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fishon

fishon

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We have 3-4 times as high of buck to doe numbers today then we did in the early 90's. Our deer herds still are not fixed. Guess buck numbers are not the answer to fixing a deer herd. Maybe we should look at other factors like ELK and.

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
AND.... people in the hills all the time, trails and roads going up every canyon and along every ridge in the state, poor winter forage (most likely caused by drought and pollution), etc.
I think the list of factors is very long. Sure, I agree elk have negatively effected our deer herd, but they're just one small peice of the puzzle.
Although I wouldn't want to see it, even if we went back to an elk herd of 10k instead of 65k-75k, I don't think it would significantly help the deer herd.

In my opinion, there are a few things that can be done to help grow our deer herd a little, but I think we are very close to maxed out. The bottomline is, deer aren't just competing with elk, but people too, and there are a lot of people in this state. Very outdoor active people too! Lots of ATV's in this state, lots of camp trailers, etc. People going into the woods constantly effects the wildlife, and deer are very sensitive to disruption.

I think sportsmen may need to just except the fact that we will never have enough deer for us all to go out, buy a tag over the counter, drive up the mountain, and shoot a big buck every year. It won't happen. It never has and it never will.
And even if it did, within a few years the big bucks we're shooting would no longer be big enough to satisfy everyone.

Time and effort does need to be put forth to look into how to increase deer numbers, but IMO, more time and effort needs to be put forth to make what we have now last, and make it as good as we can. Sportsmen may need to give up some of our huge advantage over the game in order to give the game a better chance of survival.
Maybe road and trail closures, season date changes, season length changes, etc. are the answer...???? Heck, I would be all for a unit for scopeless rifles, sub-200 feet per second bows, old style muzzleloaders, etc.
If we want opportunity and quality going forward, sportsmen are going to have to give a little. I think that is the only way.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
I live in idaho and this year about midseason of the deer hunt we saw a lot of roads get gated off due to atv and other vehicle traffic and i think if they kept blocking off roads it could do wonders for our deer herds. we also have traditional muzzleloader hunts which really put restrictions on the capability but make for a very interesting and exciting hunt. since muzzleloaders seem to be advancing on technology so much they are almost like an actual rifle in some situations, sure they wont take the 300 yd. shot but accuracy and reliability so i think its pointless to have a muzzleloader hunt that isnt traditional only.
hope more roads close!
 
AND, my opinion posted above is the same opinion I have for Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado, and other states. Those really late rifle hunts in Colorado need to go. There does not need to be rut hunts when people are sitting on the sidelines cause they can't draw a tag. Shooting big bucks is fun, but ACTUALLY getting to go hunting is more fun.
Colorado should do away with rut hunts and offer more tags in October. Hunts DON'T have to be easy.

[font size=+1]AND, managing for 100% succes is nuts!!!!!!![/font]

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Well on rare occasions I'm near a Puter for Lunch!

So Screw Lunch!

On even rarer occasions I'll have to agree with a couple of Posts above!

Come on fishon!

There's more to the equation than just Elk being the problem!

It's always amazed me that Colorado has them 4th season hunts and anything survives?

A few will disagree(especially the 4th season tag holders that are hunting Colorado as we speak!)but a hunt that late is total BS!

So fishon?

You wanna blame the Elk & Only Elk for the condition of the Struggling deer herd in Utah? WTF?

We could blame the Deer for the Quality of the Elk in Utah but we know that's not gonna happen!

There are many factors why the Deer Herd in Utah is Suffering!

As I've said a Billion times:I just don't see serious enough changes being made to fix the problems!

The average TARD would SCREAM & BAWL like a baby!

TOUGH TITTY!

Well I best get back to work!




God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
 
I agree with what has already been said. The problems (plural) facing our mule deer herds are complex and complicated. I have not heard Tony say that elk are solely responsible for the decline of our mule deer herds. What I have heard him say is that he thinks that the increase in elk numbers may be part of the problem and that the UDWR has NEVER conducted a study to see if there is any correlation between increasing elk numbers and decreasing deer numbers. I vote to do the study and find out.

Since we are all busy playing wildlife biologist, I will join in the fray. Based upon my experience and limited research, I would rank the causes for the decline of Utah's mule deer as follows:

1. Predators (cougars, coyotes and black bears);
2. Motor vehicle fatalies;
3. Increasing in elk numbers;
4. Loss of and decline in quality of critical winter habitat--primarily in Northern Utah; and
5. Hunting.

Hawkeye




Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
I told Tony this 8 or 9 years ago. He told me that Deer and Elk don't compete, that doesn't seem to be his stance now.
 
>[font size=+1]AND, managing for 100% succes
>is nuts!!!!!!![/font]
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com

dkpeay would probably beg to differ......
 
How about private cattle grazing on public land. In the wilderness even! I just got back from Colorado, and there wasn't much left on the winter range after the herds of cattle trampled and ate everything in site. No grass left, junipers trimmed up higher than a deer can reach. Graze your cattle on you own land.
 
Good call blacktailBC-

Think about it- the state pays hundreds of private landowners fees or tags for wildlife depridation. We pay them for their 'damaged' resources which they fail to protect. Then we turn around and let private beef companies pay us in order to damage our BLM and National Forest lands with their free ranging cattle (rather than force their cattle to graze their own land)... The deer herd then thrives on the private land (where the cattle are not), while it is hurt on the BLM and National Forest grounds... So who benefits their..??

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
Jason is correct in saying all I want is a study done to see if elk are affecting deer and if so how they are affecting them. And 8 or 9 years ago I did not believe elk and deer competed and my opinion has changed based on the last 8 or 9 years of being involved. we also have 8,000 more elk then we did 8 or 9 years ago.

So what is your point?

There are lots of things that affect deer but the one we have not done ANY research on is elk. It is the only one we have not investigated.

There are no deer left where I hunted for the last 15 years but there are lots of elk. There has to be some sort of explanation for that.

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
My point is that some of us new there was a problem then, and had we started investigating back then things could have been different.
 
I agree, wildlife biologists need to know how elk effect deer. Have there never been any studies in any other states??
If not, then Utah should do it.

We have LOTS of conservation tag money, lets spend it on a study. In fact, IMO, it would be nice to see a study that looks at the effect of human activity in the mountains too. I would bet that the activity and development of humans effect deer far more than elk, or even predators.

Years ago, when we were first trying to form a mule deer committee here in Utah, that was the purpose of forming the committee, was to look at things like this. Had it happened, with a purpose, the questions may have already been answered. At the time, UDWR did not want no mule deer committee and there was very little support for the committee because I believe there were many who were afraid of recommendations that could hurt the bottomline.
What ever happened to the mule deer committee? Is it still in existance?

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
I hunted Colorado this year and there were several? thousand sheep in the unit I was hunting. I arrived before the season to do some scouting and was in this one area and noticed when I got out of the truck that the ground had been eaten to the dirt and it was solid sheep droppings.

Later in the hunt I noticed a tag affixed to one of my tent stakes and it was a friendly reminder from a park ranger not to leave the road in this Unit even to retrieve my game.

I got to thinking about the damage all the sheep were doing to the Unit and just chuckled to myself about how that would compare to using my vehicle to retrieve my deer.

I know the park ranger had the best of intent, but I think it is silly relative to the damage those sheep were doing to the range.

That can't be helping the deer herd in that Unit.
 
Tony:

I would like you to correct me if I'm wrong....

West of Tremonton to Nevada, South of the Utah Idaho border, let's say 30 or so miles, there
are some, but not many elk. So, are the mule
deer populations booming here??? It's been several years since I've hunted it, so I was wondering??

Specifically, Park Valley, Grouse Creek, etc...
 
Tony correct me if I am wrong here? Your not a fan of elk? In your perfect world Utah would have a-lot more deer habitat than elk would. I am saying even more than what exists right now?

You come across as a mule deer advocate even at the expense of our elk herds?

I base this assumption from listening to your show in the past and your opinions here on MM?
 
How long have elk been there? You might want to ask that. Were they there 60 years ago? I have not done my history on that area, but from what I recall, those elk migrated out there to Grouse Creek, Park Valley, and Pilot Mountain. Although there is a small established herd there, I don't think they were there historically. So, you maybe ought to pick a place that does not have any elk......maybe hard to do. Maybe Antelope Island, although the Division did try a transplant of elk out there in the early 90's. At any rate, elk are only one factor of many that may be affecting deer herds. As Founder said, it is only one piece of a puzzle. As I said in another post, increasing the deer herd is a lot harder than most would think. And no, saving bucks/cutting tags does not increase the population. To my knowledge, no biologist has ever indicated that.
 
How many years do you guys think it takes for a buck to reach B&C proportions? If you said 6-8 years you are probably pretty close. That means a buck has to live through at least 5 or 6 hunting seasons and winters to mature. How many mild winters have been in your area that stretch 6 to 8 years? How many spring/summers have had super browse growth and no drought for that period of time? It almost sounds like you guys are asking for miracles!

It is pretty obvious to me that elk can withstand adverse conditions a little better than muledeer? The last time I checked elk were grazers and muledeer browers so during the summer months they aren't competing much for food. It is likely the winter months where elk compete with deer and they are often limited to the same winter range and often compete for the same food. Do ya think an elk can reach higher into tall brush and withstand deeper snow than a deer in winter? Obviously every area is a little different but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that elk can likely out-compete deer on most winter ranges!

Obviously tag numbers, hunter access, loss of winter range, water availability, predators, competition with livestock/wildlife are all factors. A buck may reach 6-8 years of age in some parts of the country but may never produce outrageous head gear without the right genetics and nutrition.

The odds are stacked against a buck ever reaching 6-8 years of age and anything that wildlife managers, ranchers, etc can do to improve this will likely help. Plainly put...muledeer are wimps and if they don't have the right weather conditions to survive winters and produce super browse it will be pretty tough to improve quality and numbers. Also, someone above mentioned buck:doe ratios. Buck:doe ratios may not matter if bucks don't reach maturity!

The last time I checked there was a lot of belly-aching in Utah in regard to hunters not being able to draw limited elk tags? Now that Utah increased bull tags hunters are complaining about the lack of quality and the lower age class of bulls. It's pretty hard to please everyone and if you want to see an improvement in deer quality in Utah or anywhere else you will likely need to sacrifice drawing many tags in your lifetime...and allow muledeer bucks to age to 6-8 years!
 
What I do and don't get is this...

Colorado has about 3 to 4 times the number of elk we have in the state of Utah and and an even greater multiple factor of Deer. I hunt CO and am amazed at the game they have there and elk and deer are in the same places and seemingly coexisting well for the most part. I believe CO has done a much better job of protecting (private and public) winter range and that is likely one very important element.

I'm also amazed that despite 3rd (was a week later this year) and 4th season hunts they are still well over objective on Elk and Deer in most all units. Overall average success in CO is still about 28 to 30% per year. They have more animals, more opportunity and the number of tags they sell ($$) is incredible.

I think they have planned better, managed better and have populations (and some quality) to be envious of. We need to take a hard look at CO. I don't think elk are in the top 10 factors of why our deer herds are hurting in UT.

We have CWMUs in UT that are FLUSH with great deer populations but they are and have been for years managed to an extent by the DWR and micro-managed by many unit managers. If we can see success like this in CWMUs we can replicate this elsewhere in the state(where habitat affords it).

B_K
 
> Good call blacktailBC-
>
> Think about it- the state
>pays hundreds of private landowners
>fees or tags for wildlife
>depridation. We pay them for
>their 'damaged' resources which they
>fail to protect. Then we
>turn around and let private
>beef companies pay us in
>order to damage our BLM
>and National Forest lands with
>their free ranging cattle (rather
>than force their cattle to
>graze their own land)... The
>deer herd then thrives on
>the private land (where the
>cattle are not), while it
>is hurt on the BLM
>and National Forest grounds... So
>who benefits their..??
>
>"Therefore, wo be unto him that
>is at ease in Zion!"
>2 Ne. 28: 24

Its not really fair to assume that all cattleman and private landowners are decimating deer herds or winter range for them That would be the same as putting you in the same category as a poacher Not saying you are so i think that before you go there with that argument you shouldn;t put us cattlemen in that boat. I have never taken a penny for loss of hay or damages to fences etc And i have never missed a single payment for my use of the national forest and grazing of it Not trying to stir sh t up on here either but i think i have done more as a cattleman for the deerherd than the biggest majority of so called mule deer enthusiasts around these parts With my fifth generation cattle ranch in south east idaho where some of the greatest bucks taken is at I have the unique blessed opportunity to watch and really observe what is happening with the deer herd right here Have actually let the f and g bring in a chopper and nets to radio collar fawns and does to see whats happening with our herd Taken time and my own personal snowmachine to help the biologists get to the dead fawns to see what is causing the deaths From what i am seeing it is the simple fact that we do not have the mature bucks to breed the does on the first second and sometimes third heat cycle The does have small fawns born to late and small to make the next winter Our winters havent been nearly as harsh as years ago Simple fact The does need bred earlier or mother nature needs to put winter off for a few more months
 
The grass is always greener...!

If you've been in a general elk area in Colo much during the rifle seasons it can be pretty dangerous with orange on just about every hillside and 4 wheelers on every knob! Colo may have numbers of elk but quality? The DOW has problems controlling elk numbers because the hunting pressure on public land pushes a lot of game onto private where it sits out the season.

I wouldn't exactly say deer numbers in Western Colo are above objective? Most units lost 1/2 their herd a couple winters ago and most of the deer that died were fawns and older age class bucks. I compliment the CDOW in cutting tag numbers in 1/2 in most units but as most of you have noticed it is taking much longer to draw tags. Just keep your fingers crossed that we don't have another horrible winterkill the next few years or it will really set back the deer.

The top elk units in Colo that take 18+ pref pts to draw a hunter will be super lucky to get a 340+ bull. Not sure if that is trophy class but it's a nice bull and a once in a lifetime tag for who ever draws those tags. Some guys think it's great that Colo offers unlimited elk hunting but it's kind of hard to get too terribly excited hunting spike and raghorn bulls. Some people have been trying to push to all limited elk in Colo...upon deaf ears. The potential is there for elk and hopefully some year it will happen.

I would have to agree that Colo currently does a pretty good job of managing deer. If you remember back a few years you will remember that Colo used to have general deer tags just like the current elk. Once Colo converted to all limited quota tags the quality of bucks improved dramatically. To top it all off we had quite a few mild winters. There were actually quite a few bucks in the 6-8 year old range until we had a super bad winter 2 years ago. I wouldn't say Colo is any different than UT in regard to it's winter range. There is development in most Colo winter ranges right up to the edge of federal/state land!
 
Tony,
You seem to change your mind and views fairly often? Would you still believe the elk were evil if you were put on the RMEF board? Just curious?

But to back you on this issue. I believe the elk push the deer out in some places. Just one more reason we should micro manage each deer herd. That way if the elk were found to be hurting deer numbers on said unit, we could make a desicion on whether to harvest more elk or be fine with less deer on that unit. Seems like every issue whether it is big or small could be addressed better in a micro managment world? But I think too many are afraid what some of those answers would be. Maybe some just don't trust the DWR would actually look for answers?

There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 
SO I have a question, what is the difference between killing loved crazed mule deer in CO on the 4th season, and loved crazed elk in the heat of the rut in UT? Alot of guys saying CO is stupid to have late rut hunts are the same guys proclaiming the greatness of rut rifle hunts for elk in UT?????
 
I am glad that you realize your ideas are laughable. I makes it alot easier to understand where your coming from.

We all know the elk is minor flip flop. Kind of interesting how fishon brings to mind a big old trout flippin around the bottom of boat when you land it. Just flippin and floppin all over the place.

There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 
Cody you are the laughable one. To be so ignorant to think elk may not be a problem is funny.

There are not enough deer, you don't think elk could be part of it?

What are you doing to help the deer herd? That is an honest question.

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
 
To say that elk don't affect deer shows ignorance.

A major study on mule deer at USU (about 6 years ago, by Dr. Baker, I think) found that elk are a major cause of mule deer decline; both directly and indirectly increasing many other factors contributing to mortality of mule deer.

The main reason is that elk force wintering/breeding/fawning deer out of the prime habitat and into less desirable habitat. The less desirable habitat decreases foraging ability, increases mortality by predators (including late-season hunters and even poachers), forces deer closer to towns/roads/ATV trails... all of which increases mortality, either directly or indirectly; those factors also decrease fawning rates among healthy does.

We can all point to anecdotal evidence such as a specific area that does not have elk yet still has low deer densities (Park Valley or Grouse Creek), we can also point to areas that saw a major decrease in deer numbers when elk numbers increased (San Juan in Utah, or a private ranch I hunted last week in Montana).

Just because somebody has this belief does not mean they are calling for the extermination of elk, but increased elk populations should not equate to the extermination of deer. We could have different micro-units managed for different species, a little something for everyone.

Hunting management has become so full of special-interest groups that we are no better than the federal government (opportunits v. trophy hunters v. ranchers v. CWMU v. outfitters).

Just my opinion.

Grizzly
 
So....all of this being said, has anyone proposed a viable solution to our deer problems? Or are we all arguing about it?

I've seen Tony and others cry "elk" on more than one occasion, yet nobody has bothered to offer up what the solution to the elk "problem" might be.

Do elk impact deer herds? Probably. Is it the main factor our deer herd are hurting? Not likely.

As others have mentioned, there are quite a few examples of elk and deer herds being healthy simultaneously if we just look around some. I think the bottom line is that each area, especially in utah, is unique. In some areas the biggest cause of the deer decline is a freeway or a subdivision. In some areas it's coyotes and cats. In some areas it's roads that lead guys on ATVs to the spot that used to be grandpa's honey hole.

There's not one broad brush that will fix this problem. It's multifaceted with numerous causes and possible solutions. I'm not smart enough or educated enough to know exactly what the answer is, but I hope we can figure it out soon.
 
I appoligize if this was said I did not read all the posts.

In my experience, I have never encountered an area that had large populations of deer and elk in the same area. Yes in the winter range to some extent but in the other 3 seasons my experience has been high deer equals low elk. High elk equals low deer, finally there may be average to low numbers of both.
It is not the answer to everything but I am sure like all other possibilities, having very high numbers of elk can be PART of the problem.

Again, no scientific study here, just my personal experience and no I have not been on every acre of the western U.S.

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
 
Come on Tony actually read my post! I said I agree that elk could be an issue. I could actually show some places I hunt that would make great examples for your arguement. What I disagree with I that you are using that arguement to try and sway people anyway from option 2. When in reality that should definatly be a reason to support such and option!

There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 
Tony,
I apologize for the personal jabs, totally uncalled for on my part. We are all passionate about the future of deer that is one thing we can agree on and as long as we keep it civil we will come up with the best solutions. So again I apologize!
I promise I don't want to see us lose hunters! However we are at a point with the herd that some magor changes must take place. If we can get the numbers up there is no reason we could not exceed the 90,000 mark. If we continue to lose deer we will all have nothing to hunt. 29 units is just a start to focus on each herds needs. The fact that the DWR is saying 13,000 tag need to be cut makes me believe they feel we are currently over harvesting somewhere in the state? Unit management does not have to mean loss of oppurtunity if we do it right....FACT!


There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.
 
I personally would like to see the impact of the shorter seasons before they get too carried away with tag cuts. I personally think if they'll maintain the shorter seasons for a few years, we'll see better quality.
As for total deer numbers, that's a tough call. I think we're real close to carrying capacity, so that is where Tony and I wouldn't see eye to eye.

I think small tag cuts are OK, but not too much. 13,000 is a lot. If I were in charge, I would keep tag numbers where they are, continue with the shorter seasons, look into potential seasonal road closures, structure season dates for low success rate to maximize opportunity, implement point restrictions in a few areas and study that, and encourage more primitive weapon hunts. That would be to increase buck quality.
To increase the overall herd, I would begin with a study to get a firm understanding as to whether the state can really support more deer.

They should just put me in charge!

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Can someone explain how they project cutting 7000 tags if you stay region based. But if you go unit based they cut 13000?
We are talking about the same area here, only divided differently.
Both numbers seem arbitrary to me anyway.
How can they know at this point how many tags to cut.
They haven't counted deer on these units. maybe they cut more maybe they cut less.
Wouldn't they have to count every year and adjust numbers every year depending on population?
 
Be careful with over exstensive arial deer counts Personally witnessed in Idaho a little to close and hard of chase on the deer in a critical winter stage After the chopper left (which could have hoovered and counted) ran deer so hard The coyotes came in and pounced on the exhausted deer I was fired up and got my video camera out Filmed for a while and walked away before i started shooting with something other than a camera
This is i know There were not as many deer left as they counted SAD DEAL
 

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