Time for a Utah Super Raffle?

Camper_A1

Very Active Member
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Just finished checking out the Arizona Regs and read about their Super Raffle. They raffle off 10 tags and in 2009 raised $541,795 that goes directly for wildlife. I also read where in Utah SFW gets 111 conservation permits and 200 Convention tags and gave the UDWR a check for $391,000. All total Utah gives out 278 big game conservation permits to the different orginzations, 8 orgs total. Plus the 200 convention permits. I say bag the conservation permits raffle off 20 permits and raise $1 million dollars for wildlife and let 475 regulor joes draw the permits thru the general and limited entry draw and go hunt. What's your thoughts?
 
Wait, wait, wait..................... I thought we were against selling tags to rich guys? Tree, now you "think YES". A hell YES, no less. So................................... you do agree with me then, that using a small amount of the resource to enhance the resource is a YES, yes?

If Arizona held a Wildlife Expo type thing, and the City of Phoenix filled up their motels, restaurants, bars and and malls for three days a year, generating millions in sales tax revenue and good will for both the city and the State, would it be okay if they used a few more tags! Would that be a "YES"?

Let's see, how many non-conservation tags do we give to the LDS Church, the Miller Family, the Ensign ranch folks, the Winkle Family, the Heaton Family, the Jorgensen Family, the countless other private families here in Utah, how about some of the tags that are given to some of the folks here on the wildlife forums that own large tracks of land. How much do those tags sell for each year, care to look into that total, and then lets have a look at how much of the money those folks raise on those tags and see what they give back to the DWR in hard $$$$$. If fact, how much in cash do they give back? So, Tree are those tags a big hell YES too?

Just checking because I thought we said these rich guys are ripping the opportunity right out from under us average joes.........yes?

DC

DC
 
I think the thread is Raffle..........not sell....nothing in the Raffle thread about taxes or motels and I notice in that 'spin' not a dang statement about WILDLIFE benefiting.

Yeh---Raffle would be a great avenue for revenue vs the mess and embarrasment we currently find ourselves involved behind.

Robb
 
2Lumpy really needs to lay-off the snosh so early in the morning. What an incoherent rant! I thought any average Joe could apply for a raffle, just like the sportsmen tags.

Judging by Arizona, it appears there may be a better way. Their 10 tags brought in $540,000.

It takes Utah 350 to bring in $2 million. So if Utah took 1 tag per species, per unit they'd have 70 or so to raffle. Off Arizona's numbers that would generate almost $4 million. After paying someone to oversee the raffle, Utah could net $3.5 million and put 280 tags back in the draw. Anyone with $5 or $10 in their pocket could apply.

Lumpy can keep his 200 convention tags for a convention which is drawing less and less people, having less and less of an impact on Salt Lake's economy.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-23-10 AT 11:57AM (MST)[p]>Wait, wait, wait..................... I thought we
>were against selling tags to
>rich guys? Tree, now
>you "think YES". A
>hell YES, no less.
>So................................... you do agree with
>me then, that using a
>small amount of the resource
>to enhance the resource is
>a YES, yes?
>
>If Arizona held a Wildlife Expo
>type thing, and the City
>of Phoenix filled up their
>motels, restaurants, bars and and
>malls for three days a
>year, generating millions in sales
>tax revenue and good will
>for both the city and
>the State, would it be
>okay if they used a
>few more tags! Would
>that be a "YES"?
>
>Let's see, how many non-conservation tags
>do we give to the
>LDS Church, the Miller Family,
>the Ensign ranch folks, the
>Winkle Family, the Heaton Family,
> the Jorgensen Family, the
>countless other private families here
>in Utah, how about some
>of the tags that are
>given to some of the
>folks here on the wildlife
>forums that own large tracks
>of land. How much
>do those tags sell for
>each year, care to look
>into that total, and then
>lets have a look at
>how much of the money
>those folks raise on those
>tags and see what they
>give back to the DWR
>in hard $$$$$. If
>fact, how much in cash
>do they give back?
>So, Tree are those tags
>a big hell YES too?
>
>
>Just checking because I thought we
>said these rich guys are
>ripping the opportunity right out
>from under us average joes.........yes?
>
>
>DC
>
>DC

Wow! Huh? I'm not sure how to reply....... Umm...... Is the answer C)?

Everyone has a chance at these tags, not just rich folks and there's no middle man taking his cut.

Also, mdf and SFW keep ever dime of profit from the expo with 'no' earmarks.

It woul be like Arizona taking their raffle money and sending all of the proceeds to some random person, no questions asked. I see a need for some accountability, they are our animals that they are selling, right?

Maybe the 950,000 -1.3 mil they net from the expo could be given straight back to the division to increase or maintain personel to implement practices that will create or save deer? More policing hunters? Money for specialized predator control?

Also, the pointing out of a damaged system is not a new occurrence, many have been preaching this for many years, myself included.

Can you honestly say, with current debate aside, that the wildlife board, rac system et al is working as designed? Efficiently?
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-23-10 AT 10:26AM (MST)[p]Arizona Raffle Tag Prices,
Antelope - $20
Buffalo - $20
Desert Bighorn - $25
Elk - $25
Mule Deer - $20

Utah Raffle Tag Prices Sold at a Hunting Expo,
Antelope - $5
Buffalo - $5
Desert Bighorn - $5
Elk - $5
Mule Deer - $5

So your saying we should raise the price of the Utah Raffle Tickets by 400%/500% from $5 to $20/$25. Let's see, was that what you want us average joes to pay for a raffle ticket?

Still wondering how much those folks, that get all those tags, to sell to rich hunters give back to DWR? Anyone know? How many tags are given to "for-profit" companies and how many $$$$$ do they give back from the tags we give them to market as they see fit?

Or, is the really problem here that we dislike one group and we could care less about all the other groups that get tags to raise money for themselves and for the DWR.

Admit it to yourself, at least, if you can't admit it publicly, it's not really the tags or them $$$$$ that come back to the DWR for Wildlife, it's your dislike for one group or one person in the group, because of what they/he supports or how he conducts his business.

You really don't give a rats butt about all the give aways of tags and so called lost opportunity, as long as it's not being done by one group.

That's what all the is about and nothing more. You simply want what you want and of occasion someone with better ideas, and has worked harder than you, has built a network of influence and have prevented you from having everything you want out of wildlife resources and your pissed.

Here's the irony off all the BS your professing.

You claim you love the current system of management and until 9 months ago you had no problem with RAC/WB system. You want to stay with 5 regions, you want to keep dedicated hunter, you want your voice to be heard and responded to. Will apparently you don't remember or your to young to know who gave you the current system:

Five Regions- It was was SFW and Don Peay- they forced it on the DWR in 93.

Dedicated Hunter-It was was SFW and Don Peay- they forced it on the DWR in 93.

Public Input by the RAC and Wildlife Board System- It was was SFW and Don Peay- they forced it on the DWR in 93.

Prior to 1993 an Interagency Committee that include NOT A SINGLE SPORTSMEN OF ANY KIND, made every wildlife decision and the non-consumptive and farm bureau where kick our butt's every single day of the year. The DWR was willing and fought as aggressively are they are today, to continue to sell over the counter deer tags, all they could sell, and could have cared less how many hunters were in the field opening morning, it was "MAXIMUM RECREATIONAL OPPORTUNITY, TO THE MAX, further the DWR swore up and down 3 or 4 buck could bred a 100 does every year, they swore they had the biological data to prove it. They swore they could never police 5 different regions, etc. etc. etc.

So if you think the status quo is a panacea, well man up and THANK THE GUY YOU CAN'T STAND, NOT THE DWR, they were as much against and fought against 5 regions, dedicated hunters and the RAC/WB as aggressively in 1993 as they are fighting now.

Call a shovel a shovel boys, this is a bunched off pissed of people (DWR included) that, until this year, have for the last 17 years, had every damn thing they wanted, regardless of the impact it has had on the resource, and their going to lash out and fight against everyone and anyone that they belief say's it's time to re-build for the future.

It's only incoherent to one side my friend.

DC
 
Tree, why would I completely understand why you would ask if the answer is: C

You keep getting 5 when you add 2 + 2 so getting C is consist with your logic, as of late. I know you get it, just trying to make my point.

No hard feelings Tye. We'll all live through this, some how.

Hope you and our family have a warm and pleasant Christmas and good things happen to you.

DeLoss
 
2lumpy,+10 on all 3 posts!

Its more about the dislike for a certain class of people that motivates most of the criticizm towards auction/raffle/CWMU type tags and the organazations that distribute them.
 
Suppositions and general speculation.

DeLoss, I know you are passionate about this stuff, as well as many others, but you are all over the map and stating things that have zero validity.

Very few are dismissing this "group's" contributions, but to simply overlook the negatives is foolish. It's only about accountability and improvement, with or without them.
 
The post was just asking if there was a better way to raise money for wildlife with less tags lost. $25-$50 for a raffle is not bad versus $5000-$10,000 for the auction tags that cut out most of us.
 
Brutus, I'm not gonna disagree there are a few that are looking at this through have vs. Have not glasses, but that ain't me and I see looking at the world with that philosophy as self detrimental. I've had the opportunity to hunt all over the place, I've sat on on an SFW committee, I've bought several of their tags for folks and from other organizations as well.

Honestly, I don't have huge heartache about conservation tags, other than the number of them given out in Utah is out of whack, in my opinion.

Convention tags, that's a different critter and opinion altogether.

Deloss,

I'm not sure what you were eluding to with the landowner comments, but if you were looking to liken them to con. tags, I thinks it's off the mark. It's 'no' different than your neighbor's horse being pastured in your yard, compensation of some kind is fair. Landowners receive compensation for housing our animals on land that belongs to them in the form of tags. Also, the CWMU ##### gets old. There needs to be adequate incentive for them to allow the public access to their privately owned land, such as longer seasons etc.

If you feel like I have generalized your motives, I apologize, but generalizing mine is completely unfair and ridiculous. I don't know you from Adam and vice versa. Maybe sometime soon we could meet up and find out what really motivates the two of us. I get your authenticity, I hope you get mine.

Have a great Christmas and be safe in your travels.

Tye
 
DC I was a member of the last Statewide Elk Committee.
I can tell you WITHOUT A DOUBT that the way game in Utah is managed is to maximize Conservation Permits and Landowner Permit dollars generated.

The players are not even subtle about it anymore... They will come right out and tell you that "Landowners aren't making enough off of bulls and we need to continually raise age classes". Or "we need to keep the Conservation Permit Program in mind when we set age classes for our units".

This is my biggest fear in going this way with our fricken GENERAL SEASON DEER HUNT... I can guarantee you without a doubt that we will have clones of "Friends of the Paunsagunt" popping up all over the place... This will be just like every other system a certain "Group" has monopolized since 1993... You will see a GENERAL SEASON DEER HUNT ran just like Utah's LE Elk are.
Those 13,000 permits are gone... Never in a million years coming back.

In theory I have no problem with the Conservation Permit Plan. I have heartache with the fact that there are so many permits out there and we've hit the point of dimishing returns with them and the system is being worked and exploited to the point of SFW Payola in a Wildlife Board Meeting.

DC I filed a GRAMA request with the Division back in 08 for the Convention Permit program to see where the money went... I was told no one had ever done an audit on the program.. No data of any kind zip zero nada. I could probably get behind this program as well just as long as the money didn't go to pay a musician that plead guilty to shooting a TRAINED BEAR IN A CAGE and trying to enter it in the record books... Montgomery Gentry ring any bells anybody??? I have been told by someone that I trust that almost 1 mill came out of the Convention that first year and every penny went to over head. WILDLIFE???? WTF???

I'm done.... Theres plenty of work to do.

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!!






2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
The $391,000 from SFW is just the tags SFW auctioned, it wouldn't include all the tags MDF, RMEF, NWTF, etc. sold. They would all have to write their own checks to UDWR.

While I personally would rather see more conservation tags offered as raffle tags, raffle tags do not generate nearly the money that auction tags do. I helped MDF and SFW for many years with banquets and at one time we did raffle some of the conservation tags, and couldn't raise nearly the money raise from auctioning them.

I would bet that all the gov. tags in Utah raise more money than the statewide draw tags. I will say however, I would much rather see most of the conservation tags offered in raffles at banquets. I think there would be far fewer people sick of conservation tags if that were the case.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
I think at $5 a pop that some of you average Joes better figure out the Expo is your best chance to ever draw a tag.
 
Brian,
What is the split on the conservation permits for the group that sells them and the percentage that goes back to the DWR?
 
10%- Goes to the organization for administrative costs.

30%- To the DWR.

60%- To be used by the organization on "approved" projects.
 
I like the way arizona does everything with there wildlife. great youth hunts, no spike hunts, still kill 400" bulls, cranks out tags so their is more opertunity. Archery friendly state and they recognize they can give out more shorter range weapons and it doesn't hurt the quality. We have far more deer and elk then Arizona has so if we managed it like they do we could even be better.

As far as I know arizona hunting money doesnt go to a general arizona fund where they can take that money and fix roads or give teachers raises. Utahs general fund is a joke!

I think the tag grab by sfw is criminal. I personally don't have a problem with a few tags or have a problem is some rich guy can hunt cwmu or buy an auction tag but the tags SFW gets is getting out of control imho. I think if we are going to have the tags then limit them to 30 tags total and distribute the tags evenly to the already existing special interest groups. This way all the special interest groups have to work amongst them selves to get anything done. This way one group cant ram their agenda down our throats.

SFW is starting to sound like big government to me. Big government thinks they need more money every year to get anything done. I hate big government!


4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


The harder you work the luckier you get!!
 
W.W.
"I can guarantee you without a doubt that we will have clones of "Friends of the Paunsagunt" popping up all over the place..."

I'm a bit slow. What did you mean by this statement? I think I'm offended, but I'm not sure. Please explain if you can...
 
Conch each unit will have a committee that will provide input..
Just like the Elk Committee you will see the units managed for inches an dollars... KEEP IN MIND WE ARE TALKING GENERAL SEASON UNITS HERE..

Now if "Friends Of Whatever Unit" want to maintain a General Season opportunity for ALL OF UTAH'S HUNTERS there is no need to take offense. If "Friends Of Whatever Unit" start making demands like 0 elk on the Pauns, implementing age classifications along with buck to doe ratio's and continually demand these measuring sticks get higher and higher, being offended will be pretty minor.






2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
how about the guys selling utah tags for banquets out of state .and those turkey people selling elk tags ect. what a joke. when will it end..?
 

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