No Big Bucks in Utah?
- Thread starter Muley_73
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alpinebowman
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He may be using a little bit of sarcasm in that statement. He has a wall full of good bucks from Utah. He just gets tired of all the whiners that say that.
alpinebowman
>>>---shots that are true pass right through--->
alpinebowman
>>>---shots that are true pass right through--->
El_Matador
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I see it as tongue-in-cheek, like maybe people will read it and give up on looking for those big bucks. After all, they don't even exist 
215Typical
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It's true!! Utah's deer management SUCKS!!! Other than 2 or 3 select units in the state which can produce a 200" buck (but takes a life-time to draw), there are very few opportunities to harvest a big muley in the state of Utah. The state manages for stupid elk, a species whose populations are at an all-time high (and they are even starting to screw that up), but has a tendency to forsake mule deer. Utah treats their mule deer like it's a dispensable resource that will always replenish itself, and its only motive is to make money. Their attitude seems to be "to hell with the future, to hell with the resource, as long as we're making money now who cares what the next 10, 20, or 30 years hold."
This seems to be the general attitude of society any more as evinced by our current economic state and the spending habits of our current government.
This seems to be the general attitude of society any more as evinced by our current economic state and the spending habits of our current government.
travishunter3006
Very Active Member
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>It's true!! Utah's deer management SUCKS!!!
>Other than 2 or 3
>select units in the state
>which can produce a 200"
>buck (but takes a life-time
>to draw), there are very
>few opportunities to harvest a
>big muley in the state
>of Utah. The state
>manages for stupid elk, a
>species whose populations are at
>an all-time high (and they
>are even starting to screw
>that up), but has a
>tendency to forsake mule deer.
> Utah treats their mule
>deer like it's a dispensable
>resource that will always replenish
>itself, and its only motive
>is to make money.
>Their attitude seems to be
>"to hell with the future,
>to hell with the resource,
>as long as we're making
>money now who cares what
>the next 10, 20, or
>30 years hold."
>
>This seems to be the general
>attitude of society any more
>as evinced by our current
>economic state and the spending
>habits of our current government.
>
you are completely wrong. i understand that as you drive over monte cristo you dont see your 200" monster... but as i have been bow hunting i have seen some toads. there are big deer every where. you just have to hunt for them. utah could use better deer managemnet, as could any other state. IMO There are more weiner whiners on here that don't put in the time for a quality hunt and on top of it all have unrealistic expectation. if you put in a "two point" amount of effort thats what you will shoot. those big bucks are big for one reason.... they aren
t stupid, it takes some effort to get on one.
so, before anybody else says that UT doenst have any deer or big bucks or it sucks... thats ok. go hunt somewhere else and leave the monsters to me. i
m fine with that.
>Other than 2 or 3
>select units in the state
>which can produce a 200"
>buck (but takes a life-time
>to draw), there are very
>few opportunities to harvest a
>big muley in the state
>of Utah. The state
>manages for stupid elk, a
>species whose populations are at
>an all-time high (and they
>are even starting to screw
>that up), but has a
>tendency to forsake mule deer.
> Utah treats their mule
>deer like it's a dispensable
>resource that will always replenish
>itself, and its only motive
>is to make money.
>Their attitude seems to be
>"to hell with the future,
>to hell with the resource,
>as long as we're making
>money now who cares what
>the next 10, 20, or
>30 years hold."
>
>This seems to be the general
>attitude of society any more
>as evinced by our current
>economic state and the spending
>habits of our current government.
>
you are completely wrong. i understand that as you drive over monte cristo you dont see your 200" monster... but as i have been bow hunting i have seen some toads. there are big deer every where. you just have to hunt for them. utah could use better deer managemnet, as could any other state. IMO There are more weiner whiners on here that don't put in the time for a quality hunt and on top of it all have unrealistic expectation. if you put in a "two point" amount of effort thats what you will shoot. those big bucks are big for one reason.... they aren
t stupid, it takes some effort to get on one.
so, before anybody else says that UT doenst have any deer or big bucks or it sucks... thats ok. go hunt somewhere else and leave the monsters to me. i
m fine with that.
AndymanSavage
Very Active Member
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It is true!! We rode wheelers around the strawberry area all day and did not see one good buck between the 6 of us on our quads.......Utah sucks!!
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T
Tagalong173
Guest
He is just being sarcastic. And making fun of all the people that say there are no big bucks in utah.
Muley_73
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I have seen some of the bucks SW has taken. I really enjoy the pics he posts. I am just not sure who that comment is aimed at? I see some really good bucks every year, even on the Cache. Im just curious who the statement is intended to poke fun at? Is it the sportmen that are concerned about the current state of the deer herd? Is is aimed at the elderly that can no longer get out and put the miles on their boots but would still enjoy seeing a few more deer. Or is it just a blanket statement saying I shoot big bucks so I am not concerned about much? Just curious?
AndymanSavage
Very Active Member
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I bet he meant to offend all those people Muley_73....and the handicapped, and vets, and probably Jews too..... way to dig down to the real intent...
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http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/
S
shootinfool
Guest
I agree, there are no big bucks in utah and the population is so far gone that everyone should stop looking for the big bucks here.....he! he!}>
swbuckmaster
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To set the record straight. The statment is a sarcastic statement! I get so tired of hearing all the whining by people that cant find big bucks or bucks period. I hear people say cut tags on the bookcliffs and the hunts ive been on out there we have seen 170-190 class bucks. Is a 170 buck a dink?
It also comes form hearing how the hunting sucks down south. Tell the Carters it sucks! lol Well I go down on the dutton and our group finds 170 buck and a 10x10 buck in 3 days of hunting it. Wish I would have brought more than a bugle and cow call on that hunt.
It comes from hearing how bad the rifle hunt is and then going out the day before the opener a few seasons ago and seeing 14 bucks in one night 4 of which were pretty decent 4 points on Timp of all places. I didn't even see a doe!
It comes from hearing how bad the northern Unit is and then going out on one scouting trip and finding a buck above Brighamcity a few years ago that had trash all over it. Must have been some kind of freak stag buck. For all I know its still there eluding the naysayers!
It comes from taking my 9 year old daughter out on scouting trips this year and last year and seeing 3 bucks on public land general tag that go over 200", several bucks over 30" wide and loads of bucks with trash.
So you fellers can call me a liar if you want but there are people in Utah that do consistently do find big bucks in Utah with a general tag in hand year after year. I am just happy to be one of those hunters. I think if my 8-9 year old daughter can do it then you adult men and women should be able to do it.
I can guarantee you the bucks I find aren't window bucks except for one, it sits next to a road loads of people drive by day in and day out. lol
How do you find big bucks year in and year out? You have to network! you have to get out of your truck! you have to put in the time! I put in 30+ days a year scouting. I put in 20+ plus days a year hunting. I have friends that hunt as hard as i do. They scout as hard as I do. We all share info. We rarely scout together or hunt together in the same day or even in the same spot. We put in our time and we dig our bucks out of the hills the blue collar way. With hard work!
All kidding aside I have never drawn a Le tag in Utah or any other state. Neither has anyone in my family. So I am a skeptic of tag cuts. I want to hunt every year! If I have to stoop to a lesser weapon so be it. Hunting is all I think about. In fact when I'm home spending time with my kids we watch mossback and other hunting videos and eat ice cream practically every night before they go to bed. Hunting is all I think about. It is a huge part of my family life. You guys probably have you kids involved in football or other sports. Well My girls are honing their hunting skills 3 times a week practicing with their bow, competing with there bows or scouting for bucks, throw in a few fishing days and you have a pretty good idea what a Weatherspoon looks like.
Some of you guys don't get my humor that's given with the remarks I read. Some of you guys don't see eye to eye with me on my political views about hunting I get that also. Some of you think I'm anti rifle "false". What I do know is if you actually met me in person you would probably be laughing your keister off. You would probably have the time of your life. You also might actually see a big buck in Utah. LOL
There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
It also comes form hearing how the hunting sucks down south. Tell the Carters it sucks! lol Well I go down on the dutton and our group finds 170 buck and a 10x10 buck in 3 days of hunting it. Wish I would have brought more than a bugle and cow call on that hunt.
It comes from hearing how bad the rifle hunt is and then going out the day before the opener a few seasons ago and seeing 14 bucks in one night 4 of which were pretty decent 4 points on Timp of all places. I didn't even see a doe!
It comes from hearing how bad the northern Unit is and then going out on one scouting trip and finding a buck above Brighamcity a few years ago that had trash all over it. Must have been some kind of freak stag buck. For all I know its still there eluding the naysayers!
It comes from taking my 9 year old daughter out on scouting trips this year and last year and seeing 3 bucks on public land general tag that go over 200", several bucks over 30" wide and loads of bucks with trash.
So you fellers can call me a liar if you want but there are people in Utah that do consistently do find big bucks in Utah with a general tag in hand year after year. I am just happy to be one of those hunters. I think if my 8-9 year old daughter can do it then you adult men and women should be able to do it.
I can guarantee you the bucks I find aren't window bucks except for one, it sits next to a road loads of people drive by day in and day out. lol
How do you find big bucks year in and year out? You have to network! you have to get out of your truck! you have to put in the time! I put in 30+ days a year scouting. I put in 20+ plus days a year hunting. I have friends that hunt as hard as i do. They scout as hard as I do. We all share info. We rarely scout together or hunt together in the same day or even in the same spot. We put in our time and we dig our bucks out of the hills the blue collar way. With hard work!
All kidding aside I have never drawn a Le tag in Utah or any other state. Neither has anyone in my family. So I am a skeptic of tag cuts. I want to hunt every year! If I have to stoop to a lesser weapon so be it. Hunting is all I think about. In fact when I'm home spending time with my kids we watch mossback and other hunting videos and eat ice cream practically every night before they go to bed. Hunting is all I think about. It is a huge part of my family life. You guys probably have you kids involved in football or other sports. Well My girls are honing their hunting skills 3 times a week practicing with their bow, competing with there bows or scouting for bucks, throw in a few fishing days and you have a pretty good idea what a Weatherspoon looks like.
Some of you guys don't get my humor that's given with the remarks I read. Some of you guys don't see eye to eye with me on my political views about hunting I get that also. Some of you think I'm anti rifle "false". What I do know is if you actually met me in person you would probably be laughing your keister off. You would probably have the time of your life. You also might actually see a big buck in Utah. LOL
There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
Muley_73
Very Active Member
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SW, do you feel the current status of the deer herd in Utah should be considered healthy? And I serious to hear your opinion. I just read that you find big bucks, and that I believe. I usually watch some really nice bucks every year in Northern and Southern. But I sure do not see the overall number of deer I use to see.
swbuckmaster
Long Time Member
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- 5,004
I think over all the buck numbers are down on most of the general units. There are some units that are better then others way better. I think the general units do need a kick start but cutting all the weapon/tags to me is like cutting off your own balls. If it were me id just cut the range of the weapons down. increase archery tags and cut rifle tags. I am a hunter and the weapon of choice is not a concern.
To tell you the truth if I could hunt every year with a rifle and hunt the caliber of bucks I see then Id do it in a heart beat. We all know we cant, so lets leave ourselves an out with a short range weapon. Lets not cut off our balls so to speak!
There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
To tell you the truth if I could hunt every year with a rifle and hunt the caliber of bucks I see then Id do it in a heart beat. We all know we cant, so lets leave ourselves an out with a short range weapon. Lets not cut off our balls so to speak!
There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
215Typical
Member
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- 31
SW, to answer your question, is a 170 buck a dink? Yes, actually it is, because usually it's a great genetic 3.5 year old deer that will never reach its full potential. And then especially to wait 6 to 8 years to draw a tag to shoot that kind of buck.
Going back to an earlier post, it's awfully presumptuous of you to think that just because someone doesn't agree with the way the state manages their mule deer that they must put in a "two point" effort when they hunt. I have never killed a two point, in fact, I have personally passed up numerous 180 class bucks and several 190 class bucks in search of something better. So it has nothing to do with my "effort" or my ability; I'm simply stating the fact that Utah's deer management is pathetic at best. Even their Limited Entry Units are over hunted (i.e. Vernon and The Bookcliffs). There are several mountain ranges (i.e. the Beaver, the Dutton, the Boulder, and the Pauvant) which if were made into a Limited Entry Units would produce the same caliber of bucks as the Henry's (and I know you're going to say, "they already do." Sure a couple a year, big deal! It could be 10 times better). By doing this, it would open up a lot of opportunities to hunters who are interested in having a quality experience and the opportunity at the buck-of-a-lifetime, but the state is unwilling to do this because it would sharply cut into their profits that they make off the tens of thousands of tags that they issue in that region, even though it would be better for the resource.
Bottomline, there are a lot of things that the state could be doing better to improve its deer herds, but it refuses to do so. No one is saying that the state doesn't produce a handful of great bucks every year. The argument is that the state is not optimizing its resources to improve the overall quality of the herd. The state continues to put money before the betterment of the resource, and that's the problem. Since the 1980s, mule deer populations have been steadily declining across the West; however, despite this fact, very few states have done much about it; and because selfish hunters refuse to sacrifice a little because it might mean that they have to go hunting every other year in their own state instead of every year, the problem will never be resolved. With that said, Colorado is one state that did finally do something about it and look at the results.
But really SW, you can't honestly say that Utah's overall deer herds and populations look healthy right now? The northeastern region's population alone is 50% of what it was 5 years ago, and 5 years ago it was 50% of what it was back in the late 1980s. My plight is simply this, if we as sportsmen and state agencies continue on the course that is currently set, 20 to 30 years from now the mule deer that we so dearly love and admire will be but few. It's a very fragile resource with a whole lot more working against it right now than for it. Sure there are agencies such as SFW and The Mule Deer Foundation, but their contributions amount to a spit in the river compared to what really needs to take place. The real change needs to come from the unity of sportsmen who are willing to put the needs of the mule deer before their own unbridled passions and egos.
I'll get off my soap box now, but thanks for allowing me to vent.
Going back to an earlier post, it's awfully presumptuous of you to think that just because someone doesn't agree with the way the state manages their mule deer that they must put in a "two point" effort when they hunt. I have never killed a two point, in fact, I have personally passed up numerous 180 class bucks and several 190 class bucks in search of something better. So it has nothing to do with my "effort" or my ability; I'm simply stating the fact that Utah's deer management is pathetic at best. Even their Limited Entry Units are over hunted (i.e. Vernon and The Bookcliffs). There are several mountain ranges (i.e. the Beaver, the Dutton, the Boulder, and the Pauvant) which if were made into a Limited Entry Units would produce the same caliber of bucks as the Henry's (and I know you're going to say, "they already do." Sure a couple a year, big deal! It could be 10 times better). By doing this, it would open up a lot of opportunities to hunters who are interested in having a quality experience and the opportunity at the buck-of-a-lifetime, but the state is unwilling to do this because it would sharply cut into their profits that they make off the tens of thousands of tags that they issue in that region, even though it would be better for the resource.
Bottomline, there are a lot of things that the state could be doing better to improve its deer herds, but it refuses to do so. No one is saying that the state doesn't produce a handful of great bucks every year. The argument is that the state is not optimizing its resources to improve the overall quality of the herd. The state continues to put money before the betterment of the resource, and that's the problem. Since the 1980s, mule deer populations have been steadily declining across the West; however, despite this fact, very few states have done much about it; and because selfish hunters refuse to sacrifice a little because it might mean that they have to go hunting every other year in their own state instead of every year, the problem will never be resolved. With that said, Colorado is one state that did finally do something about it and look at the results.
But really SW, you can't honestly say that Utah's overall deer herds and populations look healthy right now? The northeastern region's population alone is 50% of what it was 5 years ago, and 5 years ago it was 50% of what it was back in the late 1980s. My plight is simply this, if we as sportsmen and state agencies continue on the course that is currently set, 20 to 30 years from now the mule deer that we so dearly love and admire will be but few. It's a very fragile resource with a whole lot more working against it right now than for it. Sure there are agencies such as SFW and The Mule Deer Foundation, but their contributions amount to a spit in the river compared to what really needs to take place. The real change needs to come from the unity of sportsmen who are willing to put the needs of the mule deer before their own unbridled passions and egos.
I'll get off my soap box now, but thanks for allowing me to vent.
T
TINEBROTHER
Guest
I spent two weeks hunting in north eastern and north utah this year... I saw and had opportunities at at least 15 2x2's and saw 2 decent 4x4's and one big nontypical. Nothing in the middle..First year I didnt get a deer and elk in 8 yrs. curious to know what other archery hunters saw...
nontypical
Long Time Member
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215Typical-the blanket statement that a 170 buck is most likely a 3&1/2 year old buck is patently false.Many(if not the majority)of bucks will NEVER reach that size.It's simply not in their genetics to do so.Age is only a factor when allowing a buck to reach it's true potential.I would offer the opinion that a buck's age is a truer definition of a trophy than antler size is.That being said,I will take a 180" 4yr old over a 170" 5yr old any time!LOL!Did I mention there are no big deer in Utah?
H
headshot1
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LAST EDITED ON Sep-19-10 AT 12:37PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-19-10 AT 12:36?PM (MST)
there are so many tards on here! so many people that do not care whatsoever about the deer populations..people who only try to have ##### neasuring contests to say i'm better than you because i killed a bigger deer than you...yeah who cares about the population of deer lets just keep killing them off and not sacrifice any of our precious hunting time to help out the herd. what a bunch of freaking tool bags on this conversation who think they are great and mighty hunters...i agree 100 percent with the people who would like to manage the state for more deer and better deer. people like SW are just on an ego trip and trying to say how much better he is than everybody else..
there are so many tards on here! so many people that do not care whatsoever about the deer populations..people who only try to have ##### neasuring contests to say i'm better than you because i killed a bigger deer than you...yeah who cares about the population of deer lets just keep killing them off and not sacrifice any of our precious hunting time to help out the herd. what a bunch of freaking tool bags on this conversation who think they are great and mighty hunters...i agree 100 percent with the people who would like to manage the state for more deer and better deer. people like SW are just on an ego trip and trying to say how much better he is than everybody else..
swbuckmaster
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please headshot
You know all of this already cause you have so many aliases and are continually attacking me but for the rest on here I love hunting, I am a poor working class hunter. I barley have the funds to put food on the table let alone hunt any other states. So I try and stick up for my hunting rights in Utah. Just because I have a totally different outlook on Utah's hunting then you headshot doesn't mean I'm better then you just maybe work harder for it. Every year since the 1990's Ive seen the deer hunting get better. Maybe I just sucked back then and didn't see anything but I do see better deer these days. JMHO
There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
You know all of this already cause you have so many aliases and are continually attacking me but for the rest on here I love hunting, I am a poor working class hunter. I barley have the funds to put food on the table let alone hunt any other states. So I try and stick up for my hunting rights in Utah. Just because I have a totally different outlook on Utah's hunting then you headshot doesn't mean I'm better then you just maybe work harder for it. Every year since the 1990's Ive seen the deer hunting get better. Maybe I just sucked back then and didn't see anything but I do see better deer these days. JMHO
There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
2lumpy
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Could it be the desire to be sarcastic in the statement "There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL" is relative.
It could be similar to a statement like: "I never have time to hunt anymore." Taken laterally, it means, "I actually never hunt, not ever, when at one time, I did hunt."
Taken as a general statement it could mean, "I used to hunt a lot more than I do now", meaning I still hunt but RELATIVE to how much I used to hunt, or RELATIVE to how much I'd like to hunt, I hunt a lot less. I state the general condition by exaggerating the condition by stating, "I never have time to hunt anymore." as a way of expressing how frustration I am at not have the time to hunt as much as I once did or as much I still want to.
Still, it can be a flat out attempt at sarcasm, as SW has explained. Meaning in this example, "I actually hunt way more than I used to hunt." Who might make such a comment? It could be made by an over worked government trapper or professional hunter/guide that never gets a day off to see the doctor, family, BYU lose, etc. etc.
So........what's my point?
SW, it seems to me, to be poking fun at those that speak in the general or the RELATIVE way when they say ""There are no big bucks in Utah!" He say's he is laughing out loud at them. Because in fact, there are big bucks in Utah.
It doesn't seem that SW is considering that most folks that make the statement, "There are no big bucks in Utah!" they may be suggesting they don't believe there are as many big bucks as there used to be in Utah or maybe they mean there are not as many big bucks in Utah as they'd like there to be.
SW it seems, is suggesting that there are enough big bucks in Utah if you want to or like to or are willing to or able to, or have time to, or have the desire to find and harvest them the way SW believes you should or could. In that, SW is correct, if you want to or like to or are willing to or able to, or have time to, or have the desire to find and harvest deer the way SW believes you should or could, there are enough big bucks in Utah, today.
Here is the concern that some of us have. If everyone wanted to or liked to or was willing to or has able to, or had time to, or had the desire to find and harvest what few big bucks there actually are still left in Utah, what then, how long then, will it be before the sarcastic remark, "There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL" is in fact, a fact?
I am guessing SW believes it cannot or at least it will not ever happen. Regardless of whether it can't or won't happen is beside the point for some of us. Because, some of us in Utah do not want to or do not like to or are unwilling to or are unable to, or do not have time to, or do not have the desire to find and harvest mule deer the way SW believes it should or needs to be done, we worry that hunting and harvesting deer the way we used to or want to is no longer possible. We have seen and known different times and different ways, we believe there is still ample opportunity to hunt and harvest deer differently than how SW hunts and harvests deer, but if deer are not managed differently we all will need to have to hunt SW?s way, if we want see let alone harvest ?big bucks?. Of greater concerns to us is, based on the current management system, we believe soon or later even SW?s method of hunt/harvest will not generate his desired results. We believe, without more and different management not even SW?s methods will product a buck harvest for Utah deer hunters, big or otherwise.
Some of us would like to preserve, restore and reestablish mule deer more to that end than toward the current direction. We believe it is a safer place for both the Utah deer herds and the Utah deer hunters. We?d all like more hunting opportunity, who can say we don't? More opportunity is the whole point in game management
Or so it seems to me.
And muley73, stop tormenting the folks ; ), it's not becoming your other otherwise kind and peaceful nature.
Respectfully.
DC
It could be similar to a statement like: "I never have time to hunt anymore." Taken laterally, it means, "I actually never hunt, not ever, when at one time, I did hunt."
Taken as a general statement it could mean, "I used to hunt a lot more than I do now", meaning I still hunt but RELATIVE to how much I used to hunt, or RELATIVE to how much I'd like to hunt, I hunt a lot less. I state the general condition by exaggerating the condition by stating, "I never have time to hunt anymore." as a way of expressing how frustration I am at not have the time to hunt as much as I once did or as much I still want to.
Still, it can be a flat out attempt at sarcasm, as SW has explained. Meaning in this example, "I actually hunt way more than I used to hunt." Who might make such a comment? It could be made by an over worked government trapper or professional hunter/guide that never gets a day off to see the doctor, family, BYU lose, etc. etc.
So........what's my point?
SW, it seems to me, to be poking fun at those that speak in the general or the RELATIVE way when they say ""There are no big bucks in Utah!" He say's he is laughing out loud at them. Because in fact, there are big bucks in Utah.
It doesn't seem that SW is considering that most folks that make the statement, "There are no big bucks in Utah!" they may be suggesting they don't believe there are as many big bucks as there used to be in Utah or maybe they mean there are not as many big bucks in Utah as they'd like there to be.
SW it seems, is suggesting that there are enough big bucks in Utah if you want to or like to or are willing to or able to, or have time to, or have the desire to find and harvest them the way SW believes you should or could. In that, SW is correct, if you want to or like to or are willing to or able to, or have time to, or have the desire to find and harvest deer the way SW believes you should or could, there are enough big bucks in Utah, today.
Here is the concern that some of us have. If everyone wanted to or liked to or was willing to or has able to, or had time to, or had the desire to find and harvest what few big bucks there actually are still left in Utah, what then, how long then, will it be before the sarcastic remark, "There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL" is in fact, a fact?
I am guessing SW believes it cannot or at least it will not ever happen. Regardless of whether it can't or won't happen is beside the point for some of us. Because, some of us in Utah do not want to or do not like to or are unwilling to or are unable to, or do not have time to, or do not have the desire to find and harvest mule deer the way SW believes it should or needs to be done, we worry that hunting and harvesting deer the way we used to or want to is no longer possible. We have seen and known different times and different ways, we believe there is still ample opportunity to hunt and harvest deer differently than how SW hunts and harvests deer, but if deer are not managed differently we all will need to have to hunt SW?s way, if we want see let alone harvest ?big bucks?. Of greater concerns to us is, based on the current management system, we believe soon or later even SW?s method of hunt/harvest will not generate his desired results. We believe, without more and different management not even SW?s methods will product a buck harvest for Utah deer hunters, big or otherwise.
Some of us would like to preserve, restore and reestablish mule deer more to that end than toward the current direction. We believe it is a safer place for both the Utah deer herds and the Utah deer hunters. We?d all like more hunting opportunity, who can say we don't? More opportunity is the whole point in game management
Or so it seems to me.
And muley73, stop tormenting the folks ; ), it's not becoming your other otherwise kind and peaceful nature.
Respectfully.
DC
swbuckmaster
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- 5,004
2 lumpy you are correct!!
In fact we cannot continue to hunt the way we do especially if we want quality and opertunity. I have said this over and over short range weapons or limiting the range of the weapons is the only way we can have opportunity and quality. The front is a slap in the face of you guys that don't believe. Founder is one example of a guy that is seeing the light. I bet he cant literally go out and say there are no big bucks in Utah with his general tag in his pocket anymore. Ive seen his Utah videos this year. LOL I didn't even have to scout the canyons he did cause I saw his videos and new exactly where he was. So I scouted else where and covered three times the country I normally did.
Now before you guys go and twist my words and say im only an archery guy and im attacking rifle guys forget it! Im a hunter and I will adapt to what ever weapon the law requires me to use. I am also not in a fantasy land thinking we can cut tags and still hunt every year with our window guns. It simply cant happen. So maybe we as hunters can come to the table with a proposal that will increase opportunity while still increasing quality. I believe the perfect solution would be in the form of %33 rifle tags %33 muzzle loader tags %33 rifle tags. Set the cap at what ever the state feels necessary to increase the buck to doe ratios to 20 bucks per hundred does on general units!
Keep spinning it fellers Ill still get mine cause there are no big bucks in Utah lol and ill do it without a government job. Ill do it without even using a vacation day because I don't get them either. When I take a day off for myself I don't get paid. Wish I did get paid days off or vacation days because it would make paying bills way easier.
In fact we cannot continue to hunt the way we do especially if we want quality and opertunity. I have said this over and over short range weapons or limiting the range of the weapons is the only way we can have opportunity and quality. The front is a slap in the face of you guys that don't believe. Founder is one example of a guy that is seeing the light. I bet he cant literally go out and say there are no big bucks in Utah with his general tag in his pocket anymore. Ive seen his Utah videos this year. LOL I didn't even have to scout the canyons he did cause I saw his videos and new exactly where he was. So I scouted else where and covered three times the country I normally did.
Now before you guys go and twist my words and say im only an archery guy and im attacking rifle guys forget it! Im a hunter and I will adapt to what ever weapon the law requires me to use. I am also not in a fantasy land thinking we can cut tags and still hunt every year with our window guns. It simply cant happen. So maybe we as hunters can come to the table with a proposal that will increase opportunity while still increasing quality. I believe the perfect solution would be in the form of %33 rifle tags %33 muzzle loader tags %33 rifle tags. Set the cap at what ever the state feels necessary to increase the buck to doe ratios to 20 bucks per hundred does on general units!
Keep spinning it fellers Ill still get mine cause there are no big bucks in Utah lol and ill do it without a government job. Ill do it without even using a vacation day because I don't get them either. When I take a day off for myself I don't get paid. Wish I did get paid days off or vacation days because it would make paying bills way easier.
Stubaby
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,613
LAST EDITED ON Sep-19-10 AT 06:28PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-19-10 AT 06:27?PM (MST)
I lived in North Ogden until I was 26. I have lived in Montana for 4 hunting seasons now. I told myself in Utah when we used to go out in the Bear Lake area that I would never shoot a 2 point. So what happened? I never killed a deer until I moved here. Here are my $.02 since I think eventually I will be living in Utah again someday. And I know I amm gonna get killed for this...but this is the way I feel so be it.
1. Unless it is your first deer, don't kill a small(1-2 year old)deer.
2. Unless it is your first archery deer, don't ever kill another small deer for the same reason as the first.
3. There is no such thing as a freezer buck. We all know that you can go to Walmart and for as much as you spend in your tag, gas, and gear you can get more(and better meat) than a deer. Unless you have a cow elk tag and shoot them in your front yard...it is almost never cost effective to hunt.
Too many people have to kill something just to kill something. For that there are coyotes and praire dogs. And no, having a general season tag is not a slip of paper from the state asking you to kill a deer with horns. Enough deer die from hard winters, predation, and being hit by cars for anybody to feel this way.
Here is my motto: If I am not going to AT LEAST spend the $110 to euro mount it and at least put it on the garage wall then it is not big enough to shoot. A box on the shelf full of little horns sawed off with a hacksaw never got me excited.
There I said it.
By the way there are still big bucks in Utah, you just have to find them. I just wish there were more.
"That's a special feeling, Lloyd"
I lived in North Ogden until I was 26. I have lived in Montana for 4 hunting seasons now. I told myself in Utah when we used to go out in the Bear Lake area that I would never shoot a 2 point. So what happened? I never killed a deer until I moved here. Here are my $.02 since I think eventually I will be living in Utah again someday. And I know I amm gonna get killed for this...but this is the way I feel so be it.
1. Unless it is your first deer, don't kill a small(1-2 year old)deer.
2. Unless it is your first archery deer, don't ever kill another small deer for the same reason as the first.
3. There is no such thing as a freezer buck. We all know that you can go to Walmart and for as much as you spend in your tag, gas, and gear you can get more(and better meat) than a deer. Unless you have a cow elk tag and shoot them in your front yard...it is almost never cost effective to hunt.
Too many people have to kill something just to kill something. For that there are coyotes and praire dogs. And no, having a general season tag is not a slip of paper from the state asking you to kill a deer with horns. Enough deer die from hard winters, predation, and being hit by cars for anybody to feel this way.
Here is my motto: If I am not going to AT LEAST spend the $110 to euro mount it and at least put it on the garage wall then it is not big enough to shoot. A box on the shelf full of little horns sawed off with a hacksaw never got me excited.
There I said it.
By the way there are still big bucks in Utah, you just have to find them. I just wish there were more.
"That's a special feeling, Lloyd"
Why do you feel like all the dwr cares about is money? Does it go in their pocket? What does the money do besides benefit wildlife?
Back up your accusation because I'd really like to know.
There are big bucks here, you just have to work for them. We have more hunters in the field now than before. If your your sick of killing 2 points then stop shooting them! You can't put the blame all on the dwr. We are also losing a ton of winter range every year so quotas get smaller so the range can support the herd. Overpopulate it and kill the whole herd, that's a great idea. I like sw's idea of putting more tags on archery and muzz. I love to archery hunt but won't pass up a rifle or muzz hunt if it will increase my odds at a big buck. It makes a lot of sense!
Back up your accusation because I'd really like to know.
There are big bucks here, you just have to work for them. We have more hunters in the field now than before. If your your sick of killing 2 points then stop shooting them! You can't put the blame all on the dwr. We are also losing a ton of winter range every year so quotas get smaller so the range can support the herd. Overpopulate it and kill the whole herd, that's a great idea. I like sw's idea of putting more tags on archery and muzz. I love to archery hunt but won't pass up a rifle or muzz hunt if it will increase my odds at a big buck. It makes a lot of sense!
T
tabbyhntr
Guest
Lets be honest here... the 60's and 70's days Of hunting deer in Utah are long gone and will never be back. Listen to SW and how he has managed to use his head and in his own words "adapt"... it Is a constant thing one must do in order to even see let alone kill a big deer in Utah.. simply put you must "ADAPT" to be successful year after year in Utah... that or have lots of money and buy auction tags every year....lmfao!
DreaminOf200
Active Member
- Messages
- 229
>3. There is no such
>thing as a freezer buck.
> We all know that
>you can go to Walmart
>and for as much as
>you spend in your tag,
>gas, and gear you can
>get more(and better meat) than
>a deer. Unless you
>have a cow elk tag
>and shoot them in your
>front yard...it is almost never
>cost effective to hunt.
>
>Too many people have to kill
>something just to kill something.
> For that there are
>coyotes and praire dogs.
>And no, having a general
>season tag is not a
>slip of paper from the
>state asking you to kill
>a deer with horns.
>Enough deer die from hard
>winters, predation, and being hit
>by cars for anybody to
>feel this way.
>Here is my motto: If
>I am not going to
>AT LEAST spend the $110
>to euro mount it and
>at least put it on
>the garage wall then it
>is not big enough to
>shoot. A box on
>the shelf full of little
>horns sawed off with a
>hacksaw never got me excited.
Stubaby, I think you took the words out of my mouth!! A "freezer" buck or whatever you want to call it is just an excuse for many (not all) to justify pulling the trigger on something and not going home empty handed. Especially if you are a non-resident, that gets to be some expensive venison...if that's all you want.
Kids and beginners are a different subject, so hopefully no one will jump on their high horse and use this argument. I have seen waaaaay too many 2.5-3.5 year old bucks that had great potential get shot just so someone didn't have to go home empty handed. Heck, some of my best friends have been guilty of it in the past, and I made sure to give them he!! for it too! Fortunately, they are learning.
My dad and I have paid for 4 private land hunts over the last few years (yes we put in for the draws and hunt public lands too). Out of the 4 hunts, we've shot 1 buck! These hunts have ranged from $3,500 -$5,000. We passed on several 160-170 class bucks and took the only 180" deer we saw. My point is, this is not a cheap hunt, and I don't have money just flowing out of my pockets, yet I don't feel the need to shoot something just to shoot something every time I go hunting. For me, eating tag soup is part of hunting and not shooting anything is a way better management practice than shooting a 3.5 year old up-n-comer.
I could go on about this subject all night, but I won't....This is just my opinion, and I'm sure others will come on here and tell me how wrong I am....
Maybe we need to start another thread titled "freezer bucks".....that one could get pretty heated! LOL
>thing as a freezer buck.
> We all know that
>you can go to Walmart
>and for as much as
>you spend in your tag,
>gas, and gear you can
>get more(and better meat) than
>a deer. Unless you
>have a cow elk tag
>and shoot them in your
>front yard...it is almost never
>cost effective to hunt.
>
>Too many people have to kill
>something just to kill something.
> For that there are
>coyotes and praire dogs.
>And no, having a general
>season tag is not a
>slip of paper from the
>state asking you to kill
>a deer with horns.
>Enough deer die from hard
>winters, predation, and being hit
>by cars for anybody to
>feel this way.
>Here is my motto: If
>I am not going to
>AT LEAST spend the $110
>to euro mount it and
>at least put it on
>the garage wall then it
>is not big enough to
>shoot. A box on
>the shelf full of little
>horns sawed off with a
>hacksaw never got me excited.
Stubaby, I think you took the words out of my mouth!! A "freezer" buck or whatever you want to call it is just an excuse for many (not all) to justify pulling the trigger on something and not going home empty handed. Especially if you are a non-resident, that gets to be some expensive venison...if that's all you want.
Kids and beginners are a different subject, so hopefully no one will jump on their high horse and use this argument. I have seen waaaaay too many 2.5-3.5 year old bucks that had great potential get shot just so someone didn't have to go home empty handed. Heck, some of my best friends have been guilty of it in the past, and I made sure to give them he!! for it too! Fortunately, they are learning.
My dad and I have paid for 4 private land hunts over the last few years (yes we put in for the draws and hunt public lands too). Out of the 4 hunts, we've shot 1 buck! These hunts have ranged from $3,500 -$5,000. We passed on several 160-170 class bucks and took the only 180" deer we saw. My point is, this is not a cheap hunt, and I don't have money just flowing out of my pockets, yet I don't feel the need to shoot something just to shoot something every time I go hunting. For me, eating tag soup is part of hunting and not shooting anything is a way better management practice than shooting a 3.5 year old up-n-comer.
I could go on about this subject all night, but I won't....This is just my opinion, and I'm sure others will come on here and tell me how wrong I am....
Maybe we need to start another thread titled "freezer bucks".....that one could get pretty heated! LOL
Muley_73
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,781
I am not going to argue that being more selective would not help out the deer herd a ton. But their are many that feel that part of the hunt is harvesting a buck regarless of size or age. I am not one that feels I need to shoot a deer every year or everytime I have a tag. That is why is does not hurt my feelings to the point of feeling like I'm getting my balls cut off to not hunt deer every year. Some obviously feel that passing a deer or a season is to painful to do. My point of asking the question was to point out that the deer herd is in bad shape and the size of bucks one hunter sees does not discredit that fact. I have know hunters that feel, shall we say....balless if they do not kill a deer every year. We have heard from hunters that seem to feel this way if they do not get to hunt every year. The point is both are reacting to their own needs and not what is best for the deer herd.
2lumpy, I am always kind, just a little inquizative at times?
just86, I do not understand the comment about "more hunters that ever"? Since the cap the number has stayed the same which is about 50,000 less than is use to be? The DWR will support what the masses really ask for if the masses could really come together and agree on what they want. Until then they will use our shotgun opions against us, say they can not please us all.
2lumpy, I am always kind, just a little inquizative at times?
just86, I do not understand the comment about "more hunters that ever"? Since the cap the number has stayed the same which is about 50,000 less than is use to be? The DWR will support what the masses really ask for if the masses could really come together and agree on what they want. Until then they will use our shotgun opions against us, say they can not please us all.
never_catch
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,668
I think it's just his way of teasing the road hunters in the state who think there are no big bucks because they never get far enough from their wheelers and trucks to see one...
Hopefully it's tricked a few people into not applying for tags too
~Z~
Hopefully it's tricked a few people into not applying for tags too
~Z~
215Typical
Member
- Messages
- 31
>Why do you feel like all
>the dwr cares about is
>money? Does it go in
>their pocket? What does the
>money do besides benefit wildlife?
>
>
>Back up your accusation because I'd
>really like to know.
Pretty simple really. What other state do you know that offers Governor Tags, AND sportsman tags, AND 3 or 4 auction tags for each limited entry unit (tags that should be going to the general public but instead the state auctions these tags to "non-profit" organizations), AND 200 raffle tags through SFW every year?
Besides, if it's not about money why doesn't the state start managing their deer like they do their elk and start creating some additional limited entry deer units in Southern Utah? Break these units up just like the elk are currently broken up. Afterall, elk populations are at an all-time high, but deer populations have been declining for decades now but the state doesn't seem to want to face the music and do something about it.
Again, look to Colorado as an example, they have units that can be drawn every year by residents for those that just want to get out and hunt, and they have units that are managed for better quality for those who would like to invest several years and have the chance to harvest a trophy buck.
>the dwr cares about is
>money? Does it go in
>their pocket? What does the
>money do besides benefit wildlife?
>
>
>Back up your accusation because I'd
>really like to know.
Pretty simple really. What other state do you know that offers Governor Tags, AND sportsman tags, AND 3 or 4 auction tags for each limited entry unit (tags that should be going to the general public but instead the state auctions these tags to "non-profit" organizations), AND 200 raffle tags through SFW every year?
Besides, if it's not about money why doesn't the state start managing their deer like they do their elk and start creating some additional limited entry deer units in Southern Utah? Break these units up just like the elk are currently broken up. Afterall, elk populations are at an all-time high, but deer populations have been declining for decades now but the state doesn't seem to want to face the music and do something about it.
Again, look to Colorado as an example, they have units that can be drawn every year by residents for those that just want to get out and hunt, and they have units that are managed for better quality for those who would like to invest several years and have the chance to harvest a trophy buck.
215Typical
Member
- Messages
- 31
>That being said,I will take
>a 180" 4yr old over
>a 170" 5yr old any
>time!LOL!Did I mention there are
>no big deer in Utah?
nontypical, that's the difference between you and I. I have passed up 190 bucks because I knew that they were 4.5 year old bucks and that they had great potential to become something special in a year or two, which in many cases they did.
I don't have to punch my tag every year, in fact if I pass up several nice bucks and go home empty I feel satisfied because I feel that I have given back to the species that so freely gives to me. It's just a different mindset, that's all, nobody's judging you nontypical.
Did I mention that Utah's deer management sucks and that this argument isn't about there being big deer in Utah?
>a 180" 4yr old over
>a 170" 5yr old any
>time!LOL!Did I mention there are
>no big deer in Utah?
nontypical, that's the difference between you and I. I have passed up 190 bucks because I knew that they were 4.5 year old bucks and that they had great potential to become something special in a year or two, which in many cases they did.
I don't have to punch my tag every year, in fact if I pass up several nice bucks and go home empty I feel satisfied because I feel that I have given back to the species that so freely gives to me. It's just a different mindset, that's all, nobody's judging you nontypical.
Did I mention that Utah's deer management sucks and that this argument isn't about there being big deer in Utah?
swbuckmaster
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,004
I think the invention of the LE units is what has screwed up the hunting in Utah. the division used to give out way more tags 300,000 or so when I was a kid then we do now. Now half the state is LE and only lets 1000 people hunt them a year and then they jam the rest of the 90,000 hunters in the other half. Instead of taking the whole state and spreading the 100,000 hunters across the entire state. throw in the fact that the best b&c cougar units are located also in the general units and the weapons we are using can hit the deer at a 1,000 yards and wa la you got what we have now.
There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
LAST EDITED ON Sep-20-10 AT 08:58AM (MST)[p]I agree with Scott and a few others. We are now at a change point for Utah deer hunting. There are still some great deer to be had for those that work. But they are having to work harder each year for the same results. Its a continual adaption thing.
We now have weapons that hunters use right or wrong to take animals at fantastic distances. With winter range being eaten up the animals have less and less places to live.
Something has to change. There are some here on the board that cry to cut tags and make more limited entry hunts. I personally think that idea SUCKS!!!! I am now 40 and have put in for LE big game hunts since I was 16. I have NEVER drawn yet. My dad finally drew last year. So thats 1 tag so far in my family in my life time.
I think it the biggest pipe dream on the planet to think that if we cut tags we can hunt every 3-5 years.
I would love for you to tell me how we could make a book cliffs style hunt for the entire state-----jam 97,000 people into it and have me still hunt even once every 20 years? You cant do it.....
I'd also bet that the ones wanting these huge tag cuts want all of the best units put into LE status...."let them eat cake" for the rest of us.
The only other option that I can see is to push more hunters into less effective weapons. I love rifles and have a few of them. These last few years I have moved more into archery and Muzzy hunting. I love them still have a great time hunting.
I guess in my opinion, it comes down to those too options. Either restrict hunting to drawing a tag a couple more times in my life because I still dont believe that if you cut tags to get the hunt a lot of those gainsayers are looking for. Or pushing people into less effective weapons and still having oppertunity to hunt. I'll go for oppertunity every time!!!!
There really are no big bucks in the basin>>>>>
respect my authorita
We now have weapons that hunters use right or wrong to take animals at fantastic distances. With winter range being eaten up the animals have less and less places to live.
Something has to change. There are some here on the board that cry to cut tags and make more limited entry hunts. I personally think that idea SUCKS!!!! I am now 40 and have put in for LE big game hunts since I was 16. I have NEVER drawn yet. My dad finally drew last year. So thats 1 tag so far in my family in my life time.
I think it the biggest pipe dream on the planet to think that if we cut tags we can hunt every 3-5 years.
I would love for you to tell me how we could make a book cliffs style hunt for the entire state-----jam 97,000 people into it and have me still hunt even once every 20 years? You cant do it.....
I'd also bet that the ones wanting these huge tag cuts want all of the best units put into LE status...."let them eat cake" for the rest of us.
The only other option that I can see is to push more hunters into less effective weapons. I love rifles and have a few of them. These last few years I have moved more into archery and Muzzy hunting. I love them still have a great time hunting.
I guess in my opinion, it comes down to those too options. Either restrict hunting to drawing a tag a couple more times in my life because I still dont believe that if you cut tags to get the hunt a lot of those gainsayers are looking for. Or pushing people into less effective weapons and still having oppertunity to hunt. I'll go for oppertunity every time!!!!
There really are no big bucks in the basin>>>>>
respect my authorita
travishunter3006
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,065
how about you 215typical stop hunting for a few years. everyone else thats not happy with the hunting in utah can go hunt alaska or just wait a few years. all i hear is complaing about people who want a tag but dont want their neighbor or others to have one. thats when you go buy 1000 acres and get land owner tags and have at it. then you can manage who and how many deer are shot. whhaaa whhaa whhaaa people in utah like to shoot deer... they should all stop shooting little bucks... because if they shoot little ones there wont be any big ones for us to shoot... really???? is that really true??? if there are two bucks and i shoot the two point and let the bigger buck walk doesnt that mean the bigger one will still continue to spread his wealth for another year? i'm not an expert and i really dont know how to manage the herds.. but you all say cut tags..as long as you still get one. right? 215 you can start a coalition of hunters against high hunting permit #'s and yo can all boycott the dwr for a while.
This year i have passed up the chance at a handful of two points. i missed a 4 point on the archery hunt. i find bigger deer when i go in and make an effort worthy of shooting a big buck.
some present the idea that you cant walk as far or a decline in health due to age etc... and you would also like a chance to hunt a mature buck. i have heard this argument plenty of times. but how far can we go to cater to everyone? i know i'm going to get alot of crap for this, so this is up for discussion. how can we put bigger bucks into all the herds accross utah? how can we increase the over all quality of hunts? how can we cater to everyone's style of hunting?
215, i dont believe you when you say you have passed up on a 190" buck. nobody passes up a buck like that. but i do appreciate your attempt to show us how cool you are and how miuch of a great hunter you are. "cheering" from us all
This year i have passed up the chance at a handful of two points. i missed a 4 point on the archery hunt. i find bigger deer when i go in and make an effort worthy of shooting a big buck.
some present the idea that you cant walk as far or a decline in health due to age etc... and you would also like a chance to hunt a mature buck. i have heard this argument plenty of times. but how far can we go to cater to everyone? i know i'm going to get alot of crap for this, so this is up for discussion. how can we put bigger bucks into all the herds accross utah? how can we increase the over all quality of hunts? how can we cater to everyone's style of hunting?
215, i dont believe you when you say you have passed up on a 190" buck. nobody passes up a buck like that. but i do appreciate your attempt to show us how cool you are and how miuch of a great hunter you are. "cheering" from us all
backinthegame
Active Member
- Messages
- 754
215Typical...
...just as food for thought here...you mention that the DWR should convert a few areas to Limited-Entry units; areas such as Beaver, Dutton, Pahvant, etc. You say doing so would allow folks looking for opportunity to hunt big deer more options. I agree, it most certainly would.
But...how about the thousands upon thousands of hunters who couldn't possibly care less if they kill a big buck? How about the hunters who like to get out and spend time in the woods with family and friends? How about the hunters who hunt (gasp) for MEAT?
Currently, folks in Utah are not able to draw general rifle permits on a yearly basis. It stands to reason that taking units that have previously been open to general hunters and converting them to limited-entry units will further reduce general season tag numbers. Obviously this would further the issue of folks going without general tags. Of course we can't expect EVERYONE in the entire state to be able to hunt every year with current deer populations...but should we consciously make the issue of hunter opportunity worse?
You mention it's because the DWR doesn't want to give up it's revenue stream (general tags) and there is most likely some truth to that...but that's not the end all of the situation, as you suggest...at least not in my mind.
I agree with you that the limited-entry situation in Utah is weak at best...there are few units, few tags, and tons of applicants. I'm playing that game right now...I've got 9 points and not many options, even as an archer. I don't however, think that the answer lies in created more limited-entry units and further reducing general deer tags.
We all get caught up in antler size...I do too, no doubt about it. But people hunt for many reasons other than hanging a 200" buck on the wall, and we need to remember that.
...just as food for thought here...you mention that the DWR should convert a few areas to Limited-Entry units; areas such as Beaver, Dutton, Pahvant, etc. You say doing so would allow folks looking for opportunity to hunt big deer more options. I agree, it most certainly would.
But...how about the thousands upon thousands of hunters who couldn't possibly care less if they kill a big buck? How about the hunters who like to get out and spend time in the woods with family and friends? How about the hunters who hunt (gasp) for MEAT?
Currently, folks in Utah are not able to draw general rifle permits on a yearly basis. It stands to reason that taking units that have previously been open to general hunters and converting them to limited-entry units will further reduce general season tag numbers. Obviously this would further the issue of folks going without general tags. Of course we can't expect EVERYONE in the entire state to be able to hunt every year with current deer populations...but should we consciously make the issue of hunter opportunity worse?
You mention it's because the DWR doesn't want to give up it's revenue stream (general tags) and there is most likely some truth to that...but that's not the end all of the situation, as you suggest...at least not in my mind.
I agree with you that the limited-entry situation in Utah is weak at best...there are few units, few tags, and tons of applicants. I'm playing that game right now...I've got 9 points and not many options, even as an archer. I don't however, think that the answer lies in created more limited-entry units and further reducing general deer tags.
We all get caught up in antler size...I do too, no doubt about it. But people hunt for many reasons other than hanging a 200" buck on the wall, and we need to remember that.
D
DaBigBucks
Guest
I also think that typical215 has not passed up many 180-190 bucks? Not unless your hunting on the Henries. Why would you think the state is managing the deer herd poorly if your passing up bucks like that? yea right.............
travishunter3006
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,065
backinthegame
i agree with you. i believe that if the dwr converted these areas into LE units that they would in no way decrease the ammount of general season tags they sell. it would just creat a headache for those of us that dont ever draw LE tags. i guaran-dang-tee that making these areas LE's would be great for the herd size and quality, but i would say only 15% of us actually care how big they are. i have held out this year only because i have shot a few two-points in my life and a real nice 26" mature buck. my father on the other hand spends now 65 dollars and about 50 bucks in gas and shoots a deer giving him maybe 65 pounds of meat. (65 is the combo/deer tag combined ie; 30+35)
that makes it 1.77 dollars a pound. now you might say that the butcher fees are much higher.. but i cut up all my family's big game. go to askthemeatman.com and find out what the current prcing on beef is. i am guessing that its realativly the same throughout the states if not i couldnt see it being too much different, higher or lower. there its about $2.15/lb plus a processing/wrapping fee of .29 cents.
the way i see it, the average hunter of which my father most definitly IS can meat hunt and save a good chunk of change with the satisfaction that he killed and he knows whats in it when processed. (nick names for the average hunter; weekend warrior, road hunter, Utard, etc...)
i agree with you. i believe that if the dwr converted these areas into LE units that they would in no way decrease the ammount of general season tags they sell. it would just creat a headache for those of us that dont ever draw LE tags. i guaran-dang-tee that making these areas LE's would be great for the herd size and quality, but i would say only 15% of us actually care how big they are. i have held out this year only because i have shot a few two-points in my life and a real nice 26" mature buck. my father on the other hand spends now 65 dollars and about 50 bucks in gas and shoots a deer giving him maybe 65 pounds of meat. (65 is the combo/deer tag combined ie; 30+35)
that makes it 1.77 dollars a pound. now you might say that the butcher fees are much higher.. but i cut up all my family's big game. go to askthemeatman.com and find out what the current prcing on beef is. i am guessing that its realativly the same throughout the states if not i couldnt see it being too much different, higher or lower. there its about $2.15/lb plus a processing/wrapping fee of .29 cents.
the way i see it, the average hunter of which my father most definitly IS can meat hunt and save a good chunk of change with the satisfaction that he killed and he knows whats in it when processed. (nick names for the average hunter; weekend warrior, road hunter, Utard, etc...)
cannonball
Very Active Member
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(Lumpy 2 wrote: Some of us would like to preserve, restore and reestablish mule deer more to that end than toward the current direction. We believe it is a safer place for both the Utah deer herds and the Utah deer hunters. We?d all like more hunting opportunity, who can say we don't? More opportunity is the whole point in game management
Or so it seems to me.
And muley73, stop tormenting the folks ; ), it's not becoming your other otherwise kind and peaceful nature.
Respectfully.
DC)
First off Muley73 has been frequenting the Texas Roadhouse in Logan to much. The noise is affecting his brain.
On the more serious side. I was on a trail ride with a retired Utah Division of Wildlife Resource biologist and he made some interesting observations and to summarize (Lumpy 2 has some real good ideas, but I go to sleep before getting to the end so I'll keep it short). HIS OBSERVATIONS ARE:
1) Mule deer in Utah are really hurting and on the decline.
2) Mule deer are better scroungers than elk and can live on worse habitat than elk.
3) The re-vegitating of burn or railed areas are helping elk more than deer and thus in some small way hurting the deer herd.
4) And this one caught me off guard - HOUNDERS - those running hound dogs are the biggest problem we have today - two fold - one they chase cats to tree them and let them go except the old toms. They become smarter and further from the road and the females are still there to kill another day. two, they have the "new breed" of fish and game biologists and the big game board convinced there are no cougars left in "them thar hills".
Take it how you want, the only thing I know, is there are less Mule Deer in Utah today than 10 years ago and I am certain if our direction is not changed there will be less mule deer 10 years from now than today!!
Or so it seems to me.
And muley73, stop tormenting the folks ; ), it's not becoming your other otherwise kind and peaceful nature.
Respectfully.
DC)
First off Muley73 has been frequenting the Texas Roadhouse in Logan to much. The noise is affecting his brain.
On the more serious side. I was on a trail ride with a retired Utah Division of Wildlife Resource biologist and he made some interesting observations and to summarize (Lumpy 2 has some real good ideas, but I go to sleep before getting to the end so I'll keep it short). HIS OBSERVATIONS ARE:
1) Mule deer in Utah are really hurting and on the decline.
2) Mule deer are better scroungers than elk and can live on worse habitat than elk.
3) The re-vegitating of burn or railed areas are helping elk more than deer and thus in some small way hurting the deer herd.
4) And this one caught me off guard - HOUNDERS - those running hound dogs are the biggest problem we have today - two fold - one they chase cats to tree them and let them go except the old toms. They become smarter and further from the road and the females are still there to kill another day. two, they have the "new breed" of fish and game biologists and the big game board convinced there are no cougars left in "them thar hills".
Take it how you want, the only thing I know, is there are less Mule Deer in Utah today than 10 years ago and I am certain if our direction is not changed there will be less mule deer 10 years from now than today!!
Stubaby
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Very good trav. But if you don't shoot the one two point then there will be two bucks out there doing their things. So go ahead and put that 18 month old on the ground. And in Utah the other buck will run over the hill with his mom and get shot by the other hunter who wants to head down to the check station and show off his trophy. So now there are none.......and this is assuming that there are two bucks to begin with. Heaven forbid that both bucks live until the next year!
"That's a special feeling, Lloyd"
"That's a special feeling, Lloyd"
S
shootinfool
Guest
It is unfortunate that there is emphasis on a "resourse"(mule deer) here in utah that seems to be diminishing, and the real debate here is if and when someone should or can shoot a deer with smaller ANTLERS than they should shoot!?!?!? I personally enjoy the experience of getting out and scouting, even if it is only a few days a year, and hunting with good company out in the mountains. I dont really take any "vacations" each year but my vacation time gets spent on hunting year in and year out. It is something that I enjoy, reguardless of the size of deer i shoot or what weapon that I use to take the animal. I have eaten my fare share of tags, not for lack of trying, but would hate to have my opportunity cut to enjoy the thing that I love to do just so a few more people can have a chance to shoot a 190 class or bigger buck without having to work for it. I think that there are too many people that have unrealistic expectations when it comes to shooting a big buck. They have dreams of 200 inch deer but dont put in the work and the preperation time necessary to get a 200 inch buck. I think that there are far too many people that want to measure success in inches rather than experience and effort and lessons learned while doing something that they love to do.
Muley_73
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cannonball,
You are correct in that if we continue down the road we are on there will be less deer in 10 years than there are now. And regarless if the buck doe ratio is 50 to 100 and 35 of that 50 is mature bucks, less deer overall is a bad thing. But as you can see there are those out there that do not care as long as they can still hunt every year.
SW,
I agree with your points that spreading the pressure onto the primative weapon hunts would help. But just as you are unwilling to give up having a tag every year, there are those that feel just as strongly about moving to a different weapon. Why should your desire to hunt every year carry more weight than the hunter that always wants to hunt in mid October with his entire family. Both of you are passionate about hunting and want to enjoy it as much as possible, however the focus should be what is best for the herd. Not what keeps every person happy? Personally I would not like to see an increase in overall archery tags. I quit archery hunting because I was sick of all the hunters. Archers are for the most part a little more decicated than the rifle and muzz hunters. After the opening weekend the rifle and muzz hunters fade away. Not the archers they will pound it all season long. I would rather have all tag numbers cut and maybe only hunt every other year with a bow with less pressure. Again this is just my view of things from the areas I hunt and they differ greatly from yours.
You are correct in that if we continue down the road we are on there will be less deer in 10 years than there are now. And regarless if the buck doe ratio is 50 to 100 and 35 of that 50 is mature bucks, less deer overall is a bad thing. But as you can see there are those out there that do not care as long as they can still hunt every year.
SW,
I agree with your points that spreading the pressure onto the primative weapon hunts would help. But just as you are unwilling to give up having a tag every year, there are those that feel just as strongly about moving to a different weapon. Why should your desire to hunt every year carry more weight than the hunter that always wants to hunt in mid October with his entire family. Both of you are passionate about hunting and want to enjoy it as much as possible, however the focus should be what is best for the herd. Not what keeps every person happy? Personally I would not like to see an increase in overall archery tags. I quit archery hunting because I was sick of all the hunters. Archers are for the most part a little more decicated than the rifle and muzz hunters. After the opening weekend the rifle and muzz hunters fade away. Not the archers they will pound it all season long. I would rather have all tag numbers cut and maybe only hunt every other year with a bow with less pressure. Again this is just my view of things from the areas I hunt and they differ greatly from yours.
AspenAdventures
Very Active Member
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How many bucks made the B&C from Utah last year?
How many bucks made the B&C from Colorado last year?
Nevada?
I don't know the numbers but my hunch is that Colorado will dominate Utah. What does that say about Utah's ABUNDANCE of BIG BUCKS?
"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
How many bucks made the B&C from Colorado last year?
Nevada?
I don't know the numbers but my hunch is that Colorado will dominate Utah. What does that say about Utah's ABUNDANCE of BIG BUCKS?
"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
It says that Utah will NEVER compete with Colorado for BC entries. Utah simply doesnt have the range for Deer that Colorado does. I love how people always compare Utah to colorado or even Wyoming. If we only did this we could be just like them. Its not going to happen. Colorado has great deer country from one end of the state to the other. Wyoming is pretty much the same. Not that hard to grow deer in either place. They will always have a lot more deer than we do.
Utah has much less habitat for deer. Cant grow them in any big numbers in lots of the desert areas.
You can find pretty good bucks in Utah though if you look.
respect my authorita
Utah has much less habitat for deer. Cant grow them in any big numbers in lots of the desert areas.
You can find pretty good bucks in Utah though if you look.
respect my authorita
cannonball
Very Active Member
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I need to clarify what the retired biologist said on the second part of my number 4.
He said that the hounders were convincing the biologists that there were not many lions left. He said that is contrary to what he has seen and the numbers are way up. He said they are just whining to save there passion of pursuit. He is still active in game management on a part time basis and is a very respect authority.
This leads me into a story which was just told to me. The person I was talking with has a cabin above Salina. He was sitting in has front room and two cougars came down and got a drink in his water trough left and then another cougar came and got a drink. Very few deer or elk in that region anymore.
He said that the hounders were convincing the biologists that there were not many lions left. He said that is contrary to what he has seen and the numbers are way up. He said they are just whining to save there passion of pursuit. He is still active in game management on a part time basis and is a very respect authority.
This leads me into a story which was just told to me. The person I was talking with has a cabin above Salina. He was sitting in has front room and two cougars came down and got a drink in his water trough left and then another cougar came and got a drink. Very few deer or elk in that region anymore.
Muley_73
I know that you want everyone to feel your pain on the deer hunts. But why are you asking for restrictions on tag numbers for weapons that dont have anywhere near the success rate as the any weapon hunt?
Since you brought up the archery hunt lets talk about that. Archery success rates on the general hunts are low. No matter how you want to call it, this hunt lots of hunters tags with a much lower success rate than any other weapon.
As for chasing deer on a longer season, just how is that hurting the deer herd? I have talked with Anis a few times and he explained to us that deer are a prey species. They are on alert getting chased by something every day of the year. Also there are few enough archers that they arent all getting chased all of the time anyway. This overall doesnt hurt the herd. And once again you are getting lots of hunters out in the field getting hunting time without the success rate which is not all that bad for the resource.
Also, how are you thinking that if we cut tags you'd get to hunt every other year??????? I know several guys who didnt draw out on the Archery hunt this year. In Southern Utah it takes 2-3 years to draw out now for ML and Any Weapon. The tag cuts that you want will get you an average hunt every 5 years if you are lucky and 10 if you are me.
All of this aside, I think if you really want to make a HUGE difference in the deer herd figure out a way to stop cars from hitting deer. There are MANY times more deer hit by cars every year than killed by archers.
Those are my opinions, but I get a little stressed out everytime guys preach cutting tags. I love to hunt and its pretty much THE thing that I look forward to every year. I dont really have the cash to hunt a lot of other places so this is it. I dont care what weapon I hunt with and would probabally but up my bow and go gun only if there were only the oppertunity to hunt once every so many years for a short season.
I'd rather try to find other less successful ways to get in the field more often and still hunt.
respect my authorita
I know that you want everyone to feel your pain on the deer hunts. But why are you asking for restrictions on tag numbers for weapons that dont have anywhere near the success rate as the any weapon hunt?
Since you brought up the archery hunt lets talk about that. Archery success rates on the general hunts are low. No matter how you want to call it, this hunt lots of hunters tags with a much lower success rate than any other weapon.
As for chasing deer on a longer season, just how is that hurting the deer herd? I have talked with Anis a few times and he explained to us that deer are a prey species. They are on alert getting chased by something every day of the year. Also there are few enough archers that they arent all getting chased all of the time anyway. This overall doesnt hurt the herd. And once again you are getting lots of hunters out in the field getting hunting time without the success rate which is not all that bad for the resource.
Also, how are you thinking that if we cut tags you'd get to hunt every other year??????? I know several guys who didnt draw out on the Archery hunt this year. In Southern Utah it takes 2-3 years to draw out now for ML and Any Weapon. The tag cuts that you want will get you an average hunt every 5 years if you are lucky and 10 if you are me.
All of this aside, I think if you really want to make a HUGE difference in the deer herd figure out a way to stop cars from hitting deer. There are MANY times more deer hit by cars every year than killed by archers.
Those are my opinions, but I get a little stressed out everytime guys preach cutting tags. I love to hunt and its pretty much THE thing that I look forward to every year. I dont really have the cash to hunt a lot of other places so this is it. I dont care what weapon I hunt with and would probabally but up my bow and go gun only if there were only the oppertunity to hunt once every so many years for a short season.
I'd rather try to find other less successful ways to get in the field more often and still hunt.
respect my authorita
AspenAdventures
Very Active Member
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cannonball, you are a fool
here are some numbers
Colorado Deer Population = 700,000
Utah Deer Population = 350,000
We have half as many deer but 90% less B&C entries.
Eat that and stick it to your authoritaaa
"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
here are some numbers
Colorado Deer Population = 700,000
Utah Deer Population = 350,000
We have half as many deer but 90% less B&C entries.
Eat that and stick it to your authoritaaa
"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
N
never_satisfied
Guest
Here are some numbers for everyone to ponder.There are 84,000 buck deer hunters in utah.
If we gave all 84,000 deer tags to a any weapon hunt.It is at 28% successes that would be 23,520 deer killed
If we gave all 84,000 buck deer tags to a archery hunt.It is at 20% successes that would be 16,800 deer killed
That is a deference of 6,720 deer left to rome the mountain.That might be a good start but will take us along time to get to where we need to be.(these numbers are on the DWR website)
Maybe one day we can start a subject titled "utah mule deer" that will get us all together to solve the problem rather then do this who's "GUN" is bigger then who's.
Are kids and grand kids are kind of depending on us
If we gave all 84,000 deer tags to a any weapon hunt.It is at 28% successes that would be 23,520 deer killed
If we gave all 84,000 buck deer tags to a archery hunt.It is at 20% successes that would be 16,800 deer killed
That is a deference of 6,720 deer left to rome the mountain.That might be a good start but will take us along time to get to where we need to be.(these numbers are on the DWR website)
Maybe one day we can start a subject titled "utah mule deer" that will get us all together to solve the problem rather then do this who's "GUN" is bigger then who's.
Are kids and grand kids are kind of depending on us
swbuckmaster
Long Time Member
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that is only if the 84,000 archers could get a buck. Id say if you gave those same 84,000 rifle tags holders and make them shoot a bow the success rate would go way down. They simply dont have the skill to get it done. that many more archers hitting the hills would screw each other up. The bucks would get into a canyon where they could not get hunted like they can with a rifle. If I didnt have the proof that the front works I would certainly agree with you that those 84,000 hunters would still kill the same as a rifle hunter. But the facts are a archery only area has Henry quality deer and Le buck to doe ratios 37/100 However 10,000 people can hunt the archery only areas and 30 or so can hunt the henrys.
BIG DIFFERENCE!
I am in no way saying f the rifle guy I'm actually saying make it fare %33archery %33muzzy and %33rifle.
There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
BIG DIFFERENCE!
I am in no way saying f the rifle guy I'm actually saying make it fare %33archery %33muzzy and %33rifle.
There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
N
never_satisfied
Guest
SW
"They simply don't have the skills to get it done."
That's the my "GUN" is bigger then your talk I was talking about
But still are kids and grand kids are waiting for your next comment.I hope it's one that might work
"They simply don't have the skills to get it done."
That's the my "GUN" is bigger then your talk I was talking about
But still are kids and grand kids are waiting for your next comment.I hope it's one that might work
swbuckmaster
Long Time Member
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>SW
>"They simply don't have the skills
>to get it done."
>That's the my "GUN" is bigger
>then your talk I was
>talking about
>
>But still are kids and grand
>kids are waiting for your
>next comment.I hope it's one
>that might work
no that is not my gun is bigger than your gun talk. Its the facts. You know it and I know it. Your just looking to stir the pot.
Im not going to go into a lot details here but anyone can purchase a box of shells and a rifle and go out and hit a deer at 200-300 yards with little practice. It will be a lot harder with archery equipment. It will also take a heck of a lot more time to get it done. Most hunters dont have the time and that is why you see trucks going south on friday and north on sunday. Most Utah hunters only spend a weekend a year to hunt.
If you pick up any hunting proclamation of just about any state back east and you will see there are plenty of states where they limit the range of the weapons to archery, shot gun with slugs, or muzzle loaders. They have lots of deer and some of those states you can shoot what 6 deer a year. Shorting your weapons will work in Utah because it already has. The Front is undeniable proof. It also doesn't need SFW money!
There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
>"They simply don't have the skills
>to get it done."
>That's the my "GUN" is bigger
>then your talk I was
>talking about
>
>But still are kids and grand
>kids are waiting for your
>next comment.I hope it's one
>that might work
no that is not my gun is bigger than your gun talk. Its the facts. You know it and I know it. Your just looking to stir the pot.
Im not going to go into a lot details here but anyone can purchase a box of shells and a rifle and go out and hit a deer at 200-300 yards with little practice. It will be a lot harder with archery equipment. It will also take a heck of a lot more time to get it done. Most hunters dont have the time and that is why you see trucks going south on friday and north on sunday. Most Utah hunters only spend a weekend a year to hunt.
If you pick up any hunting proclamation of just about any state back east and you will see there are plenty of states where they limit the range of the weapons to archery, shot gun with slugs, or muzzle loaders. They have lots of deer and some of those states you can shoot what 6 deer a year. Shorting your weapons will work in Utah because it already has. The Front is undeniable proof. It also doesn't need SFW money!
There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
AspenAdventures
Very Active Member
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LAST EDITED ON Sep-22-10 AT 05:33AM (MST)[p]I hate shooting a bow
i love the smell of gunsmoke
the state is never going to go 100% archery.
However, your numbers make sense and it would help things.
I love hunting Nevada. Why not put the state on a tight draw just like Nevada?
Are there big bucks here? Yes...in the general areas....but I get tired of hunting them with 20 other guys in the same canyon after I just packed in 5 miles and climbed 3000 verticle.
MANAGE the deer for deer.....I wish the state could turn a blind eye to money.
"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
i love the smell of gunsmoke
the state is never going to go 100% archery.
However, your numbers make sense and it would help things.
I love hunting Nevada. Why not put the state on a tight draw just like Nevada?
Are there big bucks here? Yes...in the general areas....but I get tired of hunting them with 20 other guys in the same canyon after I just packed in 5 miles and climbed 3000 verticle.
MANAGE the deer for deer.....I wish the state could turn a blind eye to money.
"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
travishunter3006
Very Active Member
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i find it interesting that many on here believe that its just a money game. all the state cares about is money... well if they didn't sell any tags then there wouldnt be any money to manage anything related to hunting in the state. the state cant turn a blind eye to the revenue that selling permits generates. plus, tags used to be 40 or 45 dollars i remember, now they are only 35. ( I know we have to buy combo/hunting licenses on top of it all)
Muley_73
Very Active Member
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Other states are funded independent of tag sells. Utah DWR is funded mostly by tags sells. There is your big difference.
I agree 100% that going and equal 3 way split would help. But then you would still have a huge wait for rifle and muzzy tags. You then force, as SW pointed out, less proficient hunters into the archery hunt. I'm not convinced that is a good thing?
I guess I argee with many of you that there are many options to help the deer herd other than cutting tag numbers.
3 point or better(yes I'm already ducking)
Shift in tag alocation
Better predator control
Better winter range
Better highway fencing
Yes I believe that all of these will have a positive impact. However the state has not pursued or at least stuck with any of these things in the past to the point of success so I am willing to try something else. The biggest difference that we all seem to have is some are willing to sit out a year or two for the chance that it could help the herd and others feel that is just way to much to ask. Their personal fulfilment each year out weighs the possible future continued decline of Utahs deer herd. Pretty sad situation anyway you cut for both sides!
There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
I agree 100% that going and equal 3 way split would help. But then you would still have a huge wait for rifle and muzzy tags. You then force, as SW pointed out, less proficient hunters into the archery hunt. I'm not convinced that is a good thing?
I guess I argee with many of you that there are many options to help the deer herd other than cutting tag numbers.
3 point or better(yes I'm already ducking)
Shift in tag alocation
Better predator control
Better winter range
Better highway fencing
Yes I believe that all of these will have a positive impact. However the state has not pursued or at least stuck with any of these things in the past to the point of success so I am willing to try something else. The biggest difference that we all seem to have is some are willing to sit out a year or two for the chance that it could help the herd and others feel that is just way to much to ask. Their personal fulfilment each year out weighs the possible future continued decline of Utahs deer herd. Pretty sad situation anyway you cut for both sides!
There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
215Typical
Member
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- 31
travishunter and DaBigBucks,
I can understand if you don't believe me about passing 190" bucks, and quite frankly, if I didn't understand someone else's background I probably wouldn't believe them either. So let me explain a few things.
I grew up under significantly different circumstances than most sportsmen. My father has been an outfitter for over 25 years and is a mule deer FANATIC, and from the time I was 5 years old he and I have spent countless hours in the field scouting and studying mule deer in some very special parts of the West (i.e. Wyoming and the Paunsaugunt in the 90s, Colorado and The Henry's the last 10 years, the AZ Strip, and a myriad of other places), so I grew up seeing and being around big bucks my whole life. My father taught me about the importance of conservative mule deer management as he always felt that mule deer were a very fragile species and a resource that we wouldn't always have to enjoy unless sportsmen took responsibility to preserve it. My views are probably more conservative than most concerning mule deer management, which undoubtedly comes from my background. I view hunting as a PRIVILEGE, NOT AN ENTITLEMENT, and therefore I don't feel like I have to have a permit every year; in fact, I only draw a general tag about every 2 to 3 years (so I do sacrifice and I do take my turn).
I've passed two 190" class bucks in the last five years. One in 2005 and one in 2007. The buck I passed in 2005, I only passed because we had pre-scouted a typical that we felt confident would net in the high 190s. He had awesome 5" bladed eyeguards and a ton of mass. I've always wanted to kill a net-book typical and I felt that this was my opportunity. It was opening morning and this 190" class buck stepped out at about 350 yards. Because I had my sights set on the book typical it was an easy decision not to let the air out of him. We hunted hard for the next 7 days and never turned up the big typical again (I guess that's why he's big). I ended up burning the tag, and yes I was disappointed that I didn't take the 190" buck on the opener; but that's hunting! During that same hunt I passed two other bucks that would have grossed somewhere between 180-185.
The 190" buck I passed in 2007 I just didn't like. He was way narrow (I hate narrow bucks) and he had NO mass (I'm a nut about mass), but he did have monster forks and a few small extras. He looked young and like he had a ton of potential, so I let him walk. It was a difficult decision but I just knew that once I walked up to him that I wouldn't appreciate him like the buck deserved. We did find him the next year and my friend killed him. He grossed a little over 200". He sent the teeth into the state and the age came back at 5.5 years old, he was still fairly young.
On a slightly different note, "BIG" is a relative term depending on your background and experience. I have a cousin who's dream is to kill a 26", 165 class buck - to him, that is "BIG". But if you asked Ryan Hatch, Tory Brock, Dave Anderson, Mike Brownly, Steve Alderman, Clay Bundy, Chad Smith, or Doyle Moss what "BIG" is; then a completely new level of standard or benchmark will be set. For me personally, a 170" to 190" class buck is a "nice" deer, but it's not "BIG".
I don't tell you this to boast or to be "cool", I'm simply trying to help you better understand why our viewpoints differ. I was fortunate enough to have a father who bent over backwards to share his passion for monster mule deer with his son. As a result I've seen and continue to see numerous "BIG" muleys every year. I don't feel that there is a right or wrong stance on this topic, we just have different standards of "BIG", that's all.
I can understand if you don't believe me about passing 190" bucks, and quite frankly, if I didn't understand someone else's background I probably wouldn't believe them either. So let me explain a few things.
I grew up under significantly different circumstances than most sportsmen. My father has been an outfitter for over 25 years and is a mule deer FANATIC, and from the time I was 5 years old he and I have spent countless hours in the field scouting and studying mule deer in some very special parts of the West (i.e. Wyoming and the Paunsaugunt in the 90s, Colorado and The Henry's the last 10 years, the AZ Strip, and a myriad of other places), so I grew up seeing and being around big bucks my whole life. My father taught me about the importance of conservative mule deer management as he always felt that mule deer were a very fragile species and a resource that we wouldn't always have to enjoy unless sportsmen took responsibility to preserve it. My views are probably more conservative than most concerning mule deer management, which undoubtedly comes from my background. I view hunting as a PRIVILEGE, NOT AN ENTITLEMENT, and therefore I don't feel like I have to have a permit every year; in fact, I only draw a general tag about every 2 to 3 years (so I do sacrifice and I do take my turn).
I've passed two 190" class bucks in the last five years. One in 2005 and one in 2007. The buck I passed in 2005, I only passed because we had pre-scouted a typical that we felt confident would net in the high 190s. He had awesome 5" bladed eyeguards and a ton of mass. I've always wanted to kill a net-book typical and I felt that this was my opportunity. It was opening morning and this 190" class buck stepped out at about 350 yards. Because I had my sights set on the book typical it was an easy decision not to let the air out of him. We hunted hard for the next 7 days and never turned up the big typical again (I guess that's why he's big). I ended up burning the tag, and yes I was disappointed that I didn't take the 190" buck on the opener; but that's hunting! During that same hunt I passed two other bucks that would have grossed somewhere between 180-185.
The 190" buck I passed in 2007 I just didn't like. He was way narrow (I hate narrow bucks) and he had NO mass (I'm a nut about mass), but he did have monster forks and a few small extras. He looked young and like he had a ton of potential, so I let him walk. It was a difficult decision but I just knew that once I walked up to him that I wouldn't appreciate him like the buck deserved. We did find him the next year and my friend killed him. He grossed a little over 200". He sent the teeth into the state and the age came back at 5.5 years old, he was still fairly young.
On a slightly different note, "BIG" is a relative term depending on your background and experience. I have a cousin who's dream is to kill a 26", 165 class buck - to him, that is "BIG". But if you asked Ryan Hatch, Tory Brock, Dave Anderson, Mike Brownly, Steve Alderman, Clay Bundy, Chad Smith, or Doyle Moss what "BIG" is; then a completely new level of standard or benchmark will be set. For me personally, a 170" to 190" class buck is a "nice" deer, but it's not "BIG".
I don't tell you this to boast or to be "cool", I'm simply trying to help you better understand why our viewpoints differ. I was fortunate enough to have a father who bent over backwards to share his passion for monster mule deer with his son. As a result I've seen and continue to see numerous "BIG" muleys every year. I don't feel that there is a right or wrong stance on this topic, we just have different standards of "BIG", that's all.
Cass
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,328
Utah's Big game management is rediculous. I spent quite a while on Monroe this year and to see the deer herd was absolutely disgusting. The elk are dwindling as well. Look at what they did to the fish lake elk herd a few years ago. Why in the world would you give out spike elk tags and 5 point or less tags in a limited entry elk unit. Stupid, Plain stupid. The few elk hunters i ran into all agreed that the deer herd has been slaughtered and if utah thinks that limiting the hunting days of the hunts and demolishing some roads is going to bring the deer back they are sorely mistaken. What they need to do it establish a draw like Nevada has, Limit the hunters per unit instead of giving out hundreds of thousands of tags.
-Cass
-Cass
215Typical
Member
- Messages
- 31
>I also think that typical215 has
>not passed up many 180-190
>bucks? Not unless your hunting
>on the Henries. Why would
>you think the state is
>managing the deer herd poorly
>if your passing up bucks
>like that? yea right.............
For: travishunter and DaBigBucks,
Why settle for mediocrity when Utah has the habitat and resources to be extraordinary? Why be complacent with a 170" or 180" buck when the state has areas/mountain ranges with the potential to consistently produce 200"+?
I can understand if you don't believe me about passing 190" bucks, and quite frankly, if I didn't understand someone else's background I probably wouldn't believe them either. So let me explain a few things.
I grew up under significantly different circumstances than most sportsmen. My father has been an outfitter for over 25 years and is a mule deer FANATIC, and from the time I was 5 years old he and I have spent countless hours in the field scouting and studying mule deer in some very special parts of the West (i.e. Wyoming and the Paunsaugunt in the 90s, Colorado and The Henry's the last 10 years, the AZ Strip, and a myriad of other places), so I grew up seeing and being around big bucks my whole life. My father taught me about the importance of conservative mule deer management as he always felt that mule deer were a very fragile species and a resource that we wouldn't always have to enjoy unless sportsmen took responsibility to preserve it. My views are probably more conservative than most concerning mule deer management, which undoubtedly comes from my background. I view hunting as a PRIVILEGE, NOT AN ENTITLEMENT, and therefore I don't feel like I have to have a permit every year; in fact, I only draw a general tag about every 2 to 3 years (so I do sacrifice and I do take my turn).
I've passed two 190" class bucks in the last five years. One in 2005 and one in 2007. The buck I passed in 2005, I only passed because we had pre-scouted a typical that we felt confident would easily net in the high 190s. He had awesome 5" bladed eyeguards and a ton of mass. I've always wanted to kill a net-book typical and I felt that this was my opportunity. It was opening morning and this 190" class buck stepped out at about 350 yards. Because I had my sights set on the book typical it was an easy decision not to let the air out of him. We hunted hard for the next 7 days and never turned up the big typical again (I guess that's why he's big). I ended up burning the tag, and yes I was disappointed that I didn't take the 190" buck on the opener; but that's hunting! During that same hunt I passed two other bucks that would have grossed somewhere between 180-185.
The 190" buck I passed in 2007 I just didn't like. He was way narrow (I hate narrow bucks) and he had NO mass (I'm a nut about mass), but he did have monster forks and a few small extras. He looked young and like he had a ton of potential, so I let him walk. It was a difficult decision but I just knew that once I walked up to him that I wouldn't appreciate him like the buck deserved. We did find him the next year and my friend killed him. He grossed a little over 200". He sent the teeth into the state and the age came back at 5.5 years old, he was still fairly young.
On a slightly different note, "BIG" is a relative term depending on your background and experience. I have a cousin who's dream is to kill a 26", 165 class buck - to him, that is "BIG". But if you asked Ryan Hatch, Tory Brock, Dave Anderson, Mike Brownly, Steve Alderman, Clay Bundy, Chad Smith, or Doyle Moss what "BIG" is; then a completely new level of standard or benchmark will be set. For me personally, a 170" to 190" class buck is a "nice" deer, but it's not "BIG".
I don't tell you this to boast or to be "cool", I'm simply trying to help you better understand why our viewpoints differ. I was fortunate enough to have a father who bent over backwards to share his passion for monster mule deer with his son. As a result I've seen and continue to see numerous "BIG" muleys every year. I don't feel that there is a right or wrong stance on this topic, we just have different standards of "BIG", that's all.
>not passed up many 180-190
>bucks? Not unless your hunting
>on the Henries. Why would
>you think the state is
>managing the deer herd poorly
>if your passing up bucks
>like that? yea right.............
For: travishunter and DaBigBucks,
Why settle for mediocrity when Utah has the habitat and resources to be extraordinary? Why be complacent with a 170" or 180" buck when the state has areas/mountain ranges with the potential to consistently produce 200"+?
I can understand if you don't believe me about passing 190" bucks, and quite frankly, if I didn't understand someone else's background I probably wouldn't believe them either. So let me explain a few things.
I grew up under significantly different circumstances than most sportsmen. My father has been an outfitter for over 25 years and is a mule deer FANATIC, and from the time I was 5 years old he and I have spent countless hours in the field scouting and studying mule deer in some very special parts of the West (i.e. Wyoming and the Paunsaugunt in the 90s, Colorado and The Henry's the last 10 years, the AZ Strip, and a myriad of other places), so I grew up seeing and being around big bucks my whole life. My father taught me about the importance of conservative mule deer management as he always felt that mule deer were a very fragile species and a resource that we wouldn't always have to enjoy unless sportsmen took responsibility to preserve it. My views are probably more conservative than most concerning mule deer management, which undoubtedly comes from my background. I view hunting as a PRIVILEGE, NOT AN ENTITLEMENT, and therefore I don't feel like I have to have a permit every year; in fact, I only draw a general tag about every 2 to 3 years (so I do sacrifice and I do take my turn).
I've passed two 190" class bucks in the last five years. One in 2005 and one in 2007. The buck I passed in 2005, I only passed because we had pre-scouted a typical that we felt confident would easily net in the high 190s. He had awesome 5" bladed eyeguards and a ton of mass. I've always wanted to kill a net-book typical and I felt that this was my opportunity. It was opening morning and this 190" class buck stepped out at about 350 yards. Because I had my sights set on the book typical it was an easy decision not to let the air out of him. We hunted hard for the next 7 days and never turned up the big typical again (I guess that's why he's big). I ended up burning the tag, and yes I was disappointed that I didn't take the 190" buck on the opener; but that's hunting! During that same hunt I passed two other bucks that would have grossed somewhere between 180-185.
The 190" buck I passed in 2007 I just didn't like. He was way narrow (I hate narrow bucks) and he had NO mass (I'm a nut about mass), but he did have monster forks and a few small extras. He looked young and like he had a ton of potential, so I let him walk. It was a difficult decision but I just knew that once I walked up to him that I wouldn't appreciate him like the buck deserved. We did find him the next year and my friend killed him. He grossed a little over 200". He sent the teeth into the state and the age came back at 5.5 years old, he was still fairly young.
On a slightly different note, "BIG" is a relative term depending on your background and experience. I have a cousin who's dream is to kill a 26", 165 class buck - to him, that is "BIG". But if you asked Ryan Hatch, Tory Brock, Dave Anderson, Mike Brownly, Steve Alderman, Clay Bundy, Chad Smith, or Doyle Moss what "BIG" is; then a completely new level of standard or benchmark will be set. For me personally, a 170" to 190" class buck is a "nice" deer, but it's not "BIG".
I don't tell you this to boast or to be "cool", I'm simply trying to help you better understand why our viewpoints differ. I was fortunate enough to have a father who bent over backwards to share his passion for monster mule deer with his son. As a result I've seen and continue to see numerous "BIG" muleys every year. I don't feel that there is a right or wrong stance on this topic, we just have different standards of "BIG", that's all.
T
tstewy
Guest
Ok i think this is simple here is my thought you have got to shrink the units to where you can manage a specfic herd. I agree with sw and jstr move the tags around so there are less rifle but if an area is below the stated objective than you have to cut tags or move them around to get the herd to the objective i would dare say most units in the ne where i hunt are way below objective. so if they are should tag cuts or redistrabuiton of the tags follow? we have got to start managing for the herds and follow the herd objectivs. so i am in favor of managing indvidual herds on herd by herd basis. ie southslope vernal, strawberry, southslope yellowstone etc. dont make it is like the books but atleast make sure the herds in those areas are at objective i think around 15 bucks per 100 does post season would be a start.
AspenAdventures
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,889
The answer is simple
smaller units
just like wyoming, colorado, nevada....limit the hunters....get buck to doe ratios to 25/100
I dont know what idiot in the state thinks that 15/100 is a good management objective but that is their goal on the Wasatch....idiots!
"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
smaller units
just like wyoming, colorado, nevada....limit the hunters....get buck to doe ratios to 25/100
I dont know what idiot in the state thinks that 15/100 is a good management objective but that is their goal on the Wasatch....idiots!
"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
Cannonball
Your comment about cougars is funny. I'm not sure where your retired dwr friend is from but I would gladly buy him and his mrs. a steak dinner for every fresh lion track he could show me so I can try to keep a dog trained.
The thing I noticed about your statement was retired dwr employee: Yea they have to blame the deer herds on something besides themselves. Typical Government answer.
Your comment about cougars is funny. I'm not sure where your retired dwr friend is from but I would gladly buy him and his mrs. a steak dinner for every fresh lion track he could show me so I can try to keep a dog trained.
The thing I noticed about your statement was retired dwr employee: Yea they have to blame the deer herds on something besides themselves. Typical Government answer.
liecabucks
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,182
LFMAO....This is almost par for every government employee.
Sit tall in the saddle, hold your head up high, keep your eyes fixed to where the trail meets the sky...
Sit tall in the saddle, hold your head up high, keep your eyes fixed to where the trail meets the sky...
W
Wildman
Guest
Just for everyone's information, the claim that archery hunters are much less successful than gun hunters is somewhat misleading. In 2008, the overall success rates for archery hunters in Utah was 19%. The overall success rate for gun hunters was 27%. Although the archery success was less than the rifle success, it was less than 10%. To base a game management plan on this concept is pretty shaky.
The reality is that yes it is harder to kill a deer with a bow all things equal, but all things are not equal. For starters, the bow hunt is almost a month long. That means archery hunters have about seven times as much time to hunt. At these odds, I could kill a deer every year with a rock if you gave me seven times as much time to do it as an archer gets.
Second, archers get the first crack at it. There may be a lot of you that are trophy hunters, but there are a lot of archery hunters who are not. The reality is that the opening weekend of archery season is a lot like the opening weekend of the rifle hunt used to be. All those dumb two points standing along side of the road are going down- you just don't heard all the shooting like we used to opening morning of the rifle hunt.
Third, you just see more deer at that time of year. When I am out scouting during archery season, I can put my spotting scope on big deer much more frequently than two months later. Everyone knows the hardest part of shooting a big buck is finding him. Spotting big bucks in August is much easier than in October.
In the end, the lethality of weapon is not as big a factor as most people think. Less than 10% statewide is not a game changer.
The reality is that yes it is harder to kill a deer with a bow all things equal, but all things are not equal. For starters, the bow hunt is almost a month long. That means archery hunters have about seven times as much time to hunt. At these odds, I could kill a deer every year with a rock if you gave me seven times as much time to do it as an archer gets.
Second, archers get the first crack at it. There may be a lot of you that are trophy hunters, but there are a lot of archery hunters who are not. The reality is that the opening weekend of archery season is a lot like the opening weekend of the rifle hunt used to be. All those dumb two points standing along side of the road are going down- you just don't heard all the shooting like we used to opening morning of the rifle hunt.
Third, you just see more deer at that time of year. When I am out scouting during archery season, I can put my spotting scope on big deer much more frequently than two months later. Everyone knows the hardest part of shooting a big buck is finding him. Spotting big bucks in August is much easier than in October.
In the end, the lethality of weapon is not as big a factor as most people think. Less than 10% statewide is not a game changer.
B
bucktaxi
Guest
215Typical, I agree with almost everything you've said. Unless people really understand the dynamics of deer "management" they will be happy with the status quo.
I ask people why WY, NV, and CO biologists strive (and achieve) buck to doe ratios between 25 and 40 bucks per 100 does?? And UT biologists have historically striven for buck to doe ratios of 15/100 does (and achieved 11/100). Now they're talking about raising it to 18 bucks per 100 does, WOW...maybe there will be more than 1 1/2 mature bucks per 100 does instead of 1/100. If some of the other western states had buck to doe ratios as low as UT's general areas, they would close hunting in that area. Most of UT LE areas have been close to other western states general areas. Why is that???
A big part of the problem and reason is that we simply don't have as much habitat as the other mentioned states do. Higher human population and population of hunters per acreage to hunt. I can only guess that game managers here in UT understand the limited space we have and do the best they can.
My $.02
I ask people why WY, NV, and CO biologists strive (and achieve) buck to doe ratios between 25 and 40 bucks per 100 does?? And UT biologists have historically striven for buck to doe ratios of 15/100 does (and achieved 11/100). Now they're talking about raising it to 18 bucks per 100 does, WOW...maybe there will be more than 1 1/2 mature bucks per 100 does instead of 1/100. If some of the other western states had buck to doe ratios as low as UT's general areas, they would close hunting in that area. Most of UT LE areas have been close to other western states general areas. Why is that???
A big part of the problem and reason is that we simply don't have as much habitat as the other mentioned states do. Higher human population and population of hunters per acreage to hunt. I can only guess that game managers here in UT understand the limited space we have and do the best they can.
My $.02
AspenAdventures
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,889
bucktaxi hit the nail on the head
15 bucks / 100 does
If I wasn't crying about how bad it was I would laugh at how bad it is here in Utah.
Sure you can find a few good bucks.....but....as bucktaxi said....in other states they would close down units if they were as bad as Utah.
"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
15 bucks / 100 does
If I wasn't crying about how bad it was I would laugh at how bad it is here in Utah.
Sure you can find a few good bucks.....but....as bucktaxi said....in other states they would close down units if they were as bad as Utah.
"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
