Utah General Season Deer/Good or Poor

nebo12000

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For all of you who hunt Utah general season deer--The DWR believes that a "majority" of Utah hunters are just fine with being able to hunt every year and are not concerned with the number or quality of the deer. Until they are convinced that the "majority" of deer hunters in the state are unhappy with the management of the herds, the status quo will remain. Those of us that are trying to get some real change will just have to hope that more hunters will get a whole lot louder. Unfortunately the RACs are weighted away from hunting interests. The Southern and Southeastern RACs voted for 5 day hunts the Northern and Northeastern RACs voted to accept the DWR recommendation for a 9 day hunt and the Central RAC voted to a tie to implement a 5 day hunt. The tie was broken by the committee chair to accept the 9 day recomendation. What do the majority of hunters REALLY want-- More bucks and larger herds where the habitat can sustain them or to maintain the status quo.
 
You pose a great thought that will hopefully get a lot of response Nebo. Unfortunately your ultimate question at the bottom is blatantly biased against the information that you so helpfully presented... "What do the majority of hunters REALLY want-- More bucks and larger herds where the habitat can sustain them or to maintain the status quo."
You obviously believe that the measures voted on will not raise the herd numbers, or the buck numbers, they are just "status quo". You are obviously frustrated (as am I) but you really ought to pose a solution for how to raise herd numbers and buck numbers rather than take subtle shots at the current regulations. That'll get A LOT of responses.

Anybody who says they don't want larger herds and more bucks is flat out lying: I guarantee that the MAJORITY of hunters would say they DO want more bucks and larger herds.

The real question is "HOW do we get larger herds and MORE bucks?"
 
Good questions Nebo, like the five day hunt, but I live up north. The herds came back with it so keep it. Let the youth go for the nine days.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-24-09 AT 11:00AM (MST)[p]BrowningRage-- Unfortunately you are right-- everyone would like to see more and bigger-- however how many would give up hunting every year or even be willing to hunt one day.
According to the states Big Game manager the only real way to increase buck/doe ratios and herd numbers is to decrease the number of hunters. He believes that 5 day hunts do not make a difference. Decreasing permit numbers is the only way to increase deer numbers. Like I said-- what are we willing to give up.
By the way-- the current regulations are not designed to increase populations or buck/doe ratios.
 
I agree that the question is completely irrelevant. Everyone wants more deer and bigger bucks. Nevada has limited hunters much more than Utah. In Nevada it takes 2-8 years to draw tags, then they have about 40-50% success rates, with 40-50% of the harvested bucks being 4 point or better. So you wait 2-8 years to draw a permit which will allow you a 25% chance to shoot a mature buck. I think I'll take my chances with Utah's general system.

When you say-- "where the habitat can sustain them" --maybe the herds we see are all the habitat can sustain.?. Hunters shooting bucks isn't depressing the deer herds. There are other factors influencing the herds. Developement, vehicles, fencing, predation, elk, etc. are a much larger factor than hunters shooting bucks.

As for the 5 day hunt, well I guess it does not matter what the UDWR thinks about it. The 5 day hunt is implemented in the Mule Deer Management Plan. You saw it work on the Nebo in 2001-2003. The Southern Region has seen it work. While the 5 day hunt is not the complete reason for increases, it is folly for anyone to ignore it as part of the equation which has increased deer herds.

Now, how do we grow the deer herd? Really grow it, not just increase it by a couple hundred bucks.
 
The next question is, what are acceptable numbers to US HUNTERS? As a LE unit, the Book Cliffs get a lot of flack... But what if the whole state were just like the Books? Is that what everyone would like to see? Or maybe not quite like that, maybe like the Vernon Unit..? Would we want to regulate so the entire state was like the Henry's, or Paunsagaunt..?
In these cases, limited tags did improve herds (IMO) over that of most general areas... However, I'd like to see just how many tags would be cut in order for an entire state to be as bountiful as the Books...

Thanks for the thread Nebo... This is a good one
 
I would love to see the whole state have the deer that the bookcliffs have. Not great bucks but good ones. The state needs to get out of the mind set that the deer hunt is still a family style hunt like it was in the 70's. Its great to go with family members don't get me wrong, but the state has to give way to many tags out so the whole family can go. The state needs to reduce tag numbers and split the state up into more subunits to make the general hunt better.
 
I want my cake and eate it too. I want bigger bucks but I want to be able to hunt every year. I have to decide what is more important to me and that is the oppertunity to hunt every year. Even though they are not popular and have proven not to be affective, I would rather see an antler restriction that not being able to hunt every year.

Mark
 
It is important to note that the DWR has set a couple of ground rules-- 1] any changes must be revenue neutral- in other words any changes must not decrease revenue 2] any changes must not discourage the recruitment of youngsters into hunting.
So, fewer tags would create an increase in license fees and tags for youth must not be decreased or their "opportunity" limited .
According to the statistical information I have been shown, their are number of areas in the state that are well below management/habitat objective for deer. The DWR wants to increase the herds in these areas. The Manti and the Nebo sub-units are at about 50% of management objective. If the big game managers are correct in their belief that only a decrease in tags (hunters) will allow the herds to grow -- are you willing to be one of the hunters who doesn't get a tag ? Are you willing to pay another $10 for a tag when you do get one?
The big game biologists state, that decreasing the number of buck tags and thereby increasing the survival of bucks each year really doesn't help the herds to grow. However on sub-units that are well below carrying capacity, does it really matter if the increase is in bucks or does? One caveat to this though is that according to Giest in his book " Mule Deer", having an abundance of older age bucks that compete for breeding does, help the production and survival of fawns because most of the fawns will inherit superior genetics that enable them to better avoid predators and sustain them during winter months. Certainly this should be conidered as part of the solution. I for one am willing to give up hunting every year and pay a little extra to help get deer quality and quantity increased. I am willing to do it so it can hopefully be better for all of you and especially for my kids and grandkids so that they enjoy the challenge and learn to respect the animals they hunt.
 
I do not believe that an antler restriction would help the herds out any more than just shortening the hunts. I think as browning said the real question here is do you want big deer or to hunt every year? I would much rather have big deer. but in this case if you look at the majority of people that hunt they do not care they use it for an excuse to get out with the family. Plenty of people use it for meat and then there are few that use it for trophy hunting. I do think everyone wants it so that they see big deer. But in my experiences most of the people that I hear complain about not seeing any big deer, I have not seen them get off the road. The farthest I have seen most of them get off the road is the five yards to take a pi$$ and to throw thier beer cans off in the trees where no one will see them.

I see big deer every year but I work for them. There for I do not complain. This year in the canyon I hunt I saw eleven other people including the ones I was hunting with. We are the same twelve people in there every year. I can't count how many times I have seen other people in there but they go in there once and never come back. So I think some of the problems of people not seeing big deer are thier faults more than the UDWR's faults.
 
As was already stated, why not break the state into smaller units? I guess that would make to damn much sense. Another thought is antler restrictions on said smaller units.
 
I would like to see a huge decrease in general season deer permits. I'm an avid hunter, and I would rather hunt every other year with less crowding, than for the system to remain how it is. I would also like to see smaller units, micromanaged similar to Colorado. Point restriction would also be great (3 point or better), with some exceptions, such as youth and disabled hunters, etc.

Any of these things would definitely be a step in the right direction.

Nocked N Loaded
 
im a fan of what colorado has done. by micro managing there state they have givin the hunters the best of both worlds. they can hunt less quality deer every year on some units or wait for the big buck on others. they also differentiate in times of year they hunt 1rst-4rth seasons and hunts go to the max points not some random guy with 1 point. utah is the only state that i know that hasn't gone to a micro managed system yet and im not sure why.
 
In order for Utah to manage like Colorado they would have to cut tags from 100,000 down to 75,000. Colorado has approximately 600,000 deer and issued 155,000 tags last year equaling 25% of tags vs overall deer numbers. Utah has approximately 300,000 deer and issued approximately 100,000 tags last year equaling 33% of tags vs overall deer numbers. Also more staff will be needed to manage more units therefore costing more $$ and add that with the cut in revenue from the decrease in tags. Unfortunately it just doesn't add up. I think it would be great to manage like Colorado but lets be realistic it probably is not going to happen unless things change with their budget. I have seen good results with the 5 day hunt, why not stick with it. Why change what seems to be working best given the circumstances that Utah has to deal with. It is also hard to compare Utah with Colorado because they have at least three times the habitat as Utah.
 
Great thoughts from everyone and a good post.

Some things that I think would help. Just my opinion, so doesn't mean much but here goes...

1. break the state up into the 30 or so management units that it already recognizes and make a hunter pick a unit and certain weapon/season.

2. Let the biologist actually do thier job and set a herd number objective and minumum buck/doe ratio for each unit and use tags #s or season length to achieve this objective.

3. Manadory harvest reporting like they do on the limited entry units now. The biologists will know how many bucks are being harvested and what size they were. Set it up online and if you don't do it, you are not eligible to apply the next season.

4. Give incentives for hunters to take mature bucks and let the little ones grow up. Like maybe bring your buck into a division office to be evaluated by the biologist and if he signs off on it as being 4+ years old, you get your bonus points back. This could also be done by mailing the teeth in like they do for elk.

5. More opportunity for youth... like if drawn they get to hunt all the hunts including the possible 2 rifle seasons(2011 proposal) and they can hunt a whole region not just a particular sub-unit. And on the units that are a 5 day rifle they get 9.


Thanks
oakbrush
 
I think it is ridiculous to say that the 5 day hunt has not had an effect on the southern unit. Anyone who has hunted that unit in the last 5 years could tell you that; every year it has been consistently getting better and better. This nine day hunt will undo it all in a very short time. I know that out of the 5 bucks I seen harvested all of them were after the hunt should have ended (if it were still a five day hunt). And 4 of those five deer were 3 1/2 years old or better. 2 of them pushing the 180 mark.
 
I think people have presented some good thoughts.

My thoughts are:

As it stands now, the current deer mangagement is lacking in how it could potentially improve the deer herds here in Utah. The only tools the DWR can use, are changing the season dates and shortening/lengthing the seasons. I really think that neither one will go a long way in increasing buck to doe ratios. The only other option they have is to shut down a unit, if the buck-to-doe ratio gets bad enough and make that unit limited entry. Then, realistically, you are looking at a few to many years before you can hunt that unit if and when it gets back to objective.

I know the Division is also starting some fawn/doe studies (collaring both does and fawns) in several units around the state to gain a better understaning of why fawn recruitment is so poor in some areas. I commend them for getting the study started. The more we know, the better we can manage.

If anyone was at the Southern/SE racks, you know that the RAC's unamimously passed a proposal that would break up these two regions into smaller management units. There is still and will be much more work put into these plans in the future, before the next 5 year deer plan is implemented.

I really think that we as sportsmen need to have some sort of long term rationale when it comes to our deer herds. There is so much more potential for our deer herds, compared to what they are now. I truly believe that some sort of compromise can be met between the quality of deer hunting in utah and opportunity. I don't think we can continue to issue as many tags as we do and expect anything to change. Hunters must be willing to sacrifice, but if it benefits our deer herds in the long run everyone should be for it in my opinion.

I don't think any hunter in Utah can say that are deer herds are in good shape. I also don't believe that any hunter can honestly say that are truly pleased with our general deer hunts. I would like to speak with anyone that says they are.

Let's get something done in regard to the deer management in Utah. Attend RAC's, send e-mails, attend meetings, and bottomline just get involved and make yourself heard if you really want to see some changes and see our deer herds improve.

BowHuntr
 
just a thought... if the deer numbers are so bad here, why does the DWR issue doe tags. Also, I would not like the state to turn into another Henries... I would like to hunt more often than every 40 years! As matter of fact, I think they should give a lot more tags out on the LE areas. I like to shoot big deer, but end up harvesting small forkies the majority of the time. I would rather shoot a small deer every year than to be able to hunt trophy deer every 4 or 5. For me, family is a big part of hunting and I think that we need opportunity more than 200" bucks. Just my .02 cents.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-24-09 AT 08:42PM (MST)[p]"What do the majority of hunters REALLY want-- More bucks and larger herds where the habitat can sustain them or to maintain the status quo."

Nebo, there is a pretty simple way to learn the answer to this question. I've mentioned it here before. Combine the bonus and preference point pools together. Let us tell the DWR if we're willing to give up the opportunity to hunt every year by forcing us to decide for ourselves. Currently, there is no skin off my back by putting in for an LE unit because I still get to hunt the general season every year. If putting in for an LE meant I couldn't hunt every year maybe I would act differently. Once the DWR can actually see where applications are flowing they can manage the state accordingly.

As far as lowering tag numbers goes...Will it increase buck:doe ratios? Probably, at least initially. However, cutting tags by more than 50% in the 90's hasn't done anything to improve overall herd health today. If the DWR wants to improve herds then the underlying issues that exist today need to be solved, otherwise, they're just pissing in the wind.
 
>The big game biologists state, that
>decreasing the number of buck
>tags and thereby increasing the
>survival of bucks each year
>really doesn't help the herds
>to grow.

Well my logic says that biologist is a retard. What happened when they decreased tags on the Pauns and the Books to zero? The herds went from almost nothing to lots of big bucks in just a few years.

>I for one am willing
>to give up hunting every
>year and pay a little
>extra to help get deer
>quality and quantity increased.

The last year I bought a general season tag was '99. I decided that it wasn't worth it. My kids were old enough this year that they wanted to get tags so I let them. What a rat race that was. People on every hill and in every draw. I don't see how any bucks survived. I fully expect that when application time rolls around they will say that they don't want tags this coming year.
 
No more general season deer for me in Utah. I will go outside the state and pay the extra to have a quality hunt. If Utah was smart they would start micro managing areas and close a few off for several years. The statements above prove to me that it's worth the almight dollar and only about the almighty dollar. The deer herds are beyond gradually doing things to increase the herds. It's time for drastic measures. The "everybody wants to hunt every year" attitude has to go out the window. Until the DWR reduces the amount of pressure these animals receive all the talk and promises are just that . . .TALK!

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
In the SE region the 5 day hunt helped the deer herd, We are seeing bigger bucks.

One of the things that I would love to see is closing of certain Mountain ranges in a region for 1-2 years then move the closure to another in in the same region, Take the Blues or the LaSal in the SE and close them every other year I think would help get some age on the bucks.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
i disagree with having to cut tags from 100k to 75k to create micro managed units. its not like your taking land away. they would just need to limit them in areas that are being hammered. not by taking tags away but by adjusting hunt lengths (5 or 9), size of deer you can shoot(3-point or bigger), season dates (rut or non rut), type of weapon(archery, muzz, rifle), ect.

as of hiring more staff i disagree on that aswell. for example right now the have a staff monitoring the southern region that spits that area into smaller regions for there studies. they then collect the overall data to create a forecast or estimate for the whole unit. why not just use that same staff and turn there smaller areas into smaller units? you cant tell me that they only have 2 or 3 staff members that control the whole southern region. its more like 10-20 if not more.

if managed right you would soon take that 300,000 deer and raise the buck to doe ratio and increase the heard sizes. the way it is going right now they are turning the southern unit into a draw unit at 1 in 2.3 people that draw it. that number isn't going to go down anytime soon and other general season hunts will soon follow.
 
It surprises me that few hunters ever think past cutting tags and mircomanagement.

Does anyone ever consider fawn survival rates? Does anyone realize if every doe had a fawn that survivied the the population would double in a year?

Additionally we should stop targeting trophey bucks. Leave them for the breeding. Shoot the ones that are edible, and collect trophey sheds.
 
Good thread. I wonder if anyone from the DWR or the Rac ever reads these threads and uses any of the information?

I like several of the ideas. Here's the ones I like, not in any particular order.

I think I like Wholelottabull's idea of going out of state. Seems like my out of state hunts are waaaayyy better than the resident hunts. No matter what state it is, they are better. Why????

Cut tag #s. Now!

Raise tag fees. Double.

Micro manage the entire state. As stated the units are already broken up for elk or other species. At least break the deer up into those sub units.

Make deer points deer points. You draw any buck deer tag, you burn your points, end of story.

Control the predators. Let the boys use whatever means needed to take care of the coyotes. (I've seen 3 different deer being attacked by coyotes in the last 14 months)

To recruit young hunters, I think big bucks do it better than puny ones. To illustrate my point; I grew up on the Paunsaugunt during the 70's & 80's. It was closed from 78-85 if I remember correctly. We didn't get to hunt it, and we complained for the first couple of years because we couldn't find any deer on the other side of the road. But once the huge bucks started showing up, we went looking for deer every night with our family. We spent way more days out in the hills just looking at all the monsters. Everyone did it. Even guys that didn't care that much about deer went to see them. We picked up big sheds, and many people came to photograph them and see the deer. Lots of us in my age group have became, guides, photographers, taxidermists, biologists, game wardens, and other areas of wildlife related work.

Now take the deer herd today, and go to the high school and there won't be a single kid going out in wildlife anything. Nobody goes out to look at the deer but us old timers that got hooked back when the deer were everywhere. The kids barely care about hunting. I don't care what you say, a kid will be more hooked on hunting if they kill a big buck than if they hunt hard and see hundreds of orange covered people everywhere, and either don't kill a deer, or kill a year old forky.

I believe we are mismanaging a valuable resource and barely utilizing a small portion of it to benefit us as hunters. We need to think about the deer and the deer herd first. Grow the herd, and the rest will take care of it's self. I know everyone can't kill a big buck, and some don't want to kill a big buck, but most will admit that they'd rather hunt and see big deer.

Last but not least if you want a family affair, take everyone along when someone draws a tag. Everyone in the family doesn't have a tag to enjoy a family hunt.

Deerbedead
 

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