How Many Years?

[slcmuley]

With the general hunts being shortened this year how many years do you guys feel it will take to show a difference? Do you think it will help at all?
I am guessing the DWR feels this is a better choice than lowering tag numbers or micro-managing smaller units.

Just wondering what your guys' thoughts were.

 

[gb22]

I don't know the specifics on how much the hunts were shortened....but it can make only a minute difference.

Firstly, human hunters do not kill as many animals as predators and auto accidents.......those will remain unchanged.

Hunters who really WANT to kill a deer, will do so within a short period of time. It will have almost no effect on poaching, wounded deer and similar.

To increase herds, predators MUST be addressed.


Within the shadows, go quietly.

 

[nickman]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-10 AT 03:07AM (MST)[p]sorry.....power surge....lost my remote keyboard

 

[nickman]

GB22 nailed it....that may be the most intelligent post seen on here in months.

 

[BomberBlackies]

+1 And lets just not think that the longtail kittykat is the sole perpetraitor of death on these majestic animals. Folks, kill as many Taliba...oops coyotes as you can! These sneaky critters are to blame as much as the lion or wolf..if not more.

 

[Tree]

>With the general hunts being shortened
>this year how many years
>do you guys feel it
>will take to show a
>difference? Do you think it
>will help at all?
>I am guessing the DWR feels
>this is a better choice
>than lowering tag numbers or
>micro-managing smaller units.[b/]
>
>Just wondering what your guys' thoughts
>were.

Guess again, micro management/statewide LE is headed our way. Look for it at the November RAC meetings.

 

[dillon]

Shortening the season is not going to make a very big difference. In the Norther RAC meeting Anis Aoude said that most hunters only hunt and only kill on opening weekend. So shortening the season is rather useless. Except on the Cache/Ogden and which ever others got shortened because they are now practically closed. 3 day rifle, I believe 3 day muzz, and less than two weeks of archery. We will see a difference on those units.

I think the state should manage deer like they do elk. Smaller units. Sign me up for a Zion archery deer tag, with Panguitch Lake archery deer as my second choice. If they do this they will reduce the quota, and it will be closer to an every other year hunt for the muzz and rifle guys for sure and maybe archers on a few places. But is what needs to be done in my opinion.

Dillon

 

[BUCKSPY]

This shorter season will cause hunters to become less selective and will even further the already heavy pressure on 1-3 year old deer. This will have a severly negative effect on the buck numbers 3-5 years down the road and will make a bad situation much worse.

Its fairly obvious that there is a "got my buck" mentality there in Utah that is more pervasive than other states and the season shortening will be a regretable management decision by everyone in the future. Why? Because Colorado did shorten seasons to 3 days 15 plus years ago and only through vocal pressure by sportsmen did the DOW finally cut tag numbers and limit hunter pressure in the late 90's and look what happened. Colorado rewrote the record book in a 4-5 year span. Record class deer are evidence of great age class distribution within a herd that has the genetic potential to produce them. Utah has the genetic potential so this is a measureable, yet anecdotal piece of evidence that is simply unrecognized and unacceptable data to consider by wildlife managers.

Short term solution is simply to drastically reduce deer hunter numbers and no one seems to be willing to do that. Could it be that there is an entitlement mentality about deer hunting in Utah that clouds solid long term management options in already limited and competetive hunting culture? From the outside looking in, I think so.

Long term is to address PJ encroachment, predators and habitat loss due to the "scorch the Earth fires" in the deer zones that are wiping out more and more of what was marginal deer habitat to begin with. It doesn't help that elk allowed to expand in great numbers throughout what were formally great deer producing areas with large expanses of oakbrush and aspen.

 

[NickJ1980]

Who is this "BUCKSPY" who preaches the gospel?

Coming from a former Utahn & current Coloradan, I think you nailed it.

 

[Tree]

Utah WILL be reducing hunter numbers in the next year or two. The trick is going to be figuring out how many tags to allocate to each of the 30 units. I would imagine there will be quite a bit of jockeying for the first few years.

 

[slamdunk]

They never leave any changes alone long enough to see a real impact, negative or positive.







http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx290/slamdunk_04/E1x1BWINV1-2.jpg[/IMG]

 

[paintslinger]

Good to see your still out there buckspy, always good to get your perspective. You pretty much nailed it. Utah has reaped the benefits of selling tags for somthing they don't have(deer) and making alot of money. If I sold a product that I only advertised but did not produce I would make alot of money but then shortly I would be out of business. "As long as were are stupid enough to by them they'le sell um"

 

[pugs]

I do not feel that the shortening of the general deer season is going to have a positive impact on our deer numbers. In fact in the Northern part of the state I think that by making the Cache a three day season will be a detriment to the other surrounding areas that have five day seasons. For example I think that we will see an increase in hunting pressure on the five day units after the three day season on the cache unit closes. The Cache unit will benefit but the surrounding areas will go from bad to worse, with a possible greater number of bucks being harvested, and more hunters in the field.



Happy Hunting

 

[tstewy]

+1 dillon
I am right there with you i think if they micromanage the units it will be better for all i would rather hunt every other year and have a better hunt than see 150 does and 5 bucks and one i would shoot that was my opening weekend on the south slope. 2 yrs eariler 6 4pts opening weekend and 20 bucks!! if the number arnt there cut the tags!! To all in the basin we are going to be doing a preador contest at the store and are going to be giving away a remmington gun and scope so if you have any ideas on a format let me know.

 

[fishon]

There is zero evidence that shows deer will be saved by this shortend hunt. Infact I had Anis in studio on my radio show and he said that he believes it will have no effect on saving deer.

He stopped short of agreeing with me that actually more deer will be killed but that is how I see it.

The deer shortening decision was not the DWR's. They were in fact against it. It was SFW who pushed it through.

More deer are likely to get killed because now there will be more pressure to kill early. This is common sense.

All this change did is take opportunity away from 95,000 deer hunters. Nothing more.

Enjoy the 5 days and the 95,000 tags, because the way certain people are pushing things we will soon have 3 days and 50,000 tags.

Hunting as we have known it is going away fast. It will soon be all about who has money and who has the most points.

Thats why I hunt other states and country's, I atleast still have an opportunity to hunt when I do that.

Tony

 

[tstewy]

Tony i agree with you it is not going to make a dif but on the south slope the numbes suck and are way down so how do you increas the numbers? with out cutting tags or time in the feild.

 

[slcmuley]

Would somebody who hunts the southern and south eastern units agree? These regions had their seasons shortened to 5 days for a few years. Was it was long enough to show any change good or bad?
Tony- I actually emailed you my mule deer management suggestions back when the management plan was up for review. I also sent it to several govornment officials, the DWR, and SFW. It wasn't perfect, but I at least tried to get my perspective out there. Not a single person repilied.
I fear the doom and gloom you speak of may be upon us shortly.

 

[swbuckmaster]

>Tony i agree with you it
>is not going to make
>a dif but on the
>south slope the numbes suck
>and are way down so
>how do you increas the
>numbers? with out cutting tags
>or time in the feild.
>


you cut rifle tags and make up the difference in short range weapons!!!!!!! This is a last ditch effort to allow you to still hunt every year. There is no better example of this than the front.. 200" plus bucks you can hunt every year for 4 months with rut hunts. No SFW smoke screen habitat improvement projects! No winter range! No auction tags! This is no BS! But all you hear in a crying baby voice "is but I don't wana pick up a bow!"

Why anyone would say i would rather hunt every 10 years just so i can see a 4 point buck is beyond me. micro management is LE state wide.

Nets are for fish!!

 

[tstewy]

SW i guess you and I will never see eye to eye on this one. I respect you and all others that CHOOSE to hunt with a stick and String I CHOOSE to hunt with my muzzy and alot of others CHOOSE to hunt with a rifle. But it grand scheme of things shouldn't all sportsman be in the same boat? Why should one group have opportunity taken away while another is given more? I understand that feel that primitive weapon is the way to go for you. But it seems like inmost of your comments you are always trying to lobby for more opportunity for your weapon choice. But if the numbers suck which in my area they are crap why should all of as sportsman sacrifice for the good of the heard.I do agree i feel that they should make the units smaller and manage them according to the buck to do ratio. If it so happens that they need to cut tags i think the rifle hunt should get whacked the hardest if the harvest percentage goes as follows for and example rifle 30% muzzy 20% stick and string 10% than if their has to be 10 tags cut it should be 5 rifle 3 muzzy and 2 bow. that is fair way to do it but imo until Utah starts managing their herds on a smaller level we will never see the potential reached that are state has for exp. if south slope has 6 buck per 100 does and anthro has 15 buck per 100 does and three corners has 20 buck per 100 all populations are equal in number. If the buck to do ratio is set at 15 and 500 tags go to hunt the south slope and the other 500 are split that means the the south slopeis over hunted. and when there is a massive winter kill like in 08-09 than there has to be tags cut andthe cuts should be shared by all by increasing tags in other areas you still are having more deer killed ok im done sw i have not met you but i respect you and you seem like you really do care about the health of hunting in our state.

 

[swbuckmaster]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-10 AT 10:13PM (MST)[p]tstewy
I will try and answer your questions. I am also not bashing just hashing

"But it grand scheme of things shouldn't all sportsman be in the same boat?"

Maybe they should 33%rifle 33%muzzy 33% archery fair is fair!

"Why should one group have opportunity taken away while another is given more?"

why would you pit hunter vs hunter to me its not about that. We are all hunters the only reason I even hunt with a lame bow is cause I can do it every year, hunt in the rut, and hunt for 4 months a year while chasing big bucks.

"But it seems like inmost of your comments you are always trying to lobby for more opportunity for your weapon choice."

I would put the bow down in an instant if I could do the same thing with a rifle but the facts are you cant. This is the only reason I am for bow and preach it from the mountain tops. I am a rifle hunter at heart and got sick of only being able to hunt every other year or fear what is in the pipe line coming from SFW! Every 5 to 10 disguised in micro management.

"But if the numbers suck which in my area they are crap why should all of as sportsman sacrifice for the good of the heard."

I absolutely know without a doubt you can cut the rife tags back and increase the muzzy tags and bow tags all the while increase the buck numbers and quality. limiting the range of the weapon is the last ditch effort to just saying e'ff it in utah.

heck maybe we can see eye to eye. maybe you are right about micro management. maybe we can cut out a couple more small areas like the front where we can increase the heck out of the buck to doe ratio's by making archery only areas. We then could carve up rifle and muzzy areas where rifles and muzzys are the only ones allowed. Then each group can manage their herds for buck to doe ratios as they see fit. they could also manage their own tag numbers and season dates as they see fit.

Nets are for fish!!

 

[knoxville471]

it is all about money to the ones who make the final say boys and until you change that it will remain the same.IMO

 

[oakbrush]

How many years?

I live in the Southern region. When the rifle hunt went to 5 days about 10 years ago, it took about 3 years and you could see a huge difference. In the unit that I live in, it was 5 bucks to 100 does before the season was shortened, in 3-4 years, it was 20-25 bucks per 100 does. And you had a chance at a big one.

oakbrush

 

[BrowningRage]

+1 +1 Slamdunk

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24

 

[BrowningRage]

"Could it be that there is an entitlement mentality about deer hunting in Utah that clouds solid long term management options in already limited and competetive hunting culture? From the outside looking in, I think so."

Though this may seem like a problem with hunters (and with some it is true) you have to remember that they "need" to make money. The hesitance to reduce tags is more about money than it is "entitlement".


"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24

 

[Gator]

I was seeing the same thing down in SE utah seems to be more and bigger bucks now that the season was shorten,But the biggest problem down in the SE is the amount of deer killed on the Hwy it just might be more are killed on the road then by Hunters. Now they all aren't bucks but I have seen some really good bucks killed on that Hwy along woth some big Bulls.

Now this year you have a huge snowfall, You will have to wait and see what makes it back up the mountain. I think the area took a pretty good hit But others thinks it a normal year. IMO I think you will see less deer, don't think the elk suffered the winterkill the deer did.IMO


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".

 

[388Net]

How come the DWR is letting the elk numbers skyrocket on units like the Southwest Desert and other units. The elk population is more than double of what it is supposed to be on this unit.. I wish they would control the elk a little more with cow hunts or youth hunts. I believe that the elk are pushing the deer to do things that they are not used to be doing. Who has the official say on the numbers of elk on a unit and when it is more than double of what it is supposed to be why are they able to get away with this. On units like the Beaver they are wanting to kill more does, but they let the elk population exceed in numbers.. The deer have way less inpact than the elk and they are hunted harder and not managed half as good as the elk...

 

[Founder]

I agree that the shortened season will not be in play long enough to see a positive or negative impact. Public pressure will have the UDWR doing something different either next year or the following.

In the end, cutting tags (probably in half) is going to have the biggest impact in increasing buck quality and numbers. However, I hate to see the day when I only get to hunt deer in Utah every 3-4 years.

I think the shorter season will save a few bucks, which is the idea. Save bucks this year and have more older bucks next year. Will it be a huge difference? Probably not. It's just hard to see the day come where a person only gets to hunt every 3-4 years.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com

 

[paintslinger]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-10 AT 10:50AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-10 AT 10:45?AM (MST)

Although there have been many good comments here one thing that needs to be taken into consideration here with the Southern Unit is not only it's size, but also the diversity of habitat it takes in. I'll agree, the 5 day hunt improved the buck to doe ratios as well as the quality in our area. Most that go into my neck of the woods are very selective. Not many what to haul a 2 pt 5 to 8 miles on the sand.Now lets take into account this winter in the southern unit. North of the Boulder mountain seen an average snow fall with little impact on the deer while snow fall South was above normal,and greatly impacted the deer. Adding insult to injury the four feet of snow we had did not melt for 2 1/2 months. In my shed hunting adventures(and I do a lot) I found as many lion and winter kills in 2 day's as I have in the last 4 years. Deer were highly concentrated depleting there food source as well as making it easy for a lion to take advantage of them in the deep, crusted snow. Now do game units in the north of the unit need to be managed differently than those in the south, yes. Will they be, no. Will those who hunt the southern unit still demand a tag despite the poor deer numbers, yes. Heaven forbid someone else kill a big buck on the year we wouldn't have a tag.

Now do I believe that a shortened hunt is the answer to say, the southern unit. No, not to the whole southern unit. You can not manage the heard on the individual "heard units" the same in the whole region. We need to back off a heard unit that looses deer to the various conditions instead of allowing hunters to migrate,deplete the resource and move on.

Again and again we are told managing individual units does not work. "HEY COLORADO, STOP MANAGING INDIVIDUAL UNITS, IT DOESN'T WORK. YOU WILL NEVER SEE LOTS OF, OR BIG DEER. WE HERE IN UTAH HAVE IT ALL FIGURED OUT!!!!" Utah doesn't have pore management, it's lazy management.

I really don't think the number of days in the field, 5 or 9,matters as much as the number of hunters you put in a given area does. I believe the longer it takes you to draw a specific area the more selective you are.

 

[swbuckmaster]

I know an area where they dont allow atv's and that area buck to doe ratio has doubled in the last few years.

id like to see more areas closed to atv's

Nets are for fish!!

 

[Tree]

>I know an area where they
>dont allow atv's and that
>area buck to doe ratio
>has doubled in the last
>few years.
>
>id like to see more areas
>closed to atv's
>
>

>Nets are for fish!!

+1


www.bowhuntersofutah.com

 

[theox]

i hate atvs! to many roads to get in the back country not enough area you can hike in to anymore with out an atv trail close.

 

[RACKMASTER]

here we go blaming ATV's....is it to many ATV's or to many roads? I see jeeps in the back country also..trails from Atv's where there not suppose to be? well that's irresponsible riders and not every rider is on that trail! is this a wilderness area you speak of!
I just think 5 day hunts do nothing except slaughter the young and let the old get older..

rackmaster

 

[theox]

not blaming atvs/jeeps completly but i think they have an impact.
think about it since atvs have become so popular the last 10-15 years the deer seem to struggle more and more...people are able to drive deeper into the woods(where you used to have to hike to get into) were the deer used to hole up.
atvs jeeps etc in the backcountry same thing. just stating i hate them, apparently youu must be one of those guys on the atvs lol jk
they have to many roads made now. cant seem to get away from them. i couldnt care less fi people use them but keep them on more main roads. i hate when people think if they drive there quad down into the nasty thick crap there gonna see a big buck they seem to forget that the deer can hear and see them from a mile away. i think a little better atv restrictions during the hunts woould be nice. seems like every waterhole has an atv trail right up to it.
i think atvs have a place in hunting but burning up and down the little trails all day long is not one of them. there nice for packing out if you need to.

my stance on 5 day hunt is they never leave it going long enought o see if it actually does make a diff. there 5 year plans only seem to last 2-3 before a new 5 year plan is instated. hard to say, i dont like the idea of micro managing mostly because i like hunting multiple areas. but i think it helps the deer herd be managed more properly 5 regions statewide is not a good managment tool,just too vast of areas .deer may be doing well in pinevalley area while struggling in the beaver area yet no limit is put on how many people can hunt either of those ares. micro is much more precise to the needs of specific areas instead of broad ares. i just hate the thought of the deer hunt turning into the utah elk hunts.i honestly think utah just needs to step up and quit putting all there focus on elk and balance it out to focus on deer.

 

[fishon]

The only things that will help our deer herds now are


1. Shut it down all togehter (never gonna happen and I dont want it too)

2. Manage on a true sub unit area.

3. Get rid of 30,000 elk and give the deer a chance to eat GOOD, PRODUCTIVE, and highly nutritional food ALL YEAR AROUND.

Anything else is lip service and a waste of time,energy and money.

Tony

 

[Hornhog2]

I live and hunt the southern region exclusivly. The effects of the 5 day hunt in the area I go were positive the very next year. It was without a doubt the best thing that could happen to that area. Within 5 years of the program, buck numbers were way up, and age class was alot better. I nearly had a come-apart when they went back to nine days. I don't have any numbers or anything to back it up, just my own experience. But one thing I KNOW, the 5 day hunt helped big time. And I think micro-managing deer herds would also help.

 

[TheOneRidgeRunner]

Seems many people only want the opportunity to hunt and don't care about the ability to harvest an animal except for a 1-3 year old deer. I hunt SE and S dureing the archery hunts and SE during the other hunts, I seen a dramatic increase of mature bucks when the five day hunts were implemented. You were able to see mature deer on winter grounds with hardly any effort.
After the first years many hunters held out for the bigger bucks only having the five days to hunt, yes many came home empty handed therefore the buck to doe ratios increased.
After the re-introduction of the nine day hunt in 2009 the deer herds mature buck numbers were void on the winter grounds because of the ability to hunt once again with a long range weapon for nine days.
The shorter seasons work and was proven in the southern and southeastern units, the ability to hunt short periods is not the funnest yet to increase the ability to hunt mature bucks is well worth it and in the long run gives you more opportunity to hunt.

 

[knoxville471]

I personally liked idaho's 4- point or better system in units that struggled. Seemed to give the deer a huge advantage to figure the humans out for a few years before the played the game of life or death. Started seeing improvements in just a couple of years.

 

[BrowningRage]

+2 swbuckmaster

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24

 

[Avsman]

What a concept, I bet Knoxville isn't a rocket scientist or anything and its amazing to me that when common scense is used it actually works, You want older deer well don't let hunters shoot them intill they are older. 3 or 4 point restriction problem solved. Now for the hard part getting a government employee that will listen to you. GOOD LUCK UTAH hope you don't mind waiting 5-6-7 years for a tag like we do here in CO.

Windage and elevation pilgrim windage and elevation

 

[slcmuley]

Everything I have heard so far about the shortened seasons in the southern units seems to be positive. I hope we can achieve the same results in the other units.

It may be the DNR's startegy to increase the age class of bucks before moving to micro management. I have a theory that Utah may be able to sustain the # of tags sold if they are spread out through 35 subunits accordingly.

We are definitely heading toward not being able to hunt every year. This year my partner and I drew northern permits as a 3rd choice. I feel alittle better about it knowing we recieved a P point for not drawing our first choice.

If the # and caliber of bucks does increase I would like to see them use antler restrictions with any increase to the length of the seasons. If the DNR is totally opposed to antler restrictions I would like to see the season extended to 7 days rather than 9. Micro managing would allow us to try several strategies at the same time depending on the needs of individual herds.

Doesn't seem like rocket science to me either. We need to quit taking care of landowners and special interest groups and think about the herds.

 

[cantkillathing]

I will agree that the 5 day hunt helped the SE region, we seen improvements each year. I do not like how the DWR is cutting everyone to 5 days, then allowing youth to hunt 9 days, give no preference and keep it all the same, 5 days for everyone.