Doubt you're gonna get much support when the archers are the only people who really aren't giving up much. Maybe if they had to pick either the early or late season. You could offer 2 different rifle and muzzy hunts as well, one earlier of 2 or 3 days and a second right after that would last say 5-7 days. That would give people options.
MY OPINION. what do you guys think?
- Thread starter fly4fish
- Start date
hornkiller
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,211
You must be a bow guy!
i was thinkin the other day.. how would a manage the deer in utah if i had control and how would i set up the seasons.. just for fun. i thought about it and this is what i came up with
start the season off with a 14-15 day long archery hunt in august. followed by a 3-5 day muzzle load hunt in september. then in october have a 3 day rifle hunt. then end the season with an additional 14-15 day late archery hunt in november. the late archery hunt being 3 point or better
start the season off with a 14-15 day long archery hunt in august. followed by a 3-5 day muzzle load hunt in september. then in october have a 3 day rifle hunt. then end the season with an additional 14-15 day late archery hunt in november. the late archery hunt being 3 point or better
OR....reduce predator numbers by 50 to 70%, establish strategically-located winter-feeding locations (if we can put people on the moon, we can develop nutritional deer food)....then you could double the hunting opportunities, rather than always trying to determine how to "hunt" without actually having enough game animals TO hunt.
As the ONLY ones paying the expenses of F&G, we need to become more demanding of what will increase opportunities for all....and less controlled by people who are interested in special tags and special hunts.
Within the shadows, go quietly.
As the ONLY ones paying the expenses of F&G, we need to become more demanding of what will increase opportunities for all....and less controlled by people who are interested in special tags and special hunts.
Within the shadows, go quietly.
J
J22sting
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-11 AT 09:41PM (MST)[p]Limiting hunting, regardless of the weapon, does not give you more reproducing doe's. That is the problem in Utah, not enough doe's having babies. If you increase the amount of doe's the buck numbers will follow as well as the opportunity to harvest a quality buck. The only way to increase doe numbers is by decreasing predator kill, winter kill, and auto kill. Decreasing predators is the cheapest and easiest of the three. Just my two cents.
L
LOWCOUNTRY
Guest
Im with ya 100% on that J22sting. More Does, More fawns, More Bucks, More oppertunity. Predator and Auto are all that can be really mitigated to and extent though. Maybe removing more of that damn pinyon and Juniper in the foothillls and planting some sage may help with the white stuff that falls in winter.
E
elkmtngear
Guest
Less predators= less stress on does = more twin fawns. Same thing with elk, studies in wolf-laden areas are proving it out.
Best of Luck,
Jeff
http://www.elkmtngear.com
Best of Luck,
Jeff
http://www.elkmtngear.com
E
elkun
Guest
get rid of the late bow hunt. and it miglht work,.,
S
SMELLYBUCK
Guest
I think j22 is on track.
Over 20 years hunting I've watched tags cut, dates cut, more units grow, and doe tags cut. I've seen the rut hunts discontinued and archery go from either sex to buck only. I've seen out of state hunters disappear. These are changes that trophy hunting groups pushed and I thought they would improve the herd. It hasn't. Its certainly made an environment where guide fees can swell, so mission accomplished.
We've seen great things happen on the Henry Mtns from cutting tags but Thousand Lakes, Browse, and Comanche are still a mystery.
Biologists said fires, range improvement, and cars were the problems. Well we've burned the state over twice, fenced most of I15, and "restored" record amounts of land. We are all still complaining.
If the DWR can figure out the fawn thing, good things will follow; but the reality is, they will continue to make changes as SFW dictates. SFW changes have little to do with increasing fawns and fawn survival and everthing to do with trophy management.
Over 20 years hunting I've watched tags cut, dates cut, more units grow, and doe tags cut. I've seen the rut hunts discontinued and archery go from either sex to buck only. I've seen out of state hunters disappear. These are changes that trophy hunting groups pushed and I thought they would improve the herd. It hasn't. Its certainly made an environment where guide fees can swell, so mission accomplished.
We've seen great things happen on the Henry Mtns from cutting tags but Thousand Lakes, Browse, and Comanche are still a mystery.
Biologists said fires, range improvement, and cars were the problems. Well we've burned the state over twice, fenced most of I15, and "restored" record amounts of land. We are all still complaining.
If the DWR can figure out the fawn thing, good things will follow; but the reality is, they will continue to make changes as SFW dictates. SFW changes have little to do with increasing fawns and fawn survival and everthing to do with trophy management.
BrowningRage
Long Time Member
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- 4,443
I think sportsmen's overall interpretation of "management" needs to be overhauled.
Look at Bushmen's proposal, he leads with how he would "manage" the deer herd, yet right out of the gate he is thinking about managing hunting... He is like myself, when I hear management, my first thoughts are about hunting... I think this needs to change.
J22 brings up some real issues of management. Is it possible to keep deer off the highways..?? I see high fences along most of the high traffic areas, but there are thousands of miles where the deer are still killed frequently. It is a long and difficult battle to overcome road kill. I think we can do it, but it will take years and lots of money.
The winter kill is another concern. We all know that the DWR knows where animals winter mostly. I agree that we should designate these areas as such, and keep people out so the deer can just survive without added stress- from anyone. But, do the deer herd up as well as elk do in these areas? I would like to see a little more dedication to herd preservation in this way.
Finally predation. Let's face it, there are really only 4 predators in Utah, coyotes, lions, bears, and humans. Humans are restricted to bucks only, so we don't do too much to the doe population. Black Bears don't really hunt and kill animals as they are mostly foragers. So that leaves coyotes and lions. Coyotes are already open season all year round. The only way to improve their removal is to legalize things like poison, in fact, we should probably call for their extermination to some extent, and put a higher bounty on their heads... I don't see any reason why lions should have the same protections as LE big game animals. They should be hunted year round by anyone carrying a gun, just like coyotes. Am I missing anything...
This is a cool post. As far as the hunting goes- I like the idea of separated, shortened hunts. Let's face it, the DWR has to have the same revenue (and even higher) for them to approve a plan. I think this could work.
I also have high hopes that smaller units, managed individually, could help different deer populations throughout the state. We will see...
Long post, hope I didn't miss too much...
"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
Look at Bushmen's proposal, he leads with how he would "manage" the deer herd, yet right out of the gate he is thinking about managing hunting... He is like myself, when I hear management, my first thoughts are about hunting... I think this needs to change.
J22 brings up some real issues of management. Is it possible to keep deer off the highways..?? I see high fences along most of the high traffic areas, but there are thousands of miles where the deer are still killed frequently. It is a long and difficult battle to overcome road kill. I think we can do it, but it will take years and lots of money.
The winter kill is another concern. We all know that the DWR knows where animals winter mostly. I agree that we should designate these areas as such, and keep people out so the deer can just survive without added stress- from anyone. But, do the deer herd up as well as elk do in these areas? I would like to see a little more dedication to herd preservation in this way.
Finally predation. Let's face it, there are really only 4 predators in Utah, coyotes, lions, bears, and humans. Humans are restricted to bucks only, so we don't do too much to the doe population. Black Bears don't really hunt and kill animals as they are mostly foragers. So that leaves coyotes and lions. Coyotes are already open season all year round. The only way to improve their removal is to legalize things like poison, in fact, we should probably call for their extermination to some extent, and put a higher bounty on their heads... I don't see any reason why lions should have the same protections as LE big game animals. They should be hunted year round by anyone carrying a gun, just like coyotes. Am I missing anything...
This is a cool post. As far as the hunting goes- I like the idea of separated, shortened hunts. Let's face it, the DWR has to have the same revenue (and even higher) for them to approve a plan. I think this could work.
I also have high hopes that smaller units, managed individually, could help different deer populations throughout the state. We will see...
Long post, hope I didn't miss too much...
"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
you guys have broght a bunch of way good points. the best one is that we need to focus more on managment instead of hunting. the only thing i disagree on is when you said none of the other ideas worked like less tags shorter seasons less doe tag and all that. i agree that auto and predetors are the biggerst problem but i do think with shorter hunts and less tags it will help less tags means less bucks being killed. and shorter hunts give hunters less time to kill bucks. the more bucks that are still running around means more does being bred
P
progono
Guest
Hey guys new to the forums here but love what you guys are saying. I would agree with the predator approach. They can reduce hunting as much as they want but I certainly don't see big buck numbers rapidly rising. One buck can make a lot of babies in one year but if we don't keep the doe population healthy they can't have the babies. I work with a guy that runs dogs and he seems to think there aren't enough cougars. But when I was hunting elk with my bow this year and had one stalking me at less than 20 yards and not run off when I shot over his back I was wishing there were a few less. The amount of deer I see dead on the road around where I live is also a shame. I think we need to be looking at management more as a whole not what is just going to provide big bucks to hang on our wall. If we as hunters would be more willing to eat our tags and not shoot a little deer we would have a greater impact on the quality of big buck out there than the dwr can ever have. In the end its up to us.
Bushmen, you said "the more bucks that are still running around means more does being bred", which is not what the studies have shown. Studies have shown that as little as 6 bucks per 100 doe will get the breeding done. Utah carries at least 2x that number on the lowest end and 3x-4x that number on the higher end of general units. Many General Season units have higher fawning rates than the Limited Entry units. This is where the mindset needs to change-- more bucks does not mean a more productive deer herd. More bucks simply means an easier hunt for those lucky enough to obtain a tag.
As for the original post, I don't think it is an equitable proposal. I will also never understand those who want to place all the hunting burden on the mature segment of the buck herd. Mature bucks are an important component of the herd and these point restrictions want to kill the mature bucks. Point restrictions also places the hunting pressure on the bucks with the most desirable genetics.
As for the original post, I don't think it is an equitable proposal. I will also never understand those who want to place all the hunting burden on the mature segment of the buck herd. Mature bucks are an important component of the herd and these point restrictions want to kill the mature bucks. Point restrictions also places the hunting pressure on the bucks with the most desirable genetics.
bowhunt
Long Time Member
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- 3,191
We cannot grow our Deer herd, so we are doing everything we can to increase the age structure of the Buck populations.
Why are we trying to grow older bucks, and not focused on overal population?
-Small bucks do NOT sell.
Face it we are run by Lobby Groups, Conservation Groups, and Guides. What do they want:
Raise Money, Raise Money, and Sell Tags, respectively.
- We are just grasping at straws, seeing if anything will stick.
Why are we trying to grow older bucks, and not focused on overal population?
-Small bucks do NOT sell.
Face it we are run by Lobby Groups, Conservation Groups, and Guides. What do they want:
Raise Money, Raise Money, and Sell Tags, respectively.
- We are just grasping at straws, seeing if anything will stick.
