shoot every spike deer you see!!

travishunter3006

travishunter3006

Very Active Member
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2,065
"Most of the fawns that were born in 2010 made it through the winter," he says. "These deer will be available to hunters as yearling bucks this fall." Anis Aoude

I think this attitude is why so many hunters shoot the first spike they see. Big bucks don't get big if you shoot them as spikes.

If this guy is so awesome, so much so that he is the big game coordinator for the Division of Wildlife Resources, then why can't HE figure out that letting those yearling bucks grow up is the best plan for the state?

(http://wildlife.utah.gov/dwr/news/4...55-utahs-most-popular-hunt-starts-oct-22.html)










It was a big bodied 2 point.
 
Didn't you know the objective was to have five deer in each unit and two of those being buck. What a deal 40% buck to doe ratio.

Now we can all say WOW! Isn't our game management people doing great, so until we get shoot the spikes and get those darn coyotes and cougars on the does and fawns the job is not done.
 
Wow....such ignorance. Where to even begin...a few things: 1) low buck/doe ratios like Utah's past objective 15/100 are in place to assure the highest possible number of fawns recruited into the herd. In other words, they are better at growing herds that are low. 2) shooting young bucks--like spikes--has virtually NO effect on the overall deer herd because "buck-only seasons generally have little affect on mule deer populations because the remaining bucks breed all reproductively active does. Wide buck:doe ratios and an abundance of younger males may delay timing of breeding, but there is no evidence this significantly affects the reproductive rates of does or the number of fawns that survive to adulthood in a mule deer population." 3) "Yearling buck harvest can affect changes in age structure, sex ratios, and timing of breeding, but these do not significantly affect population as a whole." 4) States that carry very high buck/doe ratios in their mule deer herds have seen much larger declines in their deer herds than Utah has...Colorado, for example, has lost hundreds of thousands of deer in the past 10-15 years despite significantly lowering their deer tags and carrying large buck/doe ratios. 5) Though units like the Henry's appear to be doing exceptionally well to hunters because the number of big mature bucks, the herd as a whole is struggling to grow to objective...growth would be increased if the buck/doe ratio were lowered by offering more tags. 6) General season units should...by the very nature of their name...allow hunters to harvest the buck of their choosing. They should be high opportunity/low quality hunts...limited entry units are the hunts where people can find bigger more mature bucks. Whining about hunters who shoot small bucks on general season hunts is stupid...claiming that they are hurting the deer herd is asinine....
 
W2U, you have some ignorance as well. The nature of the mule deer, is that a doe deer will be selective in who she breeds with, mainly wanting to breed with a mature buck. With Utah having a low number of bucks per does this doesn't give a doe much choice, so the mature buck doesn't breed the doe during the first cycle. THat means she might get bred during the second or thirds cycle.

Now what happens when does are breed later rather than early, well you go look at the fawns right now and you will see some of the late fawns and they are too small to make it through a winter, easy prey for a coyote, and just too small to take on a winter.

To me this means you need more mature bucks to try and get all does breed during the first cycle so that we don't have late fawns that will not make it through the winter. Give them a better fighting chance to make it.

Then again we all want to blame, weather, habitat, numbers, highways, but we never want to face the issue that the high numbers of coyotes, bears, and lions have a bigger impact.
Just my .02 cents. We have started to blame coyotes, but still dont blame the bear or Lion. Bring back the government trapping an poison.
 
I Like what Cantkillathing said.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
I know you guys are talking utah, but we have the same arguments here in Idaho. The research I do says that, by far, the two biggest factors in herd population has to do with Weather(#1 by a long way) and habitat. Actually it is the overpopulation, like Idaho back in 92', that kills you when a big bad winter hit's. Most winter ranges simply can't hold up in bad winters. Isn't that what Colo is dealing with now.
 
i totally agree, if your a first time hunter or youth go ahead and get your first kill under your belt, no matter the size its still exciting, but to shoot small bucks yr after yr after yr is crazy, if you want the meat get a doe or cow elk tag, we cant keep shooting future generation animals, if we as sportmen could set a standard and let the young-uns grow at least 3 or 4 yrs then the herds could boom, each buck could be breeding during these yrs and i think herds would grow fairly fast, if we are not careful pretty damn soon there will be no bucks at all left to hunt and we will all be sitting home staring at the two pointers on our walls, and the fish and game will run out of money cause there will be no animals to hunt, they need to pull there heads out, manage the herds, think long term solutions and not just the dollars they are pulling in today, something has got to give, i think it begins with us hunters andf holding out for a trophy and letting the babies grow to be daddys, if its the thrill of the kill take up predator hunting or bunnys or something
 
You are basing what you say on Todd Black's little theory...probably the essay he wrote and has been printed on this site and many others. The problem with Mr. Black's theory is that it is just that...a theory. In fact, there is absolutely NO evidence that it is true. According to the Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies (of which Mr. Black is a member) "Buck-only seasons can effect changes in age structure, sex ratios, and timing of breeding, but these do not significantly affect the population as a whole. Under normal conditions, fawns are born at a time when habitat conditions are optimal." Also, you are making an assumption that the does are NOT being bred in the first estrous cycle...but you have no proof of it. I would argue that there are enough mature bucks in our deer herds to not only breed the does in the first estrous cycle, but that even if we are left with only yearling bucks, the does will still breed with them. Why? Because they are still the biggest baddest deer around.

Another note on Colorado..."In response to apparent declining mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus) numbers in Colorado during the 1990s, buck harvest limitations were identified as a possible mechanism to increase fawn:doe ratios and hence population productivity. Beginning in 1991, the Colorado Division of Wildlife (CDOW) reduced buck harvest in 4 deer management units to provide quality hunting opportunities. We examined effects of limited harvest on December ratios of bucks:100 does and fawns:100 does using data from limited and unlimited harvest units. Annual buck harvest was reduced by 359 bucks (SE = 133) in limited harvest units as a result of limiting licenses. Fawn:doe ratios declined by 7.51 fawns:100 does (SE = 2.50), total buck:doe ratios increased by 4.52 bucks:100 does (SE = 1.40), and adult buck:doe ratios increased by 3.37 bucks:100 does (SE = 1.04) in response to limited harvest. Based on our analysis, factors other than buck harvest were regulating population productivity, and limiting buck harvest to enhance fawn recruitment is not justified in Colorado. Limited buck harvest should be considered an issue of quality hunting opportunity rather than deer productivity." Funny, huh? Colorado did exactly what you are saying Utah should do...and what was the result? The number fawns decreased.

The bottom line to me is that there are numerous factors that have hurt our deer populations including habitat, highways, predators, etc. However, none of these have anything to do with hunters harvesting yearling bucks.
 
>I know you guys are talking
>utah, but we have the
>same arguments here in Idaho.
> The research I do
>says that, by far, the
>two biggest factors in herd
>population has to do with
>Weather(#1 by a long way)
>and habitat. Actually it
>is the overpopulation, like Idaho
>back in 92', that kills
>you when a big bad
>winter hit's. Most winter
>ranges simply can't hold up
>in bad winters. Isn't
>that what Colo is dealing
>with now.

Yes...exactly what Colordao is dealing with now. During those bad winters, what do they lose? They lose a lot of does and fawns because the bucks are outcompeting them. So, when it comes time to rebuild, all of those bucks are running around but the number of does has diminished. So, what good did carrying all those extra bucks do? None....other than give hunters a false sense of security on a deer hunt.
 
I don't have any trouble with shooting spikes. If you want to play the "what if" game, it could be that the hunter who shoots a spike goes home and doesn't luck into a mature buck later in the hunt.

I do have trouble with a hunter taking a spike and then blaming the fact that he killed a spike on someone else. Be happy with what you take, if your not let it walk. If your not happy with the deer your seeing do something different or make some changes.

My personal opinion is that the mule deer problems are not from harvest, cougars, coyotes, or even by in large part habitat. You can blame some regional issues on each of these issues but not on the scale across the west that we are seeing. There is to much country with very few deer.

Since you can't control the weather, the only remaining issue that we can do anything about is car/deer accidents.

We have spend millions of dollars on habitat that "might" help out in a decade or so. It probably will help and is money well spent. But, if we could lower the car deer accidents by 25% that means deer on the groud immediately.

It isn't as cool as working on habitat, and doesn't provoke the passion that cougars and coyotes do, but, at least from my perspective working to lower car/deer accidents would give us more bang for our conservation dollars.
 
I agree, with most of the hunters on here, to advertise shooting a little old spike is terrible. Let these deer grow up you do not have to shoot a deer every time you get a tag. Get out and hunt a little harder and see if you can find something bigger and by the way when it comes down to the last day of the hunt and you have not found a bigger buck, be a man and keep your tag in your pocket, you do not have to shoot a spike just to say you killed a deer this year. Coyotes are killing the deer and cougars are killing the deer and so are hunters that think they need to fill a tag on a poor little spike, come on raise the bar a little and help the deer have a chance.
 
Lol!!! Wyoming2Utah you are in hostile territory on this site. Don't think you'll get the support that you do on the Utah Wildlife Forum. That's why most your supporters there don't like this site. But fight the battle it will be entertaining anyway.
 
Im not making the assumption that they are no being breed during the first cycle, go out in the field and look for your self, when a fawn is born mid july, it is obvious that the doe was not breed during the fist cycle. Fawns should be born late May first of June.
 
Carefull w2u your speaking common sense that a lot of people here don't understand! I do and agree totally! Well said!

4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
If one was to look back in the boards minutes you would find that they decided not to manage for the deer herds but to manage for the hunting oportunity. This was a result of the survey they ran this last year. They decided to go with what the public wanted which was to hunt not manage the deer herds. If the majority of bucks being killed every year are yearlings it seems logical that in the long run there will be fewer mature bucks. I have hunted the same area for the past 10 years and have seen a decline in mature bucks and does with fawns. Every year the majority of deer killed are yearlings. I am not an expert but logic seems more reasonable. Harvest less yearlings so they will grow to breading age. This will be my last year to deer hunt. The discouragement has gotten the best of me. I will go with friends or family but will not get a tag for myself. The experince of being in the mountains is all I need anymore. One thing is for sure this is a topic that will never be solved.
 
Huh? This past year the Wildlife Board made the decision to increase the buck/doe ratio on General Season units from 15/100 to 18/100...the reasoning was to improve our deer herds. The sad thing is that it will--like the DWR told them--have no effect on the deer herds and a very minimal effect on the buck/doe ratios and number of mature bucks. Worse even is that the number of hunters able to hunt deer on general units will drop by 13,000...and for what? Nothing.

What many on this site simply don't get is that the evaluation of a mule deer herd starts with the number of does and the number of fawns surviving to adulthood. Too often, though, hunters look at the number of bucks--and too often the number of mature bucks--and evaluate the deer herd. The reality, though, is that the number of bucks on a unit has a minimal impact. And, the number of bucks killed by hunters, has a very small impact.

The truth is that the does are being bred, fawns are being born at times that allow them plenty of time to grow to survive the winter, and, yet, something is keeping the mortality of our deer herd below the recruitment. What is it? Probably a long list of things: too many predators (coyotes), too many deer killed by cars, too old of vegetation growing on our winter ranges, too many atv's running around the mountain, too many idiots chasing deer/elk trying to gather an antler during critical winter months, etc...but, again, none of the factors limiting the growth of our deer herds has anything to do with hunter harvest!
 
When I graduated from HS, I got to debate our senior senator on public TV...cause I was the smartest geek in the state. I READ everything (and still do) and have hunted for 50 years. I may be boring but I do study the science on this stuff.

W2U is coming a lot closer to facts than most of what is being printed. He's pretty much right on (according to biological data from all the western states and Valerius Geist) about buck-to-doe ratios.

Another HUGE factor in "how many critters" is the number of predators. You're right about the winter-kill dynamics in the early 90s but missed the part about 5 of the next 6 years being almost perfect winter conditions...lots of moisture and moderate temps. Studies showed the deer were in great condition and there was an EXTREMELY-HIGH birth rate....yet no recruitment.

Where'd they go? Only a couple of option: they were either taken by aliens or eaten. Not even poachers kill many fawns.

It is true that the "biggest baddest" buck around does the breeding, even if he's only a two point. It's also true that he's got the same genes when he's a two point that he'll have if he grows to the 226 5/8th record.


Within the shadows, go quietly.
 
How come elk have no problems when they have a higher number of bulls?

Nothing will ever change until we do something about predators. History has already shown this that when predators were few the deer were plenty. That means all predators not just the coyote, not just lions, and not just bear, all predators need to be treated as coyotes, and should be shot on site.
 
>HE ALLSO THINKS KILLING spike elk
>is good... to me his
>name says it all......


That is nice, why don't you show how dumb you really are by playing the race card. Stupid redneck!
 
I do what I can to kill coyotes. I want to lion hunt but missed the application deadline a few days ago :(. I can't change the fact that animals are killed on the road, I have never hit one, I avoid them to the best of my abilities, as does probably everyone else. There is one thing I can do though, I can let a spike pass by in hopes of something bigger and letting that little guy grow up into a bigger guy and future opportunity.

Nobody can argue that if all the spikes and yearling bucks were passed on for bigger bucks that the buck to doe ratio and total number of deer wouldn't increase. Heaven knows it would.

100 deer

18 bucks

82 does/fawns

8 1 1/2 yr old bucks

8 2-4 year old deer and

2 mature bucks

After 30 guys went out they shot the first buck they saw.

1 mature buck was taken
4 2-8 year old deer were taken
5 yearling bucks were taken.
2 does were shot accidently as well (uh...they went to jail for it)

now after the hunt is over there are 88 deer left.

1 mature buck

4 2-4 year old bucks

3 yearling bucks
and
80 does.

this leaves the area with a buck to doe ratio of 10:100

if the hunters would have left the yearling bucks alone, and gone after a bigger buck we can assume that the success rate would decrease overt all, resulting in higher buck to doe ratios and more deer next year.

I know there are holes in my logic but with out being a-holes, fill in the gaps.



It was a big bodied 2 point.
 
>>HE ALLSO THINKS KILLING spike elk
>>is good... to me his
>>name says it all......
>
>
>That is nice, why don't you
>show how dumb you really
>are by playing the race
>card. Stupid redneck!

Welcome to MM Officer! Great 1st post.

Slick

"The Road goes on forever & the Party never Ends"
 
Elk biology is completely different than mule deer. They are limited by different factors.

W2U is right on.

It boils down to winter range, displacement from elk, and predators to some degree.

In 1983 the deer hunter numbers peaked at 230,000. Today we have less than half the hunters and more than half the deer. I think hunting is great today. I see big bucks every year and if I hunt hard I usually have an opportunity at a good buck. I usually screw that up, not the DWR.

I think this year has been outstanding. I am even more excited about the future with the new management.

People have been bashing the DWR for ever, I have found that those who do the most bashing usually know the least and the good knowledgable hunters just get it done.


I went tho USU with Anis Aoude, he is dang smart and understands mule deer issues as well as anyone. He is in a no win situation. No matter what the DWR does half the hunters are going to get pissed.

Yes, I would like it if fewer two points got killed, but it is not up to me what a 14 year old kid or any other hunter does, I can only control myself.
 
coyotes* they have done a pretty good job at killing (mismanaging) the cougars..
 
Lions are at all time lows in most areas. habitat, roads, and coyotes are the hugest problem right now.
 
I went tho USU with Anis Aoude, he is dang smart and understands mule deer issues as well as anyone.

bull butter

>Elk biology is completely different than
>mule deer. They are
>limited by different factors.
>
>W2U is right on.
>
>It boils down to winter range,
>displacement from elk, and predators
>to some degree.
>
>In 1983 the deer hunter numbers
>peaked at 230,000. Today
>we have less than half
>the hunters and more than
>half the deer. I
>think hunting is great today.
> I see big bucks
>every year and if I
>hunt hard I usually have
>an opportunity at a good
>buck. I usually screw
>that up, not the DWR.
>
>
> I think this year has
>been outstanding. I am
>even more excited about the
>future with the new management.
>
>
>People have been bashing the DWR
>for ever, I have found
>that those who do the
>most bashing usually know the
>least and the good knowledgable
>hunters just get it done.
>
>
>
>I went tho USU with Anis
>Aoude, he is dang smart
>and understands mule deer issues
>as well as anyone.
>He is in a no
>win situation. No matter
>what the DWR does half
>the hunters are going to
>get pissed.
>
>Yes, I would like it if
>fewer two points got killed,
>but it is not up
>to me what a 14
>year old kid or any
>other hunter does, I can
>only control myself.


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You guys can argue all you want about this and that..the problem is TOO MANY PEOPLE...almost 7 Billion....get the human herd down to 2 Billion...you'll have a better Mule Deer population..
 
Travishunter is right if we would all pass on the spikes and two points and hunt for the bigger bucks which yes there are a lot fewer of, the amount of bucks will increase. I think we all agree there are less mature bucks so less tags would be filled if we set are goals for a mature buck. Let the little guys have a chance to grow before you waste you tag on 5 packages of meat. As for the does, I am sure that Coyotes and Cougars kill more than their fair share, but if Anis is so smart and knows this why would they ok all of the antlerless permits each year. I guess common sense tells us all of these other factors are killing off the herd so why have a hunt, but then again I get reminded that hunting does not decrease the herd. That is all bull.
 
Building houses on winter range is the biggest problem in my eyes. Here in cache valley the prime winter range is almost gone. subdivisions after subdivisions are getting higher on the hillsides. Which means more roads and more places for cars to hit deer. I believe winter habitat should be the first priority! Thats the hardest time of year on the animals and if we were to focus on getting some of it back or helping improve whats left would be very beneficial. Maybe that should be dedicated hunters first priority? just my opinion... also, close shed hunting till the middle of April! Next, i think the coyotes haven't been helping. This past year i can't count the number of times i watched coyotes chasing deer. It made me sick!!! I am going to focus on eliminating a few more coyotes this winter. And there is no way the dwr can make everyone happy because there are so many different "wants" from us as people. There is no way they could manage it to everyones standards. I am excited to see what the 29 units will do for Utah this next year, i'm glad they are trying something different! Its definitely a trial and error process so be patient and we as hunters need to help out as much as possible! Good luck to all you hunters out there!
 
Everyone says they are going to concentrate on the coyotes this winter. To me this is not the time you want to shoot them. Although it doesn't hurt. If you want to control them shoot the ##### when she has her pups. Then shoot the pups.

avatar_2528.jpg
 
right on swb... shoot them inthe anis .. and to usu if anis is the best youve got .close your doors.....
 
timothymarks wrote:
"Lions are at all time lows in most areas. habitat, roads, and coyotes are the hugest problem right now."

Yah Right! I don't believe that for a minute. Those stupid pursuit permit makes the lions more wary and away from the roads. You can't drive up and down the road in the snow and cut a track anymore.

How come the hunters in the southern region are claiming to find a lot of lions kills.
 
Some good points brought up. I think a lot of guys become frustrated on the general rifle hunt because it's not easy to turn up a big, mature buck. There are always people out there that just shoot the first little buck that steps out into the open, and that's a buck that didn't have a chance to grow into his full potential. I think a lot of guys who go out and don't see bucks under every tree, equate that with an unhealthy deer population.

W2U makes some good points, but I disagree with his statement that, "but, again, none of the factors limiting the growth of our deer herds has anything to do with hunter harvest!"

Hopefully with all of the mortality studies that are in place/being put in place by the DWR we can gain a better understanding, in specific areas/units, of more specifically how many deer are being killed by predators, vehicle collisions, etc. In theory, at some point, hunter harvest can contribute to a decline in population once a certain threshold is exceeded. In other words harvest is no longer in the category of "they would have died anyway." Without knowing specific population numbers, I don't think you could ever safely say that harvest may not be directly impacting populations in some areas.

The bottom line is there are too many variables and too many unknowns, which make it extremely difficult to give any definitive answers about why mule deer herds continue to decline in many areas. My take anyway.


BowHuntr
 
I also don't believe the cats are at an all time low either. It seems every year I see more lion kills and more tracks. I even saw one this year sitting next to the road. Cat just sat there about 10 yards away while I dug my video cam out.

I do believe the division gives out way to many rifle tags. It is evident when you look at any general unit in the state and can't find an older age of deer. Then look at an archery only area that can be hunted for 4the months. Some where there is a balance. 33% rifle 33% archery% 33 muzzy tags. Shorten the range of the weapons will imho bring better bucks back. I've simply seen it way too many times when a deer is on one side of the canyon 500 plus yards away and have someone shoot a box of shells at it.

I've said this way to many times in the past. Im in the minority on this and don't care anymore. If I get a tag all I can do is make do with what opportunity im given.

Shoot the cats, shoot loads more coyotes in the spring, reduce tags on most efficient weapon, shut down wheeler trails, fence the highways. What else can't you do?
 
Under normal circumstances, killing spikes and does should not affect overall herd numbers. In fact, population numbers remain healthy and viable. However, when deer herds are struggling for whatever reasons to biologically sustain themselves, the killing of spikes and does IMO can only further impact the ability of any herd to survive.

Eldorado
 
I have had a few guys take me out to where they were always seeing lion tracks and all these kills never once could a lion track be found . i HAVE MADE BELIEVERS OUT OF MANY WHEN THEY PUT THE MILES ON THEIR OUTFITS AND BOOTS DRIVING ROADS AND WALKING CANYONS LOOKING FOR TRACKS .Here in SE Idaho lions are at low some of their lowest numbers ever.As are deer .Just becouse you find bones does not mean it is a lion kill.
 
i wont speak for southern Utah, I believe the lion population to be better there than northern utah. however I do hunt in northern utah and I am new to it but the guys I hunt with are not. They all say that there are far fewwer lions now than there ever has been. You deer hunters can argue it all you want, (and your doing a good job since the DWR wants to kill um all) but in the end all hunters need to be together or we will lose our rights to hunt at all.
 
Your right smiley 90% of the guys out there who see lion tracks are looking at coyote tracks. or moose tracks lol..
 
I realize I will not make friends by saying this in a deer forum, but Here is the maor flaw to blaming lions, you can denie it all you want but its a fact. they are issueing more tags each year, and more lions are being killed. The deer herd continues to decrease. Naarly 50% of lions killed are female, if 50% of the deer killed were does how would the herd do? The division of wildlife who is in the pockets of the SFW are killing more and more every year without concern to the over-all population. But hey lion hunters got what they asked for right (female sub-quotas).. ya except the sub-quota is double the number of female lions killed on average. I like to hunt everything, you can make the claims you wish that is fine, but I would honestly like a real solution to the problem. Wipeing out all the lions and bears isnt going to do a thing when the main culprit is coyotes, roads, and habitat. Bountiful is a perfect example of habitat. they estimate 500 deer are living within city limits, the more we interfere with there habitat the less deer we will have. Another huge factor is the elk. But we dont go out and shoot all elk on sight? Someone said poison, hell yes bring back 1080 and the deer will rebound.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-11 AT 01:07AM (MST)[p]Timothy/smiley
you control a cat heard so to speak by killing the females. A cat population will grow out of control if you only kill big b&C toms. The reason the sfw and the division are killing the females is they want to cut the numbers down. Now ask yourself how come the best units to draw a tag for big toms are the same units that are suffering general deer units ect ect.

By the way Bountiful doesn't have a problem with big bucks or lack of deer! So one could draw a conclusion the deer are being chased into town by the cats/coyotes. I know those hills are loaded with both of them.

since you cant find a cat lets make a deal. If I find a track will run your dogs but I get to kill it. I can guarantee you ill find a track! Ive seen enough in snares, trees, ect to know the difference between a moose track and lion track.

Ask a wolf lover if there's enough wolves and I would bet its the same answer a lion chaser will give you about cat numbers. Then ask an elk hunter/deer hunter if wolves/cats effect the deer/elk population I bet you get the same answer. So who's correct?


avatar_2528.jpg
 
You need a base herd to handle the mountain lions of old and that herd is well below those numbers. Now you have the elk on the mountain to sustain the cats and other predators when the easier deer are not available for the major food source. Talk about a catch 22. Management teams are not smart enough to stay on top of predator control to keep up with existing game animals thus one reason for the deer plunging to the cellar.

One thing to add: The most infuriating statement I hear and have heard is that they(deer) are out there. Just reminds of the old days when every year the DWR would come out with the same yearly statement in ol' Rooster Valley that the pheasant population was about the same as last year. Now you can see a sea of orange out there for that last pheasant. Only those of you who are old enough to remember hunting pheasants in the Pre-70's can appreciate that one.
 
the deer herds are shitty all over the state the lions have nothing to do with it. I am a deer hunter, i am a lion hunter i am a elk hunter I hunt it all. I understand that my idea of enough lions is different than yours. I also understand your point about killing females, however 40% is too many by any conservation standard. I would be willing to take you up on that offer though, you fine me a lion track and i wont stop you from killing it.
 
buckmaster,
when it comes to cats you sure don't know wtf you're talking about

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Timothy
I realize the deer herds are crappy all over this state. This is why shooting every coyote you see is a plus. Shooting any cat is a plus and cutting more rifle tags is a must. I also think the land carp need to be cut back as well. I've seen some pretty bad browsing damage done by them on the winter range and it only really effect the deer during their most vulnerable time.



avatar_2528.jpg
 
swbuck,
you just now noticing a problem with the ut deer herd?

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Bess I don't have a problem with the deer herd I hunt. It can hold its own against any le unit in this state.

I have known the rest of the general units in this state sucks for years. Why do you think I promote equal tags 33% archery 33% muzzy 33% rifle?

Why do you think I don't like to hunt for myself on the general pumpkin patch hunt? It sucks only being able to hunt for 3 days and all you see is tards. 15,000 total tags state wide is much better for my sanity then 20,000 tags in one weekend on one unit. It has never had anything to do with me hating to hunt with a rifle like you would like to rat hole me.

avatar_2528.jpg
 
SW,
I would love to see a few more of the new micro units go to only primitive weapon hunting and see the results. When I say primitive that would not include inline muzzys!!! They are better than the 30-30s that half the orange arm use to pack!!!!
 
and muley_73,
while you're at it make bucky go back to a long bow,if we're downgrading weaponry he gets his cut too

[font color = red size = red size = 10 face ="face"]TAKE NOTE:MY SIGNATURE WON'T PLEASE EVERYBODY SO DON'T EVEN READ BELOW IF YOU'RE EASILY OFFENDED BY EVERYDAY BS ON MM[/font]
 
I don't think that inlines, tactical scopes, slider sights, etc., should be done away with. I think w just need more deer. lets just work on that. I would be there in bountiful with my truck and a hose trailer ready to remove3 and transport as many of the supposed 500 resident deer to area that could use them.



It was a big bodied 2 point.
 
I am friends with a old time houndsman and he will confirm that cats are at the lowest population that he has ever seen. He relates that in his best year in central Utah chasing cats he treed over 100 cats in one season! Last year he treed 4!!!!!!
Same effort, same area. One of those 4 was mine that I took. We went out 4 days, in 4 different areas. The only lion track that we found belonged to the lion that I killed. Not as many lions as everybody thinks there are.


}}-SLIVER-->
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-20-11 AT 12:43PM (MST)[p]If the deer are at an all time low then it makes sense to have the cat population at an even worse all time low. This will only help the deer rebound faster so you can then have more cat tags in the future. It makes no sense having b&c cougar areas on general deer areas.

Its called political management. Isn't it fun?

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I would hunt with a Long Bow every year if I knew everyone else was doing the same. Can you imagine how many big bucks would be running around the hills and how much fun it would be to actually get to hunt and chase them. Success or not it would be great.

If Utah was all primitive (just use high powered rifles for special hunts and keeping the buck numbers in check) everyone could hunt every year. You could even road hunt for that matter and have a chance at some great deer.

When you feel like your entitled to kill a trophy animal then its not hunting anymore.
 
LETS SEE.... MULE DEER FOUNDATION.... ELK FOUNDATION....SFW. MOOSE FOUNDATION. HOW COME THIER IS NO LION FOUNDATION?. MAYBE BECAUSE THIER IS ONLY 5 PEOPLE ON THE PLANTE THAT LIKES THE GAME EATING SOBS..........
 
I think that inlines are a good cut for primitive units. That is my opinion and Im sure others would disagree. Yes I also think that archery is advancing and more effective than when long bows where the only options. I just think that if we are limiting rifle tags we should also take a look at some other factors that increase harvest rates.

Maybe primitive should be loin cloths and rocks? That would make for some scary field pics!!!
 
I think inlines are ok and slider sights. Atleast we have equipment capable of making these shots, instead of just lobbing bullets from your grandpas old hawkens 50 at 300 yards or 80 yard recurve shots.





It was a big bodied 2 point.
 
Buckmaster i wish i could legally give you $100 dollars for every lion track you find fresh enough to run my dogs on. Would save a ton of money running lions this winter. Lion aren't the reason why you guys can't get a nice buck this weekend. Try passing on some 2 or 3 points. I'm a deer hunter also and I would dare say it is easier to shoot a 26" or better buck than tree a lion after a fresh snow storm with perfect conditions. When i first got my hounds i thought like a deer hunter and knew for sure that there where way to many lions and i wouldn't have a hard time at all getting a lion. Well I was wrong. It took me 2 years before i treed my first lion, not because of a lack of effort I couldn't find a lion track on my deer hunting unit where all the lion were eating all the deer.
 
Glad to see another lion hunter on the forum! The thing I find funny is as hunters our biggest reson used for fighting the antis is conservation. Yet there are those who only want to be conservative with the animals that they hunt. not a very good idea... Someone posted a thing about the wolves and how wolve lovers would feel the same way I do. The problem with that argument is the wolf is a non native species, and our ecosystems have adapted to a climate where there are no wolves. I dont think we should have huge numbers of lions but a stable population effectivly managed by the DWR with a plan that they actually follow through on would be nice.
 
muley73
at least the equipment is capable, instead of having evey tom ##### and harry tyig 300 yard shots with their grandpa's old hawken 45.


It was a big bodied 2 point.
 
in theory it sounds good but like I already said the division has been killing more and more lions and the deer populations have only gotten worse. when are we goign to start expecting real solutions instead of just going the easy route and scapegoating the lions. you want an increase in deer herds, shoot more coyotes, increase habitat, and find a way to stop road kill.
 
timothymarks wrote: in theory it sounds good but like I already said the division has been killing more and more lions and the deer populations have only gotten worse. when are we goign to start expecting real solutions instead of just going the easy route and scapegoating the lions. you want an increase in deer herds, shoot more coyotes, increase habitat, and find a way to stop road kill."

Again I say, as the deer herds decrease, so will the predators have to be decreased. Certainly don't talk to the hounders and don't talk to the DWR who ride the roads. Don't talk to me or the other seniors who don't or can't get into the back country. Talk to the HARD HUNTERS and take notes. Most will tell you of apparent lion kills. I'm not a big supporter of all the archers, but here is Southern Utah, they are the dedicated hunters and most will tell you of the lion kills they have seen.

Certainly more lions have been killed as should be. Keeping a good base herd is the secret. Get the herds back first and then you can get the lions back. A person who has a cabin above Salina sat in his cabin living room and watched three lions come down down to water. That area is mostly void of any deer or elk.
 
If the area is void of deer then why are the lions there? lions are very transient they wouldnt remain in a area without deer. And what does seeing lion kills have to do with there being too many lions. From what I have seen from most "deer hunters" who see lion kills they freak out and start whining about how the lions are killing all their deer. over one lion kill.. even if you find several how does that prove a problem? However to entertain the idea I did say that I cannot speak for southern Utah because I do not hunt it, but northern I hunt and my friends hunt. While yes there are lions in northern Utah the lion population is not healthy at all. As far as you talk about "hard hunters" I would classify myself in that category as well as you mentioned dedicated hunters i am also a dedicated hunter. I am in the hills year round wether it be coon, bear, lion, elk, deer, bobcat, or coyote im out hunting something every weekend. there is a problem here.
 
The Tom, Richard and Harrys taking 300 yard hawkin shots are the same dip5hits taking them with inlines...without the same success. The guys that would stalk closer with a hawkin are probably the guys that are killing deer at 300 yards. Getting closer is the tough part and that's what makes it primitive. It is tougher to learn to get close than to shoot a modern inline muzzy out to 300 yards??? Just my opinion.....
 
I agree. I cant believe that this is the answer to so many angry hunters. What a joke.
 

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