Trophy or no trophy?

B

bldrbuck

Guest
After seeing another giant fall (utah governor's tag) and thinking about all of the eye's from various hunting businesses constantly searching out and finding these bucks for the high priced Joe's out there, when does a trophy deer not become of trophy because of how it was hunted and harvested?

Is a buck more rewarding to you all when you have located it yourself and truely hunted and harvested it yourself or with your hunting partner? It just seems like something is being lost out there in the hunting woods when the business of hunting takes place of the spirit of the hunt. Anyone else feel this way or am I way off?
 
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I agree. To me that is not real hunting. Is it hunting when all the hard work had been done by someone else? Don't get me wrong I would love to shoot a monster like the new mossback buck, but it would mean a lot more to me if I put in all the hard work for myself. Hunting is not flying in on a private jet the day of the hunt and have 10 guides telling your animal in just over that ridge sitting there waiting for you and all you do is pull the trigger. Congrats to the hunter and if that is what he likes to do fine by me, but I don't think for myself I would ever want to do something like that.
 
I think any animal killed is a trophy. It might be a youth?s first deer hunt where he kills a forkie or a brain surgeon who pays top dollar to a guide who spends 1,000s of hours scouting.

I also have a different perspective on it. I have been a Firefighter for six years and I read articles about paid firefighters and volunteer firefighters fighting each other. To me it's crazy to fight because one is getting paid and the other is not, they both do it for the same reason love of the job just the same as a guide and the Joes.

All ethical hunters have my respect!!
 
I feel the same way. How much accomplishment can you really feel when you hand over the $$$$ then are led directly to the animal and told when to shoot. There's nothing like hunting your a$# off for 5 days, then finally get rewarded. It feels nice to earn it, not to pay for it. It is a great buck though.
 
there is always going to be someone who has "hunted harder" than you have who could make the claim that his/her accomplishment is greater than yours. just like there will always be the folks who you hunted harder than who you can look down your nose at.

it is a completely subjective situation to judge someone else's hunting accomplishment.

as long as you followed all laws/regulations/ethics, i applaud anyone who is getting out in the field, harvesting anminals and putting money into the systems that manage our resources. any harvest of a free chase wild animal is an accomplishment that one can be proud of.

just my 2 cents...

mshred
 
Regardless of the work or adventure, the size of the "trophy" antlers remain unchanged.....people will be jealous and bragging rights will accrue....as money accrues to the outfitters. The "hunter" won't tell (may not even understand) the real story/compared to a real hunter. The guys who are making a living that way simply don't care.

Little skill and no respect for the game is involved. My not-quite-so-big (3 typicals over 190 net) animals were all DIY and all on public land. Mine are greater accomplishments.

That all being said, I'd (almost) give my right arm for a 240+ non-typical.


Within the shadows, go quietly.
 
Chances are they worked hard to earn the money they are spending on the hunt.

I don't like it probably cause I'm jealous I can't do it. People have figured out a way to capitalize on it and they are doing what they love. I would do the same thing if I could. The part I don't like us people running other people off of animals they think are theirs. (people do it whether they are an outfitter or not).
 
This argument is STUPID!! Do you take pride in your house, car or any other thing? Did you build them from scratch yourself? How about giving honor to the guide? They are true skilled in their craft, people. A given items value is subjective...only worth what someone is willing to pay. So if someone chooses to have their grandpa that is a skilled hunter show him the honey hole and tricks of the trade, or hire a professional there really is no difference. Help is help!!! I know all you DO IT YOURSELF hunters will probably disagree Oh well this is only a chat room on the internet after all.

My favorite and most sucessful hunting spot was shown to me by my uncle. Does that mean it has less value then if I went walking out to the woods myself and spent years learning the best areas to finally harvest an animal?

Please take some LOGIC classes or read a book to educate yourself a little.

Ok off my soap box...ignore or chastise me if you wish...whatever.

Marc


1 Corinthians 2:2
 
Is this what you are asking JB to post up?



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I get how you feel though. Reminds me of the time when the rich Englishmen would ride the elephants with 100 bush beaters all around flushing the game out of the grass while they picked them off from their perch. If it were up to me, there would be fixed hunter to guide ratios. No more than 3 guides for every hunter. But that will never happen and the more you complain about it the more bitter and jealous you sound. People don't understand the principle and only perceive your intentions as bitter and jealous.


UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
 
try this... most of us will consider lets say a 190 muley a trophy right? is the deer itself not a trophy because someone used a bunch of guides to harbest it? to me the animal itself is a trophy regardless of how much or how many guys it took to get it.
 
the deer is a trophy no matter how it was taken, even if the deer was hit by a car.... the DEER is still a trophy. Its not like ot was raised in a pen.
 
I agree it is one thing to pay that much money and have someone find your deer for you but what chaps me is they should have to do it in the regular hunting season just like all of us not when the deer are dumb and you can walk up to them, anyone can do that y would you pay?
 
roadhunter there are more hunts that go on then just the gov or sportsmans tag when the deer are dumb there are extended hunts late hunts and tell me you would kill your deer durin the regular hunt if you drew the sportsmans tag come on ha ha you just have to hate on people cuz your not killin any deer maybe try get off the road road hunter
 
IF you guys TRULY believe nothing has value beyond what someone is willing to pay.......I fear the values your children will have.



Within the shadows, go quietly.
 
Thank you, I so agree with you. These are hunters who work hard for what they have and choose to put hundreds of thousand of dollars into the hunting industry (Mule Deer Foundation). Those of you who want to whine and complain about them, BUY THE NEXT GOVERNOR'S TAG! The opportunity is open to everyone. Who said these guys didn't "hunt"? Were you there? Didn't think so. Just because there have been those in the past that flew in to shoot one, when it was located, doesn't mean they all do that. These guys have not broken any laws and everyone has different ethical values...it's all subjective.
 
I dont think anybody said that nothing has value unless you pay alot of money for it. The most valuable things in life come free to us. But just because somebody paid alot of money to harvest this deer doesnt mean that that experience/ deer has no or little value. Apparently getting this tag/deer meant alot to that hunter, and aparently it was worth $250,000 to him. My wife thinks that I'm crazy for spending $1500 on a bow... but thats because a bow has no value to her, so for her... it would be crazy.
 
Value is the eye of the beholder as is the trophy!! we all have different views!still a troph! in my eyes! no matter what the price!
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-04-09 AT 03:45AM (MST)[p]>This argument is STUPID!! Do you
>take pride in your house,
>car or any other thing?
>Did you build them from
>scratch yourself? How about giving
>honor to the guide? They
>are true skilled in their
>craft, people. A given items
>value is subjective...only worth what
>someone is willing to pay.
>So if someone chooses to
>have their grandpa that is
>a skilled hunter show him
>the honey hole and tricks
>of the trade, or hire
>a professional there really is
>no difference. Help is help!!!
>I know all you DO
>IT YOURSELF hunters will
>probably disagree Oh well this
>is only a chat room
>on the internet after all.
>
>
>My favorite and most sucessful hunting
>spot was shown to me
>by my uncle. Does that
>mean it has less value
>then if I went walking
>out to the woods myself
>and spent years learning the
>best areas to finally harvest
>an animal?
>
>Please take some LOGIC classes or
>read a book to educate
>yourself a little.
>
>Ok off my soap box...ignore or
>chastise me if you wish...whatever.
>
>
>Marc
>
>
>1 Corinthians 2:2

Here is some logic for you. The following is a representation of hunting at it's most basic:

H= hunter(you)
G= guide
V1, V2, V3,....Vn= hunt variables(all other hunting factors)
P= product(harvest result)

thus H+Vn=P1=DIY hunt,
and H+G+Vn=P2=Guided hunt,
so with all variables being the same, P1 DOES NOT EQUAL P2(unless you or your guide adds a negative affect to the hunt).

It is NOT the same. I am not saying it is better or worse. That is a value judgment that each must make for themselves, but, call a spade a spade!

30-30
 
I think what get confusing is how we feel about the trophy based on the circumstances of the hunt. A lot people get a bad taste in their mouth when they see 10 guys in a picture yet the guy who had the tag gets the "credit" even though it was a total group effort. We all want good tags in good areas to increase our chances of harvest yet we place judgements on those in pictures who have "paid" for their trophy. Some of these "rich" guys are probably tremendous hunters who would shame some of the internet critics if they hunted together however some of the "rich" guys couldnt kill an animal in a general hunt. Would you consider that buck a great trophy if the hunter was a DIY guy in a general area but the buck ran across the road and stood there and he killed it? The bottom line for most serious DIY trophy hunters is the circumstances of the hunt, the effort put out, and the size of the trophy are all factors in determining success. For some the size of the trophy is the only consideration but I don't think those type of people reflect on the hunt itself only the results. Just some things to think about because we would all like to have better tags for better areas or raffle tags etc and we could end up in the picture with friends and people who know nothing about us would assume we are rich, lazy, soft hunters who "paid" for the trophy.
 
Its not so bad using a guide its when MOSSBACK gets involved and brings in his 20 people and sits them on every dam ridge he can find to spot the deer he gives guides a bad name ask your self could you find a trophy if you had 20 people helping you personaly I cant stand Team Mossback if you ever been to the book cliffs the things they do are not ethical.
 
Posts like this one always interest me as I am one that is old enough to remember the days before things, in my opinion, got all screwed up - I remember when I began hunting in Colorado in 1960, I can't recall arguments about guides, ATV's, private property, size of the animals, and seasons. Maybe it existed then and today the internet has created an avenue for those to vent that we didn't have back then. I do know that bow hunters hunted with rifle hunters, we had one season for elk and deer and sometimes a post season and no units. I don't remember there being many guides, Most hunters hunted for the meat but were also proud if they were able to kill a trophy - some though left the horns at the kill site. I have read that the average hunter in Colorado is around 57 years of age, we are not doing something right in alot of areas or we would be attracting more younger hunters. I do know that times and the culture have changed and maybe that is the way it is suppose to be today. Just thought I would ramble, not sure what point I was trying to make but I am concerned about the direction our sport is going.

wildsage
 
This has been a heated debate for years on this site. I've always just sat back and read these posts but I'll bite and give my two cents.

What is the biggest problem you have with these hunts is it:
A. The Gov's tag in general? (ability to hunt year round w/any weapon)
B. The use of guides?
C. The umpteen subguides & spotters?

I personally don't have a problem with the gov tags. The revenue that is generated by the sell of the gov tags go into the habitat or other wildlife related projects. I know when I have the funds I will buy a govs tag and you bet if I buy one that is out of state I will most likely hire a guide.

I'm willing to bet that if any of you on here draw a premium tag you will have friends and/or family helping out. Is that any different then having spotters out there that work for a guide? Go to Ely Nevada on an elk hunt! You will see almost every camp has 5-10 people helping, and you can bet there not there just to help pack out a bull.

Think of it this way. You own a business and you can't produce all by yourself, what do you do...you hire employees to help produce. Right? Is a guide hiring subguides or spotters not the same as a landscaper hiring more laborers to get a job done? The pressure to produce year after year is a huge weight on these guides shoulders. The client spent more then most people will make in several years for one hunting experience! Don't you think that the client wants the best bang for his buck?

What do you think of landowner tags? Someone paid several thousand dollars for a tag, they didn't draw that tag out of the general pool so is that not as hardcore as a drawn tag?

I guarantee if most of you had the money to buy a gov's tag you would! And if like most of the people who buy the gov's tag, you wouldn't have 3 months to dedicate to scouting/hunting because you need to make sure your business stays afloat. So hiring a guide would be the best way to insure you didn't donate several hundred thousand dollars without harvesting a trophy animal.

Plus you can't take away from the animal just because it was harvested by a govs tag. A 240" buck is a 240" buck no matter who shot it.
 
CDM7 look at all the guides now days there are always alot of people helpin but sayin 20 guys is a little much what about the hulk hogan buck no guide a bunch of people helpin you need to remove head from ass are you a guide if you are maybe try this strategie out cuz ive never heard of you mossback knows how to kill big stuff they are great did they kill your animal on the book cliffs is that why your upset cuz i know they wouldnt do anything unethical D moss would lose everything if they played like that
 
Your talking about a handful of deer killed in each state each year being hunted this way. It is not easy to kill giant bucks even with the gov tag in your pocket. If a guy spends thousands of dollars on one tag for one deer and he gets to hunt any unit in the state. You think he should do it with his hunting partner or just himself. How does one or two guys cover multiple units good enough to find a giant buck if he is hiding there. I don't think that these hunts are changing hunting its only few deer. I think it is every bit as much a trophy. And may be a trophy to more than just the hunter.
The business of hunting started when a guy from the city decided he wanted to kill a big game animal and didn't know how to do it. Someone had to guide that guy and so on!!
To each his own and have fun doing it thats all that matters!!
JC
Colorado Hunting Consultants LLC
www.cohunthelp.com
 
All I can say is if you guys are going to blast another guy for legally harvesting an animal, and hiring a guide service to do it, then you better ask yourself if you are using any type of information that wasn't garnered from your own hard work. According to some of the plicks on here, any type of info garnered from someone else means that animal is illegitimate, and doesn't count. Having your buddy show you where he saw the a nice Buck, is that same thing as having a guide it for you.




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The difference is in the story that will be told-

DIY (the hard way)- I scouted the buck for several days making several trips into the bucks area. Hunting season finally came and after a couple of days hunting I was able to harvest the TROPHY.

DIY (the lucky way)- I had been driving around the hills all week hoping to spot a decent buck, when out of nowhere this giant buck ran acrossed the road in front of me. I jumped out and dropped the TROPHY.

GUIDED- The guide knew the area we hunted all day for a couple days seeing many deer I was holding out for something better, and it finally happened we located a TROPHY buck and harvested him.

TEAM GUIDED FOR THE RICH- I waited all year for the guide to send me film of a trophy I approved of. Finally on the last week of November when all the bucks had lost their common sense one of the 20 spotters I was paying 200$ a day had filmed a true TROPHY. So without hesitation I called my pilot flew into the closest airport to the buck, and was in my guides truck 12 hours later. 2 hours after my guide meet me he told me," we've got the buck bedded right over this hill". So I walked over the hill and sure enough there he was BANG! Another TROPHY for my collection. Most of these guys dont even look excited.

Granted the story is tainted. My point is the TROPHY is in the eye of the beholder. What is B&C willing to call a trophy? What story would you rather tell?
TO EACH THEIR OWN, AT THE END OF THE DAY WE ARE ALL HUNTERS RIGHT.
 
slcmuley, You left one out;

The Utah Way, After drawing my tag a bunch of friends and family soon agreed to help me on my hunt. Opening day, quality animals were spotted in several locations but i was always several canyons over, unable to get there. Finally, one morning, a buddy of mine friends called me to say that he had a trophy animal pegged and it was still there when i soon arrived. Great hunt with friends and family!!
 
>Cue in the horse JB.

lmmfao....I finally get it..so here it is...lol

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great post/pic, thanks for sharing

JB
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So 30-30 can G in your equation be your grandpa, dad or uncle?

Marc

1 Corinthians 2:2
 
Ok there trash220 I just removed head from ass and found out where your head is you must be one of those guys that prays every night hoping D MOSS will make you one of his little spotters all as I can say is a guide consists of one having spotters is like a pak of wolves bringing down a sheep what ever happend to fair chase........
 
He paid for the tag, the deer is dead, beyond that there is no points to discuss, of course most of us don't like it esspecially if you've went 6 or 7 years without killing a buck just to see 20 different deer on the computer and in magazines killed on these type of hunts. You just hope that the locater of the buck draws the next year and can't find one worth shooting :)
 
.....YAWN......

------------------------------------------------------
"Yeah, I'll shoot him"
 
No you are not way off. Money buys anything. Even a trophy buck. Hats off to these guys that can pay the money for a trophy animal. But also, we as hunters need to be able to find that personal satisfaction of harvesting a trophy animal. The scouting time, you spend whether it be alone or with friends, the camping experience, or what ever it may be, we all need to enjoy the moment. Whether its a trophy or just to experience the great outdoors. These great experiences are what it is all about!!!To be able to tell your grandkids about that big 4 point that got away. These are the things that keep me coming back for more!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-23-09 AT 04:07PM (MST)[p] Jealous people with little tiny minds, hiding behind fake names. Since when was it you alls business how and when someone hunts. I see hundreds of beer drinkin road huntin slobs who deserve much less respect than someone with a Gov tag permit. Who just happended to donate 200K to wildlife and their habitat. Get over it people or pitch your pup tent on the steps of the capitol and change the laws.
CDM4, I feel for you brother. Going through life with so much hate for good people you have never in your life met. It must cause you such pain.

Merry christmas! To ALL!
--------------------------------------

"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
No hatred here. Keep the process legal and keep the $'s from these tags going to the right improvements. After that the rest is opinions and all are valid to some degree. Most would like to harvest a deer of this magnitude, including me and I have the money to buy a tag like this but won't, however I will buy a tag via a landowner or outfitter so that I can ensure I have one somewhere every year. For me I just want to hunt and I enjoy different areas so my goal is to hunt in all western states at least once. I have also harvested many fine bucks DIY and passed up thousands. We all hunt in our own ways just like we all choose a variety of things everyday, so I suppose that this method of killing a "trophy" is ok but just doesn't work for me. I want to look at the wall and see my trophy in a different light!

Jazz
 
theres a difference in showing someone a good area so they can hunt them selves and paying a guide to do everything.
do you use binos in your uncles honey hole? do you plan a stalk? do you field dress your own game?

There is also a difference in a honey hole with alot of
somewhat decent bucks and an area with only a couple of deer that are monsters that you would need to spend alot of time scouting just to know they are there.
 
To answer the original question.

The level an animal is a trophy is in the eyes of the person that killed it and how they killed it.

I have more pride in animals I took with a lot of sweat equity involved and less in those that I lucked into. You can have either type of hunt guided or unguided.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-30-09 AT 08:30PM (MST)[p]Its all a conspiracy, The fewer trophy deer you see the more they become wanted like finding a lost treasure. If they were everywhere we wouldnt want them as much, what better way to revenue money, the state knows this thats why we have just enough trophies to make the people pay, trophy bucks could be all over but the state wouldnt make as much revenue if they did that why pay for points and LE and bid on gov tags land owner tags nonres.When we could shoot one our back yard.

they have managed the deer population to perfection for the real objective REVENUE. while us tax payin retards sit and bicker how to fix it. it aint gonna get fixed its going to stay the same while monster bucks will cost monster bucks, If the state really wanted to get deer to the objective they claim they want THEY WOULD! We should not praise these people for paying 250,000.00 for a deer tag it just raises the value sorta speak hunting will be a rich mans sport only welcome to the future. And we let it happen If the guys with money really wanted to donate they would buy land just for deer to winter
not donating to dwr to buy trucks and tracking devises to see how long it takes a deer to starve to death I know i got my head up my arse but just think about it. Ya dont hear much about I guy who shoots a little buck deer out of season for meat to feed his family, but if someone poaches a trophy buck
we want justice, witch we should. I am just saying we have been brain washed with out knowing it. we should all have the opportunity to harvest a monster buck. and if more of them were around maybe the youth would get involved instead of wearing there sisters pance and wearing black makeup watching fags on MTV.
 
"I am just saying we have been brain washed with out knowing it. we should all have the opportunity to harvest a monster buck. and if more of them were around maybe the youth would get involved instead of wearing there sisters pance and wearing black makeup watching fags on MTV."

Could not understand most of your post. But, not having a trophy buck for every kid is not why kids are not hunting.

I have taken a lot of kids hunting the first time and they almost always just want to get a buck. They dont care about how big it is.

Kids are not hunting because they are not raised to. Adults need to go out of their way to take kids hunting even if they are not their kid.
 
Couldnt be further from the truth.

My kids are not hooked on video games or TV. Not sure where you got the impression that they are into MTV. Dont think it has ever been on in the house. In fact the TV does not go on if there is daylight outside.
 
I dont pay a nanny to watch my kid when i am home, i dont pay somebody to mow my lawn or shovel snow, i dont pay somebody to work on my house, and i dont pay somebody to tell me where to hunt, how to hunt, and which animal to hunt. useing money to get an advantage over real hunters defeats the purpose of why we are there in the first place. its a great story when handicapped or elderly people are guided to animals in places where they could not physically go , but is it a great story when some rich !?$% gets a chariot ride to a b@c animal?
 

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