Mule Deer Forum - Thoughts?

[190MuleyHunter]

I was unable to attend but listened to the entire broadcast. I would like to hear from those that were present their perspective. What did the rest of us miss?

I personally feel that something more drastic needs to happen. At this stage, it appears that the legislature may be the only force capable of that. Just like ut did back in the early 1900s when it closed hunting for 5 years or so. I believe that needs to happen again. Take drastic measures in the short term to produce the best long term effects.

It's obvious that there is not an accurate account for the number of deer in the state. And most who spend time afield feel that it is far less than what they claim. We even heard tonight that biologist manage deer spending time on a computer and not in the field. That tells me that biologist are out of touch with what is really happening. At least it would be tough to really know when your behind your computer more that you are putting miles in your hiking boots.

Let's hear your thoughts on the forum. It's great to see this kind of attention on our beloved Mule Deer.

 

[LOWCOUNTRY]

I dont have the faith in the 302,000 deer population. I think its far lower. I as well as most feel Utah is in a losing fight concerning deer. I really liked the forum and agreed with alot of points and disagreed with a few as well. I think its good there is so much debate taking place and many new ideas brought to the table that havent been put into any of the options. I appreciate all who worked to put this forum together very informative.

I also would like to know what I missed after 8 p.m. and is there any audio of this entire broadcast archived? Had to work late so I mised the first 30 minutes.

 

[Broomer]

Attended, It was very fluid throughout the broadcast. There wasn't any lack of content that is for sure. As for after the end of the broadcast there wasn't much said except a few thoughts on cutting tags and predator control.

To me this forum was very informative and very educational. A few things really stuck out to me that I feel every sportsmen should take to heart.

1- Regardless of the deer numbers (we really don't know how many there are) the biggest threat to our herd is "Predators" mainly coyotes, and "Habitat".

Habit is a work in progress. It will most likely take many more years to see the fruits of the labor on the habitat restoration projects. This will help but it will be a long term thing.

2- Coyote control. I took out of the forum some facts and some assumptions. Fact- coyotes are not managed so there is an open season on them. Fact- that they are the biggest concern for wildlife officials when it comes to fawn survival. Fact- that the DWR doesn't have the money to put in place a strong predator control program. Assumption- that Director Kaparawits wants us to all go out and shoot the coyotes so he doesn't have to come up with the money. My take on this is that even with an open season on them the vast majority of sportsmen don't have the time, money, or the real passion to hunt Coyotes on a large scale. This needs to be a priority for the DWR to find a budget for this and implement it or increase the funds to make it more effective. If they had better control over JUST Coyotes the overall health of the deer herd would be stronger. This in turn would increase survival rates on yearling/fawns bucks and doe. These bucks would then mature and we'd see more bucks and bigger ones over all.

3- That the wildlife board and the RAC's have a real negative public perception. As the saying goes "perception is reality" and the reality for a huge majority of sportsmen is that once the Wildlife board comes up with an idea, plan, or proposal and mandates the DWR to gather public input that they have already made their decision. On this issue of the 3 options I learned that the wildlife board wanted to divide the state up into the 29 units and mandated the DWR to come back with data or public input or what ever and that the DWR created Option 1 as an alternative because they don't prefer going to the 29 units.

4- According to the representative from the legislator we can get the Governor's attention regarding the wildlife board and RAC's by contacting our local delegate and with as little as 10 voices we can mandate him/her to take our concerns to the capital. This really stuck out to me. Though I follow politics on a national level and somewhat on a local level I believe there are far less sportsmen who don't even care about politics to know that they can change the game. And if we as sportsmen want to take back control of the ideas and philosophies' about how to manage wildlife all we need to do is push every delegate to take it to the legislator.

The idea that came to me during this topic was that the wildlife board just randomly picked a deer management idea and ran with it thinking an idea needed to be thought up when in reality "perception" nothing needed to be brought up for another 3 years after the original plan was carried out. They mandate to the DWR and here we are at Jordan Commons debating it. The WB doesn't seem to have any accountability to their proposals. I asked the question to myself is there something we as sportsmen can propose to the governor for how the WB make decisions/proposals and can they be accountable for them. I think there is but it would take a real organized effort to mandate out delegates to take action.

I think that for a short term reward/result on overall herd populations we need to kill the Coyotes and not just in the winter range but up in the summer range as well.

So will this change the decision on the 2nd of Dec? It could if they get enough back lash on all three options they could decide to just stay at status quo.

 

[B_BOP_A_LU_LU]

Thanks for the Info!

"Stay at status quo"?

A few more years of status quo & you can kiss it(Deer Herd/Hunt) goodbye & then they'll close it!

Ya ever notice in TARDville?

Instead of proper management they just hunt Game out until it has to be closed,WTF?

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!

I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!

 

[soutahhunter]

Yes, lets just stay at status quo and we can all be through hunting in a year or two. It is scary to think there are people out their who want to just go on as normal and think it will all get better. We need to do something drastic and now, not a year from now. If DWR cannot get option 2 ready this year, then they should close the state until they can, we cannot afford another year of the same.

 

[fishon]

Thanks to all who attended and to all who listened in. Yes this is the hottest topic we have had in sometime and this has also helped awaken a sleeping giant in my mind.

What is CLEAR is all sportsman want the herd fixed and what is also clear is cutting hunters has not and will not fix the herd.

There are many things that are being done but there are many more that can be done. The question is will we all just hide behind a computer screen and complain or will we do our part to fix the herds?

I will be at the board meetings the next 2 days as I hope you all will. My state representative is now involved as I hope you all would get yours involved.

This won't be fixed by lip service or buying your $40 deer tag, this needs a lot more thought and then real action with our pocketbooks.

I am in it for the long haul and I will do what I can and rally those that I believe will contribute rather then complain.

This was not the last meeting we will have like this.

If you are just gonna sit by and point fingers and blame then don't bother interacting with me. But if you wanna get after it and save our heritage and deer herds then I have all day to sit with you and come up with and implement a plan.

I guess as they say in poker....... "I'M ALL IN".

Anyone gonna push in with me?

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
UTAH HAS TOO MANY LAND CARP!

 

[nebo12000]

Tony, if you had the ultimate power to implement any proposal or change you wanted -- what would you do. If you had $10,000,000(not the real current DWR budget) to divide up to run your progam, how would you do it. Remember, you have to please everybody, not just your own personal preferences. You have to please the guys who want unit by unit hunting, the guys who want to hunt every year, the guys who want to have a better than average chance to kill a large mature deer every year or even every other year. You have to please the guys who think that just the experience of being in the outdoors is more important than seeing bucks,you have to please the guys who think we need to shut down hunting fpor a few years, you have to convince Anis that we are not at carrying capacity yet, you have to find a way to please the houndsmen because they make an income from guiding cougar hunters, you have to please the agricultural folks because of depredation problems, you have to find a way to reduce the number of predators like they did when 1080 poison was still legal, you have to make sure that their is appropriate funding available to run the DWR which includes all programs-- big game, waterfowl, fishing,endangered species, etc.(most of which is actually funded by big game hunters, they are the only ones that truly more than adequately fund their part)
If you can come up with a plan to give everybody everything they want and make it work both for the benefit of wildlife and the hunter, then we can all go back to making a living and taking care of our families and looking forward to taking our kids hunting in the fall and seeing good bucks to chase.
I personally appreciate your zeal and passion. Certainly some things need to change and what is going on will help that to happen.

 

[Sidehill]

Fishon and to all those who helped put last nights meeting together I personally would like to thank you. I think that it helped expose alot of BS going on throughout our rac and our WB. I personally can only hope that alot more people will start to stand up and get involved in matter's. I think that there was alot of good points brought up throughout the meeting on many different subjects. I feel that one subject in general is very important and that is that the options we are presented with are more of a social issue on how we are able to hunt than a biological fact for our deer herds. I would hope that if the wildlife board is going to change our current deer plan that it would be with one that is biologically sound and based on facts and not assumptions. I feel that none of the three options that were presented to all of us are nothing more than another patch or bandage with little to no biological fact. I know that there are many different factors concerning our deer herds. However I can't even believe how are herd count's are being conducted it blows me away. I think there needs to be a major overhaul in this area alone that includes mandatory harvest data on every issued tag every year and alot more actual field data gathered throughout all units not just a handfull and when I say field data I mean actual good old on the ground foot work not estimation's on there computer models.

 

[nebo12000]

Sidehill said-I think that it helped expose alot of BS going on throughout our rac and our WB.
So tell me who on the RACs are BSing you or any hunter ?

 

[2lumpy]

Tony,
We're all into too.

What's why I asked to be included on the panel last evening. It seems you would have wanted to know in some depth why the unit management proposal is being considered. It seems like you would have welcomed a voice from the sportsmen that awakened this sleeping giant (your words not mine).

Why, if you refused to allow us to participate at the panel level last night would you expect any of us to attend last night's meeting.

We're all in pardner, make no mistake, but we're not going to come and listen to Steve Brown and your legislator toss softball marshmellows to an orchestrated panel of people, that you have said you'd spent the "last few weeks with, everyday" (your word's not mine).

Tony, you knew I would call you out on this when I asked you if I could participate. I am.

You come on here and beg sportsmen to come together and to attend your meetings then you won't allow a open forum. Sorry man, you are an open book. You want people the support you, Tony Abbott, you want attention, you want status, you want to be relevant, well you got what you wanted last night.

Your right this not over, there will be a lot more meeting, we'll be to them. We'll have skin in this game. We have legislators too, we have contacted them. They are active. They understand mule deer and hunting. We haven't had to be coached as you have done with yours.

We aren't as passive as you would like the public to think. We are going to stop the decline of mule deer in Utah and we are going to grow more deer in Utah.

And we are doing it so your children and mine can hunt mule deer for ever.

DC

 

[soutahhunter]

Sounds like Tony is trying to do everything he can to get a tag every year. We are here to save the deer herd, even if we do not hunt for a year or two. Big difference between Tony and many of the sportsmen.

 

[fishon]

Deloss

I didn't take you for being ignorant but your post points to that.

I don't know if you listened last night or not but if you did 1st I thank you and 2nd you did not hear a thing that was said.

Where did you hear me promote my ideas last night other then I want more deer and more opportunity for everyone?

You didn't hear me say 1 word about smaller units or elk competition.

No you just are mad cause you wanted a forum that you can't get for YOUR ideas. Well Deloss I had a forum last night and it was not 1 bit about my ideas.

I had the DWR, MDF, SFW there and you were welcomed to come up and express what you thought just like all the others guys did that showed up. EVERYONE I talked to that attended thought it was well done and very informative.

YOu don't want solutions Deloss you want YOUR solutions. This is not what the forum was for. There was not time for a 30 minute power point presentation like you said you needed. That is not conducive for radio. You could of had all the mic time you wanted if you would of chose to attend like so many did but you CHOSE not to because it was not your way.

Deloss this has never been about me. I can hunt anywhere I want anytime I want (in reference to mister barney). I have killed 2 bucks on general season in Utah in 22 years. Yet I have spent tens of thousands of dollars on deer and the economy. All by my choice.

So I hope you are "all in" Deloss and you won't here me bashing your efforts like you chose to bash mine.

Unit management of Bucks will only help bucks it won't help the overall deer herd, those are biological facts that EVERY state has study's on.

So if you want to talk about helping the deer herd I am all ears and my resources are yours. But if all you want to do is try to sell people that micro managing Bucks will save the deer herd then you need to go get someone else to listen.

I offered to sit with you and listen to what you had to say and you declined because I would not put you on th panel. Deloss 15 other people wanted on the panel as well that were not put on and they are not crying about it.

Why you feel slighted by me and feel like you need to take personal shots at me is unknown to me.

Make a more deer Deloss and there is more for everyone, cut hunters out and there is only more for a few.

IS that what you and Barney want? More for just a few?


Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
UTAH HAS TOO MANY LAND CARP!

 

[soutahhunter]

I do not want more for just a few but I do want to do what is best for the future of hunting and not just to satisfy me for a few more years. I like you have hunted year after year and only have a few tags filled in those years, but I can tell you that this year was not a fun experience, which is what hunting should be and if it continues on the path of letting everyone have an opportunity to hunt as you want we will not have to worry many more years as there will not be any more deer and you can continue to put the blame on habitat, preditors, elk or whatever else you want, but if you dont have deer all the money grown habitat in the world won't help. Lets pitch in and save the deer herd not our selfish desire to hold a tag every year.

 

[fishon]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-01-10 AT 03:32PM (MST)[p]Of the 94,000 licensed deer hunters in 2010 how many shot, killed or wounded a Doe or a Fawn?

Since 1994 how many of the 94,000+ licensed buck deer hunters in Utah have shot, killed or wounded a Doe or Fawn with their permit?

NONE.

It is not a buck issue. Cutting out 10,000 buck hunters will kill about 2,500 less bucks. How many fawns will those bucks have? NONE.

Since 1994 we have had about 50,000 less buck hunters a year. That is 800,000 less buck tags issued in the last 16 years. That also should equate into about 200,000 less bucks killed.

WHERE are the bucks and where are all the deer that cutting those tags was suppose to grow?

The problem is not hunters my friends, it is something much bigger then that. Do you realize that is 28 million dollars in lost license revenue over the last 16 years? Do you realize if each one of those tag holders spent on average a conservative $100 on each one of those missed hunts that it would be another 80 million dollars in the economy if they are still hunting?

What could we of done with predator control and habitat work with an additional 108 million dollars?

Well I will tell you what we could of done, we could of had the healthiest deer population in the world with the most opportunity and biggest bucks.

That my friends is what we missed out on, and for what? We have no more deer today then we did 16 years ago, we killed 25,000 bucks in 1993 with 140,000 hunters and we killed 23,000 bucks in 2009 with 94,000 hunters.

You want to get right down to the issue and there is your issue. 80 million less dollars in the economy and 28 million less dollars in wildlife. OH and not to mention 50,000 less hunters to help fight against the antis and who now don't recruit their kids.

Guys we need more deer not more bucks. The bucks will come with more deer but more bucks won't produce a single fawn. That is a fact.


Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
UTAH HAS TOO MANY LAND CARP!

 

[Broomer]

I mention the status quo because in the meeting they said if no option was decided on it could default to status quo. I agree that something needs to be address but I think this idea by the WB was forced because of a few voices and the masses are saying wait why are we trying to change this now. The way I see it is that hunters are tired of not seeing mature bucks during the hunt and they want something done and so the WB because of pressure throws out this idea of 29 units and and DWR says if that is done we need to cut tags. So without any heads up to those hunters that may not be plugged in to what is going on they wake up and potentially can't hunt as a group/family and not all members get tags. It's total shock. I think if a change is needed which I believe is needed then it shouldn't be a knee jerk decision just to respond to the heat that they are taking. Besides this 29 unit thing is a social issue ONLY and has nothing to do with a biological issue. That idea is throwing crap on the wall and seeing what sticks.