Does the Pauns. need a Management Hunt

cannonball

cannonball

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I am at the age that the mangement hunt is probably the only thing I could draw on a limited entry unit worth while, but is it really needed. The last time I hunted this unit, "guided" hunters were taking the larger 3 X 4's.

It is now marginal as a premiun hunt, and the gene pool (as stated in the Henrie Mountain blog) is certainly not the main reason for the hunt, so why have it. I'm sure the first couple of years have accomplished a service.

My point: Companys go out of business for not being adaptable. Government takes for ever to change and that's one reason Mule Deer are where they are in the State of Utah.

Again - Is the Management Hunt needed? We know the Henrie's is by the quality and quantity of management deer coming off the unit that would not be shot otherwise, but I don't believe that's the case for the Pauns. anymore.
 
The main reason the pauns. management hunt started was because DWR wanted to increase overall trophy buck tags. The management hunt came about when sportsmen and DWR met in the middle and decided to have the management hunt instead of more trophy bucks being killed. It was a real good hunt last year, lots of big old mature bucks that were overlooked on the muzzleloader hunt were harvested. Not sure how it went this year with the late migration and the rut not in full swing. I believe it helped save alot of young deer with potential
 
The problems with the management hunts are when a younger deer is taken that has the potential to grow to a trophy buck, or when a trophy buck is taken that is broken. Although either of those are legal, that is a major concern of the ones who have a lot of input on the management hunts.
On my hunt this year on the Henry's, I think it was early enough that the bucks hadn't been fighting much which was good for the broken trophy buck problem. We only seen one buck that was broke and he was broke off right above the brow tine.
I can see your point about the management hunt on the Paunsagaunt and how some of the hunters with regular LE tags are taking the bigger 3 x 4's...
That is not an issue on the Henry's..
Good post!
 
I think the management hunts are a waste. Everyone that applies is just looking for a trophy buck that meets the criteria rather than trying to cull out the genetically inferior bucks. If there are too many bucks on a unit they should just give out more tags.
 
I was on the Pauns for the whole management hunt this year and it was a really tough hunt. The hot weather held the migration up and the deer were spread out from the Pinks all the way across Hwy 89. We didn't see the amount of bucks we thought we would. Last year was totally different. The migration was about complete and the rut was closer. This year we only seen one buck that acted rutty. The management hunt is a perfect hunt for the youth and those who don't mind taking a 3 point with their LE points. I would by no means say that it is a canned hunt by any means though. This year was anything but.. Still a lot of fun and the Pauns is a really cool place. I think its going to take a few more years to see if the Management hunt has the effect they are hoping for. Overall though its a really fun hunt.
 
So let's say they just give out more tags...now you have that many more people shooting the big quality trophy status bucks and before long you are right back to where you used to be..
After a few years the "management bucks" will be your trophy bucks once you kill all the others...
I think the management plan on the Henry's is a good thing, where it weeds out some of the bigger bucks that nobody with a premium tag will shoot... Better than overkill, or just letting them die of old age!!!
I wonder about the Paunsaguant now...maybe they need to reduce permits for a few years?
 
I'm in that 1/3 of the permits senior group and I still have to agree with you antlerrick. I'm afraid, if it continues, the Pauns will be in a drastic downward slide. Spent a couple of days on top this year and didn't see the number of quality bucks that I've seen other years.
 
I think they should keep the mangment hunt for a few years AND cut the number of tags for all the other hunts for several years. The "BIG" buck numbers are down for that unit. I know of some locals that drew tags and turned the tag back because they werent seeing the quality that it used to be. Lots of medium class bucks and very few trophy class bucks.

They give way too many tags out for that unit. It is half or even less of the quality of the Henrys.

My choice is cut all tags in half for the unit but keep the managemnt for a few years until the trophy quality returns. Then still keep the tag numbers lower than they are now.
 
Yes there needs to be a management hunt on the Paunsaugunt. My dad had it this year, and my mom had the real buck tag last year. Most of the mature bucks on the unit are management bucks. There are some great bucks with 4x4 plus frames but they are not super common. I say keep the management hunt and allow a few more hunter to harvest mature 3x4's and such so they can enjoy the unit. By removing bucks that are mature with poor antlers the herd may be better off in the future.

Dillon
 
I understand that the really old management buck are definately detriment to have around, but how many of these other 3 x 4's will stay that way and not become a large trophy buck. I saw a video of a study of whitetails done by a university back East where these same buck we are killing now as mangement buck became big trophy racks when the feed was improved.

What scientific studies have really been made here in Utah with horn configuration and growth? I know of the yearly horn pick up from year to year, but do we really know.

The video I saw was very reveiling. You couldn't believe the difference, quite different from what we have been told out West. As I remember they did address those buck that will stay spikes, 2 x 3's, 3 x 4's or whatever, but they were the exception. Most grew to be trophies.
 
I think the management hunt is a good idea. Saw some pictures of deffinatley mature bucks that just did not have genteics to grow the regular 4 point set. In fact I think they need to open the management hunt to include some of the tall super narrow 4 points. Not sure how to do that, maybe say that a 4 point can be shot, but the rack must not extend wider then the ears?

But there are some goofy bucks that will be your breeders unless they get taken out of the equation too.
 
Funny Paul and thanks for the laugh. Not sure what you are referring to but I am sure you have some facts or 1st hand knowledge otherwise you would sound awful ignorant.....

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
Tony,

I agree. The quickest way to kill a really good deer herd is the inclusion of elk. I sure hope they don't increase the elk herd there, one is to many, but I'm sure that isn't going to change. The only hope we have is if they hold them to a minimum.
 
The need to close it for 5 years, and cut the tags in half. Then we may see deer like late 80's. It was once the best unit in the country if not NA for mule deer.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-13-10 AT 10:00AM (MST)[p]I was out on the Pauns yesterday. Every buck I saw qualified as a management buck. So... how many of these deer are just youngsters? As far as elk go, I keep hearing rumor of a few, but I have not seen one on the unit for a couple of years. I say open bull and return the Pauns to the general southern region. In about three years we can have a do over. Then close it for three years and start the entire process over again. I am confident in my assessment that the Pauns will never improve under the current plan. It really is a matter of whether the Fish & Game cares about what is going on. I personally think they gave up years ago. The only thing they do is what they are told to do. You have to love politics. I don't blame them. They can't win for losing.
 
Conch,

I was out on the Pauns Saturday and I certainly know what you're talking about. Most of what we saw were Management buck; however, I'm know some of those buck will not be anything but that, but I not convinced that all will stay that. I really think that some will be magnificent trophies. I was overwhelmed with the number of those types though.

One thing I was disappointed in was the low number of does we saw. I think these people in charge who say that the unit is at or above carrying capacity just because the trees have the lower vegetation eaten off. I need to remind them that the trees in question have been around the few waterholes. Go away from those areas and the vegatation is good, just no deer.

Hunters know the problem - NEED MORE WATERING AREAS. That is happening as we speak - it's a start - more needs to be done.

We saw one dead managment buck that was left for the crows and one that had a leg shot off. One in our group is contacting the DWR. I just wonder if the majority of those hunters are seasoned hunters or just out there for the first time of having a gun in their hands. Just a thought.

Conch, I agree with your philosophy, but it "ain't" going to happen. Government "DWR" can't turn it on and off that fast, so what's the best option? I really am not convinced that all those 3 X 4's will stay that way. It would be nice to have them tagged to see what happens to them in the coming years when they are shot. Is that really to much to ask our state management team "Utah". They "the deer" are certainly concentrated to the point a lot could be done in a couple of days of tagging. They are really dumb right now.

Last: Moving the ML Hunt to an earlier date really hurt my feelings. You see, I have a whole bunch of family getting a whole lot of points to qualify for that non-existant hunt. Change to Henries or wait for improvement - which? Back to the point I'll bet the lack of those concentrated trophy buck really hurt Mossback's pocketbook, but it is going to save trophy buck. I think that is a given. It may be a real blessing in future years.

Now let's get put that college text book thinking in the background, biologists, get away from the old Stereotypical thinking, roll up our sleeves and do some good old fashion work. Some that has some meaning!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-14-10 AT 08:55PM (MST)[p]I am confident that after a buck hits 3.5 yrs of age if he isn't a main frame 4x4 he probably won't ever be a 4x4. If anyone has ever picked up sheds from a 3.5 yr old buck with something less than a 4x4 mainframe and then picked up the bucks sheds the next year with a 4x4 or greater frame I would like to know about it. I just don't think it happens very often.

I have had the age on quite a few deer surprise me. Several years ago a friend's sister shot a 22" 4x4 that scored 140 and was 5.5 yrs old. After that experience I started paying lots of attention to bucks size and score and corresponding age. Many bucks (and also bulls) are older than people would guess them to be based on antler size.

As a yearling it is hard to tell too much. You can tell a great yearling because they will have blading, mass, extras, and I have even seen yearlings that were small 4 points. However, a yearling that is a small forky or a spike doesn't necessarily mean that that buck doesn't have a chance. It could be a late born fawn, or perhaps mom wasn't in good shape and didn't lactate well. Don't give up on a small yearling yet.

As a 2.5 yr old buck you will see lots of 16-18" 3 points, bucks with good potential will often be 18-20" 4 points, some will just be bigger 2 points. However, I give them the benefit of the doubt and wouldn't totally count them out yet.

By the time a buck hits 3.5 yrs if he doesn't have a 4x4 mainframe I strongly doubt he ever will. As the buck gets older it may pick up a cheater or 2 technically giving it more than 4 points, but it won't ever be a B&C type deer. A deer with B&C potential will be a good looking solid buck as a 3 yr old, in many cases a 24-26" 160" type buck.

Many B&C bucks are only 4.5 yrs old. They can still improve, but a buck that has great genetic potential will show it by the time it is 4.5.

I was out in the Book Cliffs with my father-in-law during the last half of the rifle hunt. We kept seeing 20-22" 3 points and 3x4's that were obviously 3.5+ yr old deer and he kept saying "that is going to be a good one next year". I disagreed.

I don't necessarily think the current management hunts will significantly improve the genetics on the Henrys and Pauns (for sure can't hurt though), but I do think it is a great way to keep sex ratios at a more healthy balance, remove excess bucks that the LE hunters wouldn't want, and provide opportunity for hunters without impacting trophy quality. I think the management tags are a great tool.



Dax

There is no such thing as a sure thing in trophy mule deer hunting.
 
After re-reading, the meaning is there, but it look as if I was a little fast and made errors with the grammar.
 
Dax you are correct as usual. Many don't understand age, genetics, and antler size.
 
I would like to be enlighten. Explain, if you will, how extensive your antler studies go.

While whitetails are not mule deer, they are still deer and the only conclusive study I have seen was where fenced in whitetails were studied over a period of years by an university back east. The change in horn growth and number of points is quite contrary to what you seem to be saying. While some was genetics, a lot was a change in feed and suppliments
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-15-10 AT 10:04PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-15-10 AT 10:00 PM (MST)

I have personally handled and aged 100's of dead bucks including bucks from CWMUs, limited entry bucks, and general season bucks. Based on dental development you can tell the age of 1.5 and 2.5 year old bucks 100% of the time. 3.5 and older bucks can be trickier, but looking at tooth wear can put you in the neighborhood. The only way to be totally sure on 3.5 and older bucks is through by slicing a front incisor and counting rings of cementum annuli.

I have also spent lots of hours looking at bucks and picking up sheds in the same areas multiple years. I have seen the same bucks and picked up sheds over multiple years and made note of their antler growth. I am not trying to claim I am the worlds foremost expert or a phD of deer age, but I am pretty confident with my assessment. There are always exceptions, but real world antler growth and development in mule deer is a lot closer to what I have explained that what you might see in a totally controlled environment with whitetail. If you don't believe me that is fine, but I stand by my analysis.

Here are photos of a crab clawed 4 point I saw the last 2 years in a row. My father-in-law would have seen him in 2009 and said "that thing is going to be a toad next year". He wasn't a toad in 2010, his basic antler structure stayed the same and he didn't gain that much mass, width, height, or tine length.

2009
crabs2009.jpg


2010
crabs2010.jpg



This post has some photos of management bucks I took a couple years ago. I have looked at a lot of these kind of bucks and think that with a little practice you can tell if a buck is mature and what kind of potential he has.
http://www.monstermuleys.info/cgi-b..._thread&om=17809&forum=DCForumID6&archive=yes

Here is one of my favorite management bucks from the last couple years.
oneeye.jpg


Long live the management hunts! I really like them and wish we still had them for elk too (I am not a fan of the spike hunt).



Dax

There is no such thing as a sure thing in trophy mule deer hunting.
 
Daxter,

Thank you Daxter for your insight. It will be very interesting to see the Pauns next year. Like Conch we saw mostly, and I mean mostly, management deer down there. this year.
 
Dax

Why don't you look into the Carl Webb buck killed on Maple Mountain about 10 years ago. It was a 26" 3x4 after 4 years and then its 6th year it was a 32" 212 typical 4x4. Nutrients and water have as much to do with antler size and probably even more then age class.

Goliath actually decreased after his 6th year which makes no sense other then water and nutrients.





Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
First they show me a video which shows that spikes and 2X3's can become 200+ giant bucks ------Then they tell me that 3X4's will always be 3X4's------Then they tell that isn't so and give an example of another 200+ buck coming from one of those management type buck------BOY AM I CONFUSED!!!-------Just not as confused as Utah DWR biologists!!!
 
management hunts cant hurt unless people shoot young deer. i am not 100 percent cretain that a 3x4 cant become a four point but i believe the majority stay with their main frame. i think the real problem on the pauns is the predators. lions specifically. i have found a bunch of mature bucks out there with broken necks. decrease tags and kill the lions and the pauns will be awesome again. just my opinion
 
Tony,

I don't disagree that there are occasional exceptions, but in general I stick with my assessment. The Webb buck was a 3x4 as a 4 yr old and then ended up making a run for state record typical 2 years later? I find that very hard to believe, but maybe. A buck that has been injured, gotten sick, or that lives in an area where habitat and available nutrition have been severely impacted might change quite a bit as conditions vary, but I still firmly believe that most bucks will give a pretty good preview of their trophy potential by the time they are 3.5 yrs old.

I still don't see how management hunts hurt anything. It is a great tool to take excess bucks that trophy hunters wouldn't want. Sure there may be a few young bucks with potential taken, but I think what we stand to gain far outweighs what the potential losses.


Dax

There is no such thing as a sure thing in trophy mule deer hunting.
 
Dax, let's say your right. I am not exaggerating when I say that 95% of the deer we saw, a couple of Saturdays ago, were management type of deer. If that's the case, next year is really going to be an eye opener. So what's being shot off the unit for management deer? The younger ones that shouldn't be shot? If there are that many, maybe a split season with some time between the two is needed. Maybe Conch has it right when he said open it up and exterminate the bucks we have there now and start over.

I buy some of it, but not all of it. I really think that the biologist's need to keep an open mind when it comes to this and also the way we count deer in Utah. Yes I understand to that person who keeps telling me that we really don't count deer in Utah. It comes off a computer from a few small regional counts. To the wildlife biologist management I am only saying improve what you are doing, be open minded. Get away from the textbook for a while, be a visonary. Even studies on whitetails from back East may teach you something. All of those sportsmen out there do not have it wrong. Good Grief!!!
 
I have been lucky enough to work as a guide and spotter on one of utah's premium cwmu's for the last six years. Doing this I have been able to watch many of the same bucks year after year. Occasionally a buck will improve past a management deer after a few years but it is rare. From what I have seen with my own eyes is a bucks frame will stay the same. I have watched countless hunters pass these big mature bucks. The management hunt is not perfect but it beat the alternative.
 
Josh, I tend to agree with your assessments. However, when the management hunt gets talked about it seems people want to wait twenty years to see what effect it will have on the unit.
My credentials? are twenty-five years of roaming the unit. I was around when it got closed for lack of deer and I have spent literarily thousands of hours on the unit since then, filming, hunting and just recreating. My primary focus has always been the mule deer. I have good friends that have degrees in biology and I always get their input before forming my opinions.
I truly think the best remedy for this particular unit is to open it up for two or three years. Then close it again for a few years. I think the turn around would be impressive. This would require a five or six year window instead of the current twenty year attempt that likely won't have any positive out come. Now with that said, I know this would require cooperation from the land owners. They would have to look past a few years of the current financial influx and think long term. In the end I think they would end up making as much or more money over a ten year period. It's sad to me that someone?s paycheck has to be figured into the equation. However, I'm realistic and I know this will not change. And in their shoes, who knows I might very well have the same attitude.
I'm trying not to ramble here, but it does require some explanation. Habitat is an issue on some portions of the unit. Mainly in my opinion, the North end of the Kaibab. This is key winter grounds and is in poor condition. I will say that twenty years ago when the herd was at full glory the habitat was in poor condition too. You might be too young to remember but you can ask Norman McKee about the poor habitat two decades ago.
Ok, so if we open it up, then close it for a period this allows some of the habitat projects in the works to take hold. Takes out all so called inferior bucks and takes the hunting pressure off for awhile.
We as sportsman have to decide what we really want. A unit that takes including a waiting period, fifteen years to draw. And then a mediocre experience at best. Or as in my case, I won't live long enough to draw again. I want to be able to go out and look at a healthy deer herd with a few mature specimens.
One last thought. I really question the Utah Fish & Game numbers. I would like to know how they are coming up with deer populations. I'm afraid they tend to count deer with a ?witching stick.? No disrespect intended but the only time I'm aware of actual physical deer counts is on quality summer range and around water holes during drought situations. This is a very flawed approach. And after the antelope fiasco on the Boulder this year, well? enough said.
I don't like to bag on the F&G. They have an impossible job keeping everyone happy. But I think it's time the man in charge steps up and sets politics aside. There job in my opinion is to manage a herd of deer and leave all the money making schemes out of the picture. Again, I'm realistic and know this won't happen until some group with the financial clout steps forward and drops a civil suit on the state for failure to manage for best interests of the herd. That's another can of worms and I don't want to go on a rant. Lol?
As my good friend Woodrow would say??spin-one.? No pun intended.
 
Conch, politics are almost impossible to crack, but here's one that might do the trick. Tripple the number of tags for a few years, make it a four point or bigger. It might sound crazy, but think about it. It would get rid of most of the 3 X 4's and the unit could stay open. The excessive bucks would be eliminated. Then the unit could be changed back. In business as well as this, "sometimes change is good". On the Henrie's it worked for several years until they made it a three point or better. Ask those who hunted there. With the added pressure and the cunning big buck who will make it through I think you would see a big difference as long as you don't hunt them in November.
 
Well...I have been keeping an eye on the heard east of Kanab. There were some semi-decent bucks that finally showed up. Then as luck would have it, we had some cold, wet weather. Numerous bucks ended up feeding along the highway, likely after salt was put down to melt the ice off the roads. I'm convinced 90 percent of these deer have been struck by vehicles. It's carnage for a thirty mile stretch of road. Bummer...
 
Years ago the last of November-first of December the doe ranged out on Five-Mile and Fin Little. You see very few deer there now. My buddy was down there last week and said a doe hunt was going on. Is the DWR out to ruin every herd we still have? Who sets these doe hunts?

Deer gather together for security amongst other things and I worry about the empty areas void of any deer down there as well as everywhere else in Utah. Can't they see?
 
I know a couple of doe hunters that had to go out and hunt a couple of days. They had a hard time finding a doe to take. Maybe my original thoughts apply here. Wipe the unit out and then have a do over. I don'tknow...
 

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