Outfitter Mindset

J

Jazz

Guest
So to begin with let me start by stating these facts. I have hunted with several different outfitters and I have hunted DIY most of my life. I choose to use outfitters at times becuase I love to hunt mule deer and I can't always draw a tag. Yes I put in for points in virtually every western state but as I get a little older I simply need access to tags and I don't want to "miss" the one thing I enjoy the very most. Please note that I said hunt and not kill. I have left my tag unpunched many times and I have also harvested many very good bucks.

So all that said I have had a few experiences with outfitters that I don't understand, including this fall. I understand "spot and stalk" well but this fall during very windy conditions the does (rut was on completely) were staying in small draws and canyons and were not coming out in the open. Due to the rut the better bucks were with the does in these areas with very few exceptions. The area was very accessible as any shooting would have still been within 300 yards or shorter. Due to my experience (yes I have made the mistake on bucks running away) I feel I could also make the decision to shoot or not shoot if we pushed the deer out.

The guide wouldn't leave the truck as he felt we would "push" the deer out of the area nor would he listen to any suggestions from me. We did push a few deer but I saw none of them go over about 500 yards before they went into another draw. Additionally my experience would suggest that by simply easing around in this country isn't particularly upsetting unless you do lots of shooting and run the deer that way, something that wouldn't have happened here as I was the "last" hunter on this ranch for the year.

So here is the question or dilema. The money has been paid and the outfitter won't listen or budge. Why not? Why won't you let an experienced hunter have input? Why won't you get out of the pickup and hunt? Why when you are told before booking that a person wants to hunt won't you be honest and say we will hunt by spot and stalk ONLY? As a hunt winds down why won't you TRY a different method when S&S isn't working?

I guess I am still naive about what some folks say over the phone. I try to be honest about what I'm looking for but I don't feel that is always the case with some outfitters. Now before anyone asks yes I have had some great hunts with some very fine outfitters and I will say they are first class people and hunters and I have left my tag unpunched with some of them and been very happy with the hunt.

Hopefully this will get a few constructive responses and maybe from an outfitter or two to help me understand the mindset.

Jazz
 
jazz as a guide I have a whatever it takes mindset. I have a very good friend of mine that hunted one of these types of hunts for elk in so nm a couple years back and the guide wouldn't hunt half the ranch because of some monster bull that wandered on the property and the owner didn't want killed. sounds like your landowner had the same ideas? next time try to get a diy landowner hunt. most of them will let you scout a little.
 
GREAT SUBJECT.....I TOO WILL BE GOING ON LESS OUTFITTED HUNTS. LET ME SAY I KNOW THAT THERE ARE NO PERFECT OUTFITTED HUNTS OUT THERE....THATS OK....NEVER WAS LOOKING FOR A PERFECT HUNT....JUST AN HONEST HUNT WOULD DO.
FOR ME THE PROBLEMS LIE IN COMMUNICATION BETWEEN OWNER & WHAT THE GUIDE WANTS TO DO, AFTER DOING MUCH HOMEWORK....THE OUTFITTER WILL TAKE YOUR MONEY GLADLY.....ONLY TO DOWN PLAY, DECEIVE YOU, LIE, OR MISLEAD YOU ABOUT CONDITIONS,ANIMAL NUMBERS, EQUIPMENT, GUIDES, OR HUNTING METHODS. I DONT GO ON MANY GUIDED HUNTS....BUT SOMETIMES THE LAW WILL DICTATE THAT FOR YOU. (CANADA FOR EXAMPLE).

I KNOW THAT THERE ARE MANY GOOD OUTFITTERS OUT THERE,I HAVE HUNTED WITH A FEW. I MOST RECENTLY HUNTED WITH SAWTOOTH OUTFITTERS IN BRITISH COLUMBIA (2009), THEY FALL INTO A SMALL GROUP OF OUTFITTERS I WOULD NOT REBOOK A HUNT WITH AGAIN.
IN THESE LEAN TIMES A LOT OF OUTFITTERS ARE LUCKY TO FIND CLIENTS....WHEN THEY DO....THEY NEED TO DELIVER .......YD.
 
Good thoughts so far. I'd typically rely on the guides decisions, but that's just because I don't want to create conflict or an argument, so it's just easier this way.

This thread did ignite some thoughts of mine though:

I've gone on 2 guided hunts; one in 2009 and one in 2008. Both were "spot and stalk" hunts. I didn't realize this would be "spot and stalk" from the truck. One was in the mountains of CO and the other was the eastern plains of CO. I believe the outfitters when they say that this is the most effective way to hunt these deer and cover the most ground. The hunt in 2009 in the mountains was an awesome hunt and I'd highly recommend these guys to anyone. I have great memories of this hunt and the outfitter was top notch. But truth be told, I'd like more of a physical hunt that still gave me good odds at a great buck. I'm considering a DIY hunt in a good unit in CO or trying to find an outfitter that may offer a bit more of a physical hunt. Any ideas or recommendations here?
 
Outfitting is like any other buisness, some are excellent like a five star resteraunt and others are like a fast food joint that still gives you tamato's and picles even though you wanted it without
 
Outfitters in marginal areas either become very good at telling prospective clients what they want to hear or they go out of business. I am a DIY guy who has hunted Canada once and Mexico once only because for the most part that is the only way to hunt either country. Both experiences left a bitter taste in my mouth. Possible problems in Mexico are well documented and I experienced all of them but I enjoyed the people, the weather and beauty of the area. The hunt in BC was also enjoyable as far as people, accomodations, and food etc but there was a severe lack of animals. Based on my research of the outfitter in BC I did not expect to harvest a buck. However I was hunting with friends who had not harvested muley bucks at that point in their careers and the outfitter said we should have no problem finding 140-160 bucks and everyone should have a chance in the first 3 days of 7 day hunt. Occasionally a monster was killed there but dont expect a chance at a buck over 170. Sounds believable to me. My experience in general areas in the states was most areas I can find decent bucks just usually harder to find bucks over 160. Went for the comraderie and the outside chance at a good buck but fun week long hunt with good friends harvesting some bucks and me probably eating my tag. Well long story short 7 day hunt I saw 4 bucks total after hunting my butt off none of my friends even saw a legal buck (4pt unit) guides were as green as they come. I hunted with outfitter who I think is actually a good cat hunter but never spotted a deer all week. I can understand an off year but to me a couple 140-150 class mulies would be an off year if you are selling hunts. Not to mention we were hunting along side resident hunters on public land in general season which was not portrayed by outfitter. I have since solved my problem of distrust of outfitters by only spending hunting money on landowner or unit tags. Then it is up to me to research the unit and if I dont have the success I desire I still feel good about the hunt and dont feel like I was misled or taken to areas where there is no game. However this game is tricky also with regards to the tag prices in Colorado going through the roof and 1 pt units selling for $3K. The tag brokers have golden tongues at times themselves but I have hunted several units in Colorado so I purchase tags based on my research and am not swayed by the sales pitch if they do not have a tag I want. I know this was a little off track but just wanted to put some thoughts and experiences out there.
 
Incorrect I spent lots of time on the phone with the outfitter and discussed that I like to get out and not just "sit" in the truck. He guaranteed me that the "badland" type area we would be hunting was perfect for just walking into but that we would have to be ready to decide and shoot without the benefit of looking through a spotting scope for hours. Additionally I have researched hunts all over the west with dozens of outfitters and I have checked with references, although on the most recent hunt the "ranch" had been shut down for three years and the outfitter was in his first year. Not sure about your response at all. The others are helpful and respectful of the "facts" that I laid out, yours was not.
 
Romulus,

Thanks for the reply it was very good and I appreciate the time you spent on it.

Jazz
 
Losthuntr,

I understand your answer but when I go to a 5 star restaurant I expect that level as is the case at fast food. Either are fine but I want the honesty about it before I make my choice and when I do go to either type I expect to have input into what I want to eat and not have the waiter telling me what I HAVE to eat.

Jazz
 
Muleymaddness,

Sorry I really don't have any. I agree with you completely and I like the same type of hunt where at times you get out and walk at little more to areas that you can still S&S from. I do know that in the eastern plains of CO I was able to do this some with one outfitter but not enough though. Ironically I also hear all the time in my research conversations that most of the "hunters" are not physically capable of walking very far. In some cases I have heard that comment right at the camp/lodge, etc. about the "guys" that were here last week and then when I suggest we hike a little they say no. I guess the best of the "physical" type hunts will be DIY if you draw and tag.

Jazz
 
Hornhunter247,

Thanks for the reply. You raised "another" interesting point and I'm sure it happens regularly where areas are left alone due to a bigger animal being saved for a different hunter. I believe I encountered that once as well and of course I didn't go back.

If you have any suggestions on DIY landowner options I would be interested in hearing about those. I have not encountered many that sound all that great.

Jazz
 
Mr. Jazz, very well put and I hear you loud and clear. I've been on a couple guided hunts that left me scratching my head. I swear the hunt I got was a far cry from the hunt I booked.

It has made me very gun shy about spending hard earned money on another one. I'm like you. I'm an experienced hunter and expect to be treated as such.

I think some guides assume that anyone who hires a guide won't know the difference.

At about $1000 a day, I expect to hunt like crazy ALL DAY long and go to great lengths to get a good animal. Save your lame excuses for the rich guys who don't know any better. This is my 5 days to get it done, so let's hit it hard.

I also think the lure of big antlers can cloud ones judgement sometimes too. It makes you want to believe all the hype the outfitter tells you. I can be a sucker at times, just because I want it to be true.:)

I think if you find a good one stick with him if possible. I would rather take a good buck with an up front outfitter than a chance at a monster with a snake oil salesman.

I feel your pain.

Eel
Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.
 
Jazz, I really like the thread you have going here. I'm no outfitter myself but i've been around a good bit. Someone above summed it up pretty good i thought when saying to the effect, "if they told the truth, they'd be outa business"

Sorry to hear that you weren't allowed to try and make your hunt all it could be. I certainly understand your frustration!!

Sounds like you've had some real good success on Muleys thru the years. Any chance that you could post up some pic's of your better bucks??

This time of year, we all get a little nuts and good buck pics go a good long ways to keep us snowbound, seasons closed, keyboard kings on the straight and narrow headed for next years hunts...and, being you're a fairly new guy here, we can see what kinda buck you're talking about :)

Thanks!! Joey
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-30-09 AT 06:49PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-30-09 AT 06:48?PM (MST)

Romulus, I have a good hunch on whom your hunt might have been with.
 
I've been on several guided hunts but only one of them was a bad experience & that was in Kansas. One thing i've learned is to go with smaller outfitters that you don't hear much about. If the outfitter has over 20 clients per year than i start looking for another or a DIY hunt. My reasoning is outfitters/guides become somewhat disconnected to the individual hunter & lose sight of the personal attention that they should be giving. A guide may have 1-4 clients every week for however long the season is & i've seen as many as 20 hunters in camp at one time. After awhile it's just another face & the names are all the same, it becomes a job & we all know what it's like to get up & go to work everyday. I think they lose sight of that this may be the only hunt the hunter can afford in his lifetime. I would bet the vast majority of outfitters started their business thinking they would give personalized service, guide someone to their first elk & enjoy seeing the look on their face knowing that they helped fulfill someones dream.

With that being said i've hunted with some great guides & became friends with them. I don't guide the guide, if i felt i had to do that i wouldn't need his services. At no time have i ever felt that a guide was a better hunter than i am. Your paying for his knowledge of the land & private land access, that's the reason i hunt with outfitters, not because i needed someone to hold my hand.

Just my 2 cents!
7 Mag
 
I've been an outfitter during the last 20 years of my life, and I think what you experienced is a guide that was either inconsiderate of your feelings and expectations, or was too burned out or lazy to go hunt.

I try to "read" my client and get a feel for what he is capable of doing when it comes to his part of the hunt.(when I say read, I mean talk it over with him) If he is a fat guy that can't hike because he has bad knees, then we hunt from the truck or from glassing points that will allow a shot right from the point.
If the guy is in decent shape, I'll go till he says he wants a break, then we'll take a break, or switch to glassing or calling or whatever it takes to hunt effectively.
If my guy is a lean mean s.o.b. then we'll hike to the highest peak and glass, then we'll go to another. You get the idea.

Also, there are some guys that want to hunt all day, and others that want to hunt the morning and then go to the restaurant for breakfast, then mess around during the heat of the day, and then go back out in the afternoon and hunt more. You have to listen to your client and then do what it takes to satisfy him.
That being said, if I have a guy that wants to hunt all day long and it is really hot or the mid day hunts are not real productive, I will not take him to the evening or morning glassing spots and tromp through the middle of it and bust the animals out just so he can hunt all day. I'll take him to spots that are less or non glassable, and we'll still hunt, track, call, or whatever we can do to make something happen.

Last but not least, I think a guide should understand just how good, or how bad his hunter really is at hunting the particular animal that you are hunting. While hunting deer, I guide guys who have killed some serious big bucks. I have guys that can see like a hawk, and it's good because they help you find the deer. Others can't see anything, and even worse are the ones that imagine they see stuff. If a guy can call elk better than me, then he gets to run the call. I have no problem with that. If he can hear better than me, which all my hunters can, then if he says he hears a bugle down in a canyon, I will ask him if he feels like he's up to going after it. If he is, then we'll bail off and go get it. If he's not, then I will figure out a way to try to get the animal another way.


The bottom line is that a guide or outfitter needs to remember they are working for the hunter that is paying the bill. They need to be aware of that hunters wants and needs, and they also need to have done their homework and found the animals and know the area very well.

The hunter should let the outfitter know his desires, and his abilities or disabilities up front so he can tailor your hunt to fit you. The last thing that is very frustrating and costly to both parties is the inability to shoot well. I've had a fair amount of hunters flat miss giant bucks, and they've gone home without because they missed a shot at the only big buck we've found during the 5 day hunt. Most of my clients want a 190" or a 200" buck and when one of those comes along, it's real painful to watch a guy shoot over one at 140 yards because it looked farther.

Anyway, I thought I'd add this to the discussion. This is a good topic, and if more people understood both sides of the deal, it would be easier to find a hunt that would make your dreams come true.

DeerBeDead
 
I woulld like to say that you can get burned by an outfitter EVEN WHEN YOU DO YOUR HOMEWORK. I had an experience with an well known outifitter. I checked every reference I could find, talked to people on this site (and other sites) and even talked to other guides (his competitors)and not one person had one single bad thing to say about this my particular outfitter.

When I get to camp I find out that the outifitter picked up more hunters in the guide draw than he expected. So he hired some young kid at the last minute who ended up guiding me. I think I was assigned the kid because I was the only client in camp that wasn't a real estate developer.

The kid had never hunted the unit in his life and had to borrow MY map. The kid tried to get me to shoot every buck we saw and I would have to flat out refuse and tell him "I want something bigger." I finally took a buck that I could have killed on my own without the outfitter or his young guide. I am going to tick off some of the guides with this--but I left the kid my map, no cash, in an envelope for a tip when I pulled out of camp. I heard from one of other guides in camp later on that the kid was later fired because he hunted with a client in another unit and the hunter complained with the same issues.
 
I feel the pain that most of you have talked about. I have done some extensive research on outfitters and what I find is that most outfitters are set up to take species representative animals. I have witnessed numerous hunters in south eastern Montana hunting with guides taking 22 inch muleys and are just tickled to death. Most of the guys that are here on MM are crazy and a different breed of hunter. You guys are looking for a type of outfitter that is rare these days. You are looking for someone that has access, knowledge of an area that can produce a hog. I have gone on guided hunts before but it is generally because I don't have access to the ground without a guide (canada/montana river bottoms). Most guys on here are generally accomplished hunters and what they really need is just access to the private property, tags. Some of these type of outfitters are darn near impossible to get into due to repeat customers and their reputation.

When you are paying in excess of 5K for a hunt, I agree that the outfitter should be crawling across cactus trying to get you a buck but more and more I hear of bad experiences and lack of effort on outfitter/guides. I am very leary of outfitters these days, however I continue to research opportunities as muley tags are harder and harder to get.

I have started to work on gaining access to properties that I can pay a trespass fee and hunt on my own. It takes some time but there are some of these options out there and generally about half the price or less.

Good luck and don't give up on searching for the big one. The search is half the fun.

Rich
 
Sometimes the guide feels pressured to give you a successful hunt, so it seems its his way or the highway. But its your tag, and its your money. Theres still a lot of guys out there that will hunt according to your style or ability. Most clients are good hunters, so they may have some good ideas.

Unfortunately, like any business, theres good guides and theres bad guides, and even the good ones have a bad run from time to time. Go with the guy that is being honest, or check references if possible. Beware the guy that guarantees anything or tells you he has huge animals found everywhere.

And watch out for guys that just hire someone they dont really know anything about to guide a guy on a hunt just to pick up more clients.

www.muleybulloutfitters.com
 
muleybull....+1.

I didn't spend much time on this originally because there were too many contradictions in the original post.

If you ever had ONE bad experience, then you should have learned from that.

The outfitter told you the price of the hunt and you have every right to tell him what you expect from your hunt. If your guide wouldn't do what YOU wanted, you should have ended the hunt right there and asked for a refund, or tell him to sit there while you go hunting.

It's your hunt and it needs to go the way YOU want it.

If you called references, talked about your expectations and got everyone onto the same page, then it all should have been a good experience. If the outfitter is reputable at all, he will tell you up front if he cannot, or will not, do what you want.

I'm sorry you were not happy and I hope your bill was adjusted.
 
Many good points have been made here. I am a 20+ year small-scale outfitter. I kinda chuckled becuase if we stayed in the truck every time the wind blew, we might not ever get out here in SE Wyoming. That said, I'm sorry you had a negative experience. I hear the same stories of outfitters that misrepresent what they have or the inability of guides every year. And in all honesty, I do not know the answer. One of our long-standing clients went on an eastern plains hunt in CO this year. It was a major outfitter who is widely known. The hunt was really bad, never saw even a decent buck and theo utfitter was not knowledgable or prepared. The guy left after 2 days and is now writing letters, but nothing will happen.

I'm not sure what you can do. Deerbedead stated it really well. Most guys here are serious and really just need access. I've gone on two guided hunts myself, both in Canada. They both were terrible and I have never killed a buck in Canada after 4 hunts. Both of those hunts were misrepresented and I was lied to. Never saw the trophy quality or numbers I was told were there.

As a result of my experiences, I won't likely go on another guided hunt. I'll keep trying for CO, UT, and hunt every year at home in Wyoming.

A final note is that almost all (maybe 90%) of the hunters that call me want a 180 mule deer or a 350 elk. EVERYBODY wants bucks like those. I'm honest and tell them that some of our hunters get bucks above those standards, but certainly not all. We averaged 180 in 2007, but that is rare. But if someone tells you every hunter gets a big-time trophy, I'd sure be leary. Some hunters lack the skill and desire to get out and hunt hard and shoot well, which are usually prerequisites to getting a huge deer (although not always).

Good thread and thanks for getting it going.
 
I have a buck posted in the 2009 contest from Nevada. Look for Mark's 188 Buck - Final gross was 191. I also have a couple pics of elk (Nevada) and Antelope (NM) from 2006.
 
Good points about the 5 day hunt hard strategy. I agree and that would include for me S&S early or late but hiking around during the middle of the day, espcially when there are good reasons to do so. I also like your thoughts about some outfitters thinking "you won't know better". Exactly! I and many others don't need the guide to hold our hands and tell us what a good buck is but we do need them for access and the tag and most of the time they are very helpful and knowledgeable but not always, as is the case for myself, but I am willing to try something new, especially on short term hunts.

Jazz
 
7 Mag,

Good points and I have experienced some of the same. I still have some good friends from hunts. I too look for smaller outfitters and I would agree with your points about that as well.

Jazz
 
DeerBeDead,

Great reply! I appreciate your honesty and your points are all valid and are similar to my original thoughts. I think that with good communication and honesty the guide and client can match each other's expectations. For some as you said a few hours and a 23" 4x4 is a good fit or even a managment type buck to help genetics. These hunts are typically less expensive. For someone that is there for a potentially bigger buck then the costs and effort likely will go up. You are correct about hunter's abilities as well and both parties need to be accurate about what they can do.

On a related note I should also say I KNOW that the 190-200" buck doesn't exist behind every juniper tree and while we all want one we won' all get one every year. I know score is a method to discuss quality and I do this as well but I also know that score is not everything (for me) and I can be happy getting nothing or harvesting a big old 3x3. I'm fine either way if I feel like we gave it a good effort.

Thanks again and maybe you can send me a personal email. I wouldn't mind talking to you about other hunt opportunities for mule deer.

Jazz
 
HillbillyNnevada,

Intersting my guide in Montana this year had to have a map to know the property boundaries of the ranch we were on and I left two days early from the hunt and as you left no tip. The tip is another interesting topic in itself. I believe is is appropriate and at times I have left a generous tip for the effort when I killed nothing. Tips are tips and they are not mandatory nor should they be "expected" for poor efforts.

Jazz
 
LostinOregon,

Right on and the hunts you mention are good options. I would really like to find a place where I could DIY, including my own meals or lodging (camping, etc.) and have an opportunity to "hunt". As you mentioned I go through outfitters when I can't find a tag. Canada is a good example because you don't have a choice and I have had some good hunts in Alberta and Sas. but I also had one poor hunt near Grand Prarie where my guide's wife (camp cook) was sleeping with the "head guide". Now that was an adventure for sure! My inferior hunt this year was in Montana as well. Also had a great hunt in Nevada this year after 12 years of waiting. Wish I could go there everyear!

Jazz
 
Mulleybull,

I'm sure your right about "pressure". I have killed some very good bucks and of course I am usually asked what have you killed and how big? I try to be honest but sometimes I think I would be better off by not saying anthing becuase it may cause "pressure". I also am happy with "nothing" or as stated before a big 3x3. I don't care about score except as a way to talk about the bucks.

Thanks Jazz
 
Sorry Nickman there were not a lot of contradictions. Additionally I left the hunt 2 days early after asking the guide directly what his plan was for day 5 of the hunt. I suggested "nicely" on several occasions we might want to try getting out of the pickup and hiking 1-2 miles into the the small canyon country in the windy conditions and was told no. Then I was also told that the "owner" of the property would be coming in and would be hunting with me on day 5 to kill a management buck. The guide also had his lab run with the pickup on several days to and from the hunting area. Besides nearly getting run over the dog was chasing deer in the dark! Now how was I suppose to know all of this before I went? I used a booking agent who had done a decent job prior to this hunt and the ranch had been shut down for 3 years. After I got there the subguide told us the first night, in confidence, that we were "screwed" and that they had never killed good bucks on that ranch, even prior to the shutdown. My partner killed a smallish whitetail and then I asked for a 50% refund on my tag. I was given the same answer as to my hunting suggestions - NO.

Nearly every answer on this thread has been helpful. Nickman yours are the exception and the ONLY one that is negative!

Jazz
 
ICMDEER,

Good points and yes the 180+ buck doesn't exist by the dozens. Sounds like you are honest and fair so that is good. I have been to Alberta 6x and Sas. once for Mule Deer. Two of the hunts were pretty weak and the rest were pretty good. One hunt was combination with WT near Peace River and was good, although a "rodeo" on most mornings for a couple of hours. I enjoy SE Alberta quite a bit and I plan on heading to Eastern Central Alberta next year. I have also hunted the eastern plains of CO. and in SE CO. on three occasions with decent success. Nevada and Utah have been good and NM ok for me. In Wyoming I hunted near Sheridan 2x and generally enjoyed those hunts although one was a combination with MD in Montana. Not good there and much "truck riding". If you get a chance I would be interested in your contact information for the future.

Thanks Jazz
 
Jazz you'll have to excuse Nickman. He can be a little hardheaded at times.

I've only been on one guided hunt in my life. It was for limited entry deer and our experience was pretty good. We were kinda mislead when we found out two other younger guys would be showing us around, instead of the main outfitter who we had been talking with. However, they turned out to be great guys that knew the area very well. And that's all we needed from them. In fact both guides were taking a nap two miles away when I killed my buck. They weren't big hikers.

I think a lot of outfitters try to take on too many clients. Ya they'll make more profit but the quality of service will diminish. Clients may end up getting stuck with a less desirable guide. Outfitters end up having to hire temps or extra help, like the 'kid guide' as previously mentioned.

When I was involved in these services, we made it a point to keep our booking low to keep our satisfaction high. Of course we didn't do it for a living either.

My guess is that you got stuck with a lazy guide. I think I would have ditched him and hunted the property on my own, if possible. That 'truck potato' should have been catering to you.
 
Mulebuck,

Thanks for the reply. Your comments are on track and in fact I asked the guide if I could take off and hunt the 4 square mile area I thought held the one decent buck we had seen. Easy hiking but full of small draws, again where the does were due to the wind. He flat told me NO and then in subsequent discussions with him and the agent they both told me that once you are on the property they control the hunting method and that we would hunt his way.

Sometimes I wonder if the outfitters are worried about liability issues if they let you go alone. I don't see that but I believe they are concerned about letting a hunter go alone. I also think they are concerned that you might kill something that they might have to "work" at a little to get back to the truck and not just drive up to it.

Lazy is right in my opinion. Some want the easy way out and are hoping you will shoot a mediocre buck the first day and from the truck. A less on learned for sure but I will never use Steve's Outdoor Adventures again, that's for sure!

Thanks again,

Jazz
 
I have looked at this post a couple of days now and thought about if I should really respond or not. I hope that I don't offend anybody but I think I can shed a little light on how an outfitter/guide feels about certain hunting situations, so here goes.

One thing you have to remember is that your guide has to taylor his hunting tactics to a wide variety of hunting companions every year. This is easier said than done. I would bet that 80% of the time your guide is NOT hunting the way he would normally hunt if he were on his own. There are a number of reasons for this, the biggest being the lack of physically fit hunters that show up in camp. It amazes me how many hunters show up in camp that say they are in shape but in reality really struggle with the altitude and terrain. IMO this is the biggest factor. That being said, the guessing game begins. Your guide now has to decide whether it's worth pushing game all over the place fully knowing that you will not catch them, just hoping they get lucky enough to get a shot. The guide always has the thought in the back of his mind that wherever he takes his hunter into, he has to get him back out.

The next thing is shot distance. Everybody knows that each person is different with the comfort of making a shot at a given distance. Believe it or not, there are people that come hunting that think they know what 300 yards is but when it comes right down to it they can't make that shot because it's "too far". Sidenote: I am not critisizing anyone for their choice to take a shot or not or their comfort level for making a longer shot. to each his own. Whether you are a seasoned hunter hiring a guide for "land access" or somebody that wants the guide to do everything but pull the trigger, that guide assumes a lot of responsibility for the success of your hunt when you step into his truck.

Here is a formula for you: a hunter that feels uncomfortable about taking a shot longer than 200 yards and was pretty out of shape = probably a smaller animal than he wanted to kill and a little less pleasant hunt than he had planned. Of course when all is said and done it was the guides fault according to him. This is a real scenario that happened within the last few years. This particular hunter showed up in camp and felt like he was a "crack shot" and thought he was in pretty good shape. He forgot he was shooting over draws and hunting at 8000 feet.

My personal preference is this; I love hunting with a person that knows what they are doing in the field, knows their equipment, and knows their limitations. I love hunting with people that I can have an inteligent conversation with about the animal we are hunting. I love hunting with people that I can learn from. But, bottom line is you have made a significant financial investment in your guides knowlege and ability to put you onto game. Chances are your guide is NOT going to hunt like you. He has different preferences and strategies to filling your tag. Sit back, tell them what you think, but let him earn his money. If all you wanted was a guide for land access, buy a landowner tag and DIY. You will save yourself and your guide a lot of frustration.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
Ok Bull,

I understand your first point. I have been in camps where some hunters would have a hard time making it 100 yards from the truck. My point is, while I'm 54 I am in decent shape and have made it to the top of the mountain in every place I've hunted. I will say I'm not as fast as I once was but I still can get there. In Nevada this year the country was pretty big but no problems. In Montana where I had the problem it was like a walk in the park. Not a serious mountain anywhere just a lazy guide.

In my original comments I mentioned "pushing" the deer. I saw little evidence that they were going to go any further than a few hundred yards. I was the last hunter on the ranch and the rut was full boar. The owner showed up and shot 7 times at an elk and then as they crossed a canyon to get to it they pushed a pretty good buck and does out. Now 7 shots didn't even make them leave.

Shot distance is important for sure. I'm very comfortable up to 400 yards and I have bino's with a range finder so I KNOW the distance. In Montana the shooting would have been under 300 regularly and it could be just as far via spot and stalk as hiking!

So I agree with many of your points. Buying the tag and DIY is great but not always an option and many place are tied up by outfitters. That's ok by me and I can understand why landowners want to have one centralized person to contact.

What I didn't see in your response was this. When I have the intelligent conversation with the guide and I know more about deer hunting than he does (his first year) why won't he listen? Why won't he hike 1/2 mile when all the deer are in small canyons out of the 50 mile an hour wind, something I learned when I was 16. Why won't the guide let me hunt on my own if he is too lazy to get out of the pickup?

It was never about the buck I didn't get it was always about enjoying the hunt that I paid for!

Jazz
 
Ok, I'm back to add another idea on this one. I"m not trying to add fuel to the fire, but I do understand why an outfitter doesn't want you to hunt alone.

First off, I wouldn't let a hunter go it alone because of the potential liability issues. I don't want to be responsible for what a hunter does while I'm not there to control the situation.

For example: the hunter could trespass, poach, get hurt, die, hurt someone else, wound an animal, or several other things I wouldn't let happen if I was with him.
The other reason I would stick with him no matter what is that the minute I leave, and he kills something, he starts to tell everyone how he hunted the animal down by himself and he really didn't even need a guide. That leads to him wanting his money back, and several other problems that an outfitter doesn't want to deal with.

Back to your hunt Jazz, I think you plain had a guide that was too lazy to get off his arse and go hunt with you. He probably had a few clients kill deer close to the truck and was hoping you would get the same opportunity before the hunt ended.

DeerBeDead
 
I was generalizing there Jazz and not commenting on the hunt you had. If I had been in that situation I would have got out of the truck and started after the game. I would bet that kid would have been right behind you because, like DeerBeDead said, he would have gotten his butt chewed if he would have let him out on his own and the outfitter heard about it. If that didn't work I would have gone back to camp and demanded to talk with the outfitter. My guess is that your guide thought way too much of his hunting skills to admit you knew more than he did. Sorry to hear about your experience. It's a tough business to be in believe me. That is exactly the reason I don't ever want to get any bigger than I am right now. The more guides you have working for you the better chance you have running into that exact scenario.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
DeerBeDead,

I'm sure your correct on the liability part of this. I can understand that perspective in this day and age of lawsuit happy judges and jurys. On my hunt you are also correct. The week before I was there the guide/outfitter talked about the 4 "Texans" that wanted to shoot bucks the first day and then drink and call coyotes. I saw all of their bucks and the 3 killed before them. Nothing better than a 160 type. Ok for them but not me. Additionally, "calling coyotes" in the area where I'm going to hunt the next week but wouldn't walk into the draws for fear of "blowing the deer out". What's up with that?

The subguide did hunt with my partner and as mentioned he killed a decent whitetail by "pushing" it out of a small draw.

Thanks for the reply.

Jazz
 
AWHOLELOTTABULL,

Thanks for your time and input on this. I appreciate it. I tried to "leave" the truck and hike into the area that I believe held the best bucks and he told me I coudn't. Now I suppose I could have kept going but I was trying to respect the rules. He was the outfitter by the way and his subguide was with my partner. As mentioned they tried different tactics and had a fun time hunting.

My biggest complaints here are:

1. Try something different when S&S doesn't work
2. Let the hunter have input. If he's wrong so what he may be happier than doing it your way.
3. Don't oversell hunts. If a 160 buck is what you expect historically, say so and let the market choose or not choose. Once the hunter pays the $'s it seems like they are taking most of the risks with no recourse.

I have spoken with the outfitter and agent several times about this hunt with absolutely no admittance of any wrong doing. By the way did you catch the part about letting his dog run with the pickup in the mornings and was allowed to chase deer all the way? Or him telling me that the "owner" would be hunting with me to kill a management buck? And there's more but I've left that stuff out.

Again thanks for your input.

Jazz
 
Do you need someone to hold your hand to hunt every year?

Sounds like you have enough money for unit wide LO tags in several states, and you hold yourself in high regard as a hunter. so why use a guide in the first place? ALB asked you that as well, and it sounds like its a foreign concept to you? (hunting without a guide)

nickman is correct, you are contradictory, but you are to sure of yourself to see it...carry on
 
REDDOG,

Think whatever you would like. I have hunted DIY most of my life, including this year. If you could read you would have seen that. Additionally I will compare my best bucks, all DIY, best antelope, DIY, elk DIY, with anything you want to through out. I hunt via outfitters to get tags and if I'm short on research I guess it's all of the these LO tags that you mention. So why don't you just send me a list of all of those first class tags that are available at reasonable prices. By the way try hunting in Canada DIY!

Jazz
 

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