Utah Deer number population question?

[cantkillathing]

Okay I have a question. How come when you are in the mountain, or basically anywhere in the state where there is food and water sources you can find a group of elk. No matter where I hunt high, low, and even desert areas I can come up with some elk. So by theory according to population numbers we have 68,000 elk, and 310,000 deer. Why is it I see more elk than deer no matter where I go. By strictly numbers I should see 5 times more deer than elk. But I find the opposite, Why is That?

My guess is if we have 68,000 elk, then we probably really have 40,000 deer. I really dont think we as sportsmen really realize how crappy our deer herds are. I dont buy the 310,000 number just by experience in the field and sheer numbers I see far more elk than deer.

When your out deer hunting this year do yourself a count, count the elk you see, and the number of deer you see and tell me what you come up with.

 

[travishunter3006]

how many post over the last 100 years on this website have said
"where are the elk" "need elk help", etc...

If you see that many elk, lets be best friends and hunt those big stinkies together!!



It was a big bodied 2 point.

 

[cantkillathing]

The difference is you are probably in an any bull unit, go to any of the spike only units and you will see elk.

 

[need4x4]

Don't you know, deer are invisable.

Just messing with you. My last two trips to southern zone procuced more bull elk that buck deer sighted on each trip. This was while up on the mountain.
However on the way back down, in the agricultural area, one field contained hundreds of mule deer. This is probably they issue. Large concentrations of mule deer on private or areas not accessable.

 

[AndymanSavage]

Cantkill(whokilledabuckandbulllastyear)athing,

We hunted the same mountain as last year on the muzzy. We had deer and elk tags. We saw less than ten cow elk, fifteen or more bulls, over forty does and seven bucks, two of those four points and we killed one of those.

-----------------------------------------------
http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/

 

[Alphahunter]

This post is laughable. Your sound scientific methods and logic are, in my opinion, a joke.

"My guess is if we have 68,000 elk, then we probably really have 40,000 deer."

Do the sportsmen of Utah a favor and don't ever go into the wildlife management field. That, or buy yourself a better pair of binos.

 

[UtahMountainMan]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-18-11 AT 02:05PM (MST)[p]There is a lot more science to it than that. For instance, where I hunt in the north manti area my grandpa owns a small piece of land up at 10k feet elevation and I own a small piece of land at the same elevation. Our properties are literally 1 mile apart as the crow flies. He has 30 acres and we have 40 acres.

My grandpas property I will see 25 deer for every elk, year after year, season after season. On my property, that we have owned for only 4 years, I have seen hundreds of elk and 1 buck. I see 50 to 1 elk vs deer. Our land is steep and covered in engelman spruce/pine. My grandpas is a little less steep and has more brush and quaking aspen.

 

[headshot1]

People need to think when they say stuff about the deer population....yeah it sucks bad, bad, bad, but of course if you go to a limited entry elk unit after spikes you will see more elk than deer...unless maybe you are in the bookcliffs. Go to any general season area and you will see far more deer than elk with any ability to use binoculars.

 

[cantkillathing]

my 40,000 number was a little dramatic, but my point is there is not 310,000. When you see more elk than deer, and I am on general season deer units. The LaSal and Blue mountain, you will see more elk than deer.

 

[huntinfanatic]

I understand your doubt about the actual population but you comparison is a little out there. Thats like saying there are very few elk in the state because you went to the henrys and the paunsaugunt and saw 100 deer for every elk you saw. Just about every one of the LE elk units(general spike units) obviously have more elk than deer because that is what they are being managed for.

 

[cantkillathing]

hunting fanatic, this isn't just LE elk units, come down on the san juan, lasal, elk ridge units. San juan is a general season deer unit, lasal is a general season deer unit, elk ridge is a LE deer and LE elk. 90% of the state is LE elk units which are spike units aswell.

 

[huntinfanatic]

Cantkill, what you just said in your last post helps me prove my point. 90% of the units are being managed for trophy elk(limited tags),most bulls getting the chance to mature, while those same units are being managed for opportunity deer hunting(tons of tags)not many bucks getting a chance to mature. Im not saying this is the only reason the deer herd is supposedly declining but it does show which animal the state has prioritized.

 

[theox]

well the thing with elk is when they count them it is like a 80 percent visibility so they figure the number out like that.if they see 80 elk they figure 100 in the area etc. deer dont herd up like elk and are much less visible they are more spread out and deer numbers are actually more of a guess than actually counting them like they do elk. they use computer models to estimate deer pop. so elk numbers are probably way more accurate then the deer est.
I personally think the last couple years deer are just more spread out with the better feed and water situation. we got used to seein all the deer grouped together where the little bit of food and water was during the drought years. now that they can spread out it seems less.
do i think deer numbers are down ... yes but i dont think they are as bad as you think. some areas i have seen increases in deer numbers other places less deer and i believe it due to better feed in these areas. just my opinion nothing scientific here

 

[nebo12000]

Personally, I think that saying there is 310,000 deer in the state is being very generous or overly optimistic. That being said the DWR just started using a "new" deer population computer model a couple of years ago. On one unit in the Central Region the "estimated" population went from 21,000 to 15,000 in one year ! Anise A. has said in a number of RAC meetings that they don't know how accurate their numbers are but that they are required to use a computer (scientific)model by the Legislature to come up with deer population numbers. In the unit I just referred to, I would be absolutely stunned if there were more than 10,000 deer. I remember as a younger hunter hearing the complaints of not seeing more deer during the general rifle season-- but most hunters at the time were not hunting as hard as we have to today. I remember that the complaint was more about seeing a 100 does and fawns but no bucks. Now it seems as though the complaint is that we only saw 7-8 does and fawns. I do believe that there are a higher ratio of bucks to does but that has happened because of limited tags. I don't think that the DWR really knows how to get the herds increasing in most areas. We would have to go back to the days of killing predators year round with no limitations. But that is simply not going to happen because of political issues, money etc. The glory days of the 60's and 70's of higher deer populations may never happen again, but it can be much much better, but revenue and political correctness would have to be set a side to do what is necessary to get the deer herds increasing to carrying capacity.

 

[Coyote_chaser]

Habitat, habitat, habitat, habitat, habitat, habitat.... That word cannot be said enough. Just look at urban sprawl, it is EATING up winter range like crazy. Even in the last 10 years spots in my hometown that were great winter ranges are now replaced with subdivisions. And that is true across the entire state.

 

[Deerlove]

Where's the urban sprawl in SW Utah??

 

[Deerlove]

Check that SE Utah?

 

[huntinfanatic]

+1 theox, i couldn't agree more.

 

[headshot1]

Couldn't agree more about the winter range being hard on the deer population. What really hurt the deer in the northeastern unit was the fire a few summers ago followed by the hardest winter in years....all in the same year. Burning all the sagebrush(winter range feed) making it really hard for the deer to survive. What they should have done is shut the whole south slope down for a couple of years and then opened it back up with increasing tag numbers year after year depending on herd populations

 

[3blade]

One thing that no one mentions when it comes to habitat is what happened in the 50's and earlier. They logged the forests. My neighbor remembers the great hunting of the 50's, 60's and 70's. He also remembers the 2 saw mills on the panguitch unit. lets face the facts, deer eat browse species of plants, not pine needles. If you clear off some of the trees and let the sun hit the ground, food will grow and more food will support more deer. But... you have got to have winter range that will support a larger herd.

 

[chsnmuleys]

drive around the wasatch front cities bet you see no elk..... and there is more then 68000 elk in utah gurentee

 

[c3]

Travis, I was down in your neck of the woods this weekend and saw 3 elk and over a hundred and fifty does. Not a single buck for Jr to shoot at though

If you know anyone with a late elk tag I might have some intel.

Cheers,
Pete

 

[muleycrzy]

cantkillathing
I agree with you 100% and I wouldn't be suprised if that was our deer numbers. I live and hunt on the Pahvant unit and I know there are alot of opinions about it and the number of deer. I am priviledged to have a very light schedule in the winter and spend a ton of time out counting deer in the winter. When I saw the division estimate that our deer population was about 10,000 only 2000 below the objective of 12000. I knew the number had to be wrong. I started counting on the north end and worked my way south. I did this twice, I got 2700 once and 2430 the next time. I know I missed a fair number of deer and estimated the population to be 3500. I did not count the number of deer last year but I can tell you that there were less than the two years prior to that. This year is even worse! I don't think that the division has a grasp on the dismall conditions of our deer herds. The computerized model that the division is legislated to use is wrong. I can guarantee we do not have 9000 deer on the pahvant which was last years estimate.

 

[cantkillathing]

So far I have seen 3 bobcats, 20 coyotes, 15 antelope, 30 does, 3 bear, and one small 2 point, and only 1 cow elk. But why should you see elk in the desert, but I did see one. Since I cant do it in the desert, I am going to move up and see what I find. Like I said I was probably pretty dramatic when throwing out my numbers, but just wish sportsmen would get involved more with how our deer herds are struggling. Going to smaller units is not going to increase our deer herds at all, it will still be the same crappy herd. Predators need to be reduced, again all predators, lions, coyotes, and bear, bobcat.
C3 sorry your son couldn't seal the deal.

 

[huntin50]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-11 AT 01:16PM (MST)[p]Dispite lot's of efforts on habitat, predator control, fencing highways, signs on deer crossings, the deer numbers in Utah and many Western states are well below objectives.

I hunted helped a guy on Muzzle loader elk hunt on the Cache unit. The last two days had fresh snow. Did a lot of glassing, hiking, and driving roads. Before the 92-93 winter we would see over 100 deer easily in the same area. I saw 4 does and fawns. Very few deer tracks. Deer can't walk on air very far.

Driving up Logan Canyon at night we would often see 30-50 deer in a night. I saw two deer, in two nights of driving home.

We lost quite a few deer last winter and spring.

Coyotes, Cougars, and Cars kill alot more deer than hunters.

Habitat is very important. However, we are not likly to make many big improvements. Utah is doing a lot more than other states.

There are a few big bucks. The over all deer population is very sad. Closing the hunt for 5 years won't help the over all population much. The few does we have seem to be getting bred.

I have seen hundreds of Trail cam pictures over the past couple years. You get a fairly good idea on the population of deer, elk, moose and predators in certin areas.

I still believe we have too many predators for how few deer we have. We need to get some help from mother nature. Maybe things will improve some.

The computer models are way off. We have known that for years. Let's do manditory harvest reports for every hunter.

 

[Verticalslope]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-27-11 AT 08:17AM (MST)[p]I agree with you muleycrzy. My family owns property on the Holden side of the Pahvant and the deer numbers are WAY down. Just five years ago we had over 300 head of does and fawns wintering on our lowest section of property. Last year we maybe had fifty. This past week have seen on average 4-5 does a day in the areas that once held hundreds. The DWR's numbers for the Pahvant are way off. Plenty of coyotes though. A few less as of this last month.

 

[cannonball]

Huntin50 wrote: "Habitat is very important. However, we are not likly to make many big improvements. Utah is doing a lot more than other states."

Really!! Think so? For what - the elk. I kept hearing that they were grading up sage brush, pinion and juniper, above Glenwood, Ut. I went up there and so happened to run on to the person in charge of the "chaining" if you will. I said, did they plant a lot of browse. His response was, "very few forbes(may be misspelled), mostly grasses". Do deer eat grass? - No! - elk eat grass (one of deer second-hand predators). Why don't we utilize the dedicated hunters planting browse and forbes rather than some of the things that don't help our deer herds. They are the three season deer hunters not three season elk hunters or anything else.

I was against small units originally and now I am totally for them for this one reason: It will require the game managers to look at small individual units. Their idea will be, if the deer herds are way below objective, lower the objective. That is one of the problems with the buck to doe ratio. Their thinking is you can raise the ratio by not having as many doe.

Lets clear the woods in the Salt Lake Office of the stagnant thinkers and get someone in there that really understands our game problems, and will admit those problems.

 

[carnicero]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-27-11 AT 10:12AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-27-11 AT 10:11?AM (MST)

Elk are very hardy and robust, not nearly affected by pressure, winters, habitat, etc as deer are, biological fact. The deer are in trouble in this state. Period. That is one reason why the DWR is revising deer units, tags available, etc. Urban sprawl and metropolitan encroachment over the last 20 yrs along the Wasatch corridor has been devestating. Increased road kill has been devestating. Increased hunter numbers and advancement in technology and access has been devestating. Anyone who does not admit that the deer herds in this state are in trouble is in the dark and clueless. Until deer hunters are willing to sacrifice hunting every year and the DWR is willing to sacrifice revenue it will continue to be a problem. Welcome to Utah- population boom, too many resident hunters afield, it is what it is.