Colorado Deer Point Dilemma

B

BUCKSPY

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I've been watching some of the advice and requests about where to burn a boatload of points on Colorado mule deer this year. I thought I would throw my .02$ in the mix and take it for what its worth but it is worth considering. No alterior motive here, just boredom on a snowy morning waiting to take my daughter snowmobiling when she gets ready.

1)The winter of 07/08's effects will continue to be felt for years in some areas.

2) The strongest youngest bucks during that winter were the primary survivors in the buck numbers and are now turning 5 to 7 years old.

3) A great majority of yearlings died in areas experiencing serious winter conditions and the birthrate and fawn recruitement from does that were pregnant during that winter is bound to be dismal. That is potentially a loss of two years age class from the herd!!! Those deer would be 3-4 this year and the lack of middle age bucks is evident in areas I have observed deer in.

4) Pre 2007/2008 winter the B&C records were re-written with entries from CO with Gunnison and Eagle counties leading the pack. Since that winter here is some interesting and telling information on what happened there.

B&C entries 2000-2007 Eagle and Gunnison counties 42 with 36 typical and 6 non-typical. No seperation for awards and all-time just total entries.

B&C entries 2008-2010 Eagle ande Gunnison counties. Just 2 !!!!!!!!!! WOW!

While this isn't a scientific evaluation of the overall herd health, this anecdotal shouts information in your face.

5) Mesa County had 5 non-typical entries during the 2000-2007 period and none since. B&C non-typs are freaks and it usually takes an older buck to make B&C as a non-typ than a typ as non-typs tend to add a little more extras with time. Mesa county didn't experience as harsh of a winter as the Gunnison units, Eagle county and the Northwest units but what it did experience is a steady ratcheting up of buck tag number in the last decade and quite simply has been over-hunted. Tags on the Grand Mesa are way too liberal and the bucks have been hammered out there. 61 produced some whoppers but the tag numbers were increased there too and the area recieved alot of pressure from trophy concious hunters.

6) Looking at the B&C records since the 2007-2008 winter, one can quickly see that entries are scattered from all over the state with no smoking-gun hotpsot. This means that a B&C buck could come from anywhere and can be just as likely come from a 1 point draw area as a 10 point draw area.

Burning your points in Colorado is a total crapshoot gamble right now. There will be big bucks killed and a handfull of true giants but I wouldn't want to put an X on the map for anybody. Using your points is at your own risk no matter what anyone or any infomation source tells you. Be prepared to be dissapointed as for every guy smiling with a whopper in a magazine, there will be hundreds at home complaining about the lack of quality and quantity.

On the bright side, the 4th season opener has very attractive dates for catching a big buck rutting does and these whoppers come out of the woodwork after the first few seasons. I would be more concerned with getting a tag with these dates then one that has been hyped for other reasons. Good historical gene pool with lower winter effects and a 4th season would be the 3 factors to look to combine. This shouldn't take too much research to figure out but it is still an educated gamble.

Buyer beware...........
 
Major effect here from Winter of 07-08 too!

Difference is it was already hurtin before that Winter!

I seen several Deer that Winter just lay down,give up & Die!

It hit CO even harder than here!



I don't care if they're big or small!
If they throw lead I like em all!
:p
 
great post thanks for the numbers. There's more to it than the bad winter you mentioned. I know there are way to many predators here in western Colorado. There are way to many coyotes I don't care what anybody says they have a big impact on the herd they don't just kill the weak and fawns either not to mention the lions and the bears and all the other fawn eating preadators. I shed hunt every spring seems like I see less deer every spring. Last year I found 75 sheds this spring I have hunted more and harder and have only found 40 and over half of those are hard whites. Not sure what the answer is. I do my part by coyote hunting all summer and try to get a bear tag every year. One other thing that might be hurting the deer some is the amount of elk. Where I live I am seeing more elk than ever probably has some effect of deer wintering grounds. What is your thoughts on this. Thanks, coyote
 
I agree 100%

The biggest thing I see that makes me cringe is alot of people feel that just because they have alot of points or because they are hunting a certain unit, they are going to kill a monster buck.
I feel it is important to be positive, and hunting better units help. but no matter how good of a hunter you think you are, you still have to get lucky! Especially on a big old monster buck that has been through it before.
Go into the hunt with the hope to get lucky. If you expect a sure thing, it could be very disapointing.
 
Here's another point to ponder that isn't great news for year if you have a whole pile of points. There is no longer a reasonable or direct correlation between points required to draw a hunt and the quality you can expect. The information age has skewed this perspective by putting value on landowner vouchers and how many points it takes to draw a license in the same unit. The more points it takes to draw a tag, in theory the more the voucher is worth. These two numbers feed off each other because there is more applicants than tags and every year more people have been applying for Colorado limited deer tags. The points required to draw continue to creep up and the voucher prices increase accordingly. Problem is that someone forgot to tell the DOW and they have increased the tags in the last decade. More tags equal more bucks killed, less carryover from year to year, meanwhile people continue to stack up points and now it takes quite a few points to draw tags that 5 years ago took one or less. Its a conundrum to be sure and in a couple years when these carryover survivor 5-7 year old bucks from the bad winter are dead and we are missing two years of age classes of bucks from yealings that died and poor fawn recruitment......Well.... you are going to be even more perplexed on where to burn your points. I don't have any good answers but I know that deer tags need to be cut back even more than they were 3 years ago. A visit to ALMOST every taxidermist in the state will confirm this. I am pretty pessimistic at this point so if somebody else is spreading more sunshine and you are comfortable with the advice, more power to you and good luck.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-27-11 AT 07:45PM (MST)[p]Good info Buckspy. Here are some of my random thoughts also.

Everyone needs to realize that the situation is no different in Wyoming, Utah, and Idaho....all historical great muley states. Different reasons maybe....but same situation. In fact, Colorado may very well be the best state going right now for a big buck. Nevada now has half the deer it it did in the 1980's. I have a buttload of points and am trying to make the best of them. There isn't a hunt in WY that's even worth the drive to me. I'm a muley buff but am actually reconsidering whether its worth $40/year to continue building points there.

One thing unique in Colo is that there are PLENTY of landowner tags so that if you burn your points, you can still hunt there next year. I put very little value on my 6 Colo deer points, cuz I can hunt there every year if I want.

If you want to go huntin' for a big muley........then pick your poison right now. You ain't gonna kill one unless you try. Also....it only takes one!

Don't always catastrophize based on how things look on the surface. Let me give you an example of why you shouldn't. Colorado unit 2 has something like 10% of the deer it did 25 years ago. No, I'm not kidding. Drought has pounded it, poor fawn recruitment, winterkills, coyotes, etc. I've lived and hunted all over the west and I've never seen a deer population crash like in unit 2. It seems to be a total disaster with CDOW limiting third season buck tags to something like 10 or 12 plus a couple LO tags. It used to be an OTC unit where you could see hundreds of deer every day! World record decline, right?

Sound like a loser hunt to you?? Here's the rest of the story. Have you seen the number of 170-190+ bucks that Raftopoulos has guided to in the last 2 years there? No kidding. Find his website and look for yourself. I'm aware of other bucks as well. Any hunt that produces several 170-190" bucks out of a dozen licenses I want in on!
 
Every person who hunts deer in CO should lose their points. I don't care if the hunt is their first choice, 4th choice, landowner voucher, leftover tag, or doe tag. You hunt, you lose your points.

That would do a whole lot to reduce preference point inflation and increase quality, IMO.
 
We have two major problems across the western united states. trophy quality and deer numbers. The two problems are surely related but have different solutions.
The fixing of deer numbers is easy at least on paper.
-Fix habitat, starting with winter and transitional ranges.
-Reduce road kill. I drive 40,000 miles a year for work across rural CO, WY, and Utah and its insane to see the amount of deer, elk, and moose killed on our highways. They recently did a stimulus fund highway project on the road from Meeker to Rifle. People probably kill 200-400 deer a year on this 4 lane highway and when they were finished repaving and changing a bunch of it to 4 lanes they put up 36" fence with no crossings. I drive on this road 20 times a year and didn't even notice the fact that it needed to be repaved. Its hard not to notice the 3-5 deer smeared across it every time I make the drive,especially in the spring and fall.
-Reduce predators, especially where winter range, vehicle mortality, and habitat aren't a dire concern.
-Reduce elk especially in areas with marginal habitat. If you have marginal habitat you can't have large numbers of deer, and elk.
-Provide serious protection for animals on critical winter ranges.

Fixing trophy quality is a much harder problem. Too many people would have to give up to many things. The problem is most surely not a easy fix with 1 solution.
Wyoming hunters would have to give up 60 day deer seasons and being opportunited to death by our G&F
CO and NV hunters would have to give up hunting trophy mule deer in Nov when their in the full blown rut. Maybe they wouldn't have to completly get rid of these hunts but at least make these rut hunts archery, and Muzzleloader hunts.
We would all have to take a look at technology and how it has affected trophy hunting in the west. There were 6 companies at the expo pushing their Long range shooting systems, effectivly doubling or quadroupling the range that we can kill a trophy buck. Combine this with hunters using air planes to locate trophies, scouting cameras on every water hole, laser rangefinders, 4 wheelers, UTV'S, GPS mapping, and every other gadget that sportsmen have the opportunity to use you can see how after decades we are impacting trophy quality of mule deer. I'm guilty I use technology but somewhere as sportsmen we have to draw a line. I won't pretend to know where that line should be drawn nor I'm I passing judgement.
We can probably all agree to fix numbers first and then work on quality later because theres very few of us that have the stomach to tackle the trophy quality issues.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-28-11 AT 04:21AM (MST)[p]I agree with alot of what Mike and others are saying......

My two cents is the recent addition of making numerous other units available for 4th season tags combined with predators and weather is starting to show the grim reaper effects.
Throw in landowner tags and there just is not enough large bucks to go around for the continously larger growing group of trophy hunters.
I think that if you get a landowner tag you should lose your points as well and play by the same rules as everyone else.

I drive most of the week through great buck country on the way to work and every year around 4th season some big bucks show up like clockwork....It's not long before everyone in these parts knows or has seen the same bucks.
By the end of 4th season most are dead from 4th season tag holders hit by vehicles or unfortunately poached.
I think poachers are a ((very huge problem)) on the winter range and there just is not enough game wardens to continously monitor the few big bucks left.
Combine the lower number of mature deer to hunt, 4th season tags, landowner tags, poachers, predators, loss of winter range and bad winters and time is not on the side of deer reaching trophy age class.
Some of the few that do make it end up hanging out in towns or in communitees only to no longer be safe because 50 guys or more are waiting to call the Governor tag holders the moment it steps foot onto huntable private or public land.
Hey it's sad but true.

There are many partial solutions to some of the problems but it seems the almighty dollar and greed have clouded the minds of many.
The attitude that getting a huge buck no matter how or at what cost has spread to more and more each year.
Many of us pride ourselfs on actually hunting and earning that buck of a lifetime.
The growing mindset of others needs to collect another one on the wall at all costs. Least amount of effort expended as possible and tell you they are hunting legends and make up lengendary stories of there conquest....Lately it's an epidemic. No really.

Sadly it's getting worse and in every way. I think greed and doing it at all costs has killed more mature bucks lately than ever before.
It sounds like doomsday but I seriously hope that many of you that play by the rules and hunt hard do get a chance to put that buck of a lifetime on the wall.
Big bucks amazingly still somehow against all odds make it through the chaos and are still out there. Not as many but they are there.....
If you put in your time, hunt hard and get that buck it will mean more to you in the end. I wish you good luck.

Apologize for the ramble but I have always stated the way it is even if it makes some immediately defensive and uncomfortable.

Fine print:)
((Some may feel symptoms of guilt, greed, sadness, anger, stomach pains, redness of face, high fever, defensiveness and panty bunching while taking this all in.
If you experience these side effects please look in the mirror to see who is responsible and contact someone with the same
symptoms who actually may feel the same way as you do and cares.))
 
This thread has apparently turned into somewhat of a sounding board for solutions regarding quality and quantity of COlorado deer hunting. Like Whiskeyman said, its not all that bad here in Colorado relative to other states. Problem is deer hunting in many other states is bad to horrendous. Most of the other mortality factors for deer are not within our control but we can control our pressure. Limiting tags further is quite effective and results are seen in 3 years and in 5 years it is really apparent that hunters are the biggest impact on buck numbers. It was shown in the Henry's and in COlorado when in 1999 the conservative tag numbers resulted in re-writing the B&C records in the middle of the last decade.

Those who use the "at any cost" mentality to hunt account for such a small portion of the bucks killed that it isn't that important from an overall management perspective. Problem is that it is ugly to many and there is a subtle implication that one must use similar tactics to compete. Nonsense. Do your best and hunt with your friends and family and enjoy it when you can. I haven't killed a buck in what is coming up on 5 years but I have had a few un-filled tags. My standards are probably unrealistically high right now and may come down in the future but I don't really care to kill another 190 gross buck right now. There are less bucks out there and substantially fewer giants and I haven't been a good of enough hunter to roust one of these up. Plus, I kind of got the freak on for big bulls right now.

All of this still doesn't help anyone with 12 points and no idea in Colorado this week before the app deadline. I wouldn't want to not have a tag in my pocket this year with these late dates for the 4th opener. I don't see the value in waiting another 5 years and stacking up more points as you are walking away from opportunity and you aren't going to kill the big one if you are home next to your computer screen counting your points like a paranoid old miser. Go hunting young man!!!!
 
Mike-
Did not mean to stray from your subject but added reasons that seriosly do impact hunting here in Colorado.
The only things I disagree on is the impact of hunters and poachers with an at all cost mentality certainly does contribute way more than most realize....As does 4th season buck tags.

Accumulating points does seem a waste and I agree that time spent hunting enjoying the outdoors while we can is the way to go regardless if your after a 190"+ buck or not.

I enjoy reading your articles and respect your opinions on anything hunting related even if we may disagree on minute details now and then.
Good luck on your hunts.
Best,
Jerry

44f4e09309b4a917.jpg
 
No biggee Jerry. You can write whatever you want. I will say of all the bucks I have ever spent watching and photographing in the last 23 years in COlorado and that is an absolute huge number, I can only think of a couple that dissappeared mysteriously in what I thought was strangely unusual circumstances. Those could have been road-killed and scooped up by a lucky passerby.

Accumulating points wasn't a waste before the winter of 2007/2008 because of the quality that was out there. Now, I believe its wishfull thinking about hunting bucks that are now dead. Based on the math of figuring the dates of the bad winter and how long it takes bucks to mature, the rebound should start to be apparent when the fawns that were born in the spring of 2009 become mature. 2014-2016 in the areas that were seriously affected.

I would be concerned about the current buck tags numbers statewide. The DOW is under a budget crunch and might be reluctant to curtail tag numbers too much. Right now this nationwide blitzkrieg Elk Hunting marketing campaign by the Colorado DOW is certainly costing a heck of alot of money. Your license dollars for deer must be part of the dollars that help fund this are being thrown around out there with images of huge bull elk in hopes that in the middle of the current recesion, hunters from all over the country will drop everything, buy a 600 plus dollar license, buy gas and diesel for what will probably be over 4 bucks a gallon and come to COlorado in hopes of being one of the less that one in 6 that kills a raghorn bull. Maybe thats why I'm a firefighter and not a marketing genius.
 
"3) A great majority of yearlings died in areas experiencing serious winter conditions and the birthrate and fawn recruitement from does that were pregnant during that winter is bound to be dismal. That is potentially a loss of two years age class from the herd!!! Those deer would be 3-4 this year and the lack of middle age bucks is evident in areas I have observed deer in".

Definitely solid insight on what happened after 2007-2008. I would also add in my area the late winter early spring of 2009 was no picnic as well.

My own non-scientific, personal observation on the death and lack of that age class of buck fawns is as follows: I am a master at finding 2 point deer sheds!!! But in the spring of 2009 I didn't find but maybe 2 total and very few in 2010. It was something that really stood out to me.
 
Yesterday I went shed hunting in Unit 63 to a area where just 3 years ago I went and my pack was so heavy with the sheds I picked up and among those sheds was a set that scored 202 Yesterday I spent 6 hours in there and found absolutely nothing. Not even a 2pt. or a hard white nothing. I would say about 90% of the deer I have been seeing are does. And prior to the bad winter this area was awesome now it's hard to get motivated to go shed hunting. but hey it still beats work. This spring the only 2pt we found was in our yard my 6 yearold son found it while playing. So yea it;s going to be several years before our buck numbers come back. P.s kill every fawn eating coyote you see.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-11 AT 09:47PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-11 AT 09:33?PM (MST)

BUCKSPY,

In all the years I've visited this forum (waaaaaay too many!)......I've rarely agreed with you or seen you sit on the fence. I'd like to see this one!! Having said this.......just how thick is yer butt pad, dude.........I need to get one of those as well.

I agree with you on this one. Just one caution to both you and JC. Most viewers view things as within state lines......as in "Colo sucks from border to border"......don't apply there. Let's all be VERY careful about speaking in generalities about the recent downfall in Colo buck numbers and quality. Just cuz we are obsessed (and rightfully so) with Eagle, Gunny, Mesa, and Garfield Counties.......doesn't mean the whole entire state of Colo has gone to #####. What about eastern Colo, which is about 40% of the state??? Lots of big buck photos these days. What about the front range from WY to Trinidad? What about the non-traditional western/central slope units such as the Saguache area and fringe areas around San Luis Valley? How about faaaaaar NW Colo? The north-central region around North Park and the foothills and Ft Collins? The faaaaar SW corner SW of Durango seems untouched by this recent decline. Is this true?

I'm jes sayin'.........
 
Eastern Colorado is kick ass on the right land and right unit. Yuma county is one of the best producers of B&C nontyps anywhere in the West and I know of 3 bucks 225 or better from the plains last fall. Front range is a damn good place to photograph park and city bucks but most huntable ground is average hunting. La Plata County is one of the top counties as far as entries go since 2007/2008 winter but those numbers might be skewed by an agressive B&C measurerer who does a good job hunting up bucks to measure in the area. There are alot of great hay field bucks taken and a handful of decent Weiminuche bucks but a huge amount of public land down in the area has some surprisingly low deer numbers. I'm personally not convinced on faaaaaar NW Colorado at this point and think we are seeing a slight uptick but buck numbers will drop in the next two years as far as any age class goes. Big bucks in the San Luis Valley are anomalies but there are a few good ones(like almost anywhere in CO) My best buddy saw a 32" plus nontyp sw of Saguache last fall. Decent deer hunting for sure in many areas.

I still don't think any unit has the quality and quantity to justify the points most are taking right now. To me having 12-15 points burned on a hunt should mean a chance at a real slammer buck, not just hopes of crossing paths with a 5 year old 180 buck. Drawing a line from Saguache to Montrose to Dinosaur to Walden and back to Saguache roughly encompasses the units that recieved the brunt of the worst winter range conditions.
Those are also some of the best units during the 6-7 years prior to the winter. Things have changed and its not all doom and gloom but......You're a smart guy and I'm sure you get my point.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-11 AT 11:06PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-11 AT 11:04?PM (MST)

""I still don't think any unit has the quality and quantity to justify the points most are taking right now. To me having 12-15 points burned on a hunt should mean a chance at a real slammer buck, not just hopes of crossing paths with a 5 year old 180 buck.""


Semi-okay with your opinion, Mike.

And shall we now change channels back to Zim's point creep and point cheapening posts that are LIFE IN AMERICA ALL OVER THE WEST these days? Get used to it, as it is here to stay.

Make babies and then whine about lack of opportunity, you narrow-minded, selfish hypocrites! Tooooo many folks and not enough resource! No kidding, wise up. Post your disgust everyone.......but facts are facts...... the writing is on the wall......and there to stay. Trophy unit's days are numbered.

My solutions right now:

1) Get out the checkbook.

2) Hunt elk.

3) Save and go to Africa.


And now, we've come full circle on this topic.
 
>We don't need a 4th season
>in Colorado for deer.
>The tag numbers are token,
>the vulnerability of big bucks
>is too high, and pressure
>on the top end of
>the age class is too
>great. If I had
>a pile of points, I
>would still use them on
>a 4th season tag as
>I do think they will
>go away in the future.
>How's that for sitting on
>the fence Drew?

Mike, you really are being a hypocrite. You are certainly in a position of notoriety where you should be encouraging everyone to lobby against 4th season. To be honest, you have exploited the good units, and big bucks more than most people. Articles, name in books, taking out film crews, making videos etc. Why don't you use your obsession positively, and encourage the biologists and Wildlife Commision to rethink their policies?

Never understood people showing off pics, sheds, etc from big bucks. Hell, in the 80's you could shed hunt all summer, because there was no interest. Now people show up from out of state looking for certain bucks before their antlers even hit the ground.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-11 AT 07:54AM (MST)[p]Monster Muleys, why do you constantly delete posts? Nothing but facts were stated, guess you need to protect your own! Pathetic!
 
Hey Mike took the time to post on MM and made some great points even if some may differ from mine or yours.
We are never going to completely agree with each other 100% of the time.
The fact he took the time to post on here unlike many others in the hunting industry shows he may not be as bad a guy as some may make him out to be....Think about it.
My opinion.
Jerry


44f4e09309b4a917.jpg
 
Sorry I can't respond to everything thrown about out there in a timely fashion that pleases people to the degree to where they don't have to start lumping me in the same class as a convicted criminal because I have written a few articles for Eastmans, entered 3 bucks in B&C and helped out a good friend on a video project 8 years ago.

How am I different???? Depends on your perspective. I am a career firefighter/paramedic for almost 20 years and don't make a living off guiding, hunting, and producing videos. I enjoy writing, have been told I am halfway decent at it and almost everything I have written is advice oriented material that prods people to think outside the box and use their heads when hunting as opposed to the same old often recieted nuts and bolts "how-to" material. Also have included a couple of my own stories along the way on hunts where I really put in a tremendous amount of solid effort and was rewarded accordingly. I also haven't killed a buck since 2006 other than a Coues in Old Mexico largely in part because I have chosen to pass bucks up. I don't feel the need to kill another just because it is expected of me. I have entered some bucks in B&C and last time I checked, it isn't something most people consider to be an event that merits criticism if the hunt follows the fair chase code of ethics outlined by one of the oldest and most respected conservation organizations in the country. Some feel like it is a noteworthy accomplishment while others like Drew4000fps implies that you have to have a personality disorder to have done such a thing. Obviously Chris Darnell aka Two Dogs aka Whiskey man doesn't think so because he has entered his own and I say more power to him.

In the early part of the last decade, I bought for what is now my ex-wife a Canon video camera in large part because we were both taking still shots and it would allow her to film live bucks while I took 35mm stuff. I decided to pack it with me in the 2002 season while hunting with friends and captured some hunting on film which then became part of the Magnum Mulie series that my good friend David Long produced and that is a far cry from the statement that I had film crews following me around the mountains.

As far as lobbying the DOW and the wildlife commision to elliminate 4th seasons........I say good luck to whomever choses to fight the battle. I spent quite a bit of my own time off back in the 90's lobbying the DOW and being apart of the original "Stakeholders" meetings that at the time challenged the DOW that deer numbers were overestimated and buck to doe ratios were abyssmal. There were changes made in buck tag numbers in large part to that outcry and in 1999 deer tags went limited statewide and the buck to doe ratios rebounded. The DOW funding took a large hit and slowly buck tags number inched up saying we were in the heyday of buck hunting bla bla bla. At the time of those meeting,(which I still have all the newpaper clippings with quotes from then DOW employees refuting our premises about the herds) alot of us spent quite a bit of time traveling to commision and Stakeholder meetings in order to get our point across and try and recover some of the deer hunting heritage that COlorado is famous for. It worked but only because the DOW went against their own conventional thought and listened to the anecdotal testimony from those of us that cared enough to participate. I volunteered with the COlorado Mule Deer Association, the MDF, was the guy who put the RMBS BIghorn newsletter together for 3 years along with volunteering on that board and have donated hundreds of dollars worth of framed photographs to conservation fundraising groups that asked me for them. Now the DOW is merging with parks, is strapped for cash and will probably increase tag numbers to increase revenue not reduce them. While I am opposed to the 4th season on principle, I not the time nor energy to go and try to fight it and I say to you Drew4000fps, put your effort where your internet piehole is, start a grass-roots program to eliminate rut hunts and take it on yourself. Its really easy to sit behind your keyboard and lob accusations, potshots and snide remarks intended to cast doubt on me and make me the scapegoat in your mind but to actually get out there and try to make a difference takes much more conviction than you are obviously willing to put out.

ChrisDarnell aka TwoDogs aka Whiskeyman I know you get a kick out of being a cyber instigator, reveling in pushing peoples buttons all with the suggestion that you are a Western hunting "Robin Hood" giving out facts to the uninformed on the REAAAAL secrets in hunting the West but most will remember you as the guy who has been kicked off every forum he has registered to for simply being an azz. You have done well hunting on your own and your success is certainly commendable but saying that you are this solo lone hunting wolf doing it the old fashioned way is probably more of an indication that you are a social misfit that can't get along with others for extended time periods. I enjoy hunting with my friends and the memories and times we share together and feel that I am a better person because of it but its not for everyone. I do get a kick however of you rearing your head every 3 years under another name and posting the same pics you posted years ago under other names. You say I have issues but I have to tell you dude that is just plain weird. Bottle that 30 year old teenage angst and go throw it into Havasu. Life's too short to be a deeckhead 24/7/365.

At any rate, there is a little thrown out there that I am sure will generate more negative feedback from some. I have a life, a great couple of kids, friends that know the meaning of it and a career that I am proud of and feel like I have really put alot of solid time in the hills doing it the right way and have been rewarded by taking some great animals. I do agree with Ole' Paul and have said this many times to many people, "I didn't grow 'em, I just shot him."

Oh yeh, Greatwestern.....I'll send you the pic and give you a pass on this because I see some quality in your previous attitude and thread postings but know that a private message is just that and if I choose to critisize the WIlderness Push-up master for his endless self-promoting for doing nothing more that running around as the Tony Robbins of the hunting world, thats between you and I. ;) Keep on keepin on.........
 
Hey Mike, what do you think causes point creep? You come on this site making a post of how points required for some units, cannot be justified, and some units are overblown in popularity now. It happened because of guys like you leading the way. You won't ever catch me on Hardscrabble leading around a film crew...

Do you remember when you could draw 44 every other year? Now it takes 7 years. Even before the winter kill, it was spiraling out of control. The book doesn't prove someone is a good hunter, but it does prove they love the limelight.
 
Drew you make it so easy to shoot down what you have to say because your opinion is based on nothing more than that of an Eagle County resident that is pissed because the world has changed and not for the better.

Yes I do remember when you could draw 44 every other year but here are some real numbers that won't convince you because you are wearing it on your shoulder but anyone else reading this will see some understanding.

There were 125 2003 3rd season 44 tags with 404 applicants 237 res and 163 non res
There were 15 2010 3rd season 44 tags with 374 applicants 227 res and 147 non res

Hasn't changed much other than one tiny little factor and thats that there were 800% more buck tags in 2003 than last year. Is that 5th grade math simple enough for you or do you want to blame it on my one-man film crew, David Long, my friend that was hunting with my that day. Maybe a bigger factor might be the reduction of overall winter range in the south side of Eagle County with the massive development of vacation homes and permanent residence in the area, a burgeoning elk herd that is flat-outcompeting deer for the range, numbers were overestimated and winterkill smacked the hell out of the herd.

Limelight????? Really??? Thats the best you can do is say I entered bucks in B&C for purely narcissistic ego reasons. Might have something to do with me becoming an official measurer in 2006 because I wanted to and feeling like it's a worthy organization that still has some redeaming aspects of the records keeping and chronically of a hunting history that will go away sometime.

Point creep is caused by too much demand on a limiited product that is amplified in some areas by hype designed to make landowner vouchers more valuable. BUt you have a better answer that you came up with right?? Probably my fault right?
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-11 AT 11:49AM (MST)[p]Dying here, you certainly think you are an expert on 44. Are you calling Eagle Ranch winter range? Building houses on north facing pasture land is certainly and eyesore, but it wasn't winter range. Try again...

And just for the record, the reported high elk numbers are a myth...44 has never been, and never will be a good elk unit. They get mowed down as fast as they are legal.

Hey math wiz, got another stat for you...applicants for 44, 3rd season jumped 25% between 2009, and 2010. This is even after all the bad press from the winter kill.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-11 AT 07:34PM (MST)[p]Wooooow Buckspy,

Least you have the sack to reply. I did wanna hear your side of this, as I was a little curious. Didn't mean to draw out your 3-year old anguish with me. Your pent up anger must surely have affected your life and health after this long.

I didn't go ballistic on you like that, tho. And my posts got deleted. Why do yours get to stay?? Some of what you stated about me is correcto. Glad you remember me and have kept track of me. What made you keep me in mind and track my animals and record book registrations? What made you remember that I promote trophy hunting purism and will until I drop?

Haven't been kicked off all forums tho.......sometimes jes run hot and cold with my participation and sometimes can't remember my registration info and then start over. Some of you forum hounds seem to believe that getting booted is a worse image than being a convicted murderer.......really. I have an intense personality and like LIVELY discussions. Friction and tension are good for my soul. Boring, shallow idiot talk is of no use to me.

I am indeed a total social misfit and sociopath, no question. Only thing I hate more than people is pseudo hunters. Specifically gang-hunters, trail cam users,1000-yard rifle shooters, quad runners, chute-plane owners, animal commercialization hunters, and lazy hunters. Oh-wait....these ain't hunters. Why do I bother with them at all? Cuz I need some information as well sometimes. I expect as good as I give, but rarely get it.

I am the last of a dying breed.......a trophy hunting purist......along with a few of my buddies. One of the last who truly understands what personal satisfaction means and how only purism can stimulate my mind and soul after a harvest. Corner cutting is for wusses and shallow people in all aspects of life. If anyone can't understand this, I feel sorry for them. What ever happened to actually hunting for a trophy animal and earning it??

Mike, why don't you nut up and post some of your pics on here? I'd like to see 'em. We've provided you this courtesy for years.......why don't you actually return the consideration instead of whining about others??

Enough. Now I need to get back to my PM list that is now 2 dozen and growing.
 
Whiskey
Holy Toledo, Dude you are arrogant and self serving. Explain why you think you are so much more pure than the rest of us? Do you have a problem with disabled hunters using their Ford F 150s road hunting? This discussion is a lot deeper than how we scout and hunt. Sounds a bit like penis envy. Again, what's the allegations against Hanes?.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-11 AT 09:43PM (MST)[p]>Whiskey
>Holy Toledo, Dude you are arrogant
>and self serving. Explain why
>you think you are so
>much more pure than the
>rest of us? Do you
>have a problem with disabled
>hunters using their Ford
>F 150s road hunting?
>This discussion is a lot
>deeper than how we scout
>and hunt. Sounds a
>bit like penis envy. Again,
>what's the allegations against Hanes?.
>



Howdy BB,

Sure dunno who ya mean by Hanes.

I'm more pure cuz I don't shortcut and use technology as a substitute for actually hunting, hiking, knowing something about the animals habits and behaviors. I don't hunt from the sky or my cams cuz I'm lazy and can afford those things. I actually hike and sit and glass in the summer and try to use my knowledge of the habits and behaviors of big bucks and bulls to predict where I might cross paths with one. I don't bring my 15 glassing buddies to spread out on all knobs within the area......and I don't hunt winter range where big ol bucks are defenseless like in Eagle County third and fourth seasons. I don't believe that my number one piece of hunting gear is a quad or a trailcam. I don't take special, advertised 1000-yard shooting courses where I can sit on my fat a$$ and shoot from one mountain to the next without stalking.

I don't write magazine articles portraying me as the great hunting stud while I do all these unethical, immoral things just to fuel my narcissism and potentially my pocketbook. I actually believe that my greatest hunting tool is my brain and hard-earned experience and knowledge about these animals.

Sure don't mind handicapped hunters using their vehicles. Long as they don't have better access to great tags just cuz their different than the rest of us. If challenged people wanna be treated as the same......then they need to nut up and not ask for special treatment while singing the blues.

Whatever happened to hunting the way it used to be?? We now have a generation of kids and young adults who truly believe that the first and foremost piece of hunting equipment is a trailcam. The second most is.....a quad. Does anybody remember the old days when this crap didn't exist and hunting was much more satisfying cuz it was done on-the-spot by a man on his own two legs? So-called hunters who take this easy-out are also the same so-called American citizens who bought McMansions that they knew doggone well they couldn't afford while pissing on the rest of us when they defaulted. Same type of citizens who will be the death of trophy hunting and have already been the death of this economy and the financial futures of us responsible hunters and citizens.
 
Well fair enough. For myself, I started with open sites, no binos or range finders. And I can honestly say this: hunting with scopes and high magnification optics is a hell of a lot more satisfying than not having these useful tools. It's fun to evaluate critters before deciding to go after them.
If you live in unit 44, I'll contact you and Mike after I draw, and pick your brains about a few spots and a couple of deer that I've heard of.
 
Yeh, Chris I do have the sack to reply and more because it doesn't bother me to engage you or others. I don't have any anger towards you and certainly don't carry it with me but I do have a really good memory for certain things, like your posts, picturesand how you constantly refer to yourself and your hunting in such grandiose terms that it is amusing. I have seen Bomberblackies post information that suggests to me that he is tuned in and keeps his finger on the mule deer pulse. I have seen Drew post pics of deer he has mounted and have seen pics of mounts he has done and entered in taxidermy competitions. This attention and recognition from his peers as a quality taxidermist is commendable but if someone enters a buck in B&C they are looking for the limelight. I'm sure he will rationalize it and say its different but I think its about showing off his talent and there isn't anything wrong with doing that. I really doubt the tens of thousands of people who have entered B&C animals are looking for the limelight but thats OK too.

My original post was informative even if it wasn't specific in real choices and solutions because I do believe that the situation that I described is real. Its not going to cause point creep to get worse like Drew suggested. The annual increase in overall application numbers, steady decrease in buck numbers, application services and even the increase in human population in the West is to blame. There isn't enough pie to go around. When there were 833% more tags for 44 3rd season 8 years ago, one can easily see why it now takes 7 points to draw as opposed to 1. (Yeh I fine tuned the percentage number cuz' I'm one of them math wizzes!)
As far as a 25% increase in applicants from 2009 to 2010, without having any actual facts to support this, I could see a direct correlation between the huge buck Garth Carter killed there and featured to be the reason. There are people naive enough to think that if they draw that tag, they can get one too but they aren't privy to the same things he is. THose are just realities and I can see a long-time Eagle County resident being pissed and carrying around a certain amount of tribalism and NIMBY mentality. Most of it is public land and those that live there are no more entitled to it than anyone else and that in and of itself is a wonderful thing we should all be damn grateful for.

I'm no expert on 44 but I will say in my opinion, all the residential development on the fringes of the winter range has an impact and an indirect displacement factor. Human activity, every other house being a dog owner and the impact they have walking dogs on the fringe, winter rec actvities all have subtle but real impacts. I think the large herd of elk that works the southwest face of Bellyache has a real impact on the winter range in that area but I'm no biologist and have nothing other than an opinion on that.

I need to self-medicate with some more coffee now.
 
After re-reading Buckspy's initial post, I don't see how he would affect point creep either way, up or down. He's basically saying that a lot of preference points are not desirable anymore but spending them now could be risky, too. That makes me want to spend mine, not get more- just me though. Some may look at it as wanting to save points for a better future, which may never come.

I've found Buckspy's magazine articles and posts over the years very helpful and probably the most realistic viewpoint on trophy hunting out there. If any one remembers his "Colorado's Mule Deer Enigma" article published before the boom of 2004-2006, Buckspy was spot-on then, pretty much as he is now.

I just don't see any reason to bash when the heart of his post was to bring reality to the situation of points in Colorado.

Thanks Buckspy

The Christian
 
As someone who has hunted Colorado most years since 2003 mostly on 2nd choice tags but live to far to ever scout I also appreciate Buckspy and his comments. I have similar opinions to his but have a harder time gathering GOOD info. The Colorado Fish and Game cant give you an honest picture and still try to sell you tags and the hunting services are now mostly self serving in my opinion. They make more money if they hype the units they are selling tags in. So a DIY guy is left to trying to glean some decent info and then you have about 7-10 days of hunting/scouting to do your best and get some good on the ground info for yourself. I just really want to know what my true chances are and then I will decide if it is worth the time and money to go give it heck for a season. But it is hard to get decent info. I feel the combination of better seasons, winter kill, more selective hunters, etc has combined to make it much harder to kill large bucks in Colorado but you still have a better chance than most states/areas. Mainly due to genetics. Thank you Buckspy for what I feel was honest info.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-11 AT 11:12AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-11 AT 11:11?AM (MST)

I think the most disturbing part of this thread is that BUCKSPY was in Mexico hunting dink dog deer!!! :)

Me? I'm just gonna fight the system from the inside. I have a guy lined up with 9 resident points to draw 3rd 44 for the next couple years and turn his tag in on the Friday before the season!! If I can't have a tag, no one will. Don?t make me break out my friend whose wife has 14 points.

A lot of the hype of Colorado Muley hunting is a product of the deer herds booming, the economy booming and the internet booming all at the same time. It was a recipe for bigger than life hype. I am sure a lot more people will be keeping their traps shut about hotspots in the future.

4000fps shouldn't be the bitter one here. I'm the one that has lived a large part of my life in the county and have not killed one of the 200 inchers that are behind every tree. To hell with all of you.
 
Hey Mike, thanks for the e-mail, sorry to have misunderstood you...would like to apologize for my rash and inappropriate remarks, and would like to thank the Moderator for removing them

Cheers'
 
Tribalism and NIMBY. That is some funny chit.

I need some new tires for my quad. My damn Lowa boots look like they won't last a year ( think I'll go back to Mendl) and after placing two dozen trail cams last year...I think I'll donate them to the local homeless shelter. Did I mention the friggin bears destroyed 4 of them? Thank GOD for Cabernet Sauvignon.
 
I had a couple people ask me what NIMBY means and it is an oft used acronym for the phrase "Not In My Back Yard". Its usually reserved for those living by a proposed landfill or nuclear waste dump but I just threw it in there as an obscure reference.

If your a Utard and don't know what tribalism means, better look it up because it is practiced extensively within your state borders. (That is a joke but remember the phrase "Many a truth has been spoken in jest.") NO really I am kidding, ;)

I appreciate the kind words from some of you and hold no Ill will towards Drew and Chris and their cheerful and upbeat contributions to MM. Really Drew, I am OK with engaging in discussion and arguement as long as you keep from unfairly comparing me with lawbreakers and criminals. I'll even buy you a beer at Jaliscos if you ever want to go eat a burrito with me. The Chili Colorado is my fav. I think Chris Whiskey Dogs really is a pretty good hunter but he doesn't have a monoploy on doing the old fashioned way and if this "Renaissance Man" of western hunting pats himself on the back much longer he is going to dislocate his shoulder. Kudos to him though for offering info for those who asked.

Thats all for now as I have to go trim my cat's toenails and summerize my SkiDoo.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-11
>AT 09:43?PM (MST)

>Howdy BB,
>
>Sure dunno who ya mean by
>Hanes.
>
>I'm more pure cuz I don't
>shortcut and use technology as
>a substitute for actually hunting,
>hiking, knowing something about the
>animals habits and behaviors.
>I don't hunt from the
>sky or my cams cuz
>I'm lazy and can afford
>those things. I actually
>hike and sit and glass
>in the summer and try
>to use my knowledge of
>the habits and behaviors of
>big bucks and bulls to
>predict where I might cross
>paths with one. I
>don't bring my 15 glassing
>buddies to spread out on
>all knobs within the area......and
>I don't hunt winter range
>where big ol bucks are
>defenseless like in Eagle County
>third and fourth seasons.
>I don't believe that my
>number one piece of hunting
>gear is a quad or
>a trailcam. I don't
>take special, advertised 1000-yard shooting
>courses where I can sit
>on my fat a$$ and
>shoot from one mountain to
>the next without stalking.
>
>I don't write magazine articles portraying
>me as the great hunting
>stud while I do all
>these unethical, immoral things just
>to fuel my narcissism and
>potentially my pocketbook. I
>actually believe that my greatest
>hunting tool is my brain
>and hard-earned experience and knowledge
>about these animals.
>
>Sure don't mind handicapped hunters using
>their vehicles. Long as
>they don't have better access
>to great tags just cuz
>their different than the rest
>of us. If challenged
>people wanna be treated as
>the same......then they need to
>nut up and not ask
>for special treatment while singing
>the blues.
>
>Whatever happened to hunting the way
>it used to be??
>We now have a generation
>of kids and young adults
>who truly believe that the
>first and foremost piece of
>hunting equipment is a trailcam.
> The second most is.....a
>quad. Does anybody remember
>the old days when this
>crap didn't exist and hunting
>was much more satisfying cuz
>it was done on-the-spot by
>a man on his own
>two legs? So-called hunters
>who take this easy-out are
>also the same so-called American
>citizens who bought McMansions that
>they knew doggone well they
>couldn't afford while pissing on
>the rest of us when
>they defaulted. Same type
>of citizens who will be
>the death of trophy hunting
>and have already been the
>death of this economy and
>the financial futures of us
>responsible hunters and citizens.
>
>


So you won't kill a defenseless deer in the rut but you will buy a tag to kill a defenseless bull in the rut with a rifle? And I hope when you are glassing you aren't using new binos. WOuldn't want to be using technology now would you? And I bet you use a long bow that is homemade cause otherwise that damned technology will be used again if you used a gun.

I do think technology is hurting big bucks, but I'm not gonna be a hypocrit and say I don't use it when basically everything is better today because of technology.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-08-11 AT 06:51PM (MST)[p]FWIW Buckspy, I only subscribe to Eastmans Journal these days. The other trophy hunting mags got way to sickening to me and I let 'em all lapse.

I've been a subscriber to EHJ since 1989, believe it or not. It used to be called Mike Eastman's Outdoorsmen and was just a few pages. Mike was the originator of these types of reader-provided-stories magazines, and the others have copy-catted him. Although I have a few issues with Mike and the mag......Mike and the group share many of the same philosophies that I do. I look forward to receiving it every month same as I did 20 years ago, and the MRS section is definitely worth reading.

Although I'm also a published writer of some hunting articles, I've never contributed to EHJ, although I prolly should have. My photography skills REALLY blow, tho.
 
>Every person who hunts deer in
>CO should lose their points.
> I don't care if
>the hunt is their first
>choice, 4th choice, landowner voucher,
>leftover tag, or doe tag.
> You hunt, you lose
>your points.
>
>That would do a whole lot
>to reduce preference point inflation
>and increase quality, IMO.

I couldn't agree more!

GrizlyHunter
 
>4000fps shouldn't be the bitter one
>here. I'm the one
>that has lived a large
>part of my life in
>the county and have not
>killed one of the 200
>inchers that are behind every
>tree.

You could have, you just chose to go after the elusive 360 bull instead, in a unit known for 160 bulls.
 
I've kinda held back on this one.. but lots of good points made and facts stated here guys. My opinion is trophy mule deer hunting is a crap shoot anywhere in the state as others have stated before me. If you are sitting on a boat load of points I can honestly tell you there is no place in the state where you are guarenteed to kill a big buck or even see one for that matter. I've seen 180 plus inch bucks come out of areas that take 15 points to draw and ones that are general, draw the unit every year units. Killing a trophy class mule deer is something that takes a lot of skill, knowledge of the area, preseason scouting and of course luck! Yes mule deer numbers have fluxuated in the state but it doesn't mean all the big deer are gone. Big bucks don't get big by being stupid and we all know that. And for that reason is why we all of love hunting them, in my opinion a record book muley is the ultimate western biggame trophy. They just aren't a dime a dozen. I can't say I'm not in complete favor of 4th seaon hunts. They are primarly trophy hunts and they do a good job of thinning big bucks during the rut often before they even get the chance to breed and those remaining still have to survive the winter exhausted from the rut. I'm in favor of hunting elk in the rut due to elk breed in september and early october which are for the most part milder weather and they are prodominatly pursued with archery and muzz tag holders which is a lower sucess rate hunt.where as all rut hunts in western colorado for deer are rifle hunts. Bottom line; I still feel Colorado is a premier mule deer state and it still year in and year out produces some of the best opportunities at harvesting a trophy class buck. A man just has to work for one and hope for a stroke of good luck. Just because you have 15 PP's and can draw a limited area doesn't mean you are going to cash in on a big buck. But that's just hunting as we all know..
Coloradoboy
 
Buckspy: Thank you for the info ,it was very enlightning, I am going on 8 preference points as a non-resident. Wow, not sure what to do for next year, Cash in or keep countin' ???

SirRoyal
 

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