Congrats to the DWR

T

thebuckstopshere

Guest
Ive tried my hardest to defend the DWR over the years. No more.

The DWR has turned hunting in Utah into just about the biggest cluster huck ever - so they can take more $10 fees.

Gonna be sweet hunting the Southern Region every six years! The Central Region every 3-4! AWESOME! Just what I want to do, hunt once every five years. (Oh wait, some of you idiots think that is the solution! LOL!).

I hope some of the new wildlife board members actually have a brain between their ears that allows for a rational thought, because it would be nice to see something rational just once.
 
Im guessing that 50,000 people earned a preference point this year. You think that makes the draw better?

LMK?
 
I have a friend from Southern Utah. Never hunted before. Family hunts, so she started applying in 2008. No tag. So she has a preference point for this year - but again no tag.

Well now that the DWR has made preference points as easy to pick as your nose, she likely will draw a tag next year and then be done for seven years.

Guess what, she won't waste another dime on this chit. Now thats the spirit!
 
>what u want to do?


How about you draw a tag, whether its first, second, third, fourth or fifth choice, and you lose your preference points. NOW THAT IS FAIR. BY GOD we can't have that.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-28-09 AT 09:09AM (MST)[p]There ain't no way to let everyone hunt deer... But what are your suggestions?
 
yes everyone should get a tag, dont matter if there is any deer or not, as long as we have oppertunity.
 
So the next step is to open deer hunting to year round, multiple deer permits, and sell all they can...???
What good is opportunity, if there is no success or any reason to even go..?
 
Now I might be wrong, but if you have a preference point then you should draw before anyone that has no prefernce point. So how is it possible to have more than one preference point, you should only sit out one year....am I right or is this wrong?
 
You accumulate a preference point every year you don't draw. It likely took at least one if not two preference points to draw a southern region general deer permit this year. It will likely take two preference points to draw next year and could continue to point creep from here on out.

Smokepole
 
Rumor has it not even the famed Northeastern Region has gone unoticed and is sold out in round one. The northern will go in the next few years.

If the DWR wasn't doing such a great job why would tags be selling out so fast and in so much demand.... ;-)
 
FYI - the DWR made a change this year to where you can pick your first choice region to apply for, and if you don't draw your first choice, you still get a preference point.

So if there were 100,000 applications for 97,000 tags, you could have about 75,000 people that accumulated a preference point - i.e. possibly everyone that didn't draw their first choice.

This is why everyone now listed the NE and N as their third, fourth, or fifth choices and those tags are LONG gone.

My argument has nothing to do with increasing opportunity, or tag numbers. My argument is its gonna take all of you a gall darn long time to to draw your pisscutter tags from here on out. Like maybe 10 years in the Southern Region. But hey, everyone will move to the Dedicated program right? So that fixes it.

Kudos to the DWR!
 
I have an idea, lets do away with seperate point pools for LE and General deer. Technicley they are all LE units now. 1 point pool and if you draw your first choice you lose your points. Same with elk. Your first choich selection requires the use of your points.
 
you can move to my beloved state of CA to a great city like SAN FRANCISCO and apply as a non resi hunter then you can hunt southern every other year no problem and your fav buddy will cook, clean and service you! weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

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Rackmaster
 
the buck,

did your friend put in with someone that didn't have a point? i know a lot of people with points who dont draw because they put in with others who don't have a points. the average is rounded down and its as if they don't have a point.

the southern region might see less pressure in the future due to the dwr allowance of 2nd choice gets a point. i always put in for southern and then hunt northern as a back up. i love to hunt north too. its been a pretty good rotation. it may be that if i want to hunt north i'll have to plan to go there.
 
That's some of the strangest math I have ever seen. Considering you can't draw your 2nd choice tag unless your 2nd choice unit is undersubscribed, the majority of hunters will get their 1st choice and only those who put in for the northern region will get a tag and a preference point.
 
Utah already gives twice as many tags as there are bucks. Why not make it 3 or 4 times as many? Why people want more and more regardless of quantity and quality is beyond me. Take the family camping in October and carry a gun around for fun and call it deer camp? I have a Central Tag you can have.
 
The real problem is this....the damn units are way to big. Utah needs to micro manage their units like Colorado and that would help a bunch. Another problem is that we are trying to get our kids into hunting and yet most all of the kids I know never even drew out for a hunt on their first year to hunt. How can you get a kid excited about hunting if they can't draw a tag?
 
Utah has been screwing up hunts and animal populations for the last 40 years with piss poor management. Still, Utah's tags are highly sought after and nobody can get a tag. I've never been quite able to put 2 and 2 together on this.....

Todd
 
Lets merge the LE and general season point pools. If you draw a tag, even if it is Northern Region, you loose your points. I think that if you hunt buck deer in any given unit or weapon type in the state, your points should be gone and you start over. Make people choose if they want to hunt trophy bucks, or if they just want to hunt every year. You can't let everyone in the state put in for the Henries/Pauns and still try to draw a Southern tag too. Demand far exceeds supply. Merging the point system would improve odds for both LE and general region deer hunters.

I would also like to see us offer some additional hunts to spread applicants out more too. Maybe an early high country rifle hunt in the Uintas with 10 tags. A late muzz hunt in the Southwest Desert with 10 tags, a late archery hunt on the Book Cliffs with 10 tags. Hunts in smaller areas with few tags that could rotate on a 3 year basis to not put permanent hurt on any specific area. These tags would pull in lots of applicants and would not result in a major impact to the units. I think there are things that could be done to improve draw odds, but there would be major changes involved.
 
Dax,

Once again nice to know that somebody with the DWR is THINKING!

There are plenty of ways to increase opportunity, increase draw odds, and help the deer herds out.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-29-09 AT 09:47AM (MST)[p]In prior years they had the LE and general points separate because there was enough supply for the demand, GENERALLY speaking, to where it was working. This was important to the Utah residents because of the hunting tradition that is woven into a large percentage of Utah families.

It seems to me that is why they have done a separate general point system. They were trying to appeal to that demographic, which was large. Now, that demographic is getting upset again because the demand is starting to outnumber the supply by an ever increasing amount. Why, you ask? Well, it's not NECESSARILY because the DWR has done such a good job in management. It could be but it could not be. That would be poor deductive reasoning. An absolute reason is because the human population is growing at a faster rate than the supply (deer) and thus the problem.

So, it may be time to adapt because the human/animal relationship has evolved. Combining the general and LE draws together MAY be a solution, although not the only solution. It probably deserves some looking in to, because one thing for sure is the situation HAS to get worse because ALL signs point to the human population continuing to grow at a faster rate than the deer.

Another solution that was mentioned is worth looking into, that being dividing the management areas into smaller units. I don't know the DWR's official reason as to why they are as large as they are now. Has anyone heard a representative speak on this? I always suspected that it had more to do with the Utah family hunting tradition demographic as well. They wanted to instill as little restriction as possible when "regions" were first instituted because of the human nature of resisting change. Before families had no restriction on permits and no restrictions on areas to hunt. Then they had a long season so they could go hunt with this part of the family here, then this part of the family there, etc. This was an awesome thing. My family is from Southern Utah so I grew up in that environment and am forever grateful for it because it gave me the passion I have today. However, from a scientific perspective, managing a smaller area can be more accurate and controlled because you can more easily manage the effects the areas' variables can have on the animals (ie control hunting pressures, predator effects, moisture/feed conditions, human infringement (development), etc. This CAN, if run competently and accurately improve not only huntable numbers but quality as well. This potentially requires more money to manage this way also so it is a complex problem but one that can be solved!

Unfortunately things, environments, habitats, socio-economical dynamics EVOLVE. This is why it is imperative that our state wildlife departments are proactive and evolve also. However being proactive is not enough. They need to be properly informed, have qualified persons to interpret that ACCURATE information, and then the integrity to make decisions that are best for both the Wildlife and the majority opinion of people it serves, not at the detriment of the wildlife. No state department is perfect and it is a work in progress but we should hold them accountable, I see nothing wrong with that. We no longer can just take for granted or assume that the people in charge at the top are acting in the best interests of the wildlife and/or the majority opinion of the people. The recent events in our world are proving that more and more each day!


P.S. Daxter, I like your active, creative thinking too! We need more of that at the top where it can make a difference!
 
I agree with Dax, they should have one point system for deer, and those that want to wait for a trophy area can wait there 5-7 years, and those that want to hunt every year can, merge the points on the deer. There also is another hunt they could add, it would south elk ridge south of highway 95, but draw 10-15 tags down there as well.
 
>Lets merge the LE and general
>season point pools. If
>you draw a tag, even
>if it is Northern Region,
>you loose your points.
>I think that if you
>hunt buck deer in any
>given unit or weapon type
>in the state, your points
>should be gone and you
>start over. Make people
>choose if they want to
>hunt trophy bucks, or if
>they just want to hunt
>every year. You can't
>let everyone in the state
>put in for the Henries/Pauns
>and still try to draw
>a Southern tag too.
>Demand far exceeds supply.
>Merging the point system would
>improve odds for both LE
>and general region deer hunters.

This seems so obvious to me. I don't understand why this hasn't been pushed harder.
 
Dahlmer,

This may or may not be the answer,

"No state department is perfect and it is a work in progress but WE SHOULD HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE, I see nothing wrong with that."
 
No doubt that it is not THE answer, it does nothing to benefit actual deer herds. What it does do is manage hunters accessiblity to a limited resource. The biggest divide among hunters is opportunists vs. trophy hunters. Forcing us to choose one or the other creates more opportunity for both types of hunters given a limited resource. It seemed to me the DWR did a great job of gathering information last year only to turn around and ensure none of their decision were based on the data they gathered.
 
dax,

did preference point applicants exceed supply this year? i'm still skeptical that buckspheres friend didn't negate points by putting in with someone without points.

people tell me every year "i didn't draw" and i had x points. it turns out they just put in with someone that brought the average to nill.

one lady once told me she hadn't drawn central in 3 years and hadn't put in with anyone else. i helped her look on line and it turned out her husband had not entered her. busted!!!
 
one preference point did not get you a guaranteed tag in the Southern Region this year. Its getting close in the Central, and with people likely banking a point this year, it will be there next is my guess.

Maybe not, maybe most NE and N Utah hunters were not smart enough to bank a point and still likely be able to hunt where they wanted.
 
this is simple no non resident tags sold period tax payers of the state shoud have an option to hunt the state resorces . 1st thru 5 a utahn should have a tag if he or she wants one somewere in the state... also land owner buck tags ridiculouse let the residents draw those numbers and negotiate with the land owners to hunt the land vs the land owners raking it in
 
>this is simple no non resident
>tags sold period

I'm pretty sure that will never happen no matter how bad residents want it. Think about how much revenue the state brings in each year just from non-residents.
 
Broker, you should read the privileges and immunities clause of the U.S. States Constitution before you try to cut nonresidents out of hunting in Utah. Also, you might try the equal protection clause since you suggest "taxpayers" of Utah should get the tags. I think the law will permit you to restrict non-residents but never cut them out completely. And no, I don't hunt general season Utah for anything.

Plus, even if it were legal to do what you suggest, every other state would do the same to Utah residents. Do you think it would really be worth every Utah resident being banned from hunting every other Western state just so you can get your forkhorn tag every year? I doubt it.
 
Utah was the Fasted (Human Population) Growing State Last year.

The Mule Deer herd is not Growing (declining really)

So how can you give more tags for less deer?

Are you going to start a Utah Immigration Control to limit people moving to or being born in the state?

Utah ALREADY has smaller units for deer, and already manages for buck/doe ratios on them (look at the 5 day seasons on the La Sal, Nebo, Vernal, Monroe, Oquirrh units)

They Don't divide tags by sub-units YET.

The only way around it is to copy other states with similar population dynamics, like NV, AZ, and to some extent CO -make ALL deer tags Limited.

You could move to another state with less human population and more mule deer like ID, WY, MT

Hunt small/upland game for the family tradition or general elk

There are millions of left over deer tags in other states- it's called Whitetail deer over-population (and that's not counting Alaska!!). The US has the best hunting in the world with the freedom you have.

Nobody likes change, its inevitable.
 

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