Trophy Mule Deer

[WORKNMAN]

Is it just me, but has any one else noticed everywhere that Mule Deer are doing great, Elk hunting usually is average to poor. Everywhere Elk hunting is great, Mule Deer hunting is average to poor. This is not only in Utah. Reference South East Idaho Unit 76. Once a great Mule Deer haven, now poor, now one of Idaho's top Elk unit's. Could the rise in trophy elk hunting in Utah over the last 10-15 years be directly related to the Mule Deer Problem??? What does everyone think? Espically you guy's down in Southern Utah that have hunted there for the last 10-20 years. You live there you should know. I respect your opinion more than a damn book at a DWR office. Or a snot nose college kid pretending to be a wildlife biologist.Let's hear your thought's!!!!

 

[tabbyhntr]

From what I've learned it depends on the area. Where feed is plentiful there's a good balance of elk and deer. Where its less plentiful is where the problem is because elk can eat a bigger variety of plants, they just prefer to eat the few foods a deer can eat leaving the deer high and dry. I'm sure there's more to it but that's a big part of it.

 

[slamdunk]

Elk & deer don't compete for food for the most part, but it's beleived that deer don't like elk because they are noisy animals (that's the theory anyway, i've never asked one ;-)).
When elk get thick an an area, deer will simply move to another location.

 

[DougW]

elk and deer do compete for the same foods on the winter range....

 

[sneekeepete]

>elk and deer do compete for
>the same foods on the
>winter range....
+1 I think that this has a major impact on Mule Deer herds. Maybe they don't compete for the rest of the year but in the winter when everything is hard pressed they sure do.

Hunting is my way of life
Sgt. Petersen
USMC OIF OEF Vet.

 

[LowCountryElk]

I've noticed, in a bunch of years hunting both species, that it seems that the deer numbers dramatically decrease once an elk herd moves into what was once a great mule deer area. Not to say the deer disappear, but it seems that they do in large part move out as a group. I still noticed some good bucks hanging around, but not in near the numbers. For what its worth, I've seen it happen in both nw NM (started in the late 70's) and se NM (mid 80's). I think the deer herds picked back up, or at least flucutated later on, but can't say for certain as I haven't hunted either area in the last decade or so like I did before.

 

[Muleys24Seven]

Living in Idaho it definitely appears that elk and deer populations are moving in different directions. I think most if not all of the competition occurs on the winter range. Deer and elk do share critical food sources in the winter. I've also seen area's inhabited by deer in the winter and if elk move in they leave to new areas...even if the new area has less food or more snow. I also think elk are more tolerant to human activity in the winter. In E Idaho and W WY the elk seem to be adapting better to the influx of human activity and I think this activity has put much more stress on the deer.

It will be interesting to see in regions of Idaho with wolves if deer populations begin to increase with the reduced elk herd. I know wolves will go after deer but they are elk specialists.

 

[AspenAdventures]

I have noticed the same thing.

I don't know the biology but I have noticed the same thing. Monroe mountain in Utah is a prime example. From the stories I get from a buddy of mine Monroe must have had a lot of deer at one time. Now it is covered in Elk.

But, what about the Book Cliffs. They have a lot of deer but aren't the elk doing well too?


"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

 

[slamdunk]

I DO agree with you guys that they eat the same things during tough times in winter. That's evident when you can see both deer & elk eating hay right out of barns when they can.
But my post did said "for the most part" and i wasn't referring to winter ;-)
Aspen brings up a good point about the book cliffs.
The only thing that comes to mind there is the vast amount of bitter brush all over that unit, it's literally everywhere you look. That may have something to do with the deer staying even though there's a lot of elk??
Monroe reminds me of Strawberry back in the deer heyday's.
I used to see hundreds of deer in a day and were lucky to see a cow elk, now it's the opposite.
However.....the deer in the strawberry valley are pretty thick in the lower sage brush country, versus the aspens and pines up top.
Monroe is just plain void of deer to where they shortened the hunt last fall because of it.
Now toss Colorado in this. They have 3 times the number of elk we do and the deer are doing fantastic in about 2/3 of that state.
Go figure!

 

[piper]

Colorado has its example, so does Nevada, lots of poor and declining deer herds where elk never set foot. I think mostly we have a lot of sick habitat and elk are bigger more adaptable animals, so they do better.

 

[NDMuley]

talked to biologists in many states .elk take the best winter area deer have whats left.less veg less winter cover less of everythingso they have less fawns less survive winter. in the end less deer. it happened here in our national park used to have lots of deer transplanted elk now have over 1ooo elk which they want to bring in sharpshooters instead of hunters to reduce the numbers because of over grazing..not a good deal.used to see 4 or 5 30 inch bucks an lots of deer now see very few deer at all.the elk are taking over.

 

[scoutdog5]

Logic would seem to dictate that if large elk herds and human populations negatively impact mule deer populations, then the state with the largest elk herd would have a struggling mule deer population.

In fact, Colorado, with 260,000 elk, has both the largest elk herd and the largest mule deer population, around 500,000, down from 600,000 after the 2008 winter kill. I believe Colorado is the third largest state population wise behind California and Washington, although Arizona might be in there. Geographically, very average sized state for the West, and the vast majority of elk and mule deer are in the Western 60% of the state.

There is no question mule deer will move away from large elk herds, although i don't believe they go far. There is no evidence or research I can find that large elk herds negatively impact mule deer reproduction or populations.

Scoutdog

 

[tex270]

I believe Colorado is the third largest state population wise behind California and Washington.
Not to start a p_ssing contest, but Colorado is not even close to the top in population. Texas ranks 3rd. Colorado is around 20th. But I think everyone is on the right track here, it seems where elk prosper, mulies decline. I read somewhere, that while whitetails, and elk can somewhat live in closer quarters with civlization, mule deer cannot. Everwhere man encroaces on their territory, their numbers decline.

 

[WORKNMAN]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-08-10 AT 06:50AM (MST)[p]I dont think the Book Cliff area would be in this discussion because of the extra effort the DWR took to help the deer rebound down there.(ie) closeing the deer hunt down for a few years. ??? My god is that the answer, is it right in front of our faces? Look what happened in the book cliff's area after the hunt was closed for a few years. Could reduceing tags be a possible option for helping the deer herd here in Utah.

 

[AspenAdventures]

worknman
+1,000,000,000


"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

 

[Jazz]

I hunted for several years in SE Idaho as you mentioned. When we first started hunting there we rarely saw an elk unles we went east of the Georgetown area. As the years went by we began to see more elk on the west side of Bear Lake and at that time the deer were doing quite well. This was all after the '84-'85 winter kills in the area. I didn't notice any real change until after the '92 winter kill. For awhile it seemed like there was more elk than deer and I eventually gave up on the area and I have not hunted there now in several years. During that time a good friend was working for the USFS there and they actually wanted the F&G to dramatically increase the elk tags to keep them from gaining ground on the "westside". Not sure what is happening there now but the deer quality was much better than the elk quality so hopefully the elk numbers will be kept lower. That particular area gets pretty bad winters and I'm sure that what many have said here is true and when the times get tough the elk do better.

Jazz

 

[dillon]

I think it varies from year to year. Some years elk do better, and other year the deer do better. Look at Mt. Dutton, a few years ago it snowed so hard they had to feed the elk, but the deer had all migrated and had a great winter. So the elk suffered and the deer thrived. Then there was a hard winter in the migration area for deer and the elk were not hit very hard, and they did great. I think a lot has to do with winter kill personally. And sometime the cow elk hunters have a hard time getting in to where the elk are holding up, and very few hunters fill their tags. Hunters have an influence, but winter does more damage.

Am I the snot nose college kid pretending to be a wildlife biologist?

Because I mostly just think/write like the hunter I am on here, but I am studying to be a wildlife biologist, so I can enjoy what I love someday even more.

Dillon

 

[WORKNMAN]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-08-10 AT 12:58PM (MST)[p]>I think it varies from year
>to year. Some years
>elk do better, and other
>year the deer do better.
>Look at Mt. Dutton, a
>few years ago it snowed
>so hard they had to
>feed the elk, but the
>deer had all migrated and
>had a great winter.
>So the elk suffered and
>the deer thrived. Then
>there was a hard winter
>in the migration area for
>deer and the elk were
>not hit very hard, and
>they did great. I
>think a lot has to
>do with winter kill personally.
>And sometime the cow elk
>hunters have a hard time
>getting in to where the
>elk are holding up, and
>very few hunters fill their
>tags. Hunters have an
>influence, but winter does more
>damage.
>
>Am I the snot nose college
>kid pretending to be a
>wildlife biologist?
>
>Because I mostly just think/write like
>the hunter I am on
>here, but I am studying
>to be a wildlife biologist,
>so I can enjoy what
>I love someday even more.
>
>
>Dillon
Maybe you wont be, If you have been a hunter long before you become a bilolgist. I respect some biologist but not all. Especially the one, I, as well as other people I know, talked with all last spring and summer about the decline in Moose numbers and quality. I was told many times there was no proplem with the Moose numbers and quality in this state. Espically the Ogden Area and North Slope Unita's area. Then a petion was started by someone in the pinview area and got the DWR to stop transplanting Moose to other states and cut back on the harvest of Bulls and cows. My friend a CWMU operator told me he would not half to do any cow moose hunt's in 2009 because the DWR had over harvested bulls and cows. Man alot sure changed in just a few months.

 

[thirtythirty]

>I've noticed, in a bunch of
>years hunting both species, that
>it seems that the deer
>numbers dramatically decrease once an
>elk herd moves into what
>was once a great mule
>deer area. Not to
>say the deer disappear, but
>it seems that they do
>in large part move out
>as a group. I
>still noticed some good bucks
>hanging around, but not in
>near the numbers. For
>what its worth, I've seen
>it happen in both nw
>NM (started in the late
>70's) and se NM (mid
>80's). I think the
>deer herds picked back up,
>or at least flucutated later
>on, but can't say for
>certain as I haven't hunted
>either area in the last
>decade or so like I
>did before.

I think it safe to say that some deer(usually whities) populations, in certain areas, are being negativity affected by wolves. (Off the topic here but moose also.) Whats next?

 

[BrowningRage]

This isn't a thread about reducing tags... But thanks for the input...

I've always noticed and felt that deer and elk herds seem to be inversely proportional to one another. In the 3 regions that my family is able to hunt, South, South East, and Northern it is evident that where we hunt deer, we see few elk, and where we hunt elk, we see fewer deer... Just personal experience, but it's been this way for a decade I'd say... that I can remember.

 

[WORKNMAN]

Dont be supprised if the DWR starts issueing more antlerless elk tags, and more limited entry bull tags. Inorder to reduce the overall elk herd numbers. I hear the state is tired of the elk creating a problem on ranchers land in the winter months. Therefor, they must shoot them, to remove them from the ranchers ground. I guess there is not enough winter ground or feed for them. This will probably piss of people trying to draw a limited entry elk tag that has waited for 10-15 years to draw. But, in turn might help the deer herd???

 

[cantkillathing]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-14-10 AT 09:51AM (MST)[p]I have yet to see an elk kill a deer.

In utah we give out about 3000-4000 elk permits,

we give out 98,000 deer permits,

Now tell me why the elk do so good and the deer do so bad.

if we swap them and hunt 3000-4000 deer and 98,000 elk then we will see the trend the other way.

Mule deer in Utah are over hunted.

 

[WORKNMAN]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-14-10 AT 10:05AM (MST)[p]>LAST EDITED ON Jan-14-10
>AT 09:51?AM (MST)
>
>I have yet to see an
>elk kill a deer.
>
>In utah we give out about
>3000-4000 elk permits,
>
>we give out 98,000 deer permits,
>
>
>Now tell me why the elk
>do so good and the
>deer do so bad.
>
>if we swap them and hunt
>3000-4000 deer and 98,000 elk
>then we will see the
>trend the other way.
>
>Mule deer in Utah are over
>hunted.

Travis, I agree. I think to many tags are issued for what deer we have available in the field. I'm sure the DWR is slow to cut tags because they would half to lay off employees because of lost revenue. The only way they will is if they increase the cost of deer tags to offset the cut. No one said Elk kill deer, but alot of people agree Elk displace Mule Deer, espically on the winter range.

 

[cantkillathing]

Its all perception.....it is better to blame it on the elk, but its not the elk, it is over hunting and mismanagement of mule deer. If the dwr will cutt one year out of hunting, one year you will see 40,000 head of deer increase. There is appox. 40,000 bucks killed every year in utah, could you imagine how 40,000 head of deer increase in one year will do.

Cutt one year and then have a solid deer managment plan put together to keep the deer from getting so low again, and quit hunting the doe.

Anyway this is a whole other subject, but blamming it on the elk is not the cause of mule deer decline.

 

[sonofthesouth]

You bring up a good point, Mule Deer have always been the work horse that pays the bills for the Game and Fish's budgets and as the cost of doing business has gone up the costs of tags have not followed by the same margin. Depts have to try and pay more people and handle more projects at a much higher cost of doing business with less and less money and every time there is a cost increase of a license everyone bitches about it and points out that when they were a kid they could buy a deer tag for $9 dollars (or whatever it was) I also believe that Elk have had a huge impact on the mule deer numbers, I say that because I can go to winter ground that has been in our family for over 70 yrs and always had high numbers of deer wintering there and now all you see there is Elk and very few deer.

Imagine what the deer hunting would be like if you had hundreds of Elk on the Arizona Strip, would the introduction of Elk go unnoticed and the Mule deer quality be exactly as it is now? I can promise you that it would not be the same and that the Mule deer would suffer from it.

Charge more for deer tags, kill fewer, kill a lot more Elk along with designating some areas as Mule deer only units and make the Elk hunting unlimited either sex tags in that specific area/unit.

JMO

Son