Doe herds

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There has been so much discussion about how we manage and kill bucks-unit size-antler restrictions-changing seasons and tag numbers-and on and on. The best way to improve buck hunting is to increase the doe herd. I hunt the Utah south unit where the doe numbers are down and not noticeably increasing even after many years without doe hunts. There are no breeding problems so the only reason the non hunted doe herd is not rapidly increasing is death loss from factors other than hunting foremost of which is predation and winter kill. My field experience is that predation is up considerably but not the only limiting factor in herd increase. Winters have not been severe but winter range quality is down. The south hasn't lost winter range like the north with it's rapidly growing population. Our winter range is lost to heavy cattle grazing. In my area, cattle have eaten the public land winter range before the deer (and elk) get there. I don't advocate eliminating cattle grazing, just cutting it back to more reasonable numbers. I also think the lion population should be reduced via more tags.
Only so many grazers (wild and domestic) can live in an area. Boulder Mountain is a good example of dividing up the grazing. I understand from reliable sources that a deal was cut with cattle and sheep grazers when elk were to be reintroduced to the mountain. The elk herd objective would be held to 1500 even though the unit is huge and comparable to the adjacent Fish Lake unit with an objective of 4500 elk. As the elk herd has grown statewide, cattle grazing has remained about the same which means that elk are eating what used to be winter deer food. I don't think many hunters would advocate reducing the elk herd but many could support reducing domestic grazing. Ranchers constantly complain of poor profits. Why should they be granted the bulk of the available forage?
 
I totally agree,
alot of areas like wolfcreek soapstone, millcreek, get hammered by over grazing first by cattle then the mountain maggetts, The sheep leave nothing for the deer and elk the ranchers start at the bottom then work there way to the top
then work there way back down in th fall sheep do not leave anything for the deer and elk in millcreek or soapstone areas I am suprised the elk survive in these units poachers are also
a big factor the dwr does know how many deer are poached
they dont even have a real number on how many deer are actually left
 
We also do not need elk in every unit. Our state and federal managers should put more effort into mulies.
 
Don't be so sure that ALL hunters support your position of reducing domestic cattle grazing. Do you eat beef? I thought so!

The point is the same people who are after cattle grazing are after YOUR hunting and gun bearing rights. Work for constructive solutions but stay on the "right size"

Jazz
 
>Don't be so sure that ALL
>hunters support your position of
>reducing domestic cattle grazing.
>Do you eat beef?
>I thought so!
>
>The point is the same people
>who are after cattle grazing
>are after YOUR hunting and
>gun bearing rights. Work
>for constructive solutions but stay
>on the "right size"
>
>Jazz



I am not saying we should go out an kill off all livestock
there is a unhealthy balance between
livestock and wildlife. yes I eat beef
but if I had to choose from nomore hunting deer or nomore eating beef? I believe I would not eat beef.
What would you choose?

As human population grows so does livestock
to support human consumption of beef
so more cattle and sheep are raised so more
land (feed) they consume
and compete with deer and elk.


When there is no more deer or elk left because
cattle are at full capacity to feed the human hunger
what good would rifles be? shoot retards like you!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-10 AT 11:25PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-10 AT 10:57?PM (MST)

My friend if you will look at cattle stocking rates in this country livestock numbers are FAR less,( especially sheep), than they were in the 50's, 60's and 70's. And there were FAR more deer with very few if any elk!!!!!!! So who's the damn retard!!! Get some facts right before you spout off!!!!!!
Jazz is right, there should be and always is constuctive management practices that can be implmented!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-10 AT 11:01PM (MST)[p]>My friend if you will look
 
Up until the 70's or somewhere right in there, Gov trappers, ranchers and sheep men were very hard on predators and birds of prey, so back during the glory days of deer hunting you might want to give them a little credit for helping populations along! Today we have no such help, but we do have considerably more elk, with higher populations of predators and birds of prey. And give me a break when a hunter kills a deer, that deer is DEAD, no longer in the herd, hunters do effect deer popuations!!!!!
 
I never said hunters do not effect the herd. there is alot less
land to graze than in the 50s and 60s due to development and highways that cut off migration paths.
back then you wouldnt go strait to jail for killing a mountain lion like you would now.
areas in the uintas are full of cattle and sheep and preditors
few elk and few deer and very little feed left when the sheep are done. I know cattlemen and sheeperds work hard and get little. I mean no disrespect I am just saying it as I see it
livestock effect wildlife when there stock eat up all the feed
just in certian areas not the whole state.
 
Cattle and sheep no doubt reduce the quality of winter range for deer/elk and its sad to say that mulies don't stand a chance in this fight. Most (not all) ranchers need to be more willing and incentivised to forgive some of there grazing rights. Timing and pulling the cattle off before they overgraze is critical. I come from a ranching background and I've never seen nor heard of a decision made based on whats best for the local wildlife.

I think I'd rather be on the "other side" and if they take my hunting rights away...I still did the right thing. Photography is probably be cheaper anyways.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-07-10 AT 11:18PM (MST)[p]I come from both sides of the fence, so let me run this by you. "Seeing how livestock numbers have stayed relatively the same and the elk herd has grown , the elk are eating what used to be deer food. I don't think many ranchers would advocate reducing stocking rates of livestock , but many could support reducing elk numbers. Hunters constantly complain about how the deer hunting sucks , why should the elk be granted the extra available forage!"
I've been involved in BLM and Forest Service meetings for along time and not once have they allowed for an increase in stocking rates, in fact WE have been reduced by over 30%. Let me take your livelihood and land values so some guy can go hunting for a couple weeks out of the year, and then have to deal with hunters(some not all) leaving gates open, cutting fences, shooting livestock, etc, etc, etc.
I don't think ranchers should be willing to give up grazing rights, but be willing to implement better grazing plans to assist wildlife when and where need be.
Let me ask you this, were are the hunters willing to stop numbers wise. So we take more cattle off the range for more deer, then the elk numbers increase again, so do we take more livestock off? I don't think you'll get much participation from the livestock industry.
 

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