Wyoming mule deer management

cqh1

Member
Messages
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LAST EDITED ON Mar-24-09 AT 06:46PM (MST)[p]I emailed several people with the game and fish and finally got a reply. Everyone should send an email to the email address below and voice your opinion about how the state should better manage the deer; especially regions G and H.

Here is the email address: [email protected]

Copy and paste my message and place your name at the bottom or make your own message, but please send an email so they will know how we feel!


I have sent the following message:

To whomever it may concern:

Please begin to manage mule deer in regions G and H in the same conservative manner as pronghorn. Limit resident licenses. Set quotas for each unit; no general licenses for residents and no region licenses for non residents. Decrease harvest; fewer buck and doe licenses. Shorten seasons. Please do whatever is necessary to make this area of Wyoming a great place to hunt mule deer once again.

Thank you,

Cody Q. Heinbaugh
cqheinbaugh photography
105 Rd. 1WAW
Deaver, WY 82421
307-941-0684
www.cqheinbaugh.com
[email protected]
 
I sent a message, but tweaked it a little.

To whomever it may concern:

Please begin to manage mule deer in all regions in the same conservative manner as pronghorn. Limit resident licenses. Set quotas for each unit; no general licenses for residents and no region licenses for non residents. Decrease harvest; fewer buck and doe licenses. Shorten seasons. Please do whatever is necessary to make all areas of Wyoming a great place to hunt mule deer once again.
 
i personally like the content of your letter. The last time i was up top in "H", i knew then, it was going to be my last time. I'm just too big and not near the shape i was as a younger hunter. Still, there were way lots of people even though we were 4-5 hours by horseback back in. It's a wonderful place. Would be nice to see it still be a great place to hunt big muley bucks even if i'm hunting down lower someplace. Good luck with it!

Joey
 
CQ,
Have you read ICMDeer's Wyoming Mule Deer management post ? I think Jim has some excellent ideas too. While some may not agree, I think we all agree that changes are in order. Excellent idea to provide your input to Wyo. Game and Fish. Chip
 
Yeah, ICMDEER's post and NVMULEDEER1's post about this topic motivated me to find who to email in the game and fish. I also replied in those posts and added a topic in the Wyoming forum. We need everyone who is interested to send a letter or email. Now is the time for us to stop complaining and to try to do something; no matter if you agree with my ideas or have different ideas.

Cody


www.cqheinbaugh.com
 
Thanks, guys. As I stated previously, we may not agree on the details, but we should all take the time to express our concerns and let G&F know our thoughts. I'll send an email to the listed address. I just sent a couple to the local biologist and hope to get to another meeting tonight.

Good work, gentlemen.
 
So you send out your email to every address you can find, finally get somebody to respond to you, and then post up their email address on the internet and request people to slam them with email. I'm guessing she'll learn really quickly not to respond to emails from hunters.

Those folks are busy people. You can't expect to get a reply every time you send in comments.
 
sent mine, terrible in reg W last year with what I think was a 60%- 70% winter kill from bad winter & utah seeding the clouds.
 
I don't expect a reply. I expect them to read the email and get an idea of what hunters are thinking. By not sending an email will surely result in nothing. Sending an email may result in something.

Cody


www.cqheinbaugh.com
 
Great start! But don't just copy and paste, It makes a bigger impact if you personalize your Emails
 
I understand that you all think that there should be changes to wyomings deer hunting, expecaly in G or H. Here is some info for you even in areas that are limited quota deer numbers continue to fall. but lets make wyoming like utah so hunting can be elimenated from the everyday hunter so everyone can draw one good tag in their life NOT!!!
If you look at the tag alotments for each area region G has 800 NR tags and H has 1200 NR tags. So that makes 2000 NR hunters primarly from utah land of great hunting one year in your life, required to hunt only G or H depending on the tag. Then you have the resedents who hunt this area who primarly live or work in the region who when it comes to hunting probalbly out numbered three to one of NR to res hunters in the area hunting. with probable only 1/3 of the residents going to the back country hunting for a trophy while the other 2/3 are hunting for meat only. Yeah they may shoot only a young buck maby a spike or two point but thats a good hunt for them.

If all of the states managed there deer and elk like your beloved utah, hunters would become nonexistant exept for the rich. which would then make it more likely for the goverment to see no use for firearms and will start by licencing them, Fallowed by the removal of gun ownership.

With the nation wide decline in mule deer regardless of general hunting or limited hunting the quality may go up some but the quanity will either continue to fall or stay the same. If we practice nothing but trophy hunting more kids will become dissapointed at an earlier age and will give up hunting all together.
I could see cutting tag alotment for these area but not for res but the non res who is requied to hunt just the one reagion. if the nonres tags where cut by a 1/3 you would see the quality of deer rise due to less trophy hunters in the reigion. I'm not saying that res are not trophy hunters but per capita of rtes hunters with a general tag maby 1/5 are die hard trophy hunters. the rest put in for limited draw areas and those who dont draw hunt close to home. just my thoughts on this subject.

Moseley Middleton

P.S please forgive my spelling and grammer. My wife changed the internet to msn and i can not find spell check
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-26-09 AT 03:52AM (MST)[p]Message sent:

Dear Wyoming Game and Fish...please slighly alter the Wyoming region G&H regulations. Eliminate the classic deer camp. Don't allow my family to pursue deer in the same "secret spot" year after year. Don't allow residents to chase bucks in the best high country in Wyoming. Please continue to hamstring yourselves with the wolf issue while Montana and Idaho get something done...simply cut down the number of tags available. Make me choose between the archery or rifle hunt each year because I am allowed WAY too much time to enjoy God's country. After 200" bucks show up on every ridge, maybe you could make some extra cash by auctioning off a tag that would have gone to my son. It would have been great to hunt with him but, his video games will console him. It doesn't matter really, as long as I get the cover shot to Muley Crazy.

P.S Could you please make it snow less so more deer will survive the winter?
 
Mossly Im just going to pretend I didnt read that selfish resident post that had nothing to do with proper deer management.
 
It wouldn't bother me if Wyo broke the Region idea into appling for an actual unit that was with in a Region...say Region G for non-ressy draw would be 100 Region wide tags and then the other 700 would be broken into the 4 G deer units or is it 5 G deer units? anyways....I think this would allow for more mnagement of tags issued on the non-ressy side of the hunt opportunity....

I really am uncomfortable telling any resident of any state I draw and hunt what 'they should be restricted' when it comes to tag allocations.

Robb
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-26-09 AT 07:31AM (MST)[p]chewyman55
Email sent to G&F. Hope you don't mind if i used your post as a template.
 
Your family can pursue deer year after year. With fewer tags, a family of 6 will maybe draw 4 tags instead of 6. If you truly enjoy that part of the state, you will gladly help a family member hunt without hunting yourself; I would and have done so.
Once Wyoming gets to manage wolves without caving into the feds, they will be years ahead of ID and MT. Meanwhile, every problem wolf is being killed by the state just the same as in ID and MT.
No one has advocated archery only or rifle only hunts or auction tags (which already exist along with many raffle tags).


Cody



www.cqheinbaugh.com
 
Im not uncomfortable at all telling somone they need to restrict tags or go limited quota when thats what needs to be done. The DOW did it here in Colorado before we got quality deer hunting back too. I still have a great deer hunt every year too. Seems to be some selfish people who would rather hunt every year than have a quality hunt for future generations to come. When that mentality leaves some folks, Wyoming will have a chance to be what it once was again.
 
I appreciate your viewpoint on the matter. I like that you care enough to do something about it also. I do truly love that area of the state, which is why I posted. My post was merely satire to make my view known. To think that the tradition of G&H would ever be altered to the extent of limiting resident tags...well, this isn't Utah or Colorado. Wyoming manages for opportunity plain and simple. People don't see as many big bucks as they would like and they cry injustice. ANYONE who hunted that area last year was frustrated with the lack of bucks around...a result of our brutal winter last year. You think Wyoming is going to solve the wolf problem without "caving" to the feds like Idaho and Montana? Don't worry. The ONLY group this state caves to is the Cattle industry. They won't be years ahead of anything...just par with their neighbors.

I do not see how wanting more people to get a crack at hunting that area is selfish? Do you honestly think that the state is going to run the regions into the ground so future generations can't hunt it? That's one of their money makers. I counted 38 of 42 tags at a trailhead as out of state last year. I know who pays the bulk of the bills....THEY do. I don't like seeing all those red arch license plates but they pay the piper. I am not going to "selfishly" ask for a redux in those tags just because I don't like it. No, YOUR plan doesn't call for choosing a weapon and YOUR plan will give a family of six up to four tags a year. Wyoming wouldn't use YOUR plan. Who knows what path they would theoretically take? You want it managed like Pronghorn well guess what...a family of six is NOT going to snag 4 pronghorn tags per year.

Let's concede some things then...shorter seasons would probably help. Cut down on ANY sex deer seasons in the region. Write the G&F and beg them to get a plan the feds can approve to start killing wolves. I want the area healthy too but I tend to trust paid Wildlife Biologists that want to protect their "investment" more than I do the rest of us.
 
You think there was a lack of bucks just last year huh ? Now thats some funny stuff right there, been a lack of bucks for a long time and especially quality bucks.
As far as being selfish for wanting to get a crack at that area ? No, thats not it at all...lol The selfishness comes into play when people think they have to hunt a top quality trophy area every year just to kill a buck rather than manage the deer area properly and go kill your meat buck elsewhere in the state. Limited tags wouldnt keep you from hunting or filling the freezer it would just take some pressure off a fantastic area so it could be what it once was.
As far as your pronghorn comment, why cant a family of 6 get 4 tags every year ? Theres leftover tags every year all over the place, so thats bs !!
Wolves you mentioned too, areas G and H were going way down hill before they brought in wolves so it kinda blows that theory all to pieces eh ?
Wyoming wont use a limited plan you say ? They better do something soon and my guess is they will.
 
Elkcrzy1

Yes, last year was a down year but, my brother was able to kill the biggest buck of his life and loved every minute of it. I wouldn't trade that experience for the world. Forgive me for not living long enough to have known how the region was in the 70?s. We aren't backpacking 5 miles to shoot ?meat bucks? so don't worry about me chipping away at the does. Yes, I practice trophy hunting?in my mind. If one of my 160? bucks doesn't stack up to your idea of a trophy than I apologize. I hate to be ruining it for everyone else. Surely I am not ruining it for you though because you have the decency to hunt elsewhere.

That really is selfish when hunters have the audacity to kill sub-monster deer. I had always thought it was about the experience of being in the gorgeous mountains with family and friends?tags in hand. Next time I see a kid with a 2 point, I will be sure to report him. I was never much for the sagebrush and liked the time above timberline. Again I was selfish?I should have just hunted elsewhere.

I know it's down from years past. I am reminded of it every year by doomsday hunters. Yes, wolves, winter, and hunters impact deer numbers. I don't see how the fact that G&H were declining BEFORE wolves showed up blows that theory? It is our fault it's on the decline so let's first keep hunters out of the field and THEN we might worry about the wolves? I am going to write Jack Frost and Old Man Winter for killing the deer off in 92?. Never did like those guys.

As for Pronghorn hunting?I was selfish enough to be referring to Buck tags?near home. I shouldn't be hunting those good spots every year. It really is selfish of me. 53% draw odds will crank out a tag to 4 of 6 applications every year!

Who?s going to pay for the lost revenue from this dream plan? That will be a mighty big hit for the agency to take. Hmmm?I smell auction hunts! Or maybe you have a bake sale planned that wasn?t included in the DETAILED plan to the Game and Fish office?
 
Not to sound or come across as being disrespectfull to anyone...but I strongly feel that alot of us......put our input on the table as we have become conditoned to basically be a 'one tag wonder' for when and if we finaly draw as a non-ressy...

I think that can and does seprerate game management theory vs I wanna draw and get a dandy harvest for my wall....as the cost just seems to increase every year WE do not draw as non-ressy..

Some times when you look at funds dispersed vs actual harvest representation......'chewyman55'.....it will provoke a demand more so than a request.

Robb
 
Chewy your missing the point here k ? Follow me and try to keep up. Regions G and H are overhunted, intense pressure, killing too many deer over too many years. Serious decline in deer numbers and bucks too. This has nothing to do with shooting immature bucks by anyone it has to do with shooting too many deer period. I think you may want to ask some questions to some people who have hunted these regions for longer than I believe you've probably been alive. Ask some of the old time outfitters in this region or ICMDEER seems very knowing on the subject amongst many others. Forget the "trophy" word because that seems to throw you way off track. Ask around how many years the deer numbers have been declining and what they think the solution should be. There is a problem, thats already been established by most everyone now whats the cure ?
 
Regaurdless of the area or region, Mule deer in general have been on the decline. What i am saying is that yes there are too many deer being harvested in all areas in the state. but as for those regions there is alot less resident hunters than non i would garenty that point being that the state may sell 70,000 general tags state wide if that. But there is no way that there is 2000 residents that hunt region g and h. but i will garanty that there is 2000 non residents that hunt the regions. thew reason that i say the mojority of non res that hunt the area are from utah is that it is the closest region of the state that consistantly produces big deer and if your going to pay the out of state price for deer, your going to want to hunt what is conciderd a trophy region. that is why all tags for this area sells out unlike regions A or D.

The way i see it, if your going to change the management cut the tags of people limited to the specific area, than tags that are for the majority of the state. The reason i have hunted general for all of my life is that i can hunt around casper to kaycee and chugwater from september to the end of october, then go to the black hills and kill one of the million white tail up there to fill my tag so that the muleys can grow to be larger.

I have passed on several 140's -160's to let them grow during the archery season just to have them be the first ones shot on the opener of the rifle season. I have seen it where you could see 20-30 deer a day to being luckey to see 15 deer a season.



Moseley MIddleton
 
Didn't see this post until after I placed my post in the general section.

If interested, look at my post and provide some feedback.

BW
 
Elkcrzy1

You told me:

"The selfishness comes into play when people think they have to hunt a top quality trophy area every year just to kill a buck rather than manage the deer area properly and go kill your meat buck elsewhere in the state."

Then the next post:

"This has nothing to do with shooting immature bucks by anyone it has to do with shooting too many deer period."

Are you following your OWN logic? Because I am more than able to keep up with you. Great...the old timers saw a big a$$ buck around every tree. I'll call one up and hear how it's all gone to hell. You are calling residents selfish for killing deer LEGALLY and ethically. You cry that wolves are an issue...then say that it's not them and really it all started before them. Clearly other states are choking off hunting opportunities here a little-there a little and everyone is clammoring for a piece of the pie. If your money isn't well served by a nice buck then go somewhere else. Not everyone thinks we need the keystone cops to save the day around here. Why are you asking ME for the cure? I am not the one ripping off ridiculous "form letters" that the nearest sense of direction is "kinda like the antelope plan." Nice idea.
 
Hey Chewy, I never said wolves were an issue. I changed my response to you so that you wouldnt be thrown off by the whole trophy thing because that seems to send you into a different state of mind...lol So I gave you a little something easier to follow there the second response and it didnt seem to help either.
Im going to go state my opinions with someone who has a little more education ok ? lol Take care
 
I'd back pedal too if I were you. Look up Doc Brown when you get a minute. He's got a flux capacitor you might be interested in. Good luck in the past.
 
No back pedaling here Chewy I just got more involved having a better conversation with this fence post, thats all.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-27-09 AT 08:10PM (MST)[p]There are a lot of comments about herd size and draw odds the that are strickly based on personal desires. I have my desires too. Here is some data for you from WG&F web pages.

Herd counts & objectives for South of Rock Springs (limited quota area)
- 2002 through 2008 herd objectives = just under 12,000 mule deer
Counts
- 2002 herd size ~ 7,000
- 2003 herd size ~ 5,000
- 2004 herd size ~ 7,000
- 2005 herd size ~ 7,500
- 2006 herd size ~ 7,500
- 2007 herd size ~ 7,000
- 2008 herd size ~ 7,500 (predicted)

Herd counts & objectives for the Wyoming Range Herd (Res. General Licenses)
- 2002 through 2008 herd objective = 50,000 mule deer
Counts
- 2002 herd size ~ 31,000
- 2003 herd size ~ 31,000
- 2004 herd size ~ 28,000
- 2005 herd size ~ 28,000
- 2006 herd size ~ 28,000
- 2007 herd size ~ 37,000
- 2008 herd size ~ 31,000 (predicted)

So my question to the group is what is you opinion based on? I don't see much difference between issuing general tags and limited quoto on impact to herd size. There are a lot of comments about the deer herd size being in the tank last year. Personal observations, and talking to other hunters in the areas last year their thoughts where the numbers were up.

My conclusion is the ones pushing the limited quota are the ones with selfish opinions. I also think Chewy makes a great point and the data supports. . . herd size is driven by factors far more complicated than just hunting pressure.
 
I don't know if you noticed,but the objectives are WAY below the present population.That is exactly the problem.Thank you for putting those numbers on here for everyone to see.
 
So your saying that 38 out of 42 vehicles where out of staters. thats 87% non res hunters in the areas of the region you hunted. So you think that by reduceing residents your going to limit the amount of bucks harvested. wrong!!! It may cut funding but if your going to see an increase it will be by cutting the 2000 non res tags. I'm sorry you dont like hearing that but that is whats going to need to happen. By turning the area into limited quota you will have the same meat hunters appling for the area due to it being close to home. Also you must think of how much revenue that your concerned about footing the bill by non res hunters is lost when doing this becouse the state only alots 10% of the tags to non res hunters. so they make the region non res give out a total of say 5000 tags between all the area region wide. that would cut revenue that your worried about to 500 non res tags from 2000. 1/4 of the people. here is the kicker you still have 4500 posable meat hunters in the area. what now still no better trophy area exept for the to far to walk back country. where quality may rise. unless after four or five years the region gets back to more back country giants, then you will have every trophy hunting res putting in and drawing hurting your quality animals.


here is the new issue, i dont have a set of regs handy but here is the problem in your eyes. when they separate the tags between areas through out the region such as along the greys and little greys as one area. there may only be 300 tags for this area so only 30 non res tags making the draw next to nothing. so then your beloved region will be like most of utah with a one time in your life draw. for ech of the better areas.


Now do you see what i am talking about. if not pm me and i will debate this with you over the phone. becouse i know my writing is hard to understand due to poor spelling.

Moseley Middleton
 
Nontypical,

I did notice that the herd size is much lower than the objective. What is interesting is that the "South of Rock Springs" herd is showing a similar variance in population from year to year as the "Wyoming Range" herd. What that is showing is that even with a limited quota season, the objective still hasn't been achieved in at least the last six years. It really makes me question if all the hype around limited quota statewide has any merit.

The reports on the web are 100+ pages each and have a lot more detail in it. I think a person could dive into the data and make it tell what ever story they wanted. I think people need to let the G&F know what hunt experience they want and then let the experts in that field develop a management plan from there. The general public is always smartest about stuff they know nothing about.
 
Thanks for some sanity on the situation. If a non res to wyo had one thing to fight...I'd think it would be the Wilderness/Guide law. A total joke driven by the Guiding Industry. It's interesting because we all know because of the law...Natl Forest is pressured more than Wilderness...in Wyoming, Wilderness basically IS a limited quota area and yet...guess what guys? There aren't the deer you remember in the GLORY DAYS there either!

Locking an area up as a limited quota is not the magic bullet. What it WILL do is deprive nore residents/ non residents from a place we obviously hold dear to our hearts.
 
This whole deal is very complicated. First, let me say that as an outfitter for 20+ years, I have always been opposed to the law that requires nonresidents to have a guide in a wilderness area. It's dumb and a bad law - plain and simple. And yes, I'm licensed to guide/outfit in 4 wilderness areas. Don't do it often, but I have the permits. And the reason we don't take hunters there? The hunt quality is substandard. It needs better management. :)

I like the stats that show the deer herds are way below objective. Not sure the figures are exactly right, but they do show we are WAY UNDER OBJECTIVE. We need to "lay off"" those deer and do some other things to get the deer numbers back up. I'd advocate hammering more elk and predators for a start. We could increase lion mortality quotas and possibly extend lion seasons. Or maybe do something to encourage coyote hunting.

I've been in those areas near Rock Springs where there are limited quota licenses. IMO they are also way oversubscribed and poorly managed. There just are not enough deer there for the number of licenses G&F sells. Those are good examples to NOT use as the prototype for limited quota hunting.

The money deal always crops up. That's BS; pure and simple. Wyoming could make MORE MONEY if they would emphasize quality than if they just turned everyone loose. EVERY resident that wants a license would still have one. It might not be statewide, but you would have a good license every year. And if we had preference points, G&F could make MORE MONEY. We have just over 500,000 people in Wyoming. Colorado has 4.66+ million residents. Residents of Colorado still have good hunts every year and a great opportunity every 2-4 years. And those folks are WAY HAPPIER with the deer than they were a decade ago when there was almost no management. Management has increased customer (hunter) satisfaction, they are still making money and most importantly, THE WILDLIFE RESOURCE IS BETTER. It has even increased support for and respect for the Colorado DOW.

I'd also be glad to pay more for a higher quality hunt. (In license fees.) Hunting is the #1 reason I live in Wyoming. A few dollars more per year would darn sure be worth it. Even here in eastern Wyoming, deer numbers are down. And that includes some big private ranches with very limited hunting. It's a combination of drought, predators, maybe CWD, and elk, plus whitetail influx. But with management, we can address some of those issues.

Also, there are already places in Wyoming where you can shoot 2 buck deer and 2 buck antelope per year. Why not provide opportunities for those places and limit the pressure on others? It's just managemnt. If/when we have 4 million residents, will all of you still resist change? Seems like this is a good time to start making positive change.

Finally, don't belive everything you read on the internet. (Surprise!) I've seen some of those G&F figures and they are "pie in the sky." No way we have as many deer as are reported in some of that census data. Many times, I simply see those numbers as JUSTIFICATION FOR NOT REDUCING LICENSES OR SHORTENING SEASONS.

I've got friends in G&F and most of them recognize the need for a change to enhance quality and management for mule deer. But there's HUGE RESISTENCE TO CHANGE both inside G&F and from the public. So please don't say that all professionals support the current system. Also, I personally manage over 100,000 acres. I work with the public. We have some land enrolled in walk-in areas. We take people elk hunting for free to kill cows. We help people with antelope hunts. But I darned sure protect the mule deer. They are truly the "barometer" for big game ungulates in Wyoming. And besides that, they are my favorite. And yes, I have seen them decline, but not where I have legitimate influence. And yes, I have spent thousands of dollars helping them, enhancing habitat, protecting them; paying money to not hunt them. And I'll keep doing it. It's a high priority for me.

Also, just FYI, I am what I consider a small-time outfitter. I have a full-time job, run cattle, put up hay and work darned hard to live in Wyoming. But if I never take another hunter, my family will still eat and we'll be OK. I do not outfit as my sole source of income. I do it because I love the wildlife and it provides us a year-round opportunity to visit some special places. We try to make money, but it does not always happen. It's a risky business.

I'd much rather see lots of mule deer and see trophy bucks than have chance to go hammer one in a crowded situation every year. This issue is as much or more about population numbers than it is trophy bucks. I take quite a few pictures of deer. And I spend a lot of time trying to kill coyotes. I only wish other people would be willing to appreciate that part of the mule deer's environment and be wiling to "lay off" them for while to let them recover to those objectives. Management is the way to accomplish that. What a dilemma we have. Too bad. We never agree and most folks are completely unwilling to give up anything until it is way too late.
 
What is the most important aspect of hunting?Is it being able to kill a deer every year?Seeing lots of game?Or just the experience of being out with friends and family;maybe watching a son or good friend kill a nice buck?Different things to different folks.I understand that the deer of the old days are probably gone forever.We as hunters are too well equipped nowdays with our long range shooting systems,4-wheelers,etc.Things are way different now than they were 20-25 years ago.Why shouldn't deer management change then,too?I'm not advocating for state-wide LQ units,but maybe that needs to be looked at.Why do we need to kill a deer every year to enjoy a hunt?If your idea of a trophy is different than mine,that's great!But why can't we manage for an older age class of deer?Wouldn't that make everyone happier?If you are happy with a 24" 160 buck,that absolutely should be up to you.If you like fork horns for good eating-great!But with just a few minute changes,we could be growing more older age class bucks,and it would only take 2-3 years of small sacrifice.There will always be the forkhorns and 2-yr old 24"ers.We need more deer in this state.We are below objective levels.G&F can't control Mother Nature,but they can control hunters.IMO,the days of business as usual are over.G&F needs to stop being a re-active dept,and start being pro-active.Times have changed.Wyoming deer management needs some changing,too.
 
Cliff,

You have been a thoughtful and positive influence on MM since I can remember. Thanks for your good thoughts and for your passion about Wyoming's mule deer. Keep up the good work.
 
I may be way off base here, but I feel the easiest answer lies with limiting access. The problem I have seen, as a non-resident, is most compounded by increased access through use of ATV and mortorcyles. I can show you dozens of ATV trails into the back country which were not there just 10 short years ago. The Forest Service closes many trails for the elk hunt in Oct. Shut down those same trails on Sept 10 and you will save deer.

Another point is simply bucks do not give birth to fawns. Wyoming winter range herds are some of the best in the country. High buck to doe ratios, so the doe population is bred better than most other states'. If you are not seeing increases in population then you are killing too many doe OR your range can not support the more deer. Simply restricting buck hunters will not grow your herd's productivity, but it will increase buck numbers, which will compete with doe numbers for the available forage.

-------------------------
www.sagebasin.com
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LAST EDITED ON Mar-31-09 AT 06:53PM (MST)[p] how can a non resident come here and say the herds shot out?
i have lived in and hunted in Wyoming pushing 40 yrs.
you know what while I've killed lots of good bucks i have never had a chance at a 200" buck like you guys think should be under every tree.
you guys come in for 10 days a year and think you know every deer on that mountain.
you ever thought maybe you just were not the lucky 1 out of 1000 hunters to get a crack at a huge buck.
I'm a resident and i watch the deer every year in my hunting spot i pass on younger bucks i could have killed with my bow only to have the buck be the first thing to fall on opening day to some utah hunter in the first 5 minutes of day light.
then the utah oilfield workers shooting them off winter range just because they have a chance.
no i don't want out of state hunters to have a bad name but they bring it on them self.
when Moseley was 4 or 5 i took him out antelope hunting when we had a Coloradan hunter start unloading at a 8" antelope over the top on my truck with my son and i in it.
he was shooting a 223 AR-15
i had Moseley get on the floor and i bipoded up and yelled if he fired again he would loose his windshield. any follow up would be fatal.
he came over to us later and said he didn't know if i saw the antelope they were 75 yards out the window of the truck heck ya i saw them.
i took his licence plate and turned him in.
the G&F saw he was hunting with a illegal caliber and led him away in hand cuffs.
deer populations naturally rise and fall so does antler quality its not someone who lives here or someone who comes in from elsewhere who should make the call it needs to be left to experts who study numbers all year not just 10 days a year.
sometimes we all ask to regulate ourselves out of existence.
if you think the hunting stinks in a area GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.
 
Yep that will fix it go someplace else !! lol Did you not read the previous posts ? We're talking about guys here who have hunted and guided in your fine state for a long time, people who know what they are talking about, not a bunch of non residents who dont have a clue. Residents who actually care and want to do something positive for deer management rather than worry about themselves and getting to hunt every year.
You "bipoded up" and threatened shooting someone ? Your a little scary middleton. Your mentality is very bad for hunters in general and the great state of Wyoming.
 
Packout-I wholeheartedly agree with your comment about road access.It is absolutely ridiculous.That was discussed at the meeting in Green River Tuesday night.We need to work with BLM and try to get some road closure in some of these areas.At the very least,I would like to see seasonal closures.Wyo G&F have been in discussion with BLM,and if they(BLM) heard from us(HUNTERS-YES,I'M YELLING),this could very well happen.Before you road hunters start crucifying me,listen up!We DO NOT need a road down every ridge top!Or up the bottom of every canyon!To me,this is probably the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR in why we don't have mature bucks in many general areas.For instance,30 years ago,I used to hunt an area in SW Wyo that always held good numbers of bucks,with many mature bucks in the herd.Over the last 30 years,I have seen a gradual decline in the numbers of bucks(especially mature bucks)in this area.So much so,that I scout usually only 1-2 days,and rarely hunt there.30 yrs ago,there were less than half as many roads.Where did the roads come from,you ask?They came from some guy that didn't want to walk down that ridge or up that canyon,so they drove through the sagebrush.Then they drove back out,following the same tracks they made going in.Before season was over,another guy saw the tracks,so they figured hmmmm...someone else went there,so it must be okay for me to go there,too!Wa-La!ROAD!That's all it takes to make a road,and as long as no one gets punished for this type of activity,it just keeps getting worse.Bucks no longer have the SANCTUARY they need to grow older.No matter how great the genetics or nutrition,if a buck can't live to be at least 3-4 or older,you will NEVER see trophy antlers in that herd(notwitholding the rare extreme case).ALL of the roads in this area in the last 30 years were made by lazy hunters.What really bugs me is those same lazy hunters could still be killing bucks from the roads that were there before!!I and some of my cohorts will begin contacting local BLM officials to get all of these illegal roads closed,at least during hunting seasons.I'm 58 years old,and if I can hike the hills,anyone younger than me without physical handicap should be able to!!By the way,Jim(ICMDEER),G&F is making a few minor changes in this neck of the woods.I don't know if it will help,but I'm somewhat encouraged that they are at least trying something different!We have a new biologist here now.Unfortunately for you,I think our old one is in your district now!!
 
and that was exactly the intent, elk.
when you start hearing pop bang you ARE under fire.
direct line of fire over the top of my truck hitting 75yards out my window by a hunter 350 yrds away.
i did the right thing and would do it again if fired upon.
 
Cliff,

We've still got the same biologist. He's a good guy and cares about the resource. I'm glad to see that you guys are trying and they are responding. and I agree wholeheartedly about the roads. I quit hunting BLM because people drive EVERYWHERE. Our USFS lands around here are strict, no driving more than 300 feet off of a road, so it is much better. But the USFS could also stand to close a lot of roads. Good comment PACKOUT.
 

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