finding a trophy muley is completely different then harvesting one. I have had alot more deer get away then i have harvested. Usually without a shot ever being fired.
 
These are the same thoughts and mentality that we had here in Colorado too, no different. Like I said, I wouldnt go back now to the way it was for anything given the choice. We have THE best mule deer hunting, I guess that kinda speaks for itself, well that and the B&C club if that looks better to you guys. Like I said, if you enjoy the backseat thats probably where you'll stay only you can change it and regardless of what some are saying it needs to be done and hopefully you will all see this soon.
 
elkcrzy1 - well stated. People just don't know what we have or more likely what we could have.

The thing that amazes me and that I'll never get over is that ALL ANTELOPE in Wyoming are managed by area. And it has been that way for years. All limited quota, no regions, no over-the-counter licenses. And what is Wyoming best known for? And what species puts more Wyoming critters in the books every year? Antelope. And everyone who wants to hunt antelope, whether resident or nonresident, gets to hunt every year. But if we had preference points, I would have had several licenses in the Red Desert since 1991; not the zero I have drawn. We'd have a fair system and quality hunting.

And I agree wholeheartedly about the Colorado comments. I hunt deer there every year. They really do have better deer hunting than we do. Funny that David Long lives in an area that has what could be some of the best deer hunting in the world. And he has taken two monsters in Colorado recently. Might be a hint there somewhere. Why is he killing those monsters in CO if he has them by the hordes in his backyard?

Wyoming could have much better and healthier deer herds with just a little managemnt. I see big deer every year, and we shoot some of them. But it could be a lot better. That's all I want - to make it better.
 
Wyo and west, look at the record book and its easy to see whats happening, It makes me sick to see the state manage deer like Idaho does instead of the way Colorado does, all three states have habitat and genetics for awesome antlers, they all have lots of backcountry, and all have produced a bunch of record book bucks in the past, but only Colorado truly manages their deer herds, and only Colorado has great trophy deer hunting opportunity now.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-16-09 AT 09:50AM (MST)[p]Using the record book...please point out all the book mule deer that are currently coming out of the limited quota areas. Show me that the limited quota areas are producing more book deer than the general areas.

I'll be listening to the sound of crickets...

Oh, and if the deer hunting is so great in Colorado...go kill a booner every year there. Nothing stopping Wyoming residents from hunting Colorado every year.

Also, I dont know why anyone would wait several years to draw the red desert units for antelope (57, 58, 61)...way over-rated.
 
Buzz, not to stir it up, but what does that say for wyomings managment of mule deer if the general area's are better than the LQ area's? I would say its probly partly to do with how rugged H&G are, and maybe the great genetics, but will you agree that it isnt what it once was and is possibly over hunted?

I dont think it would hurt to cut the nonres and residents back a bit, this is never the popular thing to do, but maybe it would be best for the deer?

I also dont understand the thing about the Red Desert, i hunt wyoming pronghorn every year because i love it. i took a B&C buck out of a not so popular unit last year, the year before i took a 78" buck from the same unit, and if draw odds stay the same, i'll be back this year!I will say that the Red Desert is the only place in wyoming i have seen more than one true 16" buck in a trip, but we all know mass is what its about!
 
OK Im gonna hammer away at your proposls ICMDEER. Proposal #2, who cares how long or with what weapon you use, you still only get to kill once. Proposal #5, a lot of locals shoot deer from the windows of their trucks, so leave the trophy management to the biologists. Propasal #6, let the kids hunt like crazy only for management needs, anterless, forkys etc. Dont give them sheep tags or rut hunts in the best units. They can play the game like the rest of us! Proposal #8, let the non-resi hate go! they fund most management and deserve better treatment. I like the rest of your proposals. BH1
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-16-09 AT 01:42PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-16-09 AT 01:28?PM (MST)

REDDOG,

I'd say you get the comment if you're finding booner antelope in not-so-popular areas.

Thats my point, why fight crazy draw odds when you dont have to?

Lots of hunters think if they draw the red desert units they're going to kill a book antelope for sure...I think they should quit sniffing glue.

Its always funny to see pictures of average antelope shot in the famous red desert with a story that starts with, "I waited 7 years to draw this tag.....".

Not saying there arent good bucks there in good years, just 99% of the people that hunt those units never get one.

As to the deer, my point is that the limited quota areas are not producing many booner sized deer while the general areas are. I think using a record book ALONE is not painting a picture of whats going on in all areas. I think a better way to look at the deer herds is on an over-all age structure basis. Not many deer, even in severely limited quota areas, will ever be a B&C deer. I think if there are a decent percentage of buck deer that are reaching 6-10 years old then that herd is being managed correctly...whether or not that area produces B&C class animals or not.

Again, I dont think there have been enough other ideas tried to go as drastic as making the entire state limited quota. I believe that much can be done regarding access...or lack there-of. Not mentioned at all in any of the ideas proposed by the original poster.

I dont want hunting deer in Wyoming to come down to who gets lucky in the draw and who doesnt. I'd rather see less access, shorter seasons, etc. before we hit the panic button.

ICMDeer whines and cries about not drawing the best antelope areas in Wyoming...but what do you think would happen if the whole state is draw only for deer? You'll still face ridiculously low draw odds for the best areas.

That scenerio leaves 2 options:

1. You draw one good tag every 10+ years.

2. You hunt lesser areas, much the same as the general areas now.

So, my contention is, why change it? In the end you'll be changing virtually nothing.

Access is the dead moose in the middle of the room that everyone is ignoring.
 
here are some bucks that i was after in a general area. The 190+ buck i mentioned earlier was just over the hill with a similiar bunch of deer(no picture, but he put these to shame). You guys have mentioned that in colorado you wouldn't want to go back, but that people didn't want to change in the beginning. That is fine and well, but i have not experienced that. The only thing i have experienced is being able to have opportunities at nice deer each year. I dont' always connect, but i have a wall that shows i sometimes do. I can only base my thoughts on this topic based on my experience, and my experience tells me there is no need to make changes. Now for the antelope being brought up you don't need to go anywhere near the red desert to get a b & c antelope. In 4 years i've gotten 2 book bucks and 2 that missed because of net. one was just over 16in and one was just under 17in. Almost any wyoming unit has trophy antelope. I think antelope is a different story then muledeer however. Antelope would be slaughtered in a general season because they are out in the open. I've always told people that getting an antelope is as easy as waking up in the morning, but getting a big antelope is one of the hardest things you can try and do. Some of you think that wyoming should go to prefernce points.You have obviously had different experiences then i have. I also know that have never taken 1 look at the list of B&C bucks and where they have come from, so my opinion is not based on that at all. If i had to give a vote i wouldn't change a thing. I also wouldn't change the amount of non res that hunt here. I understand that they front a good chunk of the bill. As long as they respect the wyoming lands the way i do i am all for them and will help them out the same way i would help a wyoming resident.
49bea81d772a1922.jpg


49bea84377d2e717.jpg
 
West, good post, nice bucks too.

I've taken a couple decent bucks in Wyo's general areas too...even mananged to find some sheds and photograph a couple.

From a general area:

bigbuck.jpg


bigbuck4.jpg


bigbuck5.jpg
 
Heres a set of sheds (re-attached to a fake skull plate) that a good friend of mine found, also in a general area:

Runty little thing...only gross scores 203ish...nets around 194.

Shedmuledeer5.jpg


Side view of the runt:

shedmuledeer2.jpg
 
Managed to find a few "ghosts" on public land in general areas as well:

2004 gross 184 5/8:

buzzmd04.JPG


2005 gross score 196 3/8:

IMG_0583_4_1_1.JPG


2006 gross score 174:

IMG_1461.JPG
 
G14
those deer were on 100% public land. Its hard to get anywhere near private anymore. Alot of ranchers who use to let you are outfitted now.
 
Buzz - not sure who twisted your panties, but I did not whine or cry, just stated a fact. There are big antelope all over Wyoming, but the highest percentage of Booners come from Carbon and Sweetwater counties; out of those Red Desert areas.

And my point is still that with good management, which is area hunting for antleope, you can kill good bucks all over the state. If we had unlimited antelope areas for the entire state of Wyoming, as we mostly do for deer, (or regionla for nonresidnets) our antleope hunts would not be near as good. I shot a 78 inch buck on a second choice license last time I hunted and did not try too hard. Could have possibly done better, so there are great antelope in lefotver areas.

I do agree with you that the limited quota deer areas are often not as good as the other unlimited licenses. But that does make a statement about the quality of management of the limited quota areas. Maybe they are just not as good as they are held up to be. My whole goal for starting this post was to get some good interaction. I think we've done that.

No need for name calling. Simple disagreement is pretty good stuff, like in your first email, but this last stuff is over the line. Just not necessary.
 
Thats the mentality I was talking about earlier, some guys just have no clue what they could have. These same guys probably have never hunted outside Wyoming (not that its a bad thing) to see what they are missing. Im absolutely sure they never witnessed what deer hunting was like in Colorado as opposed to what it is now either or they wouldnt be arguing, its actually funny.
 
The area I hunt in Colorado takes 1 point for archery and 3 for rifle if you were wondering and Id pass up most of those bucks Buzz thats what limited licenses do for ya.
Theres alot more antelope in most of your areas than there is deer in this deer area so with limited licenses I seriously dont think youd be waiting 10 years but that really isnt a fair comparison either.
 
OK we have had show and tell, and I see why things probably won't change, actually I figured that out a few years ago. Funny but I really thought more of the guys on MM would be thinking more like I do. Region G and H are areas that can produce a lot of deer with the ability to grow record book antlers, most hunting in those areas is general, and thats one of the reasons why you see some big deer come from the general areas , with eight to ten thousand hunters out there, a few good bucks are bound to be taken every year. There could be some really great hunting there, but its pounded and thats the way it is, what I will say is that if the hunting were managed similar to the way Colorado does, there would be many times more big record book deer taken in Wyoming every year than are taken now, not only that but hunters would see many more, the hunting experence would be better, and regardless of your hunting ability all hunters would have a much greater chance of killing a real trophy antlered buck over set period of time.
 
Elkcrzy1- I had the opportunity to hunt Colorado deer in the 80s in the 90s and a few times recently, I also hunted the Wyoming high country in the 80s, and thats where I live now, no doubt thats why I have a different perspective than some of these folks, anyway thanks for sharing your viewpoint.
 
Exactly right and Im done with this post it isnt doing any good talking to people who dont want a positive change.
 
Ill stick with my negative as well with West. If you dont like hunting in Wyoming then go hunt another state. I've hunted Utah Idaho Wyoming Montana Colorado and I prefer high country Wyoming hunts more than any other state. That's just me but what do I know I deal with thousands of hunters every year with the same story "I've never seen a big buck" Its funny how my family and friends shoot nothing smaller than a 160 class buck on general tags. Good luck to all this coming hunting season, your welcome to follow me up the mountain.
 
Elkcrzy,

Good to know you'd pass "most" of those bucks...the big NT that I took the pictures of...conservatively 230 inches. If you passed that 203 typical...you'd be a fool. I think you'd be unwise to pass bucks over 180 gross...but I guess you're the man...so I'll trust your judgement.

Oh, and in case you were wondering, I've hunted MT for 29 straight seasons, Wyoming for the last 9 straight, Arizona for the last 7-8 years, Colorado a few times, Alaska 3 years. I have enough points to hunt Utah any time I choose, but what a drag only being able to get one good tag every 15 years.

I get out a fair bit, not to mention 150+ days a year for work in ID, MT, WY, CO, AZ, and UT. I cover some ground.

piper, did you really just say this?

"not only that but hunters would see many more, the hunting experence would be better, and regardless of your hunting ability all hunters would have a much greater chance of killing a real trophy antlered buck over set period of time."

Thats EXACTLY why I dont want the whole state to go limited quota. How is the hunting experience going to be better when I only get to hunt once ever 3-10 years? Elkcrzy1 said his area takes 3 years to draw (I'm assuming he's a CO resident). Thats pure crap, I dont want to wait ONE year to hunt. I dont need to kill a deer every year, but I want to hunt every year.

Your last point in that paragraph, what a steaming pile of pure BS...

Why do I have to sacrifice my opportunities to level the playing field for hunters with less ability? I have to give up seasons and tags so that some six-fingered banjo picker with fat dripping off his ear-lobs can drive up and whack a trophy buck in a draw area?

I have a better idea...how about those that put in the most effort get the most reward.

Again, what you guys are proposing is a plan to make it EASIER to get trophy class animals for those not willing to do anything more than draw a freakin' tag.

That is something that I'm not willing to do. I am willing to limit access, cut out the ATV's completely, and provide more secure habitat. Limit access and you'll have more big bucks for the people that are willing to work for them. Frankly, I think thats the way it should be.

If you want a sure thing...try a game farm, but leave my season and opportunities alone. I dont need to be providing yet another form of welfare to the lazy.
 
You guys have a better idea of whats going on in general area's than i do, so i cant argue. I havent had the time to hunt muleys in wyoming for years now, I spend my time on muleys in colorado, and would shoot most of those bucks posted. I guess things arnt as bad in G&H as other threads make it out to be?

Buzz, if you have the points to draw Utah, what the hell are you waiting for? if its for deer, you have got to check out the Henry's,there are some incredible bucks on that mountain!
 
BuzzH-I don't even know why I waste my time, Who ever said 3 to ten years? there would be opportunity for every resident to hunt deer somewhere every year if they choose to, and yes I said that and I meant it, thats the exact reason Colorado now produces far more record book deer each year than when they sold over the counter deer tags, its not rocket science, but when there are more mature deer they have bigger antlers, maybe some one else could explain it to you better, I get tired of it, your pathetic comment about fat dripping earlobes speaks for itself. I have climbed peaks over twenty two thousand feet high,walked hundreds of miles in the Himalayas climbed Gannett peak alone on my 50th birthday, have a couple animals in the book,ect, so save your diatribe for someone else. You guys now have it the way you like it, I doubt the Wyoming game and fish is going to change, so don't get upset, I and a few others were only stating our opinions on what we believe would improve trophy quality in the deer herds, and its not because were lazy.
 
REDDOG, none of those deer I posted were taken in G or H. I have hunted H a couple times with a friend of mine. I glassed up and he shot a 193 typical the first day I ever hunted in H.

As to Utah, I'm at the point where I can draw most anything BUT the Henries. I apply for a lot of tags and want to wait for a proper year and a proper tag...beings how it will likely be the only time I get to hunt Utah. Why? Because it takes 10+ points (years) to draw...just the way some here think all of WY should be.

piper,

To what point are you proposing to cut tags in Wyoming to level the playing field so that all people with even marginal hunting abilities can have a chance?

If you cut the tags so some fat piece of crap can shoot one off the handle bars of his atv with no effort....how many tags do we need to cut to afford him that equal chance?

If you cut the tags to that point, (the point of providing opportunity to the lowest common denominator) you'll be lucky to only have to wait 10 years to draw.

How do you know that your proposal will allow me to hunt "somewhere" in the state of Wyoming every year? How do you KNOW how long it will take to draw a tag in ANY unit if the whole state were LE only?

Also, how do you think it would be for people who live in say Star Valley, to have to tell their kids they'll have to wait 10 years to hunt the country thats right in their back yard? What do you think that will do for hunter recruitment? Since most people in those types of places dont make big money, havent hiked the Himilayas, etc. they might find it a bit of stretch to have to travel to Sundance to hunt deer.

Its a bad idea for a lot of reasons to make the whole state Limited Quota area. Its a short-sighted sorry excuse for a plan. There are things to try before it has to come down to that, and NONE of those have been discussed. I'd rather only have 5 days to hunt deer EVERY year than have to wait 3+ years for a tag. I'd rather limit access. I'd rather change the timing of some hunts.

I'm also glad the G&F isnt pandering to the very few who (IMO, selfishly) entertain this kind of crap. The people doing the most complaining, have had the OPPORTUNITY to hunt a very long time in Wyoming EVERY SINGLE YEAR...those same people are now systematically trying to deny that privilege to others through a crazy idea of making the entire state Limited Quota.

Why? Because THEY want another chance at a hunt the way it was 20 years ago.

Times change, deer habits change, and the hunters that change are still successful. Those that are stuck in the 60's, 70's, and 80's...well, they just find it easier to complain.
 
BuzzH- sometimes tags have to be cut dramaticly for a few years in order to let deer mature, then they can increase tags and still maintain quality, thats what Colorado did in the Gunnision basin and the consensus was that it worked. I grew up hunting in Nevada where there are a lot more hunters than deer or deer tags, and when I was a resident I only remember going without a deer tag once, I hunted different areas many times, sometimes I hunted archery or muzzleloader, but learning new country or using primative weapons isn't that bad, in this state you may have to hunt the Wind rivers sometimes instead of the Salt rivers or something like that, but Im sure there would be plenty of opportunity, primative weapons are another way to have opportunity without wiping out the resource, I really think letting every resident go hunting with a rifle on Sept 15 in some of these areas is hurting the quality of those deer herds. my point about everybody having a better chance at a trophy is just about there being more big mature deer on the mountain. Like you,I wish we had more roadless country, less access, and more restrictions on ATVs , but those are hard things to make headway on.
 
thank you buzzh and butcher +1,000,000..your last statements hit the nail right on the head. I also find it hard to beleive that anybody would pass on any of those bucks you shot. On a added note..i would strip down and run naked through the streets if could get ATV's banned from going anywhere near high country hunting area's. I think the only threat to deer worse then wolves is ATV's. ATV's are all to commonly used improperly for hunting purposes.

Piper
The biggest issue i have with your statement is this. (besides you making it sound like we are thick headed bumpkins for not being able to get your ideas through our heads). You may "pass up" most of those deer shown. The fact is those deer are mature deer. They may not make your "standards", but i don't know what to tell you about that. They would make 99.9% of everybody else's standards.
 
Is that all anybody cares about is the B&C deer. This is supposed to be a sport not about who gets the biggest and best. Again if you think wyoming hunting is so bad feel free to go somewhere else, as for me and my friends and family that have hunted here for the last 100 years we love it.
 
BuzzH,

You're right. Times have changed. It is not the 60's, 70's, or 80's, and the habitat has changed. For as long as I can remember, Wyoming G&F have managed the deer the same, and haven't changed. Please explain how so much can changed for the mule deer, but our management for the mule deer hasn't changed a bit. Last year, if the WY G&F had enough applicants, would have issued 2,478 non-resident tags for region D. Region D has areas 66, 70, 74-81,83, and 161. I'm not sure about area 161, but areas 66 and 70 open up Oct 15, and 74-81,83 open up Oct 1. How can the WY G&F justify letting 2,478 non-residents and unknown numbers of residents hunt these areas, and still have control over the number of deer harvested? Especially, when the WY G&F does not have required reporting! I don't think you can even call the job WY G&F is doing as managing. In these areas we have 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year old bucks doing a lot of the breeding. There are several reasons why a deer herd is better having mature mule deer doing the breeding. We should manage our deer herds for maturity, because it's in the mule deer's best interest. We shouldn't manage our deer herds to make sure everyone has a chance to hunt.

It is widely known that the mule deer have been declining over the years, but yet, we still have long seasons and unlimited amount of hunters trying to harvest them. I'm glad you guys have an area where you can harvest mature deer, but that doesn't mean the area is being managed properly. You say that kids in Star Valley shouldn't have to wait to hunt their backyard. I say I shouldn't have to travel 4 to 5 hours to have a decent chance of harvesting a mature deer.
 
G14,

Now we're making progress.

I agree with much of what you said. Thats why I propose that limiting access, adopting atv restrictions similar to Idaho's, making seasons shorter, and adjusting the timing of some hunts should all be considered and tried before we head down the road of limited quota areas. I cant tell you, once that path is taken, there isnt any going back. Its almost a given that if the state goes all LQ, there will be many hunters sitting on the side-lines and not hunting anywhere every year. I'm not willing to sacrifice to that point without trying other things first.

There are other avenues to take, and frankly, guys like ICMDEER, never bring any of those up. Piper says, "Its just too hard to do". I disagree...why did Idaho have success in limiting atv use there? Wasnt too difficult to change things there regarding the atv crap. Also, a little trigger restraint by even 10% of the hunters out there would go a long way to helping things out...again thats never discussed.

Also, I think many here are wrongly comparing Colorado and Wyoming. Colorado is much different than Wyoming in many ways. Kind of like comparing apples and aardvark's.

I'm also in total agreement with mandatory reporting of harvests, and I have reported every animal I've taken in Wyoming since I moved here 9 years ago.

That brings another key point to the table, that there isnt even an established base-line of what works and what doesnt. I think its pretty safe to say that limited quota areas dont necessarily mean B&C deer..as evidenced by many of the areas that are currently LQ in Wyoming.


I believe that its possible and workable to come up with a plan that provides both opportunity and quality...at least opportunity for those willing to put in the effort. I know of a couple antelope areas where theres plenty of opportunity and quality as well. Take a guess what the limiting factor is? Access, many walk-in only areas and hardly anyone is willing to walk. I'm starting to strongly see that there in lies the rub. I think theres a bunch of lazy a$$ed hunters out there that find it too difficult to do what it takes to find and bag a mature deer in Wyomings general areas. They want to be able to drive the atv, rhino, etc. right up to their spot and whack a mature buck from the seat of a machine.

Thats the biggest problem I have with only LQ areas, hunting big bucks shouldnt be easy, and in many places, it flat is. That cheapens the experience and the intent of the sport IMO. I've never judged the experience/success of hunting by a B&C score or by how close to the atv, rhino, razor, etc. etc. etc. I shot one.

Call me old fashioned, but I think that success should be directly proportional to the effort applied...not directly proportional to who has the most luck in a draw.
 
Do you even have a clue how a preference point draw works or a bonus point draw ? It isnt luck its a fair way of distributing tags so that a guy has a decent chance to draw a great area. You residents cant even hunt unit 7, I drew it last year and chances are great that I will hunt it again before alot of you...lol
You must know how a bonus point system works if your hunting Arizona the last what 7 or 8 years in a row you say Buzz ? Thats great, I know residents who hunt once every 7 or 8 years, or every 10 years but maybe your hunting doves or quail and you can compare your deer in Wyoming with the deer in Arizona from that ? Who knows, but you arent hunting quality deer or elk areas in Arizona every year to compare I can tell you that. If you in fact do have enough points in Utah to supposedly draw anywhere you want to go then you are the fool my friend because you have the opportunity of a lifetime passing you by so I call BS on that one too.
If you have hunted Colorado for any amount of years then you have surely seen the difference in the deer hunting that we have and there is no question what the limited tags have done. You may not see that yourself and I can understand that from this conversation so you may want to ask someone else like say Garth Carter who is a hunting guru and also has a little background in game management to see what he says about the deer management in Wyoming and what needs to be done. Limiting acccess and use of 4 wheelers basically has nothing to do with it guys get real.
 
one of the most important and beneficial changes to having quotas based on the deer herds themselves is that they bounce back after hard winters, excessive hunting pressure is a predator pit, shortening the seasons and changing dates are the only tools WGF has, and most of the time that doesn't help much.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-18-09 AT 09:46PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-18-09 AT 09:25?PM (MST)

One avenue to change the pressure and deer management in the state would be to make the opening days on the same date. The season lengths have already been cut back to one week in most areas. Many people with general tags will hunt opening in day in several areas. Make people choose which area they want to hunt, and the pressure drops. Make the season close on the same date, reduce the success rate. At the end of the day, fewer deer taken and hunters have the opportunity to hunt each year.

Trophy deer are trophy deer for a reason . . . there aren't many out there. What happens if we get all these "Trophy" areas 20 years after they start producing? A 180 buck doesn't mean crap and the new standard is 220. I enjoy getting a trophy deer as much as the next guy. I hunt hard for a trophy deer every year. I'll put in for some of the special limited quota areas for a change of pace. I have seen the deer numbers drop, I've also seen the elk numbers grow. I do think the habitat can support more deer. Lastly, I think the heard can be managed for larger herd sizes through methods other than limited quota.

When the hunt is over, reflect on all the good things about it. It's not all about the horns on the wall. However, they do look damn good, don't they!
 
Elkcrzy,

Fitting name...at least the crzy part.

Tell me how a bogus point or preference system is fair?

I've got a stack of points in NV, MT, WY, CO, AZ, and UT. So do a lot of my friends...and they arent close to drawing some of the top units in those states for multiple species. The best most of us can hope for is to luck into a lesser unit.

Without max points in the preference states, you're screwed for the best units...and thats a fact. How many tags for the arizona strip or the kaibab have went to anyone with less than max preference points in AZ lately?

I'm fully aware of how well the system works...it doesnt. If deer go LQ in Wyoming, you'll be lucky to hunt some of the top areas in 10 years. I suspect some will even be a longer wait.

In the last 7 years in Arizona, I've drawn 1 elk tag, 1 deer tag, and 6 javelina permits. So, yes, I have drawn tags for 7-8 years in a row and hunted there. Matter of fact I just finished up a javelina hunt a month or so ago there.

Shot this little guppie last fall during the "general" hunt in Arizona. I have ZERO chance of ever drawing a rut rifle tag in AZ due to their "fair" system. So, I just waited 8 years and settled for a general tag.

AZ_Elk%20056.jpg


The year before I somehow managed to pull an elk tag in a LQ area in Wyoming...didnt even have any points,How did that happen? Oh, and no it wasnt unit 7 and you wont find it listed in your hero Garths monthly rag...

Despite the lack of guru endorsements...I managed to scare up a raghorn and take him with my bow.

553.JPG
 
You think comparing Arizona limited quota tags to Wyoming limited tags is a fair comparison when you have how many more elk than they do ? How many more deer than they do ? You really think youd have to wait 10 years for an elk tag Buzz before you got to draw a quality area ?
I wait maybe 2 or 3 years here in Colorado for a premium tag in the mean time you think I sit and dont hunt ? Thats what your saying and your wrong I hunt every year along with having a limited quota tag drawing. I can draw a second choice tag every year I want too or go archery or I have a ton of choices just like you would in Wyoming not like Arizona...lol
Talk to people with background in game management, people who know something. Every one of them will tell you that Wyoming needs some changes with the deer management. Its really not that hard to see that there are problems going on that need to be fixed.
Like I said I hunted unit 7 for elk last year in Wyoming and I'll hunt it again before alot of you do is that fair for you guys ? Fine with me if you do, I think its fantastic you want to keep it the way it is Buzz.
 
Those are some great bulls your showing off Buzz and from a limited area too...lol huh thats amazing good job.
 
Buzz, your comment on Garth being my hero, I guess your right he is a hero and I have alot of heroes that all have something in common, they know what they are talking about. With a degree in wildlife and being a pretty good hunter too it looks like ? Im not sure, never met the man, Id say he probably is a hero.I look up to my heroes because they know more than me and I can look up to them and learn something from them. You Buzz are no hero. Period
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-09 AT 09:05AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-09 AT 09:03?AM (MST)

Buzz, your being pretty bias. hard to draw units are that way because of trophy quality (except for wyoming, wich seems to be opposite) i live in utah, and to say i wait 15 years to hunt elk and 10 to hunt deer couldnt be further from the truth. everyone seems to forget there are over the counter general bull tags, in area's that hold good numbers and good branch antler bulls, but you have to hunt, so its to hard for most people.

and there is always left over deer tags, so i dont sit out deer season either.

not everyone can hunt the LQ area's, just the way it is, so you hunt general area's till you pull that great tag. to say the points system dont work would be wrong, it works just fine.
also you say you and friends have a stack of bonus points in several states, who's fault is that?I mean, if its good for ICMdeer to put in for a lesser unit than the red desert, then it should be good for you too, whining i think you called it;-)

points system may not be the best for wyoming, like you said there may be other alternatives. wyoming may have the numbers of big game for that to work, not all states do. i have to say, i like how wyo has the non-residents set up.

its funny to read all the guides and residents in other threads saying how crappy the hunting is in G&H, and there isnt a LQ area worth the wait, that somthing has to be done. where are you guys now?
 
I'm still here watching and reading. And I still belive that Wyoming could do LOTS of different things to improve the hunting experience and the deer herds in Wyoming. I will say this - you can't reason with unreasonable people. And I'll also say that some people know things that just are not true. I love Wyoming and live here by choice; can't really imagine living anywhere else. But we have a lot of people that are afraid of positive change. They really do not want to even discuss things in a reasonable manner. It's amazing to me that we can't stick to the issues and have simple disagreement on the issues. Instead, it seems to revert to name calling.

I could post pics of some big deer, antelope and elk here. But I do not post pics. (You can check our website if you want.) Posting pictures does not show that the herds are well managed. And I find it ironic that the elk and antelope management always creep into the core of this discussion, which is Wyoming mule deer. As I have written, both the elk and antleope in Wyoming are much better managed and the units are smaller than the deer management system.

Bottom line to me is that lots of people care about mule deer hunting in Wyoming. That's really good. I appreciate all of the posts here, whether we agree or disagree. It's good to see the folks on MM post and come up with the good ideas. I'll go to two G&F meetings next week, and will use some of the ideas from this thread to make suggestions to them regarding deer seasons.

This discussion lasted much longer than I thought it would. I think I'm done with it for now.
 
Thanks ICM, sorry I got fired up on your post, I apologize. I believe in positive change myself, maybe too much...lol
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-09 AT 10:27AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-09 AT 10:26?AM (MST)

REDDOG,

For the record, I do apply for the lesser units/hunts...as per the elk I shot last year in Arizona. I do the same in other states as well. But, even average tags in Utah take 7+ points for a NR to draw. I've got 10 points right now, will have 11 after this years draw...or maybe a tag. Tell me, is the book cliffs tag worth 10 points? Many people on this forum dont think so, and I dont either. I do the same in Wyoming as per the elk tag I drew the year before last. I also have never applied for a premier antelope tag in Wyoming either. I practice what I preach.

Just curious...how is the general hunting for elk and deer in Utah?

Any crowding issues? Any Utards, whining about the lack of bulls and bucks? Any whining about trophy quality?

I'd have to say so, as I know and work with a fair number of Utah hunters. I also read the discussions on this forum and others about how SFW and the UDWR isnt doing anything to "manage" the general units.

Now, back to the Wyoming discussion...and positive change. If WY deer goes to all LQ areas and are managed strictly for trophy potential...not all Wyoming residents will be hunting mule deer each year, at least not bucks. Thats an unarguable fact.

If you want to see a disaster in WY, go ahead and copy Colorados deer seasons. Lets see how the deer herds handle 3-4 rifle seasons, archery, and muzzleloader. You'll soon learn that there is big difference between apples and arrdvarks.

If we go the route of turning more general areas into LQ areas, say even 25% and leaving the rest general. What do you suppose you're going to see in the remaining open general areas?

You'll see an increase in pressure in all the remaining general areas, again an unarguable fact. With the increased pressure there will be more deer killed in those areas that are still general. The herds in those areas will suffer, again its just a simple fact. So, whats the solution? More LQ areas. Its a vicious domino effect. Pretty quick we dont have decent hunting in any of the general areas and pretty quick we dont have a general hunt at all. For the whiners that say we dont have good hunting in general areas now, I say you're not trying or you havent a clue.

The more areas you can keep open to general hunting the more the pressure will be spread around. Start pulling more areas out of the general and you'll be putting a lot more pressure on the remaining general units. Its simple.

Like I've said more than a few times, there are other routes to take and more things to try before we make the huge leap of putting the entire state into LQ management. That seems to be falling on deaf ears.

Oh, and elkcrzy1, I couldnt give a $hit less who your hero's are.
 
I really dont even know why i am posting on this thread, like i said, i havent hunted muleys in wyo for years now. so i really dont know what is going on except what i read, and it seems its been all bad for awile now.

as for utah general elk and deer, the deer were making a slow come back until last winter. was starting to see good numbers of bucks with the does, somthing that hasnt been seen since '91. but the winter did set them back. i havent shot a muley in utah since '04, so there is room for improvemnt.

bucks like this are very do able, not big but most utards would be thrilled, he had a leg shot out, so i took him.
IMG_0004-2.jpg



the general elk hunt gets better every year, and ya, all i hear is whining that there isnt any elk, but they are there, high and low, you just have to look, here is a few genral bulls

IMG_0001-2-1.jpg


IMG-2-1.jpg


before i get ripped on for the wheeler, i was able to drag this little bull down hill to a two track.
IMG_0002-1-2.jpg


I have a few others, none huge but not exactly extinct in general area's either.most of the crowding is on the roads.

and no, i wouldnt use 10 points on the books, i would use them on a henries managment hunt tho.
sorry to hi-jack the thread, just trying to answer some questoions.
 
I think this thread has gone into the wrong direction. I have been giving my opinion about not wanting to change the system based on my hunting experience. I hunt alot of different areas throughout wyoming. I have found big deer in those areas. I don't hunt from the road. I would not get the satisfaction of taking a trophy buck from the side of the road as i would one i had to get out and hoof it for. I am sure that there are some things wyoming can do to improve on their deer managment. I don't think points is the way to go. I like having the month long bow season. I don't think this in any way hurts the deer herd. I don't see very many guys at all during this season. The guys that i do see tend to be the guys that respect the land as much as i do. Like me they are out there to enjoy the pursuit with filling a tag being far second to the chase itself. I think that attitude comes with bowhunting. I think it is hard to bow hunt without that attitude. I think that those of you that are acting like we are retarded or behind the times for not agreeing with you about wanting to move to points are a little off base. That is one way to argue a point, but not a very effecient one. If i did not see the amount of good deer that i do in as many areas as i do i might be more incline to agree with you. The problem is i do see good deer. 170 plus deer. I see them every year all around the state. I see them in limited quota and general areas. I'm sorry, but if wyoming's managment skills were as bad as you say i would not see what i do every year. The fact of the matter is this. Big deer are hard. They are hard to find and they are hard to hunt. I don't care what tag you have or where it is at. Some of you make it sound like moving to points is going to make it so you have to just choose which of the big deer to shoot out of the lineup in front of you. To be completely honest i hope to never be in that situation. How boring would that be. I believe in the mystical aurora of the mighty king of the mountain. Every year people dream about him the day before open. Every now and then you might catch a glimpse through some thick snow covered pines as he sneaks away. If your really lucky you might actually get a chance to drop your crosshairs on him thanks to your long pursuit up the mountain on the blizzard day when everybody else stayed in bed trying to stay warm. I also beleive in the ability to pursue this dream each year. I may not have been able to put my tag on this deer yet. I have shot some deer that were on their way to joining him. I also beleive that you need to get off your a** and get out of the truck to find him. I see deer every year that i would be more then willing to put on my wall. You can't argue with that. It doesn't make sense to argue with that. That would be like saying " You can get a donut by driving your truck to the donut store down the street, but wouldn't it be better to ride your truck to the next town to get a donut?." I mean come on. If i'm seeing big deer and seeing them in diffent areas..why would i want to change that. Obviously things are working. I would also like to say to the people that are complaining about the deer herds. Don't kid yourself about how far you get off the beaten path. Driving your truck to the mountain counrty and hiking a mile in is not going to get you anywhere.

Disclaimer:
The boss was in town today and i had to take him to the bars this evening. This was written with around a dozen Sam Adams in the gullet, so if everything i wrote doesn't make sense..im sorry. i claim intoxication to anybody i might have upset. Remember kids...don't drink and type
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-09 AT 10:05PM (MST)[p]West says, "I think this thread has gone into the wrong direction."

You're right!

West says, "Don't kid yourself about how far you get off the beaten path. Driving your truck to the mountain counrty and hiking a mile in is not going to get you anywhere."

Thanks for the tip! I finally figured out what I was doing wrong.

West says, "I'm sorry, but if wyoming's managment skills were as bad as you say i would not see what i do every year."

Well hell, if you say so!

West says when speaking of bowhunters, "The guys that i do see tend to be the guys that respect the land as much as i do."

I guess rifle hunters don't respect the land as much as bow hunters. Sure glad a bow hunt some, or I might be classified as someone who don't respect the land.

West says, "Big deer are hard. They are hard to find and they are hard to hunt.'

It's been my experience that seeing big deer during the bow season is a lot easier.

West says, "i claim intoxication to anybody i might have upset. Remember kids...don't drink and type "

Remember kids, when you screw up because you've been drinking, just blame the alcohol.
 
west- we are just sharing our view points, and I appreciate yours, you and buzz are hard core hunters Im sure, but some of us that hunt pretty hard think things could be a lot better as far as the mule deer herds go. The very top of the salt river range is filled with hunters looking for big bucks that the range is famous for, you can't get any farther from roads in that area than the hunters are,no ATVs there and amazing genetics for great bucks, but it just has to much pressure. Go down to the less rugged southern Wyoming range, its great habitat and lots of it, but its hammered with hunters,its true that many of them are road hunters, the average age of bucks is probably 2 years old if your lucky, they say good bucks used to be in a lot of places where they are few and far between these days, some areas are roadless and some aren't, but to deer its still great habitat. Record books are a great tool to study the dynamics of animal populations over time, it doesn't just mean everyone has to have record book animals, you say there are lots of big bucks out there, and no doubt there are some. actually the record book shows the traditional trophy areas to be in steep decline, there are habitat problems for sure, but no place, Idahos wilderness, Colorados backcountry, or anywhere else I know of has ever been able to have healthy age classes of bucks with general over the counter any weapon hunts, at least in this modern area,I think there is just too much information,too much technology and too many people out there. Whats going to be interesting is to see how soon Colorados deer herds recover after last years devastating winter, if they recover while ours continue to decline, that should tell us something about deer management
 
Wow G14 you managed to take a bunch of lines from my post and turn them around on me. Witty. Please teach me. The way you took single lines out of the whole message and added your witty response was amazing. Boy do i feel dumb. How stupid was i not make sure i said something about rifle hunting during my bow comments. Obviously if i didn't i must mean that rifle hunters are horrible people that don't care for the wild. Guess i should have thought about how i've harvested 99% of my game with a rifle before i said that. Could my comment about a mile from the truck been directed to the groups of people that do just that and then talk about how they don't see big deer?? No way i must be way off. I guess you can't find them in any area or state that you hunt( let me just add before i get 1 lined again..I have no issues with people hunting like that, just dont' complain about not seeing big deer from the side of the road. I've hunted that way plenty of times myself). Could my comment about alcohol have been a bit of humor in light of a subject that has turned to name calling and rip downs....guess not. Your post has changed my outlook on life G14 and i now wish to move to preference points. thank you. I think i've played around on this topic enough. You got me doing this crap now. what a joke
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-09 AT 10:56PM (MST)[p]Piper
I completly understand your view point. I also agree that it will be interesting to see the differance in recovery between the states deer herds. What i am saying...and at this point i think we are all just saying the same things back and forth to each other...My opinion on this is totally based on my experiences in the last few years. If other people know different and things are changed in this state..well if i see improvment i will be the first one to say i was wrong. This thread started out with listing possible changes to be made to the managment style of the wyoming Game and Fish. We were asked to support these changes by voicing these changes and G&F meetings. I am just saying that based on "MY" experiences i don't see the need for change dealing with the preference points. I am all for restricted use, atv control etc. I think that most of us on here started out on this thread voicing our "opinions" on the matter. I think we all want what is best to maintain a healthy deer herd. We just disagree on what steps need to be taken
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-20-09 AT 09:56AM (MST)[p]west-
This is my issue with your viewpoint about deer management in Wyoming. Just because you see a few 170" deer, doesn't mean Wyoming G&F are doing a good job. I think you are afraid that if the state goes LQ you're going to miss a whole month of bow hunting, and another month of rifle hunting. You're not looking at what's best for the deer, but you're looking at what's best for you. You assume you're the only one who sees big deer in general areas. You assume the rest of us are lazy, and just need to get off the road. I have harvested several big deer in general areas, on public land, in Wyoming.

The problem I see in general areas I hunt is there's no middle deer, i.e. basket four points. There are very mature deer, and there are two points. The buck to doe ratios are out of line. There's not enough mature deer to do the breeding, so that means there are 2 1/2 doing some breeeding. The 2 1/2 year old might not get the job done on the first cycle, so they have to breed on the 2nd cycle. Which means the doe giving birth late spring/early summer. Good chance the fawn will not make it through a winter. So in five years when that years fawn crop should be doing the breeding there will be less mature deer to do the breeding. On top of that, there are an unlimited number of hunters in the general areas harvesting deer that go unreported, because there's no required reporting.

The things LQ areas give to the G&F is more control. They can control the carrying capacity by setting specific number of deer to be harvested. They can look at winter habitat, and design a plan specifically for those units. They can look at age structure, and tell what age bucks are doing a majority of the breeding. They could require hunters to harvest a doe, before they harvest a buck. That way they could get the buck to doe ratio in line. These things cannot be accomplished as fast or as accurate by managing the areas as general areas. I think the G&F knows this is the best way, but are to lazy to implement it, because they would actually have to work.

In response to your last post directed me, it was probably fair. I probably shouldn't have quoted you, and made sarcastic comments. However, the way your worded your last statement about upsetting people, meant you knew what you were typing.
 
BuzzH-you moved to Wyoming 9 years ago!?No wonder you feel the way you do!You don't really know what it was like before!While I do kill some nice deer in general areas,and the pics you posted are of some very nice deer,if I knew how to post a pic,I would show you what it used to be like 25 short years ago.I would gladly email a pic to someone willing to post it for me.Region G,1985,public land.Also,since when is a buck over 160 a trophy?Not to be bashing someone else's idea of what a trophy is,but that standard used to be much higher.And it wasn't that long ago.(Not saying that is your standard,Buzz-someone else mentioned killing bucks over 160).Trust me-Wyoming could do much better.Not saying things could be like they were 25 years ago;and not saying LQ for the entire state is the answer!Just saying it COULD be much better!
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-24-09 AT 06:45PM (MST)[p]I emailed several people with the game and fish and finally got a reply. Everyone should send an email to the email address below and voice your opinion about how the state should better manage the deer; especially regions G and H.

Here is the email address: [email protected]

Copy and paste my message and place your name at the bottom or make your own message, but please send an email so they will know how we feel!


I have sent the following message:

To whomever it may concern:

Please begin to manage mule deer in regions G and H in the same conservative manner as pronghorn. Limit resident licenses. Set quotas for each unit; no general licenses for residents and no region licenses for non residents. Decrease harvest; fewer buck and doe licenses. Shorten seasons. Please do whatever is necessary to make this area of Wyoming a great place to hunt mule deer once again.

Thank you,

Cody Q. Heinbaugh
cqheinbaugh photography
105 Rd. 1WAW
Deaver, WY 82421
307-941-0684
www.cqheinbaugh.com
[email protected]




www.cqheinbaugh.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-26-09 AT 12:59PM (MST)[p]A couple things that I don't agree with.
1. I love to bow hunt but if i do not kill a deer during archery season I like the fact i can kill him during rifle. The last four deer that i have killed 2 with bow and two with rifle have all been video taped for several hours before they are havested. I will not kill a deer unless I have video/pics of him first. I am a teacher and also coach so it is hard for me to find a lot of timee to hunt, but with archery and rifle it allows me more time. If you want to seperate the two than have a archery season before and after the rifle!!!
2. With the new muzzleloaders you do not need a special season.

3. The other part that makes it hard is if i can a limited area for elk I like to also hunt deer in this area, but if not like to hunt another area. Under the current system the elk and deer would have to be put in for at the same time. This would suck.

Might be good for outfitters(ICMDEER) and guys that can a couple weeks off.
 

Similar threads

liecabucks
Seeking Wyo points partner.
2
Replies
155
Views
7k
TKMulePacker
TKMulePacker
HntHrdr
Last minute meeting to change Co tag allocation
Replies
12
Views
1k
Joe2Kool
Joe2Kool
urge2hunt
Wyoming Guided Bull Elk Hunt - Only $995 !!!!
Replies
0
Views
1k
urge2hunt
urge2hunt

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

elk.jpg
STC_0170 - Copy.JPG
3DF1F8E5-F9D9-45EE-8030-36BC264F1834.jpeg
F3A0C173-DFC7-4A7D-92C5-A04594162AC6.png
2E6B7D07-9FD1-4D95-942C-8429F6C30C6E.jpeg
309615351_6611593642190423_1890332783928267498_n - Copy - Copy - Copy.jpg
IMG_6664.jpeg
Unit 9 2005 060.jpg
20200719_101917.jpg
IMG_0689.jpeg
632ED05F-BF1E-4BDA-9273-AE2ACDBFA34E.jpeg
IMG_4880.png
Back
Top Bottom