AWHOLELOTTABULL
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,357
Another post from a friend. I wish I was this smart. Makes perfect sense though and I have to laugh at the last part!!
B_BOP_A_LU_LU asked:
?Can somebody tell me what the multiplication factor is when the see/count one Deer??
Here is an answer along with some other things to consider:
When they fly for elk they add a factor of 1.25, to account for missed animals. Regardless of the count, good or bad, it gets reported at 1.25.
I've never heard them say if they use that to multiply for deer but I know for a fact they do for elk so you can draw your own conclusion on what they do to the deer count.
No way to accurately count mule deer, too dispersed, too small, too easy to hide from the chopper. No possible way to do it from a fixed wing and live!
Deer counts are always estimated on public land. Good biologists learn where their herds bunch up in the early winter, then they count those same locations every year. After they've counted 30 or 40 locations for 20 to 30 years they start to see trends. They make sure they have representative areas on the range they are studying. They count locations high on the range, locations midrange, and locations at the bottom of the range. That way, regardless of the winter, if the deer are high, they get counted, if there are midrange they get counted and if they are low they still get counted.
Apparently the DWR no longer count Utah herds in this manner any more. I understand they count seven areas (units?) then use that data in their computer simulator and extrapolate those numbers across the rest of the State.
Regarding buck/fawn/doe ratios for each unit they say they count each unit until they have counted from 400 to 700 deer. Assume the rest of the unit has the same ratios.
We could argue from now until hell freezes over if their methods are statistically valid. One group of scientists would claim they are valid, another group would claim they are not. Ever heard of global warming, 50 million different opinions, who's right?
These are the observations people, including hunters, biologists, livestock-men, and others who are interacting with deer year round, not just for 3 to 9 days on the deer hunt, are reporting. These people are claiming deer counts have been trending down in large areas of the State for many years. They claim they used to see X number deer, now they are seeing far less. Some are reporting "gut counts" such as farmers that report they used to have over X number in there hay fields now they have very few if any. Still others, wildlife biologists (not DWR staff) are using very scientific counts as I described above, these counts have been made every year for the last 25 years or longer, traveling to the same locations they have counted for decades. These biologists claim they have been counting fewer deer. Trappers, loggers, fishermen, hunters, atv'ers, cabin owners, and countless others in the rural communities where the bulk of the deer in the State live are reporting the same thing, fewer and fewer deer. When little old ladies with cabins on the mountain are complaining to their hair dresser there are hardly any deer eating their rosebushes anymore, the trend is easy to see, especially when it is consistent with what your seeing with our own eyes, ie: ?gut counts?.
What's frustrating for some of us is being told by people that live hundreds of miles away, who may have never set foot on the unit, tell us we are; ?hillbillies, trophy hunters, idiots, fools, uneducated, dividers, and special interest groups?.
Aren't our law degrees, medical degrees, our biology degrees, forestry degrees, math and statistical analysts degrees, computer scientists degrees, accounting degrees, our university professors, our retailers our wholesalers, our taxidermists, our farmers, our ranchers, our geologists, our veterinarians as intelligent as those that live hundreds of miles away.
Does having an archery shop or a gun store or a taxidermy shop in one community make you more intelligent and clear minded that someone with the same occupation a few hundred miles to the east, west, north or south? If you have a radio show does that mean you have deeper a understanding of wildlife? If you work for DWR does that make you smarter than if you work for the Forest Service, the BLM, or Chevron Oil Company? Do 600 people from a community 150 to 250 miles from your community understand better what you see and experience than you do?
How is it all these folks from hundreds of miles away know so much more about our yard that we do?
They must be amazing people, yes, they most certainly are amazing people, don't you think?
It's always an adventure!!!
B_BOP_A_LU_LU asked:
?Can somebody tell me what the multiplication factor is when the see/count one Deer??
Here is an answer along with some other things to consider:
When they fly for elk they add a factor of 1.25, to account for missed animals. Regardless of the count, good or bad, it gets reported at 1.25.
I've never heard them say if they use that to multiply for deer but I know for a fact they do for elk so you can draw your own conclusion on what they do to the deer count.
No way to accurately count mule deer, too dispersed, too small, too easy to hide from the chopper. No possible way to do it from a fixed wing and live!
Deer counts are always estimated on public land. Good biologists learn where their herds bunch up in the early winter, then they count those same locations every year. After they've counted 30 or 40 locations for 20 to 30 years they start to see trends. They make sure they have representative areas on the range they are studying. They count locations high on the range, locations midrange, and locations at the bottom of the range. That way, regardless of the winter, if the deer are high, they get counted, if there are midrange they get counted and if they are low they still get counted.
Apparently the DWR no longer count Utah herds in this manner any more. I understand they count seven areas (units?) then use that data in their computer simulator and extrapolate those numbers across the rest of the State.
Regarding buck/fawn/doe ratios for each unit they say they count each unit until they have counted from 400 to 700 deer. Assume the rest of the unit has the same ratios.
We could argue from now until hell freezes over if their methods are statistically valid. One group of scientists would claim they are valid, another group would claim they are not. Ever heard of global warming, 50 million different opinions, who's right?
These are the observations people, including hunters, biologists, livestock-men, and others who are interacting with deer year round, not just for 3 to 9 days on the deer hunt, are reporting. These people are claiming deer counts have been trending down in large areas of the State for many years. They claim they used to see X number deer, now they are seeing far less. Some are reporting "gut counts" such as farmers that report they used to have over X number in there hay fields now they have very few if any. Still others, wildlife biologists (not DWR staff) are using very scientific counts as I described above, these counts have been made every year for the last 25 years or longer, traveling to the same locations they have counted for decades. These biologists claim they have been counting fewer deer. Trappers, loggers, fishermen, hunters, atv'ers, cabin owners, and countless others in the rural communities where the bulk of the deer in the State live are reporting the same thing, fewer and fewer deer. When little old ladies with cabins on the mountain are complaining to their hair dresser there are hardly any deer eating their rosebushes anymore, the trend is easy to see, especially when it is consistent with what your seeing with our own eyes, ie: ?gut counts?.
What's frustrating for some of us is being told by people that live hundreds of miles away, who may have never set foot on the unit, tell us we are; ?hillbillies, trophy hunters, idiots, fools, uneducated, dividers, and special interest groups?.
Aren't our law degrees, medical degrees, our biology degrees, forestry degrees, math and statistical analysts degrees, computer scientists degrees, accounting degrees, our university professors, our retailers our wholesalers, our taxidermists, our farmers, our ranchers, our geologists, our veterinarians as intelligent as those that live hundreds of miles away.
Does having an archery shop or a gun store or a taxidermy shop in one community make you more intelligent and clear minded that someone with the same occupation a few hundred miles to the east, west, north or south? If you have a radio show does that mean you have deeper a understanding of wildlife? If you work for DWR does that make you smarter than if you work for the Forest Service, the BLM, or Chevron Oil Company? Do 600 people from a community 150 to 250 miles from your community understand better what you see and experience than you do?
How is it all these folks from hundreds of miles away know so much more about our yard that we do?
They must be amazing people, yes, they most certainly are amazing people, don't you think?
It's always an adventure!!!
