Wild Genetics

[NeboBob]

A question for all. Is it really possible to control genetics in a free roaming deer or elk herd?

Does/cows carry half the genetics and we cannot tell which doe/cow is a good animal in a non-fenced, controlled situation. We cannot control this like ranchers can control their cows/bulls.

Convention says that the bigger the herd the better the genetics because of the diversity and sheer number of different animals. If we try to control for larger antler size could we actually harm the genetics that control for a disease-free deer/elk.

I hear a lot about genetics and I have read articles about whitetail genetics but that is in controlled, fenced areas. Just wondering what others ideas are.

 

[dillon]

The genetics in deer is a little harder to quantify. If you introduce just a few deer into a new area where no other deer are then they are a source herd. Say you introduce ten does and three bucks. In a very short time you could have 300 deer in that area (example Santa Rosa Island) and they could do very well. But because they are all related and closely related at that they tend to become pretty much all the same in their genes and they do have a hard time with disease and other variables. But if you introduce a new deer every year into the herd you can avoid them being the same genetically. It is called the one migrant per generation rule. When they are all the same genetically they are considered FIXED which means that unless new blood in brought into the herd they are not an different from each other. You do want those differences in genes. Big Horn sheep are famous for being fixed populations, and that is one of the major reasons they all get sick and die. But with respect to your free roaming elk and deer herds that have existed for hundreds of years they are usually very diverse genetically and you don't have this problem, unless they are isolated to an Island or somewhere that is difficult to cross like when they are surrounded by desert with no water and high temperatures.

I don't think in Utah that the genes are the problem, I think we just need to let the bucks/bulls grow up so we can see what they are made of.

One major thing that does have all control over it Mitochondrial DNA, it is passed on by the does.

I would like to go out on the Henry Mountains and see how that herd is genetically because they are really almost completely isolated from other areas.

I hope this is a good summary for you.

 

[bucktaxi]

Good explanation dillon, genetics no, WE won't change them on a large free ranging herd. But, WE can influence the antler type grown through selective hunting, if we were able to kill enough dominant bucks with great frames over a long period of time. In other words, if the only dominant bucks breeding are three points then the likelihood of increasing the number of three points is ppssible. I'm just saying it's a possibility in that scenario, in most cases it won't happen.

 

[NeboBob]

Any idea which animal (buck or doe) carries the genetics for antler growth. Obviously, the bucks genetics has a lot to deal with this but possibly does have a significant say in the outcome (baldness in men as an example). I am just wondering. I haven't done much reading on deer genetics other than the hear-say and popular magazines.

Thanks for the helpful input.

 

[NVBighorn]

dillon, thanks for the explanation. Here is an article on antler genetics and "management". Granted it is on whitetail deer and more controlled areas but the information seems good and provides much food for thought.

http://www.mdwfp.com/Level2/Wildlife/Game/Deer/Articles.asp?article=337

I have a personal problem with the entire idea of "management bucks" and trying to influence antler growth for trophy potential. It's just me. I think its interesting how this idea seems to be catching on for deer and elk. I maintain that they are wild populations and as such perhaps we shouldn't be trying to change them for our record book driven egos. I'm sure I'm relatively alone on this and thats ok. No one needs to try to convince me otherwise.

For the guys that take the "management" bucks or bulls, it strikes me that it is like shelling sunflower seeds and stock piling the meat of the good seeds and eating the broken, sour or small seeds. So you build up this nice pile of good, fat seeds while your mouth waters in anticipation of eating them. Just as your are getting a nice pile built up some other guy who has been eyeing your pile comes along and sweeps them up and eats them.

 

[BrowningRage]

I think that it may be possible to eliminate extreme genetic deformities from a deer herd, but "deformities" like 3x4 genetics may not be what it's cracked up to be.
I recall that on a Mossback Muleys video where the "Patterson Buck" is killed- it scored like 210" net typical... Anyway, the video of the deer from the year before showed that it was giant 3x4 that was not broken, just a 190" 3x4... He would have been anybody's "Management" buck on the Henry's or Pauns or wherever-but the following year he turned into the #2 typical deer for the state... So you tell me, was he really a "Management Buck"


"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24

 

[3point2]

I have seen big 4X4 go from 4s to 3X4 (with extras) and back. I think it is funny that given the existing proof (science), although not complete, that the RAC still approves the management hunts to rid us of "imperfection". Even though it is not known exactly how the "big buck gene" is past or maintained, free ranging herds are what we have. The biologist who are paid to study deer and watch these herds know the 3-point or better/worse won't work. Soon the F&G in UT will be in a bind because their buck/doe will not meet objective and there will still be 3-points (including the Pauns!). As a hunter that likes hunting bigger deer, I think age class is more important than horn structure on a particular year. If you don't like the horns that year, then pass. I know of a lot of guys that would be happy to shoot a mature (big) 3 point even on a limited entry unit. Most of the time they have extras that make them unique!

My 2 cents.

PS funny this thread started talking science and genetics and it dropped quickly to the bottom...