Managment Buck....Really?

Muley_73 · Dec 2, 2009

Here is question for the MM crew. Are most of the bucks being harvested on the Managment hunts really inferior bucks? No doubt I have seen some that look to be true managment buck, however most I have seen make me wonder.

I really started to wonder after reading the story of the cover buck for Muley Crazy this month. It stated that buck three years ago was a main frame 3x3 with dropper on one side. A trophy managment deer for sure! Yet three years later it is 267 inch giant! How many of the bucks are we shooting on the Henrys and Pauns that could turn out like that? I believe you can harvest managment bucks on a highly controlled unit ie private ranch, this enables you to true watch the developement and age of the bucks being marked as managment bucks. I think these hunts could do more damage than good with the current situation? Lets hear some input from that gallery.

JakeH · Dec 2, 2009

They will do more good then bad, I think the buck in MC was the exception, most bucks are not going to go through that much of a change.

Now they just need to have one in the book cliffs.

Jake H. SHED OR DEAD IT DONT MATTER TO ME!!!

ElmerFudd · Dec 3, 2009

Main bad thing that might come out of it is someone could notice it really has an extra point or something after it is on the ground and be temped to look for another. Point restrictions in other areas (usually a minimum number per side, the other way) have lead to more animals left to rot. Other than that, it's a good idea.

cannonball · Dec 3, 2009

A study was done back East with a university there on whitetails and with the proper feed two and three points grew magnificent horns. Wouldn't you think whitetail horn growth would be similar to Mule deer horn growth. This study was done in a fenced area over several years, not the by guess and by golly way we do things out West here.

I'm not against the management hunt, but I think a lot of future trophies are getting shot off with this hunt.

Elmacho · Dec 3, 2009

don't even compare whitetails to muleys....different class of animal.....ha ha.

Maybe if they did a chaining across the unit and made food plots, there wouldn't be any more "management" deer.....they'd all be massive beasts with horn galore.....just a thought...

Daxter · Dec 3, 2009

By the time a mule deer buck reaches 4 years old if he isn't a 4x4 chances are that he will never be a trophy buck. The whitetail 2 and 3 points were probably yearlings, maybe 2 year olds. I strongly doubt that bucks that aren't decent 4x4's as 3 or at the latest 4 year olds will ever be much. I think the management hunts are a great tool to keep buck to doe ratios at an appropriate level and still allow management for trophy quality bucks. Nutrition and age play a role, but genetics is a big factor too, some bucks just don't have it.

Dax

BrowningRage · Dec 3, 2009

"How many of the bucks are we shooting on the Henrys and Pauns that could turn out like that?"

Well... We know that there are exactly 10 management tags per year for each unit... (If I remember correctly) So there are that many "management deer" possibly harvested. The chances that harvesting only 10 deer out of such trophy rich units is going to hurt the population is pretty minimal I think...

I believe the hope for these management tags was that the "management deer" harvested would be at their most mature age and still display characteristics of a "management buck". Though all deer harvested may not be 6-9 years old, the odds that a 3x3 will turn into 267 inches in 3 years is the same as harvesting a 267 inch buck at all... Very low.

Great thread question...

Muley_73 · Dec 3, 2009

I agree that most bucks will be showing signs by the time they are 4 yrs old. However I believe that alot of the deer being shot are nice 3 yr old 4x3. These buck look huge to hunters not use to hunting mature deer. Especialy all swelled up in the rut.

The Henrys did only give out 10 tags but the Pauns gave out 45 or 50 tags total. If we are really doing it to keep buck to doe ratio down why not just give more regular tags (which I am firmly against on the Pauns)?

When whitetails are harvested as managment bucks they usually are going off of the age of the deer, not just strickly the horn configuration. I think we are hurting the overall numbers of mature bucks on these units and not gain a whole lot in return. We know what we are losing but we are guess at what the benifits might be.

Dikndirt · Dec 3, 2009

My wife had a pauns. management tag and I am firmly in favor of the concept of a management hunt...however it will only be successful if those with tags understand and harvest what a true management buck really is. We were hunting a 30" 3x4 that had reached its full potential. We were not successful in harvesting [I that word]
this particular buck. My wife did however shoot a 2.5 year old 18 inch 3x4 that may or may not turn into something decent. I suspect that more than a few younger bucks with possible potential were taken. Our experience was that the hunt should have been a little later and a 8 day hunt instead of 5 days. Not that great of hunt to burn her 8 points on. BTW the pauns aint what it used to be!

silverstatehunter · Dec 3, 2009

Unlike Utah Nevada doesn't have a management hunt but I really wish it did, This year I must have seen 5-7 24inch plus forked horns and a ton of big 3 points. We ended up taking this big 27inch 3 point at the end of the season, but this deer should have been at least a 4x4.

The entire season I saw 5 4x4's only one of which was a beast. If fish and game could regulate it properly maybe only allowing 20inch plus forked horns to be taken I think it would really help out. I do believe that the management hunts should have a tighter restriction because I am sure there are some potential huge deer shot ever year.

Jacob Menath
Menath Outdoor Insurance
www.Outdoor-Insurance.com

hornhunter247 · Dec 3, 2009

these hunts are doing far more good than bad! over just the last 2 years hunting the kiabab I have seen 5 huge 3 points to every 1 4 point or better. and people pass on these huge bucks because of their lacking points. one last year was an easy 34-35" monster 3. 90% of these bucks will never grow another point no matter how wet a year we have! the kiabab desperately needs a management hunt, and they need one fast! the big 4's are getting wiped out leaving the 3's to breed! id personaly love to draw one of these tags and wouldn't hesitate to shoot a small 3 in the name of management!

cannonball · Dec 3, 2009

Dikndirt, Did you see many TROPHY buck that were not management buck during that hunt or were they shot out?

Is there anyone else on the Pauns management hunt that would like to share what they saw for Trophy buck and their frustration not being able to shot them?

flycrewsupe · Dec 3, 2009

Arizona needs a management hunt as well. I spent 10 days hunting 13-B and saw many fowled up bucks. 30 in 3 by 5 with forks going forward, 3 by club buck, these bucks will never be shot. A perfect hunt for a youth or management.

ismith · Dec 3, 2009

Sorry folks but management hunts do little if any good. MAYBE if you are managing whitetails on a ranch in Texas. But really, do you guys really think a big 3x3 is never going to sire a 4x4 and vice versa? I think you guys are missing the other half of the equation, the does.

greysriver · Dec 3, 2009

great response smith, i agree with your perspective in regards to the management buck hunts.

muleyhunter413 · Dec 3, 2009

The does have not been brought up because we have no way of regulating which ones have the bad genes. We do however, have a way of seeing the bucks that have the less desirable antler growth. I am in favor of a management hunt. Just don't give out TOO many tags. I think we need to do something to move a few people through the point system.

ismith · Dec 3, 2009

"The does have not been brought up because we have no way of regulating which ones have the bad genes."

Which is exactly why management hunts wont work for muleys. You could kill every 3 point buck in the Pauns and it still wouldnt work. It wont work until you can figure out a way to kill of the 3 point genotype does. Until then, your just moving people though the point system allowing them to shoot subtrophy bucks that may or may not be mature.

Packout · Dec 3, 2009

The management hunts are NOT meant to change "genetics". They are meant to shoot more bucks while protecting "trophy" quality. I guess they could have called them "Cull Hunts", but management just sounds better.

-------------------------
www.sagebasin.com
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JakeH · Dec 3, 2009

OK I think most of us know that you cant shoot out the 3 point gene....BUT that is not the purpose of this hunt.

Let me lay this out for you.

I will use the bookcliffs as an exsample because that is what I know. (even though they dont currently have a managment hunt out there, they need one.)

In the bookcliffs they give out 320 rifle tags (last year), There are alot of people that go out there thinking they are going to find a 170-190 class buck and hunt and hunt and never find a buck that they want, this whole time they are passing on mature 3x3, 2x3 and 3x4s bucks not giveing them a second thought because they are not 4x4's now there are alot of small 4x4 young bucks out there and is what happens is they get to the end of there hunt or start getting worred and they shoot one of the small 4x4s just so they can say they got a 4x4.

Now lets say you took 1/3 of the tags and made them managment buck tags thats 106 tags(they cant add more on top of what they already give out because they are giveing out too many any ways in my oppion) now you are makeing sure that a large number of 4x4 bucks (approx 106) that would have been shot are not and giveing them a chance to grow and become big bucks witch will increase trophy quallity of the herd.

Also this should not be a perminant thing, they should do it for 3-5 years and then evaluate whether it is still needed and reduce the number of managment tags that are given, because in a few years of this I think you will have people out there shooting yearlings, and 2 year old bucks that havent had a chance to see what they will become because most of the older mature managment bucks will have been shot out.

This is my oppion, I think they will do way more good than bad.

Jake H. SHED OR DEAD IT DONT MATTER TO ME!!!

Dikndirt · Dec 3, 2009

In response to cannonballs question...yes we did see some excellent non-management bucks, in three days we looked over maybe 15 total mature bucks with 3 of them being 180 plus and another 5-6 being young 4x4's with good potential. The rut just hadn't got going then and most bucks were still alone or in small bachelor groups. The weather was very hot and dry for november and 5 days were not enough. I also think that the regular rifle hunt was difficult and a good number of the top end management bucks were taken then.

muleyhunter413 · Dec 3, 2009

ismith, I don't belive that the management hunt is there to erradicate the genes of the three point. It might knock the numbers down a bit and that is a bonus. It will give people a chance to kill a buck and move them throught the system. If you don't want to hunt it then don't put in for it. As long as they don't give out too high of a number of tags then they will be a positive thing IMO.

Dikndirt · Dec 3, 2009

ismith, I am not a biologist but I would think that a big mature 4x4 or better will sire a high percentage of quality offspring regardless of the doe that he breeds with. Doesn't the healthy superior doe instinctively try to breed with the highest quality buck available ? Enlighten me if you know.

deerbedead · Dec 3, 2009

I live on the Paunsaugunt, and participated in a small way in the management hunts. I was on the list of "contacts" to help hunters find their way around and if needed guide one or two of them.

I also operate a full time taxidermy studio their, and was able to see several of the deer taken on the management hunt.

I also talked to other guides, and to a guy that was directly involved with putting the management hunt in place, and who also spent some time at the DWR checkpoint during the 5 days of the hunt.

All involved say the hunt was a success. The DWR was pleasantly surprised by the amount of older age class bucks harvested, that were truly ugly management type material. There were a handfull of young 3 point deer killed, and this is NOT what the hunt is designed for, but they were legal kills. Not enough of them to cause alarm. All the bucks I saw were good bucks to be rid of. One of them was a cactus buck still in velvet, 2x3. No sense in feeding this type of deer. The other bucks were good solid 3's or 3x4's from 20" to 26" outside spread. Only heard of one 30" buck coming through the check station. The guy at the station was stoked at the bucks coming through. He said he was way happy with the type of bucks taken. He even said the DWR was thinking about doubling the tags and making two seasons for next year. This is strictly second hand info so don't go into panic mode, but it's from a good source. Also they are talking about pushing the hunt deeper into Nov so the deer can settle a bit and the rut can kick in more. Good plan if you ask me.

As for you guys that say you can't manage a herd because the does are 50% of the equation....... I have one thing to say. You are right! But, you can manage the other 50%, and to take out a buck with ugly antlers will mean more chance a buck with better antler genetics will get the chance to breed the does the other buck would have bred. The problem with letting ugly bucks breed is that the offspring will contain the genetics of the ugly buck, and if the females are bred to another ugly buck two years down the road, the probability of getting ugly offspring is much higher that if you took the ugly buck out of the equation. I know this is splitting hairs, and you guys will begin quoting Valerius Geist to prove me wrong, but that's alright.

I wouldn't burn a lot of points on these hunts, but it's a great way to have a good hunt with a kid, or someone that could benefit from a little easier type hunt. Great way to learn about deer too. I think I'll have my 14 year old apply if she wants to.

That's my $1.50 worth for whatever it's worth. You know with this economy it probably aint worth much!

Deer Be Dead

brownie · Dec 3, 2009

Well maybe they'll work in California! We've got a problem with our late hunt's. G-3 has been in going for over thirty years, and thirty years of harvesting the best bucks on the winter range, in the rut takes it's toll. My wife has the tag this year, and I've been scouting alot. I've seen as many as forty bucks in a day, mostly mature animals, but only a handful that had four points on both sides. The majority of the bucks have been 3x3's, and the've been mature. The same is happening in the junior hunt at Round Valley. Maybe I'm screwed up but I don't think rut hunts are worth a darn if you shoot nothing but the best over a long period of time, a management hunt might be the answer here in Cali. if they keep these rut hunts going. Thanks, Doug.

Muley_73 · Dec 3, 2009

deerbedead,
Thanks for the feedback. You are one of the voices I would trust in that unit. I will stand corrected if my opinion is not matching yours! I have been thinking of putting in my sons for this hunt also. Any chance to hunt on the Pauns is great, I had a great time with my dad this year on the rifle hunt and alot of that had to do with help from conch and yourself!

Here is an added question for deerbedead. If part of the managment plan is to not feed "ugly" buck, why not tweek the guide lines to say any buck in the velvet is a legal managment deer. I know they would kill some big old cactus bucks, but you would also knock out alot of ugly cactus bucks. You would also leave more feed for a productive deer be it a doe or buck.

ismith · Dec 3, 2009

"That's my $1.50 worth for whatever it's worth. You know with this economy it probably aint worth much!"

My guess is it will be worth $3.00 early next year.

deerbedead · Dec 3, 2009

LAST EDITED ON Dec-04-09 AT 00:10AM (MST)[p]Muley, to answer your question about the cactus bucks. They really don't do much good in the herd, and any of you guys that have been around the Pauns much have seen quite a few of them. The problem with whacking them all is that a select few of them can and do grow into true monsters. In fact, I have a photo of a cactus buck that was taken during this summer that is a big wide nontypical that almost anyone would drop the hammer on, anywhere they hunt.

That's why you can't whack em' and stack em', because there's a legitimate chance some will grow into a high scoring trashy toad.

I can think of 3 bucks taken in the last 15 years off the Pauns that gross score over 240" and one of them that Dave Anderson and I guided went well over 300". Bruce Hubbard's hunter took a buck that I believe scored around 280+ if I remember correctly. So I truly think we can't just take em all out.

Most of them are pretty ugly though, and would be great management deer in my opinion. The good thing is that they don't breed and pass along the cactus buck genes. I know I have my theory on why we have so many here on the Pauns, but it's just a S.W.A.G. (scientific, wild assed guess)

Here's a photo of the cactus buck we helped into the happy hunting grounds.

DeerBeDead

ismith · Dec 3, 2009

Dikndirt,
It has been my (limited)experience that does will breed the buck thats with them when they are ready to breed.
If the hunt is being used to cull some less desireable bucks and get some folks to burn off some points then it sounds like a great opportunity. Im happy to know a Texas whitetail management operation isnt taking root in Utah. I am also relieved I still have the option of not applying for a management deer tag for the gracious soul that pointed that out to me.

cherrypicker · Dec 3, 2009

Jake,I know you've spent enough time out there to know that a management hunt may help in the southern portion of the bc but in the n. it may take some "transplants". IT's 3x3, 3X4 or crab clawed 4x4 for life.I hope I'm wrong because I had the best hunt ever, hunting 26"-32" 3x3 N' scouting for 2 months some 4X4

cannonball · Dec 4, 2009

What I would really like to see before we start going overboard with management buck hunts is to see the DWR tag some management buck and track them for a few years and see what the horn growth does. They could certainly tag them where it wouldn't ruin a mount for a sportsmen's trophy.

Is a little scientific work unreasonable to ask?

257Tony · Dec 4, 2009

>The management hunts are NOT meant
>to change "genetics". They
>are meant to shoot more
>bucks while protecting "trophy" quality.
> I guess they could
>have called them "Cull Hunts",
>but management just sounds better.
>
>
>-------------------------
>www.sagebasin.com
>-------------------------

Finally somebody who actually knows what the hell is going on. Great post.

cannonball · Dec 4, 2009

>>The management hunts are NOT meant
>>to change "genetics". They
>>are meant to shoot more
>>bucks while protecting "trophy" quality.
>> I guess they could
>>have called them "Cull Hunts",
>>but management just sounds better.
>>
>>
>>-------------------------
>>www.sagebasin.com
>>-------------------------
>
>Finally somebody who actually knows what
>the hell is going on.
>Great post.
>
>

Really!! I thought the accomplishment would be two-fold over a period of time (to an extent anyhow).

huntinfanatic · Dec 4, 2009

i spent two days prior to and the entire 5 days of the hunt out on the paunsaugunt. i was very suprised how many true management bucks i saw compared to trophy bucks. the 3 pt. genetic is very strong out there. i saw about a dozen velvet bucks that all qualified for the hunt and needed to be taken most were 2x2 or 2x3's. during the week i was out there i saw about 150 bucks of which only 5 i would consider to be in the trophy category (180" plus). in my opinion they need to double the tags and get rid of the big 2 pts. and 3 pts. to try and get the 4 pt. genetics back. for every 4 pt. i saw there were 5 3 pts.

greysriver · Dec 4, 2009

Jake, you make some good points, but I would have to disagree that people are passing on "mature 3x3's" in the books. I believe they are passing on 3 year old deer (at the oldest). i have hunted and guided on the books for years, and yes there is a lot of 3x3's and 2x4's but, do you remember when they shut the unit down for 5 years? the same genetics existed, and if you were lucky enough to have drawn a tag during the first few years when they opened it back up, you would be singing a different song. It comes down to letting them age (in my opinion). I am not in favor of killing these bucks because someone thinks they have bad genetics.

thanks, I don't mean to in any way be confrontational with this post!!

257Tony · Dec 6, 2009

>i spent two days prior to
>and the entire 5 days
>of the hunt out on
>the paunsaugunt. i was very
>suprised how many true management
>bucks i saw compared to
>trophy bucks. the 3 pt.
>genetic is very strong out
>there. i saw about a
>dozen velvet bucks that all
>qualified for the hunt and
>needed to be taken most
>were 2x2 or 2x3's. during
>the week i was out
>there i saw about 150
>bucks of which only 5
>i would consider to be
>in the trophy category (180"
>plus). in my opinion they
>need to double the tags
>and get rid of the
>big 2 pts. and 3
>pts. to try and get
>the 4 pt. genetics back.
>for every 4 pt. i
>saw there were 5 3
>pts.
So how many 3 points do you have to kill to "get the pt genetics back"? All of them? And what about the Does? Surely they must have something to do with it? Point is, in a public land unit you are never going to be able to implement a hunt to get rid of a certain genetic trait, too much land, too many animals, too many factors. This isn't a high fence hunt in Texas with purchased genetics.....

ElmerFudd · Dec 6, 2009

Wonder how antler configuration really relates to survival of the species? Is visually stimulating antlers really a big deal, or even a superior survival characteristic to the deer? No matter what, the amount of management tags issued isn't going to make a dent. And you see more big 3x3's in the limited hunts like the Henry's or Goodale because more bucks live to get to be old enough to be big 3x3's

Doubt Hunters chosing 4x4's over the years makes any difference. If the harvest is low enough, it does not matter. And if the harvest is high enough(like OTC), it does not matter either because you are shooting everything too young to tell.

BTW, I took this guy in CO in 05 standing right next to a maybe possible book 4x4 because he was heavier, wider, and more unique. Managemnt played no thought in my choice, just thought he was cooler looking.

257Tony · Dec 6, 2009

>Wonder how antler configuration really relates
>to survival of the species?
>Is visually stimulating antlers really
>a big deal, or even
>a superior survival characteristic to
>the deer? No matter what,
>the amount of management tags
>issued isn't going to make
>a dent. And you see
>more big 3x3's in the
>limited hunts like the Henry's
>or Goodale because more bucks
>live to get to be
>old enough to be big
>3x3's

Doubt Hunters chosing 4x4's
>over the years makes any
>difference. If the harvest is
>low enough, it does not
>matter. And if the harvest
>is high enough(like OTC), it
>does not matter either because
>you are shooting everything too
>young to tell.
>
>BTW, I took this guy in
>CO in 05 standing right
>next to a maybe possible
>book 4x4 because he was
>heavier, wider, and more unique.
>Managemnt played no thought in
>my choice, just thought he
>was cooler looking.
>
>

Good choice Elmer! That's a way cool buck, I love that yard stick G2.

Camper_A1 · Dec 6, 2009

I agree with JakeH there should be a management hunt for the Books, my wife had a tag this year and we saw alot more 3x3's and 3x4's than 4x4's. I also think the management hunt should be later during the rut if you really want to kill the older mature bucks.

scoutdog5 · Dec 6, 2009

The idea that culling less desirable bucks from a deer herd in order to improve the quality of bucks has been around for a long time, particularly among whitetail hunters/operations.

Over the past several years, there has been some very interesting research done on captive whitetail herds, using genetic testing of every animal in the herd. Here are some of their findings:

1. Unlike elk, when a doe chooses a buck to breed with, that buck will spend the next 24-72 hours exclusively with that doe, ignoring other does that come into heat.

2. The average no. of does bred by a buck was 5, maximum was 9.

3. 20-25% of the fawns born to one doe had different fathers. The only explanation researchers cam come up with is that while the mature buck is with a different doe, a smaller buck gets the chance to breed another doe that is in heat, then the mature buck finishes up with doe no. 1, and returns to doe no. 2 while she is still in heat, does his work, and two fawns are born with different fathers. This is a theory, and not a result of the research, but appears to be the most likely cause.

4. Average conception date is earlier as the age of the buck gets older. Same result that Starkey Experimental Forest research found for elk in two separate studies.

5. Of fawns born late, or in poor habitats, only 10% were bred as 1.5 year old yearlings. Fawns that were born early in great habitats had a 60-70% pregnancy rate as yearlings.

Virtually all of these studies done on captive whitetail herds concluded that it was not possible to contol the gene pool of a whitetail herd through culling of inferior bucks. Far better to focus on having mature bucks available to breed does during the first estrus cycle, and provide great habitat to increase the number of yearling does that conceive.

Whether or not any of this applies to Mule Deer is an unknown, although as research is done on multiple species a lot of similar results are showing up. As long as there are good numbers of mature bucks left in the population for breeding, I don't see any big problem with thees so called management buck hunts.

Scoutdog