Why 88,000 Quit Hunting

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
7,957
Thank you gentlemen, for taking my question regarding why 88,000 hunters stopped hunting between 1983 and 1993 seriously and responding as you have.

The buckstopshere?s answer is actually the closest to correct, but only partically.

He said, ?The winter of 92-93 was the worst deer kill off in state history. People didn't see any deer in 1993 so they didn't purchase a tag. Whether they quit all together will never be known because in 1994 they went to the limit of 97k?.


Buckstopshere is partially correct in that the winter of 1992-93 was a tough one on Utah?s northern deer. Thousands died.

After dragging their feet for weeks the DWR even attempted to feed deer, which they really hate to do. However, here is the rest of the story, not so well known because of the half truths told by the DWR to the media which perpetuates their talking points and their overall all misconceptions.

If you take a look at the data below and look at the years 1988 thru 1992 and look at the number of antlerless deer the DWR were killing you will see that during the 5 years prior to the harsh winter of 1992, the DWR nearly double the number of does harvested. There is more to this than just the number of does killed, you need to know that most of those does were killed in South Central Utah. Why did they kill all these does in that specific area?

2679doekills.jpg


Here is the ugly truth (from my perspective), the sportsmen had forced the DWR, through the Wildlife Board, to increase the average buck/doe ratio from 4 to 15 and to do it through the antler restriction hunt management method. The DWR was furious, both the local biologists, and the State DWR Biologist were in a literal rage that sportsmen would challenge their insistence that 4 buck per hundred doe was a healthy ratio. (If you think they are pissed now, you should have shared a conversation with them in1986.) They came right and said the following: ?By God, there is more than one way to increase a buck doe ratio and we're so sick of you bastards we'll give you a higher buck doe ratio if you want one?. And that is exactly what they did. They killed does. My local biologist, a man that told be me on numerous occasions, ?DeLoss, relax, mule deer are like flys, you can't kill them off, they are the most forgiving wildlife species in the country, we can kill all we want and so can mother nature and they bounce back in larger numbers?. After our war with the DWR in 1984 over buck/doe ratios, he came to me and said, ?I'm so sick of you guys calling me about mule deer I'm going to kill every stinking one of them?. And he tried, until 1992, when Govenor Leavitt stopped him. Notice the number of does killed in 1993.

Now then back to the 88,000 question and the winter loss of 1992/93. What happened in the spring of 1993 was perfect storm, much like this year. The northern hunters were angry with the DWR for not feeding starving deer until it was too late and thousands starved to death. At the same time there was no significant, if any, winter loss south of Nephi, Utah in 1992. Compared to the winters of 1982/83 in southern Utah, we had no winter in 1992/93. However, south central and southern Utah hunters were also hostile as hell, because of what the DWR had done to our doe deer for the previous 5 years. The DWR had done to south central and southern deer, what mother nature and the DWR had done to the northern Utah deer.

The hunt in 1992 was so bad, BEFORE the 1992/93 winter that over 73,000 hunters said, ?no more hunting for me?. There were no caps, no regions, no restrictions. They just quit on their own. No one said, ?you can't buy a tag in 1993 because the cap of 97,000 was not put into effect until the hunt of 1994. Nobody told the 88,000 hunters, (34% of all hunters) they couldn't buy a take or take their family hunting. They could have. They could have hunted anywhere in the State they wanted to, there were not regions until 1994. THEY DID NOT WANT TO! They left the world of deer hunting because it was a undesirable experience.

For all the current surveys and the believes that people just want to hunt and be out their with their families, consider this. In 1993 over 30% of the hunting public (73,000) people said, NO THANKS, WE?RE DONE. NOT BECAUSE THEY HAD TO BUT BECAUSE THE CHOSE TO, OUT OF DISLIKE FOR THE EXPERIENCE. They could have hunted anyway they wanted too but their hunt had become so undesirable they gave it up.

What does that have to do with today?s sportsmen. It has this to do with it.

Sportsmen to not trust or respect the DWR, because of there historic behavior. Sportsmen want to hunt but they want to have a good experience and that is what many of them are not having currently, just like 1992. We keep adding youth to our hunting ranks but we can't hold them, why, because they give it a try and it's not desirable. Our youth are not staying with the life style because the experience they have when they go into the field is not a positive one. If they were having a positive experience while they were deer hunting they would be clammering for the opportunity. They are just like the 73,000 in 1993, they are staying home by choice, not by mandate.

You do not need to have a deer tag to have a good time with the family in the mountains, freezing your feet, lugging a rifle, bow or muzzleloader over hill and dale, just on chance that someday you'll see a deer and then later in life you might even see a buck to shoot. Just packing a gun, bow or muzzleloader through the trees and sage is not enough reason for many youth to stay with it. Those of us that have had better experiences understand the reason for the effort, youth do not. To them, if we're going to hunt, we want to have a reasonable chance at seeing and harvesting a deer. If not, we're not going. (I realize that some youth will go if their parents go, regardless, but they generally aren't going to keep doing it when they become independent and have their own choices to make.) How do I know, I'm sixty three years old, I've watch what happens to kids and grandkids when they don't have success at something, they loose interest and they loose if faster now days than they did before electric entertainment and the internet came on the scene. How many kids keep playing baseball if they never get to play or never learn to throw, catch, or hit. One year, maybe two, then gone. The same it true for hunting.

If we don't do something to help re-grow our deer herds across Utah, within another generation, it won't matter if we have a robust herd of deer or not, the 30 year olds will care less. Their answer to why don't you hunt will be this, ?there was nothing left by the time my Dad took me hunting so I just quit?.

I'll put up another question on a different post so we can keep exploring what we believe and what we should do with our hunting opportunities and our deer herds. Again, thank for giving these issues and questions your serious input. Everybody has a point to make and everyone should have a venue to explain there reasoning. One great thing about these on-line forums is we can flesh out our thinking and our experience and develop our logic where as the public hearings, due to time restraints never can provide us that opportunity. If there is anything I would want to fix in the RAC/WB system it would be to find some way to allow thoughtful discussion (individuals/groups) to have the time to explain in depth what the reasoning and logic behind their recommendations are. It is absolutely impossible to explain any kind of in depth recommendation to the committees or the Board in 2 to 4 minutes.

Merry Christmas to you ?Keepers Of The Flame. All of you, regardless of your position on how we go about helping mule deer, no one should be questioning your commitment to the lifestyle, I certainly do not.

Sorry for the incoherence, best I can do with my limited skills.

DC
 
The hunt in 1992 was so bad, BEFORE the 1992/93 winter


Good post, but I would take exception to that one statement. I remember the hunt of 92 very clearly, and it was the best year I can ever remember.

2a0fcsk.gif
 
This is obviously your take on it, based on your philosophy and in all fairness, you pointed that out from the get go.

Question Deloss; are these exact quotes from people?

>Merry Christmas to you ?Keepers Of
>The Flame. All of
>you, regardless of your position
>on how we go about
>helping mule deer, no one
>should be questioning your commitment
>to the lifestyle, I certainly
>do not.
>



To this I agree. Regardless of your philosophy on this deer business. It's good to see so many concerned enough to research, speak and act. I would hope that the few that have resorted to personally attacking each other, no matter which side of the fence you fall, can chill a bit and discuss these issues with a little more civility.

The only reason any of us have word one to say on the subject is because we are very concerned with mule deer flourishing.
 
I posted this already but ill post it again. I am one of the 88,000 that quit hunting and it had nothing to do with the state of the deer herd. I hunted the nebo unit in 90-92 and loved every bit of it. How many on this forum can say honestly that they were one of the 88,000 quiters?

Here was my response to the ??
2lumpy
Thanks for the gift. It went to my old house and was forwarded to my new house a day ago. Its defiantly a nice gesture.

to answer your question?? "Why did 88,000 Utah deer hunters stop hunting mule deer in between 1983 and 1993?"

I am one of those guys that stopped hunting in that exact time frame and wish I hadn't. So I am one of those guys that can sincerely answer your question.

When Utah went to choose your weapon I said screw it I wanted to hunt with all three So I put all my weapons away. Utah also made the Le units and I thought it was stupid and complicated when I had to mail in my applications before certain dates. I always missed the deadlines or I never had the money. I grew up in a very poor house with divorced parents so I didn't have the traditional Utah hunting family structure. So I was on my own to know when the deadlines were. I was seeing great bucks but thought everything was just too complicated. So I quit hunting. I however didn't quit hunting because I didn't see any deer.

Now fast forward 10 or so years I went on a hike in an archery only area. The first time out I saw monster bucks. I thought I wanted to start hunting again. Then someone told me I couldn't hunt that area with my guns. I was pissed but if that was the only way to hunt it I had to obey the rules, so thats what I did. I took my 15 year old bow out of the closet with several mismatched arrows and went hunting. I only had a few shots in three or four years of hunting. I missed everything! So I went to the archery store picked up a new bow. I found out they had these things called archery leagues and you can shoot indoors at 3d targets during the winter. cool! being able to hunt every year for 4 months is a huge perk in its self but to be able to do it on Henry quality bucks is eating cocaine laced frosting on a big piece of cake.

I now have introduced my non hunting wife to get her blue card and she is applying for the hunts. I have introduced my kids to the hunting life style and they live and breath hunting. I have introduced two of my brothers and one of my brothers wives, my sisters kids, my neighbor and his kids. They have all been converted to at least shoot a bow. some of them however hunt with a rifle but will be using a bow this year for general season. all of my family members above want to hunt and when most of them didn't draw a general tag their first or second year of applying they thought it was stupid and went to the bow. They can hunt big deer every year and they can shoot all year long. However none of them have shot anything or wounded anything but they have gone over board in purchasing all the crap to get it done. Meaning wheelers, camp trailer, big trucks, ect.

This is why with me coming out of an utter failure of a hunting family things have changed for the better. This is why I sound like an anti rifle guy. Archery is so over looked in this state as a way to still allow hunters to go out and hunt without affecting the buck numbers like the same amount of tags will affect the quality with a rifle.

"more bucks, better bucks with more tags, win win if you choose a lesser weapon"

I'm a perfect example of this and why I adamantly oppose the direction the state is headed in. "pro rifle state with very limited opportunity" all you have to do is look at the failure of a system the elk hunting is in to see this. majority of the tags go to rifle hunters and they shoot the crap out of the top end bulls. guess what the tags got cut and will get cut again and again mark my words. Its also a once in a life time hunt now and we are now forced to shoot spikes just like our deer herds. It sucks but at least with our deer herds if we get out and put in some time like you, I and muley73 do you can still shoot a big buck.

so to me if you want to see hunter recruitment or even keep the hunters we have now we cant keep making everything in this state once in a life time hunts. Hunting for trophy bucks, elk, moose, antelope, ect has never been better in Utah. All you have to do is look at the record books they keep getting smashed every year.

Have a merry Christmas lumpy I also hope you and your family have continued success in hunting.




4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


The harder you work the luckier you get!!
 
I have a question on this 88,000 quiting. Could the numbers be skewed to reflect the fact that prior to 1992 we could hunt all 3 seasons? ie I bought an archery tag and rifle tag. Was that counted as 2 hunters?
I believe in 1992 there were at least 2 signifcant events that took place. Number 1 the Wasatch front was closed to rifle hunting. A lot of people used to hunt after work and run up Parleys and Millcreek like the archery guys do now. Maybe some were affected by that.
Number 2 and swbuckmaster hit on this. I believe in 1992 was when we had to choose a weapon. That being the case did we really lose hunters or simply license sales???

George McQuiston
www.flyingJoutfitters.com
 
Wow, I def do not have any respect for our DWR now after reading this. Great article!
 
George McQuiston I would dare to guess that you just hit the nail on the head for sure!
 
2lumpy, great post, very informative for some one like me who was just starting out hunting in the early 90's.

I believe that the non residents were the biggest loss do to lack of quality and it is still showing today in general season non res applicants. The residents will continue to apply largely because the cost is not that signfigant compared to what non res have to pay and its close to home. But if your a non res and probably only go on 1 or 2 out of state hunts a year if not every other year there is alot better bang for your buck in surrounding states that take the same amount of wait as a general season tag in Utah. IMO if the quality does start to get better in the future the non res will start applying for Utah instead of surrounding states and inturn have more liscence fees and app fees.

Just my opinion but I would love to hear from non residents on this.
 

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