How old are trophy bucks?

[DonVathome]

What age do mule deer bucks peak at? I know for whitetails it is 4-1/2 to 5-1/2, is it the same for mule deer? I know a 8-1/2 year old buck will be nice, but on the decline, if he even lives that long.

Bottom line is what age (earliest) can you expect a deer to be at near the top of his potential?

 

[never_satisfied]

I have the muly crazy vidio set.In one of the videos they showed some deers procession each year.one peaked out at 9 1/2 years old.While another deer they show peaked out at 5 1/2 years old
I don't think years determines any bucks potential.It has more to do with habitat,weather and genes.

 

[sageadvice]

My $.02, i'd say that a 3 1/2 year old buck can/could be a darn good one and those 5 1/2 - 6 1/2, about prime.

As far a neat looking and highly desired bucks, older the better.

Joey

 

[never_catch]

In Utah a trophy buck is any male deer with at least two points on each antler and each point is at least 1" long

~Z~

 

[utahbigbull]

You have pretty high standards there Z. Mabey back in the "good ol days".

 

[jims]

It takes muledeer and elk more years than pronghorn to get to B&C proportions. I'd go out on a limb and say in the ball park of 6-7 years for deer and 6 to 8 years mimimum for elk to grow to B&C proportions in most Western states. Obviously there are exceptions.

UT is a prime example of LE units managed for age class objectives for elk. Every hunter that harvests a UT LE elk is required to submit teeth. The UT elk age class in most of the prime LE units have slowly but surely been lowered from 7-8 year old to 4-5. The number of B&C bulls has taken a nose-dive the past couple years. The number of 400+ bulls is also a fraction of what it was 3 or 4 years ago.

There is also an age survey that was recently done for pronghorn to determine trophy quality vs age. The average age for B&C antelope was only 3+ years.

 

[ELKOHOLIC]

I seen some data from Wyoming where they determined the age of the deer harvested and the width of the antlers. Very few deer hit the 30 mark, but if I recall 5 1/2 years was the age of most 30 inchers taken. There were even some 30" buck taken at 3 1/2 years old.

 

[B_BOP_A_LU_LU]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-11 AT 05:31PM (MST)[p]Like ~Z~ said!

He breaks the Milk off the Lipp in TARDville you've got yourself a Nice Trophy!

You ever notice?

Opportunists never beach & whine about Utah's General Deer management!

EDIT:Oh but by GAWD the OPPORTUNITY!

I don't care if they're big or small!
If they throw lead I like em all!

 

[DonVathome]

I would agree with the 5-1/2 (with many 4-1/2 year old bucks being really nice). I also checked in Henry mnts LE tag inn Utah has average ages just under 5 years old.

I am sure some deer may peak later but I have seen lots of whitetails antlers from birth to death (captive deer) and I have seen very few (maybe none) that did not go downhill after 5-1/2.

 

[BCBOY]

Most muley bucks are just starting to show their potential at 5. 6-8 is where you see what they really are able to acheive.

 

[cabinfever]

A 4 1/2 year old deer with good genetics can grow a 200+ rack, but give the same buck a chance to reach 6-7 years, and than throw in a wet year that promotes good feed and your looking at a slammer buck.

Genetics + Age + Good Feed....in that order, grows the kind of bucks we all dream abouy killing.

While chatting with another hunnter, He commented, that he had seen a number of 24 inch 4 points while hunting and scouting. He said, "man, there are going to be a lot of big bucks next year." The truth is, very few of those 24 inch 4 points have the genetics to grow a larger rack. Age and feed are worthless without genetics. Lets face it, 200 inch genetics are a very rare trait.

good post!

 

[TOPGUN]

cabinfever---Very good point! I came to that same conclusion a few years ago in the Wyoming unit I hunt every year. I see a lot of nice bucks like the guy you mentioned, but hardly ever see a real heartstopper, making me think the genetics just aren't there because the feed is and they aren't being shot by hunters either!

 

[HiMtnHntr]

ELKOHOLIC, where did you find the Wyoming tooth data?

 

[greatwestern]

^absolutely, just like with any animal

some bucks will never be truly big bucks

in my observation, a muley buck will enter its respective prime at 5-6 years old, and that period can last 4-5 years before he starts to go downhill (usually quite rapidly)....of course every individual is different

i have been watching a mature buck for several years in an area that produces 200" typicals and has kicked out trash bucks as high as 260, but this dude has never been anything but a big ol forked horn with eyeguards

this year he had about a 4" fork on his left g2, but no matter what you feed that dude, or how easy a life you give him, he's just never gonna blossom into some kind of super buck

 

[DonVathome]

Cabin fever I agree except age is first. Best genetics in the world and best feed and a 2-1/2 year old deer will not hit B&C

However most mature bucks at their peak are very nice deer.

Here in Ohio I have never seen a 4-1/2 year old deer I would not shoot (bow) granted I never know for sure the age but bottom line is, unless you have a great and tag really want to hold out (not the case for me 99% of the time) most mature bucks will suffice.

 

[greatwestern]

nah man, genetics are primary... you obviously have to let the thing grow up!

but age and quality resources will never outweigh the dominant influence of poor genetics in any such stricken individual

 

[greatwestern]

also, look at some of the farm bred whiteys and elk to see whats possible at 2.5 years with good genetics and all the 'fixins'

 

[Codylee1985]

Hey Cabinboy, ever consider the idea that the reason we don't see a grip of bucks over 24" is because most people will shoot a buck that big when they see one...just food for thought!

 

[nickman]

There are way too many variables in this question for a blanket answer.

I am sure genetics are NOT the most important aspect of the question. Nature can destroy 25 years of flawless genetics with 3 years of drought.

Basically, what most people are after here is antler growth, not necessarily the overall condition of the animal.

Seperate identical twins and raise one in Montana and the other in Arizona. I doubt their annual appearance will be the same.

Food nutritional value, winter/spring conditions, rut injuries, predator encounters, stress......from any and all these things, are going to have an effect.

Deer living in timbered, dense brush habitat, tend to have less antler width than open country animals.



"whackin' a surly bartender ain't much of a crime"

 

[greatwestern]

interesting Nickman...

drought doesn't 'destroy flawless genetics', it just generally retards antler growth

similar deal goes for all of your 'variables'...they serve to influence (for better or otherwise) how an animals inherent genetic coding is manifested; in the context of the interest here, what kind of antlers a mule deer buck will produce

i have also noticed that animals with poor 'overall condition', generally don't grow very good horns

and some of the widest bucks i have ever seen live in some of the nastiest tangles of cover in the area....some of the others have been in the desert, a place that supposedly just doesn't have the right 'variables' to produce big antlers

 

[BCBOY]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-11 AT 10:05AM (MST)[p]The question was how old are trophy bucks was it not? It is my belief that the average buck living in fair to good habitat given age will max out in the 170 class. To a lot of guys, that is a trophy buck. So for the average buck to get there, you are looking at 5 years. Of course, there is the above average bucks that may be living in the above average habitat conditions. You can start seeing these buck's potential even in the first year as they can be basket racked 4's and might even throw some NT points such as small droppers. That buck will be a monster at age 4 and a giant at age 6 given the variables of feed, water and cover are still in good to above average conditions. And of course, you can see the results of poor habitat and/or poor genetics. A lot of bucks just don't got it. They will never amount to anything over 150 regardless of age and habitat. And if a buck has great genetics but happens to be in poor condition due to poor habitat, the same can be true.

 

[greatwestern]

^exactly

 

[Packout]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-11 AT 10:37AM (MST)[p]Breaking down the average age of deer harvested on the Henry Mtns can give interesting insight.

The average age of bucks shot on the Henry Mtns is below 5. But when you look at the archery bucks the age jumps to over 5 years old. Archers can not be as selective, as such they can't target the largest bucks (scoring wise). The average age of muzzle loader bucks is over 5 also. Again the same applies, but of course ml hunters can be slightly more selective.

The interesting factor is the average age of rifle kills, which is just over 4. The most selective group kills probably the best genetic bucks (score) and they are the youngest. Of course that doesn't mean the bucks are maxed in their growth, but it shows that 3 and 4 year old bucks with the right genetics and groceries meet most people's definition of "Trophy". That 220s buck shot with Mossback by DB was aged at 4. I have seen other 200" bucks from there which aged at 4.

BC makes a great post on the factors of growing trophy bucks. The Book Cliffs in Utah is a great example of a herd with marginal genetics and smaller antlers on average. Due to genetics or competition, but there are many bucks on the Books which will never be larger than 140" scoring deer.

 

[BCBOY]

I think what you have going on on the Henries is the bucks are being whacked as soon as they start getting good. Just think what that area could produce if they actually let them grow up to be 6, 7 or 8 years old instead of whackin them at 4.

 

[nickman]

Well, not that I really give a chit and I think this is a loaded question anyway, I will stand with my original comments.

If you believe that a buck that suffers thru 3 consecutive years of drought and all that it encompasses, will be passing on 100% of his original genetics program, ever again, you have missed some basic biology facts somewhere.

The dna string might still be there, but the characteristics will be flawed.

"whackin' a surly bartender ain't much of a crime"

 

[greatwestern]

once again, very interesting Nickman....

but i don't really give a 'chit' either, so i'll just leave it at that

cheers

 

[ELKOHOLIC]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-11 AT 03:35PM (MST)[p]Himtn, I think it was actually in a book that David Long wrote, "Public Land Muleys".
Oh, man. I'm going to have to get that sized down a little.

 

[cabinfever]

I should have disclosed that the area this guy was seeing an abundance of 24 inch 4 points was in a limited entry unit with ok genetics. Since it takes several points to draw these units, most guys don't plug the first 24 inch 4 point they see, yet these same buck aren't really getting bigger from year to year. If you don't think genetics are the largest factor in growing big racks, look at genetics in humans. How many 7 ft human beings do you see walking around?Dang few! Thats because growing to seven foot or taller is a rare genetic trait. It's no different with 200+ inch muleys.It's a rare genetic trait and that explains why theres not 200 inch deer behind every tree.


Go Jimmer!!!!!!

 

[greatwestern]

i'll tell ya though 'Fever, subject some of them 7 footers to 3 years of drought and they'll start having midget babies with raggy, crooked horns...but put ol Danny DeVito on the good feed and give him a couple years, and just watch that little bugger transform into a real B&C contender!

 

[DonVathome]

The best way to answer my original question is someone who has seen shed antlers from every year from the same buck - which means farm raised. I have seen it for many whitetails.

True genetics helps, nutrition etc. To get a booner you need all 3 for sure. However for a "nice buck" like a P&Y buck, age is the "easiest" way to produce a P&Y buck. I would bet that 90% of whitetail bucks 4.5 years old make P&Y assuming no borken antlers and decent nutrition (not a drought etc) and at 5.5 years old I bet 95%.

I am not ruling out genetics and nutrition but I am mearly saying to produce a P&Y quality buck simply letting them reach 4.5 and 5.5 will suffice (this is for whitetails).

I have seen the pen raised deer hit big antlers early on.

If I had to pick hunting any area with lots of feed, excellent genetics and TONS of hunters blasting everything vs an area with average feed, average genetics but deer are allowed to live until at LEAST 3.5 years old I would pick this place very time and twice on sundays. Way more nice bucks, by far. Thus age is most important, and easiest to control, to get a decent mature buck.

To get a booner you need all 3 and some luck, booner deer are truely in a class by themselves.

 

[Squirrel]

Sorting through some of the above made me leary of even commenting on this but I can tell you with certainty that the deer around here hit a very nice plateau (generally 170-200) and hold it for quite some time. Even the downhill slide is a VERY nice buck. I have numerous repetitive sets of sheds from the same deer and some pics of big mature bucks that are the same one year-to-year. The big variable I can't close the book on is at what age they are hitting the 170'ish plateau- I have some guesses but they are just that- guesses.

One prime example of a very unique buck-spindly horns 5x5 with small extras that jumped around from yr-yr. A very wide guy who I judged on the hoof to be 36-38 when I first found him-obviously a mature deer. I picked up 1/2 that year and figured him at 178'ish. Next year watched him and guessed him at 180 and found both that year-181. Watched him the next year and he was virtually identical to the previous, but he moved and I found 0 sheds. The next winter he was nowhere to be found. While buying some materials I looked up from the register and there he was being held up by a local rancher (in a picture on the wall). No wonder he didn't show up- he was already on the wall, I asked the family and they said he was 36" x 180" but I've never stopped by to see him.

I have played out this same story with dozens of bucks over the years with small variations in the details, sometimes they disappear for a couple of years to re-appear later, sometimes they get whacked a little sooner sometimes I pick up their dead-head on the winter range. (not very often, I think most go away in the back of a pickup)


This is an ongoing saga whose final chapter is unwritten but I fear the final chapter has been started, I call him "catch 22". A friend has the left from the yr before and he grew 5" on that one horn between 08-09 to 09-10

2009-2010

2010-2011

 

[DonVathome]

Great pics!

I think, on average, mule deer live longer then whitetails, whitetails go downhill quickly. Generally 3.5 years might be a good buck, 4.5 - 5.5 is and then downhill pretty quick.

Looking online it did appear mule deer live a little longer, which makes sense that they stay steady for longer then a whitetail. I keep mentioning whitetails because I have seen many sets of sheds throughout a whitetail bucks life but not mule deer.

 

[Squirrel]

When our deer go downhill it's generally down I-70 into Denver... But some do croak of old age. After many 1000's of miles hiking and finding sheds/skulls I think most die in the latter part of winter after shedding their antlers, which is why so few deadheads are found with antlers intact. Most age studies are done on the cheap with tooth wear comparisons which if you read the fine print is a whole lot of guessing after 4-6 yrs of age. (But they'll tell you how good they are!)

A buddy of mine who is also a fanatic has a 4-5 yrs love affair with a buck he calls "stickers", I believe this winter he did not show up, Solid mid 170s frame with small trash that moves with each year. When he got the name he was the same which is the tricky part of the "plateau"... when does it start??? The only way to know for sure is to find him dead send the teeth in for Matson's aging then compute backwards.

My best deadhead went 206 + gross the year he died, the year before he grossed 209+ I only have half of the previous year but he was slightly smaller than the 209 year. I saw him 3 years before he died and on the skyline at 100 yards one of my more memorable outdoor moments with the setting sun over his rack.
This is "Elvis" the year he died.

These are his sheds the previous year.

This is a great buck that appeared last year.

This is the same deer this year obviously still on the upswing, but probably not any longer as he has a busted l-f leg

 

[cabinfever]

greatwestern

Danny Devito is on an excellent feeding program, which explains why he's short and FAT. You can give Danny all the feed you want and he'll never grow a vertical inch. Thats because his genetics don't code for it. How do you explain these 7ft africans who are severly malnurished? Your genetic DNA doesn't magicly change because your malnurished.The color of someones eyes aint going to change because they are malnurished.

Is age and good feed essential to growing trophy racks? Absolutely! Never said it wasn't! However, without good genetics, all the feed and age in the world will not produce you a trophy rack. Trust me, I'm all about letting these bucks gets some age on them. It's all part of the equation.

I saw 2 bucks while hunting this year that were 24-27 inch 2 points with heavy tall racks. These bucks were fat, healthy, mature bucks that had taken advantage of a good feed year. Unfortunately, these bucks genetics will never allow them to grow into anything more than a big heavy two point. In contrast, there is a reason that places like the AZ Strip and Henry Mountains consistently crank out BIG deer. Genetics, Genetics, Genetics!!!!!!!!!!

 

[greatwestern]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-11 AT 07:11PM (MST)[p]whoa there, hold on Fever...if you read back through the topic, you will realize that you and i are in agreement on the Primary influence of genetics, and see that my Devito post was entirely facetious

as to original post...again, i believe a muley buck enters his top end (whatEVER that happens to be for each individual) at 5-6; and that his 'prime' period can last up to 4-5 years with good living conditions and no major injuries; and that such a buck COULD produce his best set of antlers nearly any year in that time

this is just MY observation over the last 13-14 years in a few lightly/unhunted populations, and of some resident bucks i've known over my lifetime...and like i said, some of those age class dudes have still never been anything but essentially big ol forked horns or 3x at their very best (though certainly heavy, and in some case very wide); while a few have been absolute monsters, both typicals and junk yard bucks...once again, genetics eh!

as a somewhat parallel curiosity...some of you might remember the Oregon elk bull that lived on some sort of unhunted management area a while back; the bios had picked up his sheds over his lifetime, and collected him when he finally keeled over at age 18...any guesses as to which year of his life that bull grew his best horns?

 

[cabinfever]

greatwestern

my bad....should have read your previous posts. I kind of wondered if you were being facetious....

I'll bite on your last question. So when did this 18 year old bull grow his best rack? A guy that works for me killed a 16 year old bull in NV. Although heavy, the bull was only a 4x5 with long main beams.

I read an article in MC a while ago that documented a big buck that scored (?) in the 240's. On a really bad drought year the buck shrunk from 240+ inches to an amazing 170 inches and than back to a 240+ inch buck on the year he was killed. The article was well documented with pics of the buck as well as sheds.Another guy I know killed a 190 typical and on the same day he killed the buck they found his sheds from the previous year that scored a little over 200.It's amazing what a buck can do with an abundance of groceries and the right genetics.....and of course age. I believe the 290 inch samson buck killed on the strip was aged at around 4.

 

[DonVathome]

My guess is the bull elk was best when he was 9-1/2? Guessing.

I am also starting to notice that maybe mule deer are more inlfuenced by nutrition then whitetails, or possibly it would be more accurate to say that a mule deers diet will vary from year to year a lot more then a whitetails. I have never noticed a big change in whitetails from year to year (back and forth) I have seen great growth from 1 year to the next but not a up, down, up on score.

I suspect deer here in Ohio get much more consistent nutrition, those I do not see flucuations, thus I underestimate how big on an influence nutrition really has.

I have only seen one mature whitetail buck that was not nice (ie P&Y) and he was a true 6 points (3x3 western count COUTNING the brow tines) he was mature, heavy and wide but only 6 points. He might have maed P&Y (tough for a 6 pnt) but not likely. This is has caused me to downgrade the importance of genetics in producing a nice whitetail (not a booner, just what many would call a nice buck) since 99% of mature bucks here are nice and would make P&Y.

Would you guys with more experiance say that when the mulies you have observed over time hit their max size that they would make P&Y or not? I am curious because again it was my thought that most mature bucks are nice and would make P&Y. Good info - thanks to all posting.

Also what age (if you knwo) did the bucks peak out, and when did they get nice (but not peak). In other words how young did they hit 90% of their potential?

I am asking because of a hunt I might apply for that changed seasons dramatically in 2007, greatly restricting harvest and therefor letting more mature bucks make it. I think this was long enough ago that there will some good bucks running around. I figure during the last more liberal hunt guys were passing on 1-1/2 year old bucks, which will be 5-1/2 years old now - which I think is godo enough to make them good bucks.

 

[cabinfever]

DonVathome

If a mulie has great genetics he could crank out a trophy rack as early as 3.5 years with a good moisture year, but 4.5 is more likely. I think mulies will grow their best head gear between 4.5 and 8.5 given the abundance of green food.I believe My dad killed a 190 buck back in the 60's that was aged at 11 years old. The buck had very few teeth and may not have made it through another winter. Would have loved to have seen this buck at 7.5 as I think he had regressed significantly.The buck had some great mass & trash, yet lacked in tine length!

 

[greatwestern]

well apparently, the OR bull grew his biggest horns at 15, second was the year he was 12...if i remember correctly, these were the only two sets that went over 350; rest of mature years were 330-40s...shoot, i thought i had some notes or a clipping about that bull somewhere, but i can't find

i agree that a muley buck under ideal circumstances will grow his best horns between 6-9, plus or minus a year or so

and Don, good genetics + feed and a buck could be well into pope and young at 3....and i think it would take a pretty miserable combination of factors to keep a muley buck's horns in his 'prime' years under p&y minimums

 

[BCBOY]

Here is a buck that I was lucky enough to watch for mulitple years and find some sheds off of and then harvest. The first year's age is a guess, but a well educated guess.

2001/2002. Age Estimated at 3 1/2 years. Picked up one shed off of him from this year.

2002/2003. A very mild winter with almost no snow. Most bucks wintered high so I didn't see him this year.

2003/2004. Age Estimated at 5 1/2 years. Saw the buck in low light conditions and got some ruff and dirty video of him. No pics that are worth posting. The buck blossomed and was definately a 200 inch+ buck. Picked up his matched set from this year but they were excessively chewed.

2004/2005. Age Estimated at 6 1/2 years. His best year of antler growth. Picked up his matched set. 225 gross NT.

2005/2006. Age Estimated at 7 1/2 years. He dropped 20 inches in score. Picked up his matched set from this year. 205 gross NT.

Dec 10, 2006. Age Estimated at 8 1/2 years. Not much different from the year before. 202 gross NT. Was finally able to put this buck on the ground that day.

 

[BCBOY]

Here's another buck I was able to watch for a few years before harvesting.

2004/2005. Age Estimated at 4 1/2 years.

2005/2006. Age Estimated at 5 1/2 years.

2006/2007. Never saw the buck.

Nov 2007. Age estimated at 7 1/2 years.

 

[BCBOY]

Here's another buck I had the fortune to watch for several years. Only found one set of sheds off of him and never was able to harvest him.
Summer 2000. Age Estimated at 3 years.

Summer 2001. Never saw the buck.

Summer 2002. Age Estimated at 5 years.

Summer 2003. Age Estimated at 6 years.

Summer 2004. Age Estimated at 7 years. The buck cleaned up and lost most of his NT points. I was able to picked up his matched set from this year. I believe he was cougar killed shortly after shedding. 200 inch gross typical.

 

[Squirrel]

Excellent chronological work there bcboy, since the stories end (some) with a dead buck in hand you could tooth age and figure backwards for his "point of beginning". That would firm up his first year "starting to look impressive" age.

Interesting side note to my above post about "stickers" he just showed up for the year and still has both sides-makes 5 years my buddy has watched him on more or less a level plateau of score.

Great bucks by the way...

 

[greatwestern]

Awesome post BC...super bucks! perfect illustrations for the question asked

great photos!

 

[TOPGUN]

Great thread guys and definitely a nice bunch of posts by bcboy!!! Keep em coming!!!

 

[DonVathome]

Wow those are some NICE bucks! Very good info - thanks! Mule deer peak older then I expected, the 18 yaer old elk suprised me he peaked that old. I would not have expected this. From what I gather a buck will be nice at 4.5 years old, with 5.5 yaers old being even better. He may get bigger, but normally not by a whole lot - likely more influenced by feed any given year.

This is exactly what I was looking for, thanks again guys, neat info/pics.

 

[BCBOY]

Here's an example of an old regressed buck. I shot this buck in Nov 2010. The only other time I ever saw this buck was the winter of 2004/2005. I picked up a shed off of him that year. He was a solid 200 inch buck in 04/05. His double mainbeam side scores 104 inches. Comparing the shed with the dead buck, my friends and I are convinced it is definately the same buck. He had a good roman nose in 04/05 and looked like at least a 5 1/2 year old buck then. So that would put him at 11 1/2 when I killed him.