Permit numbers on the Henries

A

adamsoa

Active Member
Messages
704
LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-09 AT 01:01PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-09 AT 01:00?PM (MST)

I read the DWR news page and it said that they decreased the permuim limited entry permits by about 20. Does anyone have a link to the actual permit numbers by area that they approved?

I looked at the proposed drafts that they put out. Last year there were 191 permits for premium limited entry. According to the draft there woud have been a 3 permit total difference (res and non res) down to 188. This does not include the management permits. However the news release says that they approved 173 permits. Thats almost 20 less tags. WTH????? Did they reduce the tags by even more?

Thanks

Andy
 
I believe the Board reduced some of the Pauns tags, but I could be wrong.

On a side note, just so people can know what is going on, Henry Mtns permits were reduced by 3 or 4 permits because the unit is not meeting its age objectives. The management plan calls for 50-60% of bucks harvested be 5 years old or older. The average buck harvested is in the 4 year old range and only about 30-40% of bucks harvested are over 5 years old. So until the unit meets its objectives we will continue to see decreases in permit numbers. The unit has a base number of 10 permits so there will always be at least 10 permits or they will have to close the unit.

By the way, this age objective for the Henry Mtns was not supported by the UDWR, nor was it supported by many on the Mule Deer Committee, but it was put in place by a group attempting to protect quality. Now we have an unrealistic objective and no matter what happens with herd growth, we will see decreases in the permit numbers unless hunters stop shooting those 190" 4 year old bucks and wait until they are 5 or 6 years old. Yeah right......

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www.sagebasin.com
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LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-09 AT 05:01PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-09 AT 04:56?PM (MST)

Who is the group that wants the unit managed for the higher age class?


Also there will always be someone that shoots the 4 yr old 190 or 3 1/2 yr old 180. I have a guy I used to work with that shot a 3 pt bull on the Monroe. He was happy with it.
With such a small number of tags only one or two guys have to take something less than a 5-6 yr old to will completely throw the average out. If they take it all the way down to 10 tags and the effect of even one large 4 yr old would hit the average. How is it possible for them to say that they are managing for 5 yr old bucks anyway? Some will be huge later on and some wont.

Has the wildlife board finally lost it and decided to screw up the limited entry even more???? We all deserve a 300 in buck behind every tree and we will limit all hunting activity until we can guarantee a 300 in buck for every person who draws. After all how are we supposed to be able to make any money if the bucks are any smaller than that and the gov tag holder actually has to compete with some soddin draw hunter.

As a side note what the heck is wrong with a 190 4 yr old. I have 9 points and have been waiting for an archery tag. This will make it take a heck of a lot longer to draw one but even then if I can get close enough to a 4 yr old 190 buck I'd take him in a heart beat.
 
It looks like 10 trophy bucks and 10 management bucks on the Henries this year. The 10 management bucks from the Henries this year will probably average older than 5-6 years old! Maybe that will help the overall average.
 
Yeah, just think if Del Brady had passed his 236" gross, 226" net pending SCI world record typical because it was only 4 years old? Crazy!
 
That deer was only 4 I hadnt heard that. Thats insanie. Could you imagine if he would have went to 6 years old with good wheather. WOW



Jake H. MM Member since 1999.
458738e374dfcb10.jpg
 
as long as they send me one we are good to go. Now if they don't send one It sucks.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
I'm not sure who the group is that packout is talking about. I went to the SE RAC last November when this was discussed and I don't remember any such group.

Do they use averages or is it based on each individual buck?
What I mean is, let's say there are 20 tags. If 11 of the bucks are 5 years old or older (some could be 6, some could be 7, etc) and 9 of the bucks are 4 years old or less, that would mean that 55% are 5 or older. I don't think they say a 7 year old and a 3 year old make two 5 year olds.
I think each harvested buck is age-tested so they get an actual percentage rather than averages, but I have no idea. (I know I had to send teeth in)

I don't think there is anything wrong with having one LE area in the state that we manage for trophy bucks. The Henry Mtns. is arguably the premier mule deer unit in the COUNTRY. Why would you want to screw THAT up?

If you are looking for opportunity, try the Paunsagunt or the Book Cliffs or even a Henry management tag.
I feel your pain, adamsoa. The same thing is happening on the bighorn sheep unit I've been applying for. Tags have gone from 8 down to 3. I think I would only have to live to be 120 to draw this.
i drew the Henry muzzle tag in 2007 with 11 points, so you may get lucky with 9. let us know how you do in the draw. i'd be happy to share my limited knowledge of the unit.
 
Its not about drawing this year. I'm just wondering if the unit had tanked and I hadnt heard about it. Because they are killing some monsters on that unit that are only 4 years old. I have heard several times that the DWR thought it wasnt the greatest idea to try to manage for that age class. And even if there are bigger bucks on the unit guys are still going to kill 190 class 4 yr olds. Which will skew the results and keep the numbers even lower. I just thought that was a crappy way to manage the herd.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-09 AT 10:34AM (MST)[p]I try not to get into the finger pointing on the web, so I won't name people or organizations. I just wanted people to wake up and look at the current situation. The Henry Mtns is one of the top mule deer units in the country. Yet, acheiving that status has been with bucks that average 4 something years old. The previous objective was 5 year old bucks, but the new objective is even higher at 50-60% of bucks being 5 or older. It has rarely met the 5 year old objective. The biologists must recommend permit reductions if the unit is not reaching its objectives. The objective takes the average number of deer 5 years or older over a 3 year period. That keeps large fluctuations in check. I believe it has never averaged out at 5 years for 3 years in a row, let alone having 50-60% of the bucks be 5 or older.

I agree that it can be ok to manage a certain area for extreme quality. We are talking about a herd of around 1,500-2,000 deer. The irony though is the unit will loose tags, even though it is the "best unit". People must stop shooting the 200 inch 4 year olds or we will continue to see permit decreases. And yes, there is sarcasm in that last sentence.

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www.sagebasin.com
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You guys are awesome, we have worldclass deer on the Henries and you want to destroy that, they are managing it perfectly look at the deer. Its just like utah elk to many of you complain that there is no oportunity so lets give out unbelievable amounts of elk tags so we can destroy quality so you can have your 300 inch bull, if you dont like the odds or wait then put in somewhere else...
 
Cantkillathing- I know that I am not lobbying to destroy the Henry's quality. Here are a couple questions to think about:
Was the Henry Mtns destroyed last year with 30 permits?
Should the unit's tag numbers be cut back to 10, because guys are shooting 190+ inch 4 year olds?

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www.sagebasin.com
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Please explain how maintaining it just as it is now is going to ruin it????? Have you even read any of the other posts? We are saying that it is the best out there and that things are working great as it is. They are killing huge deer. But there is a plan out to reduce the tag numbers to try to increase the age class. As pfointed out earlier it has never reached that age class and it never will. There is no way you will stop people from shooting 200 in 4 yr old deer, which according to the plan will keep the tag numbers artificially low.
Once again if you had read any of the previous posts we arent asking for increased permits we are wondering why they are decreasing them for a debatably unreasonable age class. Comparing this to the increase in elk tags is ASININE!!! Its not about an increase its about leaving it the way it is.

The unit is awesome as it is now why mess with it???
 
Because if you continue to give to many tags then your going to turn it into book cliffs, pauns, lets say they give the same amount of tags how many years can they support shooting 190+ deer before it turns back to a 160+ hunt, to many tags were given last year, and i bet we will see the results this next year, lets see how many 190+ deer come off the unit for 2009
Any bets that the quality will be down this year!!!
 
>to many tags were given
>last year, and i bet
>we will see the results
>this next year, lets see
>how many 190+ deer come
>off the unit for 2009


Please explain to us how you would determine the correct number of tags to issue, and please tell us how you came to the conclusion that too many tags were issued last year. Thank you.
 
What I don't understand is why they only took permits away from the archery and muzzleloader hunts?

I was on the mountain for the archery hunt last season and I am pretty certain that the archers probably met the age objective. They certainly killed world class deer even if they didn't happen to be five year olds. Of the seven archery tags I believe that two tags went unfilled. Of the five that where filed I know three of those bucks grossed over 200.

At least keep it fair and cut the tags across the board. They efectively reduced resident archery and muzzleloader tags by 25% and left the rifle tag numbers the same.

Why penalize these two small groups and not the biggest group.
 
Cantkillathing,
I'm just trying to figure out your logic on this subject. I've been following the Henries for a few years and have noticed a few things. The population has been fairly stable at around 1500-2000 deer or so. It has the highest buck to doe ratio in the state--seems like its around 55-60 bucks to 100 does. The permit numbers have remained pretty constant maybe a couple one way or the other. No big changes. Yet they have some of the best bucks taken anywhere. There has been no crash but the quality seems to keep improving. Even taking a lot of huge 4 year old bucks hasn't hurt the unit as a whole. In fact this year they are having a management hunt because there are too many bucks.
Now lets say that there are 1500 deer in the unit. At a 50 bucks to 100 does that makes it 500 bucks on the unit (if there were 2000 there would be atleast 750 bucks). These are the low end numbers because the actual percentages are higher by about 5-10%.
In the past the total number of permits has been around 40 or so. If a good portion of the bucks are getting huge (190 +) at 4 years old how on earth is taking 40 bucks (assuming everyone tags out which would never happen)shoot the quality out of the unit? I'm betting the buck recruitment is higher than that every year.
Given the above and the fact that the unit is producing bruiser bucks what is the rational for reducing the permit numbers? Once again the unit keeps getting better and the numbers are there to argue for keeping the current permit numbers.
I would be more than happy to apologize for my mistaken thought process if you can show me a valid reason that current numbers are too much and that they need to be reduced to SAVE the Henries.
 
Good post Walleye I have a bud with 13 pts wanting a muzz tag and he's not happy. LOL Did you notice the NR's didnt see an decrease.
 
Actually the archers gave up one of their tags to the non residents. This is the first year for a non resident archery tag and i believe the first year for a reduction of resident archery tags.

I would be supportive of this if I could understand, I mean if it made sense and had good science behind it. The unit has a very high buck to doe ratio. I believe the managment hunt could really help this unit. I just hope they put enough enforcment down there to keep a good handle on things. They gave out at least four Henry mountain tags to be auctioned at various events. There was at least one tag but I think it may have been two, given at the SFW expo You know the governors tag and the sportmans tag will spend some time there as well. My point being that they are letting a lot of extra guns on that mountain to be worried about hacking two permits off of the Muzzleloader and Archery only.

More power to the guy that waits ten plus years to draw this tag and kills the biggest deer of his life. It may not be five years old, it may not be representative of what the unit can produce, but it will have been a trophy to him even if it scores 180. Many hunters just want to kill a big 4 point period. And at worst it is no different than offering a few managment tags.

The unit has plenty of deer in their prime for those hunters that want to really pursue them.
 
Most deer are not 190 at 4 years old. In fact most deer could die of old age and not be 190. Yes it sucks we all have to wait to hunt the henrys. I would rather see a permit reduction than increase there right now. If you want to take "just a buck" hunt another unit which is easier to draw.
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"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
+1, Nunya-

If you want to kill an average buck- go hunt some other unit. An average 4 point is an average 4 point regardless of the name of the mountain range.

T264
 
I'm a non-resident that has been hoping Utah would finally offer an archery tag in the Henries.I know the odds are slim but I have 14 points & used them on the archery hunt.If they stop giving a NR archery tag,I'll go back to applying for points only or move to Utah!LOL
David
 
They kill a few pigs every year yes. You don't see most of the deer that come off the unit because they are below average or average bucks. You only see the above average deer. Everyone who hunts the Henrys are not killing 200+ deer or 190 deer for that matter.You kill a couple 6-7 year old bucks, you kill a few 4 year old bucks, you kill a couple 2-3 year old bucks, you get 4 year old average. You kill a couple over 190 you kill a few at 190 you kill a couple under 190. Gives you a 190 average.
You people say you would be happy with a 4 year old deer but you won't put into the draw in a lesser unit because you want to hunt the henry mts. The only reason you want to hunt the henry mts. is because of its quality yet your here wanting more tags which would ruin quality. I'm confused???
If you want a 25" 180 gross buck burn your points on the book cliffs.
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"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
NUNYA
adamsoa never said he wanted to see an increase. He never said he just wanted a buck. He is just unhappy with the cut in tags. If you want to cut the tags cut them evenly across the board. If you want to cut the tags to help quality cut the tags on the weapons that affect the quality the most.

This proposal is an SFW and wildlife board baby. It is all about the money! In which you NUNYA will profit from directly so no wonder you are all for it. Ten tags on the henneries 4 of which you will be guiding possibly even more. You sure won't have any Utards shooting the buck you guys are after. Cause there won't be any Utards hunting them with 10 tags.





Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-09 AT 06:24PM (MST)[p]The DWR anticipated a small increase in permits this year. They published their regulations in January and it included that they would offer a non-resident archery and muzzleloader permit. Well, the numbers came in and they saw that the unit is not meeting the new, higher age objective so they had to cut tags. But the non-res had already applied and the DWR had already told them they would get a chance at a tag. So the nonresidents get one of the resident tags this year for archery and muzzleloader.

The rifle permits were reduced also (if the Board passed the DWR's recommendations, which I heard they did). There was a landowner tag and a nonresident tag removed. So 2 rifle tags, 1 archery tag, and 1 muzzleloader tag were removed from the 2008 numbers.

I am not here to lobby for increased trophy tags on the Henry Mtns. I just think it is odd that "the best mule deer unit" is seeing reduction in permit numbers when the herd is growing.

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www.sagebasin.com
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Nunya, thanks, I am glad there is someone that agrees... I don't have a lot of logic behind the number cuts, but when you see the quality down this year from last year you will all understand the cuts..., lets wait and see the results of the 2009 henries tags, my money is quality is down...
 
Who is the group that wants the unit managed for the higher age class?

Uhm - just about everyone on this website!
 
Is there any type of game warden and law enforcement presence down there, i spent over 45 days down there last year granted wasn't on the roads much but never saw one during the whole time, unless they were under cover slamming natty lights cruising around in a side x side. I'm suprised there isn't more of a poaching problem than what it is.
 
Yes I will be guiding there, on the other hand I have 11 points and wish I could hunt it before the DWR does to the henrys what it has just done to our elk herd. I will wait and hunt other areas out of state until I draw.
SWBM, If I needed money I dam sure would not waste my efforts on being a hunting guide. I would stay employed at my real job for those 4 months. :)
Oh and yes I am for across the board tag cuts not to mention higher tag prices. It is ridiculous that people are willing to pay 93K for a henrys permit and the DWR would give one to you for $163.00. It should be ten times that!

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"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
Yes Nunya we can tell that you are one of those guys that choose to make a living guiding even though you can't make any money at it. You have a true dedication and love of hunting that no one else can understand. Others haven't given what you have, so they can't understand what you go through. Cry me a river!!!
I think that people with ideas like yours are what ruin hunting. Yes, only those that are willing to pay 93k should be able to hunt those bucks. They should only go to the highest bidder. Those ?you?s? that you mentioned are the other resident hunters and me. We are obviously not worthy to hunt on your mountain if we don't want to pay 93k and hire you as a guide. I see the light and I'm sorry that I even dared to put in for the Henries, and I actually expected to only pay 163 dollars for a permit. I was even going to guide myself. Shame on me!!!!! I see the light, please guide me!!!!! I'll sell my house and buy a tag!!!

:)



Andy
 
Andy, You don't have any idea who I am don't assume I make a living guiding. I don't. Those "you's" I mention are also myself. I also put in for the henry Mt every year. I would glady pay $1630 to hunt the mountain. As would anyone who really had a desire to hunt those giant bucks. $163 dollars for that tag is ridiculous! I could care less who hires a guide or not. Last year I spent twice as much time on the henry mt helping someone who had drawn the tag than I did getting paid to hunt it. I burned close to 2k in gas and paid my own way to do it. Didn't make a dime din't want a dime!
No I won't guide you. I guide because I love being able to hunt the henry Mt and pahvant every year. Not to hang out with azz holes, your outta luck. Cry me a river.
--------------------------------------

"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
Nunya, I know who you are and I don't care that's not the point. Congratulations on hunting the Henries and Monroe every year. I would love to have the time and money to do the same.
I hate it when elitist pricks get on and tell me that only people with the true dedication to pay huge prices for a tag should be able to hunt. You used words like ?anyone who really had a desire to hunt those bucks would pay that?. Do you have any idea about the public system? They are public animals.
Yes I could afford it but that's not the point. It is a resident tag for residents and should be priced so that everyone can have the opportunity. It's not just for those people whom you deem worthy. There is not a bar that you put up to test a person?s loyalty to your ideals of what a TRUE hunter should be. So I stand by my last statement and say that people with mindsets like yours are what are ruining hunting. I think that you would probably fit in pretty good in Europe though.
 
Obviously everyone has an opinion and they will differ a bit. But, I thinks everyone that has set foot on that mountain would prefer they err on the side of caution and protect the Henrys. It is an incredible place.

I hope I draw my archery tag this season, but I am willing to wait.

I really hope they don't ruin it.
 
Sorry Andy Utah's wildlife is not public property. With the exception of me thinking your a prick you have no idea what my mind set is.
Its not about Me or money or elitist pricks or guides or what ever is going through your tiny mind.
ITS ABOUT THE FACT THAT WE HAVE THE BEST MULE DEER HUNTING IN THE WORLD ON THE HENRY MTS AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU WANT TO F IT UP BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THEY DESERVE A PERMIT RIGHT NOW!!! WHILE THE REST OF US ARE CONTENT TO WAIT AND HOPE SOME DAY WE DRAW AND CAN REALLY HAVE A CHANCE AT TAKING A GIANT DEER!
Does that make sense?
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"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-09 AT 10:54AM (MST)[p]I never said that I deserve one right now. I was just wondering about why they cut tags with no supporting or stated reason.
I never asked for an increase!

As to the wildlife they are property of the state. They are not property of the highest bidder. I dont mind waiting my turn. I just think that it needs to be priced so that everyone who wants the opertunity to hunt them has the oppertinity to do so. How is it fair to everyone else that the price for a tag becomes exclusive? Do they have any less right to world class mule deer because they have a family and cant afford to pay that high prices that you want to see? I guess they could cut out school lunch or something for the kids to do it but why is it about money? I could care less what the tag sells for or what you think its worth. Its about fairness. The deer are on public land and with a draw system everyone should have a chance to draw.
Somehow you thinking I'm a prick has made my day all that much better
 
Adam, I'm with you!

Managing deer/elk by harvest ages makes no sense and is poor management of wildlife. Harvest age tells you what? Only the age of the bucks/bulls killed, NOT the age of the bucks/bulls still alive on the unit(s). What is gained by mandating that 50-60% of the bucks harvested on the Henry unit be 5+ years old? NUNYA himself admits that most bucks will NEVER hit the 200" mark regardless of their age, so why force a unit to carry such animals for 6+ years? Doing so hurts overall quality and overall quantity. There are plenty of 200" bucks on the Henry for those willing to put in the work to locate one, reducing the number of tags is inane and will HURT the quality of the unit in the long run.

PRO

www.oddiction.com
 
Lucky for us you guys don't make the rules and we will continue to be able to hunt giant bucks on the Henry Mt.
Your way of thinking has effed up the rest of the state, go hunt it.

--------------------------------------

"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
Nunya,

Your powers of persuasion and critical thinking never cease to amaze. If you don't have a good argument you can always end with ?well you guys suck?. I'll keep trying to understand the process and doing what I can to help it change. Good luck, maybe I'll see you down on the Henries if I ever get lucky enough to draw a tag.

Andy
 
Don't need to persuade any one. Never said you suck either.
It would be great to see you down there. I would show you a couple giant bucks. While I explained and showed you what was going on down there. Once you understood the deer herd there, How there are 3 seperate mountains and how they are being hunted by the majority of the tag holders you would see that the DWR finally did the right thing.
Am I happy they cut tags? Hell no! I am trying to draw one. Will it help preserve the quality on the unit, so when and a big if I do, I can take my buck of a lifetime? Yes. I won't complain about that.

--------------------------------------

"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
+1, Also if its not about money then why give one of those tags to NR that tag should stay to Res.hunters if they are droping permit numbers
 
After looking at all the post we have great unit, but if we are cutting tag #s because were killing 200 inch 4year old dear and not 200 5 to 6 year old deer.Don't drop tag #s keep them the same.The DWR giving a NR tag makes them look like ther money hungry. Adamosa ,Im with you on this one good post
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-11-09 AT 09:49PM (MST)[p]SW BUCKMASTER ARE YOU NOT A UTARD YOURSELF?AND BY THE WAY WHERE ARE THE HENNERIES?



SPELLING IS A YEAR ROUND COMMITMENT!!!!!!!
 
>NUNYA
>adamsoa never said he wanted to
>see an increase. He never
>said he just wanted a
>buck. He is just unhappy
>with the cut in tags.
>If you want to cut
>the tags cut them evenly
>across the board. If you
>want to cut the tags
>to help quality cut the
>tags on the weapons that
>affect the quality the most.
>
>
>This proposal is an SFW and
>wildlife board baby. It is
>all about the money!
>In which you NUNYA will
>profit from directly so no
>wonder you are all for
>it. Ten tags on the
>henneries 4 of which you
>will be guiding possibly even
>more. You sure won't have
>any Utards shooting the buck
>you guys are after. Cause
>there won't be any Utards
>hunting them with 10 tags.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Archery is a year round commitment!!
>
 
The actual permit numbers are up on the Utah DWR big game page. Looks like they reduced tags from both the Henries and the Paunsagunt.
 

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