Utah Deer Proposals

D

dh2273

Guest
Here is a copy of my letter to RAC CO members. Do you agree? RAC Members,
I will be out of town during the meetings so I will weigh in via e-mail. I think we are missing the point with these three proposals even though I appreciate the fact that the state in trying to do something about deer herds in Utah. Last month I received my SFW magazine in the mail and they had a Utah Mule Deer quiz inside. One of the questions was ?What is the biggest factor in mule deer decline in Utah?? The answer they listed was ?Loss of habitat.?
I know SFW does some great things for our state but they have no right to appoint themselves as the authority over mule deer in the state of Utah. Habitat loss is indeed a major player along the Wasatch front but let's look at San Juan Elk Ridge as a perfect example of what is wrong with the 3 proposed plans to change Utah deer hunting. For over 20 years in the 1960?s and into the 70?s Elk Ridge harvested an average of 2500 deer per year. For the last 10 years or more the harvest on Elk Ridge has been less than 100 and even as low as 50 deer. Common logic would lead us to believe if we are taking almost no deer in that unit the deer numbers would begin to climb again but that has not happened at all. Elk Ridge is in big trouble with their deer herd. 2500 to less than 50! It's not the buck to doe ratio that is the problem, it is the number of deer!
My point is this: Go and look at Blanding. The deer habitat in that area has not changed significantly in 40 years. So what has changed? Elk numbers and predators. One cougar now kills more deer in San Juan than the entire deer hunt and elk numbers have exploded in that area. We have to get our heads out of the sand and realize that we don't need more bucks nearly as we need more DEER!
Go through the state and you will find over and over places that held amazing numbers of deer in the 60?s 70?s and even the 80?s that are almost now devoid of deer. Look around Richfield, Scipio, Monticello, Loa, Green River, Bicknell, Boulder and on and on and on and you will see the same pattern. If we get 20 bucks to 100 does that's great but nothing from nothing is still nothing.
What we absolutely need to do is scale back elk numbers in certain indentified units and at the same time conduct massive predator control in those same units to see if we can bring the herds back in those units and use that as a template for re-growing our deer in Utah. Let's use a bunch of that auction tag money to zero in on predators and remove cow elk in selected units. What we have is an elk herd that is driving down deer numbers and then the predator population will not allow it to rebuild.
If I was to favor any one of the proposals it would be to break down the state into smaller management units but only if we actually do something drastic to really manage those units. 29 mediocre deer units is not better than 5. Take some action to grow more deer, not just more bucks. If you have 350,000 deer in Utah and a buck to doe of 15/100 you have a lot more bucks than if you have 150,000 deer and 20/100.
 
I think you are correct that the problem is lack of deer not just lack of bucks.

The problem is that they still believe that they have 300,000 deer.

If they don't get better info and put it to use then we are doomed.

My hunting partner talked with a DWR officer on the Pahvant last year and during the discussion my friend complained about the deer herd declining over the last few years. The officer scoffed and stated that "We have more deer here now than we have had in the last 20 years".

And that sums up our problem. The hunters that hunt the same areas each year see the fluctuation of the deer herd. It is obvious. some years there are not many fawns, some years there are not many yearling bucks, but if you look at the annual reports and the herd population nothing ever changes. We always have a deer herd that "wintered better than expected" and 300,000 deer.
 
I agree Walleye, I must talk to the same officers. They are even having doe hunts this winter if you can believe that. I think they have added a couple to many zeros on that 300,000. We need to stop the telling what people want to hear and start managing the total herd both does and bucks and do whatever it takes or soon they will be extinct.
 
dh hit the nail on the head with the elk herds. They are huge competition for the deer year round. Deer ALWAYS lose to elk, ALWAYS!!!!!!!
 
Good letter. Very thoughful and thought provoking.

I agree that our situation must change to keep the youth interested in hunting (and for me to shoot more bucks too). We need them (youth) to keep our heritage alive. The kids will lose interest quickly if there are no deer/bucks to look at during the hunt.

Side note;
Are all the does getting serviced during the rut? Would a few more bucks, older class, help with overall numbers too?

Thanks, Zeke
 
Predators are becoming an epidemic in our state... I can't even imagine if we also had wolves to deal with (Knock on wood)... My suggestion is that (like many states) with each and every deer tag, elk tag, moose tag etc. an individual can opt to buy a "Predator" tag for just $2, okay, lets say $3... This tag would allow any hunter coming across a predator by chance to harvest the animal on the spot. I'm talking bear, mountain lion, coyote, ex-wives, bed bugs, whatever... With the total number of tags sold for all species, the $3 fee would fetch a pretty penny for the DWR and it would increase the number of predators killed by chance.
They could still have dog and bait hunts and whatnot- there are so many predators I don't think it would hurt the already-in-place hunts...


"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-10 AT 04:17PM (MST)[p]Looking at the proposals I think number two would give us the most out of the three but im still not enthused. I hate to say it but some major changes need to happen like alot fewer tags. Habitat loss in the south is happening but mostly due to pinyon and juniper forest encroachment not a great sprawling populus. There is still some great habitat. I cannot fathom a Doe hunt these days so say goodbye to a herd of deer. Ive said it once Ill say it again "you kill a one doe youve killed ten deer possibly many more if you want to stretch out how many fawns that doe could have produced that would in turn produced". I think a huge problem in our state that is hardly ever talked about is the amount of deer that get slammed on the roads. Hwy 89, 12, 14, 20 all look like slaughter houses. Ive seen this with the increase in better roads that allow for higher speeds and the number of tourists coming to the area have been increasing for years.
 
Good letter.

The San Juan is a perfect example of how micro-management does nothing to grow more deer. That is what the rest of Utah is faced with: Low permit numbers, better quality, and yearrrrrrrssssss of waiting to get to hunt. All for nothing because it will not increase the productivity of the herd.

Elk, predators, vehicles, poachers, access, habitat, etc.... are all much more important than hunters hunting bucks. Of course Micro-management will help the situation- hahahaha. What a bunch of pie-in-the-sky hopes. Killing fewer bucks has not grown more deer on the San Juan or most other Ltd Entry Units. You can accomplish the goal of more deer while maintaining Regional hunting opportunity because bucks are not the problem.
 
I agree with everything dh said and hope thats what is mostly said at the racs. However Packout, if micro managing doesnt help and it doesnt make the units better how come everyone applys to hunt em. Uhh because their better quality hunts. Elk,predators,vehiles, is most of the problem but if we dont cut some buck tags and all doe tags recovery will be drug out that much longer. How can u say that managing an individual herd that summers and winters together for the most part is worse than lumping 1/5 of states herd together and trying to manage them all as if they had the same problems? Do you really think the southwest dessert unit has the same problems as the beaver unit. Southwest has hardly any major highways on or near migrating routes, it is high dessert with limited water,and has thousands of horses feeding off everything in sight.Beaver on the other hand is boxed in by major highways and has water everywere. Does that sound like the same problems to you? Yet their both managed as one. I would like to hear your logic behind smaller units being worse for managing deer.
 
So dh?

I can show you a LE Elk Unit that the Elk have been all but decimated for several years now!
The Deer have not rebounded,WTF?
"Lets shoot more Cows",REALLY?
Do you work for the DWR?

Maybe the Opportunists have all the RIGHT answers?


God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
IMHO - Look at Colorado and the deer they are putting out year after year. They micro manage their units (Thats my vote). How they figure they can manage the Cache the same as Grouse Creek is beyond me. Any way back to Colorado, they have a hell of lot more elk than Utah and the deer seem to do fine in thoise units that have a lot of elk too, granted they have a ton more habitat,wintering ground and country than Utah. I for one would rather hunt every 2-3 yrs for a better shot at quality buck than the 2 pnts we see now. To be honest I have been so frustrated with Utah I haven't hunted General deer for quite few years now I'd rather take my money and time to neighboring states.
 
I never said "smaller units being worse for managing deer". Under the current system, the herds are meeting the buck to doe ratios. The 3 units which are not are proposed to be put on a micro-basis- which is good. But if the Regional system is allowing units to meet their buck objectives and they allow people to hunt, then why is there are huge problem?

You state above that you like the quality on the limited entry hunts. If that is what you want then get ready for huge tag cuts. Everyone puts in for ltd tags because they can. They can draw a general tag if unsuccessful. Of course we all want LTD quality, but the majority do not want to wait 5 years between tags. I fear just what you stated: You are not happy with current buck numbers, so the only way to change that is cut hunter numbers, and thus increase wait times to draw. Yet the herd is currently meeting its buck to doe objectives. So where do you want to go with bucks? 25 per 100? 35 per 100? Guys were complaining about the Henry Mtns quality and they have 50 per 100. Where does it stop?

Everyone wants to see more deer, but cutting hunter opportunity will not grow the herds. It has not in NV. Read what NV biologists say about their herd: a brief look shows they feel they are carrying too many bucks (30 per 100) which are competing with doe and fawns.

I like Wyoming's system. I like the UDWR proposal. Cut tags by 7%, put 3 struggling units into a liberal micro system and let hunters hunt to the rest.

Stop focusing on bucks. Start focusing on deer and how to grow more doe, which will have more fawns, which will create more bucks, which will grow older, which we all can hunt.....
 
PACKOUT, I'm afraid your way of thinking will win out when it's all said and done. I hope you can point them in the right direction cause a whole lotta nothin won't do us any good either. The Elk ain't going away anytime soon.

Now I gotta go so I can watch that spike and 2 point compete for the few does that made it down to the winter range. Can't wait till next year.
 
Well Packout?

Would it be fair to say the Doe Slaughters they've had for years & years is total BULLSSHIT?

When you kill Does in the Current Creek area late in to November/December,You're killing Deer from all over the South Slope,Oh that's what the South Slope needs!





God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
"Read what NV biologists say about their herd: a brief look shows they feel they are carrying too many bucks (30 per 100) which are competing with doe and fawns."

If these extra bucks are competing with the does to the point that they are dying off wouldn't that mean that they are over carrying capacity for that unit? What good would the does be anyway?
 
Great googly moogly PACKOUT you are going to give yourself a headache arguing with the like of BOP-CAT!!!

Look peckerwoods, you've been cutting tags for the last 16 years and it ain't done squat!!!

CAT I ain't even going to go down this road with ya. My head still hurts from the elk thing.




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Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
Come on Wiley!
GEEZUS!
Never known you to NOT argue with me,WTF?

Cutting Tags Huh?

So tell me ww?
I've seen poor deer herds/management in Utah for nearly 40 years now,WTF do you think is gonna improve it in a hurry?
You want more tags?WTF?

Oh but GAWD the Opportunity!

Even the Aluminum is getting scarce in the Basin wiley!:D

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
Packout,
I'll i heard was that you thinks things are fine the way they are except you want more does and fawns and the bucks will be there. I agree with part of that but, heres were we disagree, I think it would be better and easier to manage smaller areas and focus on the individual problems associated with that area. If you have 29 units they're will always be archery hunts or muzzy hunts that go undersubscribed. Do you really think that just because they make subunit's out of the northern region that always has leftover permits people will suddenly flock to them. Come on enough with that BS.
P.S. things are not fine the way they are!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-10 AT 09:53PM (MST)[p]Amen Brutus. Ill add one thing if limited entry units dont work by cutting tags and micro managing call me crazy but it was not that great of a hunt on the henry's when it was open before it was shut down for a while now it doesnt even seem real to be on that mountain on a cool august morning in Bromide basin,Slate canyon, the Horn, Bull Creek Pass etc.... and look at multiple bucks pushing and exceeding the 180-200 inch mark. Sure there wont be alot of tags at first and many of us wont get to hunt but when deer number's improve then push up tag numbers as needed i.e. actually managing a unit instead of swaging everything . Believe me I would hate to miss even one year of huntin Bucks but kill kill kill is oblivously not the answer. What the hell good is a tag if its always a worthless hunt?

P.S. end all slaughter of Doe's enough things kill Doe's without bullets and arrows in the mix!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
The current proposal will do nothing for the deer herd. Cutting buck tags is not the answer.
It will just drive away new hunters, drive money away and get the DWR looking for other sources of revenue...IE more high dollar and governs tags.
You could see a short term increase in buck quality, and a few more bucks around, but it will not increase deer numbers, which is what we need.

We need to address the root of the problem, we have cancer, we are applying a bandaid to the surface...guess what the patient is still going to die.

We need to dramatically reduce predator numbers. We need to fence key highways, we need to not hunt any Does.
We need to close some roads during the hunts, we need to decide some units are for deer and some for elk, I just do not believe they mix that well.

Habitat is a very small part of the problem, it has not changed significantly in 20 years.

I will be at the RAC giving my opinion, I hope the rest of you will also.
 
I am so glad to see that some guys understand that there are 2 different and separate issues here. Issue #1 is deer numbers, and issue #2 is buck quality.

Issue #2 is an easy fix. Cut permit numbers, reduce buck harvest, you produce bigger bucks that are easier for the limited number of hunters that get tags to harvest. It is super easy. The DWR knows how to manage for big bucks, it isn't hard.

Issue #1, growing more deer, now that it is a different story. How to grow more mule deer is the Million Dollar Question. If anybody knows the answer to that one WY, MT, ID, WA, OR, NV, AZ, NM, CA, UT and even CO would really like to know. There is no silver bullet for growing mule deer populations. People have tried various forms and varying levels of intensity of predator control and habitat improvement, and nobody seems to have really figured it out yet. When the weather cooperates it can make any wildlife manager seem like a genius, but when mother nature throws a curve ball even the most brilliant biologist is made to look like an idiot. I talked to a very experienced biologist from WY one day and he half jokingly told me that when things go well biologists claim it was because of management, and when things go bad it they blame it on the weather.

If people want to manage UT for higher quality buck hunting, that is easy to do, and some of these options will start moving towards that. If anyone thinks these proposals will grow our deer herds (increase in overall deer numbers) they will be disappointed.

Dax
 
I really can not believe that anyone would question the logic behind smaller units. Yes predators, highways, winter range and yes hunter harvest play major rolls in deer numbers. How on earth is breaking the state into smaller units that can be MICRO managed not going give the DWR more ability to focus on each of these issues on more focused level? Once you can do this you are able to address what each unit needs. Whether its more deer overall, more bucks, less bucks, less elk, more elk you name it, it will be easier to pin point issues.

On a side note do all archers feel the herd is just fine as it is today?

There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 
You hit it square on Muley 73. Each Unit has its own issues which need to dictate managment for said unit.

Ive been bowhunting Southern Utah for 13 years now and can honestly say it went from a fun hunt seeing some great bucks and a lot of deer to an ok hunt seeing 1 maybe 2 great bucks to an absolute disaster this year finding 1 small four point. My point being fewer and fewer deer each year more and more hunters seems to be what Ive seen. Very few deer this year and 0 great bucks.
 
We've seen the Deer Herd go down hill for nearly 40 years!

Fencing Hi-Ways would save who knows how many Deer,I wouldn't even guess how many Game Animals are killed from Duchesne to Heber/SLC each year but the numbers are staggering!

Ya,Tell the Stick Flippers they can't shoot Does,that ought to Ruffle their Feathers!

While We are RUFFLING feathers,Let's BAN the F'N Wheelers off the Public Ground thanks to Law Breakin Beaches that just can't resist to bust new illegal trails every year!

There are at least a dozen reasons why the Deer Herd in Utah SUCKS!

Until We get the Cyanide back out You'll never see the Herds come back,ya it'll take some protected Magpies & Crows with the Yotes but I don't really give a rats ass,we got plenty of Black/Black & White Birds!

Without major changes from the DWR that most People could not tollerate You'll never see much change on the Deer Herd in TARDVILLE!

It would take such major change you'd have all the Opportunists Bawling like babies!

Every few years we try some new different stupid sshit that never works!




God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
Bbop / Bobcat,

That is a great post, and you are RIGHT ON! It is going to take some major changes. I just am not sure the world will allow them.

I did not say I am against 29 units. Geez we suck at 5, so I am sure we can suck at 29.

29 units will create 29 yearly guesses on deer numbers, targets, and hunter numbers.
 
Glad someone has the balls to jus say it like it is. Tough pill to swallow for some but the truth hurts. Great post B-BOP cant argue with any of it.
 
CAT you've finally pulled your head out far enough to start making sense.
Damn it's good to see you be rational for once.

You are exactly right unless people make some sacrifices you won't see any improvement. That being said going to 29 units is nothing more than a smokescreen
To go to a full LE system in the State.

You can have 8000 units and the ATV riders are still not going to allow you to close one road.
You can have 8000 units and the houndsmen are not going to allow you to kill one more lion.
You can have 8000 units and those in the elk bonus point cluster are not going to allow you to kill one more bull.
You can have 8000 units and livestock ain?t coming out of winter range one day sooner.

I've always told you that if there is a BIOLOGICAL REASON to cut permits or even shut a unit completely down I'd be the first one to speak in favor of it, this includes Lamanite Sticks!!!

Let me tell you what 29 unit management will do. NOTHING TO HELP OUR HERDS
Everything to help CWMU Operators and Landowners that are guaranteed tags year in and year out. The only way CAT Jr. will hunt every year under the 29 unit LE management scenario is if CAT Sr. picks up enough cans to pay someone for the privilege.

The Special Interests won't let five units be managed right? What in the Blue Hell would make any of you think for one second that any of this will change going to 29.





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Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
Wrong wiley!

I've said it all along,you just now startin to let it sink in?

Well ww!
You're gonna have to start throwing more Aluminum out the window in the Basin,times are lean & I won't be buying Jr a Tag anytime soon!

I just don't see how 29 units with the same number of hunters is going to help?(Wow!Maybe a 7% cut in tags,Ya that'll fix it!)

I know a guy that recently hunted the Pumpkin Patch,well he ain't real happy,he told the DWR he was gonna fill his deer tag & he didn't care if it took till January to do so! (Ya ya might say a few people are gettin pissed!)

I don't wanna sound Negative,I just don't see severe enough changes being made to improve the Utah Deer Herd anytime soon!

So for now I'll keep PISSCUTTIN & Hunting for something I know for a fact is not there!

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
>I just don't see how 29
>units with the same number
>of hunters is going to
>help?(Wow!Maybe a 7% cut in
>tags,Ya that'll fix it!)

Never thought I would say this, but I agree with Bess. More units with a small tag reduction won't grow more deer and it won't give the increase in quality many are hoping for.

Dax
 
Here is the problem and the soulution any one who is agains micro managing here is some food for thought in the 2007 winter the stats are from the dwr they had 95% fawn crop loss and 75% yearling loss plus all the adult deer and what does the dwr do nothing. were to do the vast majority of people hunt the ne tags south slope. they should have shut the whole damn thing down but they didnt and the deer numbers reflect that if it was microed they could have had a better chance at reducing the tag numbers or shut the unit down. we need a all the above approach preds,habitat and sfw needs to spend more money on hwy fence and less on habitat there are way to many getting killed on the roads.
 
We need to petition the RAC and DWR for more lenient trap check laws. Right now, traps must be checked every 48 hours or every other day. If the law was changed to every 96 hours or every forth day, there would be alot more people that would target coyotes. right now it is not worth trapping coyotes and checking traps every other day gets expensive.
 
The small units have worked for all three states around us, they just have to be willing to cut the tags properly and that is the X factor.
 
I'm thinking that if it goes to 29 units, it will spread out hunters more evenly-- but-- how are they going to determine how many tags for each unit ? I will be asking that at the Central RAC meeting. Also, will the DH be given a percentage of the tags in each unit etc. Still lots of questions for me. I serve on the Central RAC and have recieved over 100 e-mails-- so far the "vote" from those who have e-mailed are Option 1-19%, Option 2- 43% Option 3- 11% Others-27% Of the "others" antler restriction (3 pt or better) is at 13%. The rest is divided among - Close entire state for at least one year, close state for 2-3 years, leave as is.
It really does help to get input from hunters.
 
Your right, but they cannot just set a number like 13,000 less tags and spread them out, they need to get into each unit and really cut them where they need to be cut. They might have to cut more than half the tags state wide to get this accomplished. I will be going to Southern Rac and am hearing much like you that the majority are willing to try the 29 units if they will do it right.
 
NEBO you understand that not every unit is flown and counted every year right??? How the hell can you micromanage something without actually doing the counts every unit, every year???

Damn, no wonder Utah is the Fraud Capitol of the world.. Hunters hear 29 units and take it like it's the great savior of our herds. Like I said before 29 units will do nothing more than keep DEER HUNTERS AT HOME!!! NOTHING MORE!!!! It won't
kill one more predator, plant one more acre, kill one more bull,
prevent one more deer vehicle collision and on and freaking on.


Look Richard you know the purpose behind the Committee Setting and multi year plans right??? It is for this very situation. You can't re-invent a REALLY GOOD CURRENT PLAN EVERY TIME SOME GROUP OR INDIVIDUAL GETS A WILD FREAKING HAIR!!!
You can't track a trend or develop a model if you manipulate the data every year!!!

They couldn't get this idea past the Statewide Mule Deer Committee so they are trying their luck with all the saps that believe this crap.

NEBO I gurantee you will have more input than you care to hear at the meeting.... Might be a good idea to bring your midnight snack and breakfast.

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Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
SOUTA you need to branch out more my friend.

This idea has support of exactly ONE Organization ONE.

One very vocal and well organized group but still only ONE.








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Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
All I can say is that this is going to be ugly.

Initially I was all in favor of breaking up into the smaller units.

Now, I am really worried about the numbers they will come up with for each unit. I don't know why that can't be made public. I don't know why the damn 2009 annual report has not been posted. If they don't use real numbers the smaller unit idea will do nothing but keep us from hunting each year.

I don't mind sacrificing for a gain. I don't want to sit out a year or two and have the same problems we started with.


There are so many opinions on this that there are going to be a lot of unhappy hunters no matter what.

I would rather see them cut the 7,000 tags, stop killing does, manage the struggling areas totally independent from the rest of the region, and other than that just leave it alone.

There is way too much left unknown to support any of the new proposals.
 
WALLEYE I would challenge you and everyone else to read the current mule deer plan. When you do you will see that there are already triggers in place to manage unit by unit if certain buck to doe ratio's are not met. It's already in the plan!! We don't have to go to 29 units to have unit by unit management.

Like I said you are ALL being sold a huge steaming pile of manure that will do nothing more than cut opportunity and drive hunters to other things.

If you want more mule deer address the real issues. Going to 29 units won't do any more than keep you on your couch at home instead in the hills.

I challenge all of you to educate yourself before you buy in to the 29 unit catchphrase craze... See it for what it is
and by all means speak up.









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Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
Staying with the regions and still trying to manage units will not work. If a struggling unit is pulled out or reduce tags given the hunter will migrate to the better areas in that region and will eventually give us what we have now, which is no deer. I again ask you why is all the other states around us on small units, oh because they have had to, why cant we learn from them before it is to late.
 
SOUTA you are the perfect example of what I am talking about as far as buying this B.S. hook line and sinker.

Let me ask you who will kill more deer in a given year OK??
25 hunters or 1 mountain lion??? 25 hunters or one highway??
25 head of livestock grazing winter range or 100 hunters???

Do ya follow the trend???


JUDAS PREIST fix the real problems before you cut the least impactful from the equation











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Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
You still can't answer my question of why it is working in 3 states around us, that is what I am telling you wake up and look around, the same old to many hunters is what is killing the bucks off. I agree with you as far as killing the deer herd off, but lets at least have some bucks around like these other states. You are the perfect example of a non sportsman, do anything you can to get a tag and blame it on everything except the problem to many hunters hunting to few deer = no deer if we do not do something now
 
Utah is only comparable to Nevada... You can't compare Utah to Wyo or Colo. To much difference in Habitat and managment.

Let me ask you, Do we have more deer now than we did in 1994 when we went from 250,000 hunters down to 97,000???




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Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
OK Compare us to Nevada then, who has the better deer? No we do not have more deer than in 1994, I agree with that, but we could have more bucks like Nevada, that is at least a step in the right direction, staying with option 1 only gives us more of the same and no more bucks, pretty soon maybe already to late we have none.
 
Will someone please explain to me how going with 29 units will take away opportunity? If we have the same amount of area to hunt, why does it take away opportinity? You can give the same amount of tags state wide. We might have some units with great buck to doe ratios and some bad. Just give more tags to the better ratios and less to the bad ones. This would still result in the same amount of tags. So why is everyone saying they will have to wait 2-3 years to hunt. Yea, you might have to hunt in a new area if the place you usually hunt has poor buck to doe ratios and they cut tags in that aera. But with that another unit will have good ratios and more tags in that unit.

If we have to cut tags to get the 18-100 ratio state wide then we will have to do it with 5 or 29 units. SAME AMOUNT OF HUNT ABLE AREA = SAME TAGS!!!!

I think the 29 units are the way to go. But, only if we do real counts on deer in every unit every year. Maybe even have a online questioner that you have to fill out before you can even put in. This would give more feed back from all hunters.

This is just like lifting weights. Work hard, put in the time and the results will show. We need more DWR people in the field doing real counts in all 29 units all the time. Then adjust tags to deer numbers. If we have a bad winter maybe only 30,000 total tags will be given. Enough with the BS computer counts!!

I truly think if we have 29 units it will force the DWR to do better deer counts and point other issues if the units are smaller and watched over by people assigned to that small area.
 
"there are already triggers in place to manage unit by unit if certain buck to doe ratio's are not met. It's already in the plan!! We don't have to go to 29 units to have unit by unit management."

ww, You just said every unit is not counted every year. How do we know under the current plan that the ratio's are being met? I would think under the 29 units there would be a lot more work to do and I'm sure this will be discussed. If these issues can't be worked out then it will probably never happen.

ww, I don't think any of these plans are going to grow more deer. There is a lot more that needs to be done and I hope this will be addressed. With that being said, I'm curious to what plan you support and why?
 
I've gone back and forth between option #1 and #2. I cannot see the advantage of either one for deer numbers.
There will not be more deer without some other influnces.

If we keep the regions and manage for bucks per 100 does per unit AND cut the tags it will increase the buck. If we close a unit within a region and keep the permits at the same levels the other units within a given region will take a hit.

If we go with 29 units and don't cut the permit #'s enough we will make no head-way with the buck/100 doe counts.

Bottom line (a); The only way to incerase the buck count is to cut permit numbers.

Bottom line (b); THE ONLY WAY TO INCREASE DEER NUMBERS IS TO CONTROL ALL THE OTHER FACTORS WHICH ARE NOT ADDRESSED IN ANY OF THE 3 PLANS!

Zeke
 
By having the 29 units it will cause DWR to do better counts, and thus should cut more tags which like most of you have said is the only was to produce more bucks. We cannot stay with 94,000 hunters and ever get the deer herd back. We may have to cut tags by half or more than half which will cause a waiting period for people, but it is that or no deer at all. I also agree there should be a plan to bring deer herd back in general, but I do not see it in any of their options. Two other regions are meeting next week is anyone going who can keep us informed of how they turn out.
 
Opportunity will/should be lost in every region/unit if we are to ever grow more bucks. We need fewer tags to grow more bucks.

Opportunity to HUNT will not be affected too much differently between the regional and unit proposals. Ability to GET AWAY from other hunters might be compromised. Oh, I guess that's opportunity too.

It will change everything if we go to the unit plan. Currently we can find little out of the way places within the region because they are less popular. Hunters will be in those little pockets if they have to stay within a smaller unit with the unit plan.

My vote. Plan #1 and cut the hell-out-of-the-tags!
Then do some serious HERD building which isn't addressed in any plan (yet).

Zeke
 
ZEKE

The thing i see negative about option 1 is first the DWR wants it and is saying 7,000 tag cut, that tells me they already have a prenotion of what they are going to do, and you and I know that is not near enough tags to cut. Second, if lets say Dutton unit does not have the quota of Bucks and they really cut back the tags on that unit, then the overflow of people will go where the better hunting is and overcrowd that area to the point that we will now have another area just as poor. At least with units you can control the number of hunters in that unit and it will not change, easy to manage the bucks that way, that is why all the neighboring states have went to it.
 
I see your point. We have not seen any numbers on permit issuance for the unit plan.... Have we? This scares me too.

Proposal #1 is very similar to the current system which allows hunters to spill into the more popular units. It would still work if they cut enough tags and it would increase opportunity/choice for the permit holder!
If the F&G just bounce ALL the permit holders from one unit to another within a region and don't cut taf sufficiently the whole thing will not work either.

Either way there are sacrifices which will need to be made to increase the buck counts.

And like I said, we must do all the other things, which are not addressed in the plans, to increase the whole herd numbers.
 
I agree, the biggest thing that needs to happen to bring back the bucks is to drastically cut tags, that is the part that scares me as they have already thrown numbers out their. I am not sure they have any idea how bad it really is. I would bet all areas are below 10 bucks per 100 and it would be hard to find the 100 does.

It is time to step up as sportsman and let them know it is not about getting a tag anymore but about bringing back the mule deer herd or no one will be hunting in the years to come.
 
You just don't get it.... Damn!!!!

When I get home and have a half hour to explain it and a cold one I'll fill you in.

Ya'll are driving me to drink. It ain't that hard






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Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
Hey ww!!!

Save the Aluminum so you can chuck it out the window next time you drive through the Basin!:D

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
> You just don't
>get it.... Damn!!!!
>
> When I get home
>and have a half hour
>to explain it and a
>cold one I'll fill you
>in.
>
>
>
>WW,
I've been referring to all the other thing which need to be fixed for the overall herd numbers. They're the same things you've been talking about. Right?
Are you saying keep the permit numbers at the current levels?
I'm confused by your last post.

Zeke

PS, enjoy you beverage.
>
>
>
 
ZEKE let me get home and I'll explain it.




*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
Listen!

ww is gonna Splain it!

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-10 AT 07:01PM (MST)[p] HA HA HA Thanks for the intro CAT!!!!!

We all agree that we need to grow more Mule Deer right???
We all agree that we have some SERIOUS ISSUES WITH OUR HERDS!!

Ya'll can take this for what it's worth, 99% of this is FACT
1% is my personal OPINION.

Here is a fact... Under 10 Mule Deer Bucks per 100 doe's will impregnate every one of them every time. If doe is receptive she will get bred.

Here is another fact... A Buck Mule Deer will never in a million years give birth to one fawn let alone twins like most doe's that I've seen this year have had with them.

Here is another fact... General season deer hunters in Utah hunt BUCK DEER which have very little to do with overall mule deer populations in the state's of UTAH, WYOMING, NEW MEXICO or KATMANF-INGDOO.


Fact... A Cougar will kill a deer a week of whatever sex it can catch that day. Around 30% of the hunters afield will kill a BUCK DEER per year which don't do a whole hell of a lot for overall population..

Fact Deer vehicle collisions cost insurers in to the 7 figures every year.

Are you starting to catch on just a bit yet???

The smoke that is being blown up all of your quality, trophy hunting asses is that by reducing the amount of bucks taken and reducing hunters that hunt bucks you'll have 30 inch bucks behind every tree on every general season unit. Nice dream but biologically it is nothing more than that.

The facts are that even if we do hit 18 per 100 that equals
1 more buck mule deer you will see on your hunt. Weather it is in 1 of 5 regions or 1 of 29 units. Thats all thats it.


ZEKE I support the current mule deer plan that is currently in effect. The triggers are if a unit goes below 15-100 45% of the hunt is cut. If after 3 years the ratio is less than 10-100 it becomes a LE Unit. I have absolutely no problem with any of this.


The problem that I can't seem to get through most of your thick freaking skulls is that BUCK MULE DEER Have virtually nothing to do with growing more mule deer period!!! Cutting hunter numbers and the disaster that will come from that to accomplish virtually nothing is not worth it.

Take the steps to make sure that BRED MULE DEER DOE'S CONCEIVE THEIR FAWNS and we'll go from there. This SFW wet dream does nothing more than take hunters out of the harvest of expendable buck deer.

Ya'll want to throw a roof on a house without a foundation or walls... Yeah it sounds great that SFW and the Wildlife Board want this but for Christ sake lets pour some footings before we start laying carpet

I hear those excess bucks make great cat food and hood ornaments.

Carry on











*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
Thank GOD ELK GETS IT!!!!!!!!! You are exactly 100% correct none of the three B.S. choices are going to do ##### for overall mule deer populations!!! NADA ZIP ZILCH ZERO!!! CAN I NOT SCREAM IT LOUDLY ENOUGH??? THE MALE OF THE SPECIES HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH POPULATION!!!

Leave the current plan in place... Let hunters hunt if a unit is in trouble turn it LE until it has recovered.






*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-10 AT 07:29PM (MST)[p]Well ww!

This 10 or 15 Bucks per 100 Does Bullsshit is gettin old!

When they(DWR) do their counts they count every f'n Deer with Nubs & Milk on their Lipps type of Bucks to keep objectives where they like them!

I'm sick of seeing a fawn Buck Breeding his mother for GAWDS sake!

Let's do something to raise the age/life span of Utah Mule Deer Bucks!

This "I needed the Meat" so I shot a Buck with Milk on his Lipps Bullsshit is getting old too!

38 years & counting worth of Piss Poor Utah Mule Deer Buck Management!

"Don't get me started on the 'Doe Shooter' Hunts!



God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
different subject all together you want G.S. units to be LE..

BUGGER OFF CAT AND PUT IN FOR THE HENRY'S




*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
With '0' points wiley?:D

Ya I should draw!

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
>I agree, the biggest thing that
>needs to happen to bring
>back the bucks is to
>drastically cut tags.
>
>The biggest thing to bring back the bucks is bring the deer (does) back! I agree with Wiley on this one. We need to save the money that it would cost to make all these good for nothing changes and kill some predators! I have a feeling that it is going to be ugly for drawing a tag in about 5-10 years if we go to 29 units. This sounds just like the limited entry elk when they started it and I still haven't drawn a tag yet! Enjoy looking at them but I like to hunt. I could go to Zions or Capitol Reef to look at big bucks.
 
no you won't!!!! It's mathematically impossible unless you are 12 years old. You may pull the tag when you are 95









*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
OK ww!!!

I'll lie about my age!

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
CAT eventually they are going to see your old mug!!! I damn well hope that you've got enough scrap for me to bail your ass out!!!
HA HA



*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
So after a Unit is Decimated & JUNK we turn it in to a LE Unit?
WTF?
Oh I get it!
Let's start an LE Unit from an interbreeding bunch of 3 Deer after everything else is shot out!
GEEZUS!

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
Well I don't ww!
That's why I'm beggin you guys to start throwing more Aluminum out the window!:D

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
Henry's??? Paunsagunt??? Book Cliffs??? Yeah they all suck don't they??


*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
CSI is on..... see ya tomorrow HA HA HA






*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
GEEZUS!!!
The Soap Opera comes on & you guys are glued to the TV!

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
C'mon CAT ya know I'm pulling your paw!!!

Hide and watch on this one.... I think a storm is brewing on this one!!!






*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
A storm is brewin alright!
But they always blow over with hardly any change for the future!


God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
It will be harder to draw a tag if they go to units, because it will force them to do a better job managing, that is why they do not want to do it and say 7,000 cut if we don't and 13,000 cut tags if we go to units. How do they already know? I think it will be alot worse, I agree with the sportsmen who have said bull crap to their counts, there is not 15 bucks per 100 does and there is not 300,000 deer in the state. They have a lot of work to do, but a start would be to go to units like other states who have something to hunt each year. If we don't, there will be nothing to hunt in a few years and then they can get in the unemployment line.
 
wileywapiti
I agree with your assessment of "all the other stuff that needs to be done". We're not too far apart on our ideas here.

Thanks for "spainin'" it to me in your words.

The herds need to be fixed too and in the meanwhile I'll take a few more bucks.

We did well as a group this year but I would have a hard time saying we saw 5 bucks per 100 does. We waded through a ton of does and smaller bucks to find some larger "meat" bucks. LOL

Ok now.... you and bbop go back to girl-fighting each other. haha

Best regards, Zeke
 
STOP THE DOE HUNTS!!!!
We have been saying this for years. I would like to know where the whole buck to doe ratio thing started. I believe it was a back East, whitetail tactic. It makes no sense to kill off part of a herd to make your buck/doe ratio better. "Less deer all together, GREAT IDEA". Maybe back East where the whitetail populations are getting out of hand. All of our deer units are under objective for deer numbers, so why keep lowering them. The female is the bread and butter of any species. If our fish and game would manage for does, they would always have bucks. It kills me whenever I pick up the antlerless proclamation and see doe hunts scheduled in areas that I know have struggling deer herds. I can see having a system that takes problem animals out of fields, orchards, haystacks,etc. There are enough cars, predators, hunters, Hard winters, etc to wave any future doe hunts.

What are people most likely to shoot when they go on a doe hunt? Most will not shoot a small, sick, or scrawny doe, or one with a faun. Just like hunting bucks, whenever a doe hunt is in place, hunters are going to take the largest, healthiest animal that they can find. Most likely the doe that would have the best chance of making it through a hard winter and also the most likely to have fauns for next year. Also the doe with probably the best genetics. Needless to say "Until they stop the madness, you will see the decline of our herds." I like comparing it to pheasants. If you shoot hens and roosters, what is going to happen eventually to your population? We rely on the hens for future seasons to come.

I still think that predators are our worst problem. I like many that made statements above have seen a consistant decline in overall deer numbers wherever we go. I do think that elk cause some stress on deer, and sometimes displace deer into areas that expose them to predators, but I for one have never seen an elk eat a deer, Nor have I found a lot of dead deer that I would say were winter killed from stress from elk. I would say that elk are a stress, but only one of many. You have to figure that between weather, predators, and man, deer are constantly under some form of stress almost all year long.

There are a couple of units that I can think of, like the Oak Creek range, and Mt Dutton where they have or are decimating the elk herds. The deer populations are still way way down from what they could be. Interestingly enough the highest deer numbers on the Oak Creek Range are right around the town of Oak City. We are seeing this all over our state. The deer are moving into areas around people to find a safer place to live. I'm sure because they are constantly harassed by predators,hunters,etc.

I wouldn't mind seeing smaller units, but only if they are managed for the number of deer that each unit contains. My family used to hunt skyline drive for years. We eventually got tired of sharing the same rock with 5 other hunters or fighting over deer that were shot. We started hunting and area in southern Utah about 15 years ago and from that time we have seen the deer numbers probably get cut in this specific area to 1/8 of what they were when we started. This area in southern Utah is not over run with people, and there is plenty of habitat,"Summer and Winter". All I can figure is the decline has to be mainly from predators. I honestly think that some areas are in such bad shape that even shutting the season off for 5-10 years would not make a difference.
I think going to the 29 smaller units would help areas like Strawberry, Skyline drive, and areas similar that are so over hunted. I feel like it could hurt some of the units with poor deer numbers if they force more hunters into an area that normally wouldn't receive as much hunting pressure.

I will probably receive a bunch of crap for this but, I have to say what the heck is the deal with having such a long archery season. Five weeks statewide + the extended archery units. I like to bow hunt, but 5 weeks is too much. I don't know anybody that has bow hunted for very long that hasn't hit and wounded an animal that they never recovered. I know that animals get wounded with all weapons, but more with arrows than anything else. Five weeks is a long time to sling arrows. Lets face it, The bows they make now are a far cry from what they hunted with 25 years ago. I think the longer archery season would be fine if we had the animals to support it.


I know I have rambled on, and am glad that I am not the only one that is concerned about our deer populations.
 
Managing for bigger bucks is easy if you don't care about giving up opportunity to hunt. Right now we have 97,000 deer hunters and success is about 30% each year, with most of those being yearling bucks. You want a slam dunk on bigger bucks? Easy, close the entire state to deer hunting for 2 years, cut tags by 2/3rds, and then the "general season" hunt will have close to 100% success for 3.5+ yr old bucks. There would be some real monsters killed every year and it would only take 4-7 years to get a general season deer tag.

Managing for higher deer populations is A LOT harder. Not one western state has figured out how to offset the impacts of predators, poorly managed livestock grazing, roadkill, competetion with elk, pinion juniper encroachment, cheat grass, development, drought, hard winters, etc. There are a lot of pieces to the mule deer population growth puzzle.

Managing buck hunters on a smaller scale isn't going to grow our deer herds. It may improve quality some, but at the current proposed tag cuts, probably not much. The decrease in buck harvest isn't proportional to the cut in tags. As you cut tags, success rates increase, so you have to cut way more than you might think in order to have the desired reduction on harvest.

This round of RAC meetings is going to be a nightmare. There are so many people that are passionate, opinionated, upset, and often misinformed.


Dax

There is no such thing as a sure thing in trophy mule deer hunting.
 
THAT DAX IS ONE SMART SUMBITCH!!!!!









*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
Dax- thank you for putting it so eloquently. Perfect post.

I believe all those additional bucks would produce no additional fawns.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-10 AT 11:11PM (MST)[p]Something does in fact need to be changed with the way the deer herds and hunts have been managed. I feel the DWR does what they can with what they are given. The hunters and sportmans need to responsibly manage the deer herds. Some of the hunters I meet, complain about not seeing a big buck and hunting there asses off, then drive off with a spike/two point in the back of there truck "STOP KILLING THE YOUNG BUCKS!!!" Ya know if we killed all the teenagers there wouldn't be any adults..
 

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