SFW fixing our deer herds in 3-5 years?

  • Thread starter TheElitehornhunter
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TheElitehornhunter

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So SFW believes they can fix our deer herds in 3 to 5 years. They have spent the last 18 years trying to fix the problem and have failed miserably. They have raised millions of dollars and our deer herds are still struggling. They have came up with bandaid after bandaid and nothing really good has come from it


So I guess this is SFW's final chance to do something good for our deer herds. If they don't succeed in 3 to 5 years then they shouldn't receive anymore public tags to be sold to the highest bidder.

I hope they can do something good otherwise say goodbye to the SFW and their conservation tags.
 
SFW is the ONLY one actually doing SOMETHING!!!! If all you haters think you have better ideas....step up to the plate and DO SOMETHING!!! At least they are trying...there is no GRAND FIX! But they are doing what they can...and at least they are trying!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-12 AT 05:14PM (MST)[p]So we should give them a free pass because at least they are trying. If they are going to take public tags and sell them then SFW should be held accountable for their actions and so far they have failed in the last 18 years to fix our deer herds.

The problem with SFW is their agenda won't fix our deer herds because they are focusing on bucks which is what option 2 does. It doesn't focus on fawn survival.
 
You are absolutely CORRECT! There should be more accountability...they should be doing more. But what about the Division....they get $62 MILLION dollars a year...from the PUBLIC TAGS AND HUNTERS...what have they done???? What have YOU done???

I understand the hate of the SFW...I am not a member. But I think there are LOTS of issues that they are trying to help! They are the ONLY group putting LOTS of money on the ground. They all agree that the money they have put into habitat is NOT working. So they want to try other things! I have tried to stay out of these threads because there is too much NONSENSE that gets posted...but there is just not enough being done by ANYONE!!!!
 
Go ahead Elite!

Splain how you'd fix the TARDville Deer Herd?

We are giving you the Mic Elite,Yap away!

We are listening!


Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
To all the SFW haters??

I here all your BAWLING day in and day out about how the SFW has been doing the Mule Deer wrong for 18 YEARS!!!

Well I would like to here you hater's ideas I havn't heard one yet, OH wait yes I have we need to up the # OF BUCK TAGS THAT WILL HELP.

Come on lets here the hater's ideas??????????????????????
 
Haters I would hate to see what the deer herd would look like now if SFW hadn't come along 18 YEARS ago.

Haters and the DWR would still have 250,000 buck tags a year with only TWO BUCKS IN THE STATE TO HUNT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
So if SFW fails 5 years from now then will you still continue to support SFW and allow them to keep selling public tags?

I hope they can finally do something good for our deer herds for the sake of the deer, but not to stroke their egos.
 
How does colorado do it?

Do they have a S.F.W. fixing there deer herds?

They are still asking for ideas from us.
For all the millions of dollers they have got i think they could have atleast hired one smart ####### insted of a bunch of idiot that still need 'ARE' ideas!







hornkiller.jpg
 
I love watching all these Internet hero's talking up a storm here...but when it comes to actually doing something....they complain that people are asking for "OUR" ideas!!!

All I hear about is do something...do something...do something....but NO ONE knows what to do!!! Do I have the answer....hell no...but I am glad that someone is actually trying to get the answers and spending money to do so. I could really give a crap who it is...SFW, MDF, RMEF, SCI, I dont really care...but I do care that at least people are trying and not coming here to complain about how bad they don't listen to "OUR" ideas!
 
SFW doesn't have any good ideas that is why they haven't been able to fix our deer herds in the last 18 years.

Hunters whine because they don't see a lot of bucks while out road hunting. They wish General Season units were more like the Bookcliffs when they don't understand that in order for the hunt be more like the Bookcliffs then there needs to be major tag reductions and waiting periods. Then they will whine about waiting periods.

Does the DWR haters understand the difference between General Season units and LE units? I guess many are sick and tired of waiting to draw a LE tag and driving their lazy ass around on a 4wheeler where little bucks can be found instead of getting off the roads and finding mature bucks.

I have no problem finding and killing mature bucks on public lands every year
 
Come on hornkiller

I here a lot of stuff spewed out of your mouth, but not one idea on how to fix the problem.

LETS HERE IT HORN???????????????????????
 
>SFW doesn't have any good ideas
>that is why they haven't
>been able to fix our
>deer herds in the last
>18 years.
>
>Hunters whine because they don't see
>a lot of bucks while
>out road hunting. They wish
>General Season units were more
>like the Bookcliffs when they
>don't understand that in order
>for the hunt be more
>like the Bookcliffs then there
>needs to be major tag
>reductions and waiting periods. Then
>they will whine about waiting
>periods.
>
>Does the DWR haters understand the
>difference between General Season units
>and LE units? I guess
>many are sick and tired
>of waiting to draw a
>LE tag and driving their
>lazy ass around on a
>4wheeler where little bucks can
>be found instead of getting
>off the roads and finding
>mature bucks.
>
>I have no problem finding and
>killing mature bucks on public
>lands every year

18 Years huh Elite?

40 Years of Poor Management of the TARDville Deer Herd,who you blaming for the other 22 years Elite?




Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
Another quality post by Elite full of information!!

Since you are the best deer hunter and kill big bucks every year lets up the tags by 100,000.
 
I never said we should raise the tags up 100,000, but I know if we gave more tags to primative weapons then we could issue more tags.

Hunters are only focused on the number of bucks they see in the field because we hunt BUCKS. We forget that without high fawn survival rates then we cannot have many bucks that we want to hunt.

Every year it's the same old lame ass excuses they drive around in their trucks ###### the DWR we can find bucks ##### the DWR and SFW we can find bucks meanwhile eating a dozen donuts and 20 pounds over weight.

I realize people like Bessy can't hike anymore so he ain't as good as he once was.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-12 AT 06:30PM (MST)[p]Then we have people like goofy old richfield boy himself Fishlake the elk pisscutter slayer...."At least SFW is trying no matter how much they fail and I will go down the road to failure with them because them SFW boys know a lot about deer management" We might get in right in 50 years, but if not keep sending your money because we could spend it for you on more worthless bandaids.
 
>I never said we should raise
>the tags up 100,000, but
>I know if we gave
>more tags to primative weapons
>then we could issue more
>tags.
>
>Hunters are only focused on the
>number of bucks they see
>in the field because we
>hunt BUCKS. We forget that
>without high fawn survival rates
>then we cannot have many
>bucks that we want to
>hunt.
>
>Every year it's the same old
>lame ass excuses they drive
>around in their trucks ######
>the DWR we can find
>bucks ##### the DWR and
>SFW we can find bucks
>meanwhile eating a dozen donuts
>and 20 pounds over weight.
>
>
>I realize people like Bessy can't
>hike anymore so he ain't
>as good as he once
>was.

You're right Elite!

I only Hiked to the North Slope from the South Slope,must not be getting back in far enough?

I'll admit,I ain't as good as I once was,but where I once seen a Buck or two there isn't even a Track now,think my odds would be better if they were there to see/hunt?




Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
>
>Then we have people like goofy
>old richfield boy himself Fishlake
>the elk pisscutter slayer...."At least
>SFW is trying no matter
>how much they fail and
>I will go down the
>road to failure with them
>because them SFW boys know
>a lot about deer management"
>We might get in right
>in 50 years, but if
>not keep sending your money
>because we could spend it
>for you on more worthless
>bandaids.

It is really too bad that not everyone is as "elite" a hunter as you are!! Then we would not have to do anything for the herds...If everyone had your super ideas then we would not have to have any orgs...hell...why dont you just run the whole DWR. All I do is see you post how you are the greatest hunter ever born and how everyone else is goofy..old...slow..road hunter..but yet you give NO ideas on what should actually be done! If you are so F*($ smart...you fix the problem...

I am NOT a member of SFW..I do not have a problem though with someone at least having the passion to ACT rather then come on here and be an internet tough guy!!!
 
I think we should give more public tags to SFW to sell at auctions. I know this is the real reason we still have deer to hunt in this state...... Now seriously, I don't think most people have a problem with SFW trying to improve the deer herds. That is a very good thing. It is how they are going about it. Using public tags to bring in cash without accountability or transparency and without measurable results that all of us haters can see. I would support SFW if it wasn't for the fact that they are using a public resource to make money and I personally haven't seen anything that they have done make a big difference to our deer herds. If I am wrong, please enlighten me.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-12 AT 06:49PM (MST)[p]I asked ONE question and not one of you have answered it.
 
I have a question for you elite, and I am not trying to be a smartazz, if your hunting gets worse (yes I know you kill mature bucks every year) over the next five years will you stop putting your money into DWR by stopping your purchase of tags?

My point is you say SFW should have the answers after 18 years and doesn't need a dime more until they fix things but you are not holding DWR to the same standard and they have been doing it for longer as pointed out by Bessie above.

I kind of like the fact they are looking for input. Sometimes the simplest remedies are overlooked by experts who often over think an issue and then the answer is given by a new idea of less than epic proportions.

I don't belong to SFW and don't live in Utah and have not hunted there and may never hunt there but that doesn't mean I don't care about what's going on there, I think it is important to find a solution in Utah and use that to help with mule deer herds in other places as well.

Bill

Kill the buck that makes YOU happy!
 
>I think we should give more
>public tags to SFW to
>sell at auctions. I know
>this is the real reason
>we still have deer to
>hunt in this state...... Now
>seriously, I don't think most
>people have a problem with
>SFW trying to improve the
>deer herds. That is a
>very good thing. It
>is how they are going
>about it. Using public
>tags to bring in cash
>without accountability or transparency and
>without measurable results that all
>of us haters can see.
>I would support SFW if
>it wasn't for the fact
>that they are using a
>public resource to make money
>and I personally haven't seen
>anything that they have done
>make a big difference to
>our deer herds. If
>I am wrong, please enlighten
>me.

Ok.....what about the $62 Million budget that the DWR has every year....that all comes from PUBLIC money...from selling PUBLIC tags...and what have they done??? Why are they any different than SFW?? Again.....I AM NOT a member of SFW and I am NOT saying that they are going to save the deer herds! I just want full disclosure from EVERYONE! They have not done enough..DWR has not done enough...not one damn one of us has done enough. So.....what is the answer????? I wish I knew...or I wish I was as smart as some of those on this forum that seem to know it all...but they just dont want to share it seems!

There is NO QUICK fix in my opinion.
 
I don't need to give SFW my ideas because I have already seen the SFW circus show. I have seen SFW dodge a lot of my questions because they ain't smart enough to fix the issue because they're more driven by money.

Many top SFW guys are nothing more than a men full of hot air. They can make you feel really good, but then you find out that they are two face liars. I use to support SFW fully, but not anymore.
 
I've said it 1000's of times!

Gonna say it one more time!

Lots of TARDS like Elite Blaming one thing & one thing only for Piss Poor Deer herds!

When in Reality there are 20+ reasons why the TARDville Herd is suffering!

Yes Elite,it's a combination of reasons why,not just the SFW!






Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
I don't need to give SFW my ideas because I have already seen the SFW circus show. I have seen SFW dodge a lot of my questions because they ain't smart enough to fix the issue because they're more driven by money.
Many top SFW guys are nothing more than a men full of hot air. They can make you feel really good, but then you find out that they are two face liars. I use to support SFW fully, but not anymore.
 
Earth to Bessy I realize that deer are struggling because of 20 plus issues which I have stressed over the years, but what does SFW focus on??????

BUCK harvest which is probably #20 on the list while totally ignoring #1 to 19. Hunters aren't the reason our deer herds are struggling because LE units don't have great numbers either.
 
Are you serious Elite.....that is the WHOLE reason for the new meetings for NEW ideas. They are NOT just focusing on just Ratios...they want IDEAS to change. Predator...habitat...ratio..it is all the same thing!! The herd needs HELP!!! What your dumb ass does not realize is that someone is TRYING!

Nevermind...trying to reason with you is more frustrating that talking to my 5 year old...I should have just stayed out like I normally do!
 
The DWR have made a lot of stupid mistakes over the years. They aren't perfect, but if you understand the RAC and Wildlife Board process then you will understand that the DWR doesn't have the final say so how can place a lot of blame on them when their hands on tied on a lot of issues. SFW has been influencing the wildlife board for years.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-12 AT 07:28PM (MST)[p]hahahaha this is comical. Fishlake the pisscutter elk slayer why would I want to waste my time showing up to the same old circus show and watch them blow more smoke up people's asses. Don't be a retarded koolaid drinker like I was at one time.

Fishlake these NEW idea meetings aren't anything NEW. It's the same old same SFW trying to build their memberships while spread LIES to those drinking in the koolaid.

We didn't even allow the last 5 year plan to work before we decided to jack up the whole #### system.

As long as SFW keeps taking a public resource and pimping it's tags without no accoutability then you count out 18 more years of failure from them.
 
So according to their last lame ass meeting then they are talking about more coyote control. I guess it ONLY took 18 long years to FINALLY figure out that coyotes eat a lot of fawns. SFW are smart fellows hahaha.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-12 AT 08:02PM (MST)[p]Tikka your an idiot! Probley going to tell you that alot cause you really are!

Second People have gave them every ###### idea under the sun for years and nothing changes!!

3rd when you have the head of S.F.W. as a bourd member what do you think is going to happen? Tell me tikka since you want everybodys plan lets hear your brilliant ideas!

They aint doing a dam thing!
One of there big statments was
"WERE GOING TO KEEP WOLVES OUT OF UT"
Looking like there going to fail missrabley at that to but just keep filling there pockets and telling them your idies talk till your blue in the face IT WONT CHANGE A DAM THING!!!!




hornkiller.jpg
 
I will be the third to ask (by my count but may have missed another or two) let's hear your fix Elite!?

I don't expect an answer though because you didn't answer it from the others who asked and you didn't answer my last question so...........

So they influence the board? They concentrate on lowering harvest and got it done and that is one of your 20 problems now they are working on more coyote control which is another of your 20 and DWR gets a pass because their hands are tied by the board who is only "influenced by" SFW.

My guess is the can get more done than any fundraising group like SFW could ever be expected to do.

I feel like SFW pizzed in your Cheerios in some way at some point and now even if they put 200" bucks on every hill in UT you wouldn't be happy and that's your business but without a proposal of your own you just sound like your a bitter hater and nothing more.

Bill

Kill the buck that makes YOU happy!
 
Hornhunter everything is ok because at least they are trying. Imagine if a CEO of a business was trying and he never succeed after 18 years. The business would say thanks for trying but don't let the door hit you on the way out. If SFW was doing fund raisers on their own without the help of the public tags then I couldn't complain about their trying, but when they are selling our public tags and profitting off of them then I hold them accoutable for their trying. They shouldn't receive more tags to sell.
 
Bill, my good friend, I use to support SFW many moons ago until I seen SFW for what they really are. I have also been an employee of the DWR and I saw things from that point of view too. I don't work for the DWR anymore.

Bill, why should I share my ideas on how to fix our deer herds on the MM forum? None of you are the right people to fix the issue even if I listed them.

I have blamed the DWR on a lot of issues and we have had a lot of discussions in the office when I worked there. I made my opinions heard. I have also seen SFW at work with the wildlife board and been in meetings with them.

What makes me upset and I don't know why you give them a free pass is the fact that they don't have any accountability. They have been asked where the EXPO money has been spent and they dodge the question. Their track records for funds isn't the greatest. They focus more on lining their pockets with money as Troy Justensen said " SFW is a business"
 
Thanks for the response Elite!

I now understand your view a little better. I think there should be accountability as well and remember a big thread here a while back about just that and there was probably more than one,LOL.

The place I would disagree with you is that I think that MM is the perfect place to discuss ideas on how to improve the herd even though it may do no good it can't hurt and it will be picked apart which will improve it and your argument to support it if you ever get the chance to propose it to the right ears!

Bill

Kill the buck that makes YOU happy!
 
Alot of things said about what SFW has not done to help deer heards. But what about things they have done? Just a few come to mind, started the dedicated hunter, maybe not a big thing to some people, but alot of projects have been completed, and sure it has saved some bucks over the years. Helped cap the tag numbers at 97,000, couldn't even imagine our deer heards with 200,000 plus hunters still on the hill. Passed prop. 5 believe it or not the anti hunters where hot on our heels to ban hunting bears with hound and bait. If we lost those options of hunting bears the population would explode. And fawn survival percentage would be way low. Just my two cents.
 
I don't fear PETA and other anti-hunter groups because they haven't made stupid proposals recently like SFW has. SFW has reduced hunting opportunity with Option WTF than PETA could ever dream of doing.

It's true that SFW has done a lot of good things, but we still cannot ignore the bad things. So I guess where do we draw the line. If a person does good and bad things can we say he's a good person?
 
So......did creating the Dedicated Hunter program create more opportunity or less. SFW was the group that convinced the Big Game Board (now the Wildlife Board) to implement the DH program.

More opportunity or less.

DC
 
I know SFW ain't perfect, but so much emphasize is placed on what the are not doing, I think we need to look at what they have done. As others as stated the DIvision should receive much of the blame. At this point no matter what SFW does, in someone's eyes they will be the bad guy.
 
2lumpy dumpy where do you draw the line between the good and bad? I have no trust and faith in SFW. I have sat in meetings with Don Peay and listened to his agenda. He is full of a lot of hot air.

Remember when he said if you just want to hunt elk then just go to Colorado? What kind of message does that send to the public?
 
>So......did creating the Dedicated Hunter program
>create more opportunity or less.
> SFW was the group
>that convinced the Big Game
>Board (now the Wildlife Board)
>to implement the DH program.
>
>
>More opportunity or less.
>
>DC

No doubt it created more opportunity. But also helped with projects to help deer heards.
 
The DWR will be the bad guy also even when the DWR has done a lot of great things. I don't see the DWR pimping tags. Don Peay makes more money than any of the DWR officials. I don't see the DWR lining their pockets to get rich off of public tags.
 
I sat two rows in front of you, took notes too, Never heard Don say, " if you just want to hunt elk then just go to Colorado". I could have missed it. You right sure that's what he said, if so, what was the context associated with the comment?

Dedicated hunter, more opportunity or less?

DC
 
No where did I say if the dwr did great things that they will be bad guys, probably true tho, can't satisfy everyone. But that's my point with SFW. As far as the DWR pimping tags I'm sure a certain percent of all the tags sold by SFW, that the division gets a percent, or they wouldn't be so willing to give the tags to SFW.
 
You ask "where do you draw the line between good and bad".

Then you say, "The DWR will be the bad guy also even when the DWR has done a lot of great things."

So......"where do you draw the line between good and bad"?


You say, "I don't see the DWR pimping tags."

So......."selling the deer tags for DWR review, regardless of the condition of the deer numbers isn't pimping".

You say SFW, "are two faced liar".

So.........did you or have any other DWR employee ever misrepresent the truth, is that lying? Is every word that come from you or your former employer absolutely truthful?

Would you say, it's inappropriate to misrepresent the truth or allow people to believe something you know is untruthful?

SFW has no right to lie, nor does anyone else, yes?

DC
 
As it seems that this topic is stagnant and ready to really begin the debate/dialog on actual ideas to help the deer populations and still maintain a high level of suitability for the hunters I will throw a few out there. I'm sure that after this is done you will all hate a part of me equally. And just in case you don't make it fully through this post, on account of how many words are in it, let me thank you now for your opinions.

Let's just cut right to the chase. Reducing the units to 30 instead of 5 was a start, but in reality they should have been reduced to something more like 70 or 80 and that's being conservative. If you are going to make the statement that you are managing tags based on buck to doe ratios then at least have the common decency to reduce the size of the area you are accounting for to a serviceable number! Examples - ANY of the LE or Premium LE units. They boast buck to doe ratios of 40 to 50 per 100 and 50 to 60 for the Premium LE units. Now this is based on the belief that there is something to the notion that does will produce more female offspring if the buck count is above a certain percentage, and nothing more. And while we are at it, why does every piece of land in the state have to be a part of the hunt boundaries? That brings me to another point (don't stop reading yet, this will really get people stirring).

If you legally own land that is not within a zoned city or non-firearm discharge ordinance then you can purchase a maximum of two tags per year for your land at the same price as a CWMU permit. These tags are registered to WHOMEVER YOU WANT TO at the time of purchase. Some people own an acre, some own a thousand. I DON'T CARE! If you own land and you want to hunt it every year then please do so. Some caveats here though. You cannot transfer/sell/party hunt your tags. You also cannot allow any other tag holders to hunt on your land, PERIOD. Let's be real about this some people have owned land forever, in some really prime hunting grounds, and they want to hunt it! Honestly it's not going to make a huge difference. As long as we are talking about limiting tags let me stay on that topic.

REDUCE THE NUMBER OF PERMITS, PERIOD! Hunt success is 24% according to the 2010 report. Look at the success rate on the LE units alone, the average is 85%. Now I don't think that you have to limit tags by enough to see that high of a success rate, 65% would suffice, but I do think that the rate is low because the units are too big and there are a ton of hunters crammed in to small areas of these large units. If you reduce the area size and have a manageable number of animals you can then accurately manage the amount of hunters in that area and maintain your acceptable kill losses, oh and maintain your buck to doe ratios. But that's not enough.

If the unit has a habitable population below 75% of its DESIRED amount, THEN IT'S NOT OPEN FOR HUNTING regardless of ratio! And then the unit will only be issued enough tags to sustain a level greater than 70% of the desired population. There should also be some limiting factors per unit based on percentage of surviving fawns and a charted percentage of population growth of no less than 5% per year. This will both take into account the unique characteristics of that habitat and the predator issues surrounding it. Which bring me to my next point.

Attempt in some way to manage the predators and keep counts of them at the SAME TIME AS managing deer herd populations. This stuff isn't rocket science is it? Wildlife biologists have some pretty substantial evidence on how many of what species of predator will reduce the surrounding game (it's food) numbers by annually. And in my humble opinion, HUNT THEM UNTIL BOTH THEY AND THE DEER ARE MANAGED! Speaking of hunting, isn't that what we all really want to do?

Increase the amount of hunting days in the field, OH NO HE DIDN'T JUST SAY THAT, Oh yes he did. If you've responsibly issued tags based on manageable loss numbers then why not? Also, if you don't draw a tag, but still want to share in the experience of hunting annually BUY A CAMERA AND GO ANYWAY! Or maybe post on MM that you are a lonely white male in search of high adventure with copper, brass and gunpowder, but you regrettably didn't tag out this year so you are willing to mope along on someone's hunt just for the pleasure of putting a smile on their face. Not trying to put a guide out of work here, but it is true that many people get more satisfaction through helping others. There are a bunch of hunters, myself included, who never really learned the art of hunting and would relish the opportunity to!

Keep the CWMU's if they are willing. Landowner can't hunt it though. It's either his two tags or the state's managed tag number, sorry. Also, reduce the price to that of the general tags. Don't worry my next point will make up the difference in the money.

If you would like the opportunity to receive an extra bonus point every year until you've reached 10 points or more then listen up. (My ignorance will show through here, let me apologize in advance). If you put in for an LE unit AND a General tag you have the option to earn an extra bonus point for an extra fee. Three ways to do it, first if you want to earn an extra bonus point toward a General unit, but not have the annoying inconvenience of losing your LE preference points when you draw out then check the box on the left, and pay an extra $10. If you would like the opportunity to receive an extra bonus point for an LE unit AND a general unit, which will reset your points to zero if you draw out either, then check the box in the middle and pay an extra $20. And lastly if you would like to purchase that extra bonus point for an LE unit but not lose your total points towards the General then check the box on the right and pay an extra $100. That's right a hundred bucks, what's it worth to you? Some caveats here though, you can put in for the General hunt the year after you drew out your LE but you cannot put in for another LE hunt for 2 years. Who am I kidding though, if they adopted the 80 unit plan they would all be LE's (GASP).

Okay, so that last part was just silliness and it was intended. Please feel free to pick and prod and debate or just say intentionally rude and ignorant things. This is just the start of my idea list and I can think of many many more. The problem as I see it is everybody wants to implement ONE thing and call it the solution, when as I recall it takes five things to create a habitat, why wouldn't it take at least that to maintain the animals who live in it?
 
Risingsun reading that was likely the most stupid waste of time I've ever invested. Where in hell did you come from, the dark side of the moon?

Okay, now that I've provided what you wanted in the way of a negative response, so's you can feel like your part of the family, let me tell you what I really think.

You are thinking outside the box. That is great. I can't say, on your limited discussion of your ideas that I agree with every thing your proposing. However, your most important comment may be:

"This is just the start of my idea list and I can think of many many more."

I couldn't support that comment more if I put a big old red check mark on your post. There are literally hundreds of ways we could grow more mule deer. Nearly every MM that posts here, including those that dislike each other, could, if given free rain, grow more deer and improve hunting opportunity.

Here is the problem, individual ideas never get legs because every mule deer management plan, regardless of how wise, scientific, social, political or otherwise will be different than what some group (large or small) support. Regardless of how good your ideas are, as an individual, the reality, unfortunately, is, you can never get any traction and can never get anyone that can actually make a decision to even hear you fully express your suggestions, much less give you the time to actually develop a comprehensive management plan.

So what can you do other than just throw your hands in the air, kick the dog in the guts then snarl at your wife and kids?

You have no chance as an individual, but as a part of a large group, you might get a listening ear, if your ideas are good enough, safe, reasonable, etc., etc. Once you have the group committed, you now begin sharing the vision with others because your "group" is more influential than you are as an individual. It takes time and it takes effort and a willingness to keep the vision alive over long periods of time.

Now any group will have members that disagree on part of the plan, some will quite and work against the group and some will support the group and it's ideas even though they disagree with some of what the group has decided to do. Some folk simply can not tolerate any difference of opinion or system process. Others of the group can live and even work aggressively within the group and still have conflict with some of the ideas and some processes.

There are not many choices here in Utah when it comes to wildlife management groups but there are a few. Whether you can see yourself involved with SFW or with one of the other groups, if you're really serious about your ideas you need to become an active member of some large group and stay active. You'll never get all you'd like but if you ever expect to have a voice that causes change you should consider getting heavily involved with one of these groups.

Going it alone has never seemed to work in this process. You will get all the time you want here on MM to espouse your ideas but where it really matters and the only place it really matters is in the RAC/Wildlife Board process and you will get 2 minutes, yes, two whole minutes and nothing more to lay our your plan to these decision makers. As a single individual, what chance do you or does anyone else have, regardless of how great their ideas are, given 2 minutes?

I like SFW, I'll like to see all sportsmen get involve with them, but if that don't fit your saddle then sign up with someone else and start pressing your ideas to them, because, as much fun as the MM forum is, it ain't going to get you too far without big time help.

This State system is old, practiced, skilled, entrenched, they fight hard and they will get up and whack you back when they get punched in the mouth. Believe me, many, many of the folks here have ties to the agency, either directly, socially, of philosophically. There are current employees, old employees, family members of employees, related to employees, close friends of employees, business connections of the agency, etc, etc. They are going to defend the status quo regardless of what the status quo is, or so it seems from their responses.

By the way, your ideas aren't stupid, it's never a waste of my time to consider other people's ideas.

DC
 
risingsun said!

"""Increase the amount of hunting days in the field"""

Ya!

That's what the TARDville Big Game Herds need is a little more pressure on them!

40 years & countin ......................!

The Evolution of Deer Hunting in TARDville,GAWD ain't it Grand!




Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
Thanks 2Lumpy, I understand the political arena and agree that MM is just a dumping ground for the most part. Perhaps I was thinking that one of you who are already affiliated with the larger groups could take some ideas from those willing to put them out there and pool them to better formulate a proposal for special interests. I myself am not willing to get that involved at this point in time. And let me qualify that by saying I have hunted deer in Utah for four years and that was in 92-95. I moved away in 2000 and have lived here for two years now (And haven't applied for a deer hunt). My focus these days is on Elk, just because. My only other deer hunting experience is for whitetail in Texas, and I did well but it's kind of hard not to when you are on a designated lease and there isn't a bunch of public pressure. Let me also say that I have been involved in the DWR from a young age, everything from Hunter Education instructor at 12 years old to conservation and service projects. Honestly in the grand scheme of things, I've done nothing noticable in the big picture.
 
It goes along with less tags and increased success rates, stay with me here. And thanks for reading it, I realize I forgot the gratuitous photo and apologize profusely.
 
Seems like we are all frustrated with the deer herd, buck to doe ratio included. They say don't blame the DWR and don't blame SFW.

We the common hunter can only give suggestions because we do not have the power or authority to make decisions. I do know this, that I have much more faith in what the everyday hunter is telling me about the deer population than I do the DWR.

I remember when the push for the 30 units came into play to make it possible to more accurately monitor deer population. Can you guess who was against it and with their power point presentation tried to persuade us to vote against it, oh yes it was the head of the DWR. When I talk about the DWR it is the high rank folks not our good friends who are out in the field each day, I think they understand just as we do what kind of shape things are in.

The hunters scream not to have doe hunts, but the big boys in the office continue to have them and claim 300,000 deer in Utah. Why would you have any kind of a doe hunt to a declining population, oh I do remember them saying that it does not matter how many hunters their are, it will not decline the herd. Is that not the most funny statement you have ever heard. You give people 200 doe tags, they drive out into a field and shoot 200 doe, but yet that does not decline the deer herd. I must have not taken the right kind of math.

So for suggestions, of which I cannot control, I feel we should go to even smaller units to be able to manage buck to doe ratio even better. Nevada does a nice job of this. If only 5 tags should be given to an area then so be it in order help the problem. If a particular area needs to be shut down, then do it to save our herd. If coyote killing needs to happen, lets do it. If we need to make one small unit of the state open for all those who want to hook on to their trailer once a year and have a hunting experience, then lets give them a unit for that maybe little Sahara unit would be good.

Bottom line is the hunters know there are several problems that need to be fixed and we are willing to help fix them, but will the top dogs so to speak step up and admit what we know and do what it takes to turn the population around.
 
Clearly your an person of integrity. I'll bet your satisfied with what you see when you look in the mirror.

I understand where your coming from, over the years I have just developed a really appreciation for mule deer and have this great desire to help them survive in our world. What's more I'm a hunter and my favorite animal to hunt is mule deer, so I'm caught up to my ears in this never ending battle to keep them viable.

Your comment: "My focus these days is on Elk," really struck a cord with me this morning.

A few months ago, someone, on one of these wildlife forums ask the question, "Which to you prefer to hunt more, elk or mule deer?"

At first I was surprised and saddened by the answers to that question.

30 years ago, I believe there would be have an overwhelming number of sportsmen say they prefer to hunt deer. But that is no longer the case, according to the responses to the question. I can't recall the exact numbers but it seems like over 60% said they preferred to hunt elk.

As I considered the results of the question I started to come up with some reasons why today's sportsmen would prefer elk over deer.

1. Elk have been thriving, mule deer have been declining.

2. Our young people see more elk than the do deer now days.

3. If your a meat eater or a horn hunter, elk provide more of both.

4. We have less hostility over elk because opportunity is increasing rather than decreasing.

5. When people hunt elk today, they expect to have a good hunt, with a good likelyhood they will harvest an animal they are proud of, be it a cow, a yearling or a mature bull.

6. Most people that deer hunt today don't have that expectation. In fact they will now tell you, it's just getting the chance to be out there that motivates them, not the harvest.

7. Our younger hunters see elk and the see a winner, they see deer and they see a looser and we reinforce that by constantly fighting over mule deer management.

Thanks for you comments and your concerns.

Long live mule deer and our outdoor lifestyle.

DC
 
2Lumpy, I think that my focus on elk is a couple of things. One is total return on investment. You are right I am a meat eater, and you definitely get more meat with an elk than a deer. Secondly, my wife and kids don't like venison therefore it becomes chili meat and party favors. I do however plan on putting in for the deer hunt this year, but I'm constrained to one unit and that's also the unit I have always wanted to hunt in. I've probably put more miles on my boots in that unit just messing around than most people will put in hunting in a lifetime. That brings me to another reason, I enjoy getting out there during my hunt. Way out there, 6+ miles or so and I hear that this is where the elk hunting begins. I also have a fascination with the species and look forward to the day I finally tag one. Last year was my first year hunting elk and although I didn't tag one, or see a bull during the season for that matter, I can empathize with those that just want to get out into the field. I think that opportunity is definitely a factor here. As I said in another post being able to buy the tag basically over-the-counter was a deciding factor. I also invited two out-of-state hunters with me and they anted up the $388 a piece for the tags (not to mention the $80 for the combo license) and still had a better experience then trying to hunt in their home states. Alas though, I will contest the notion that elk hunting is better as there is a much higher success rate associated with deer hunting in Utah than elk hunting, 13 percent for elk and 25 percent for deer respectably. If the deer tags were ever as unpopular as the elk tags I think you would see another shift. I do agree that it is a turnoff to hear and see the fight for mule deer management. And equally the fight in the field for space to hunt. Where I elk hunted I contended with some guides and several buck/bull combo holders. However, 91% of the people I encountered were on horseback and that was only about a dozen. I will not hunt the area I was in again, but good luck to any who decide to. I will give you all the information I have!

Thanks for your willingness to serve and help OUR wildlife, whatever the species may be.
 
I don't have a dog in this fight as I'm from Wyoming.However,I have hunted deer in Utah,and probably will again.For those of you who don't know,mule deer as a species are declining in virtually all of thier respective ranges,including Wyoming.For a myriad of reasons.Despite the efforts of SFW,MDF,and other orgs.Finger pointing is easy to do.What's not so easy is being a part of the solution.Arm chair biology is a growing field(I know-I am one too!),and doesn't require a degree.I still haven't heard a response from Elite or HK on what they would do for solutions to this dilemma.Elite evades the question and uses the name-calling technique to take the pressure off of himself,while HK just throws in the occasional one-liner.My question is this:what do you guys do to help?Elite says SFW hasn't done any good in 18 years.Has anyone??In any state?While Colorado deer pops seem to be the best around,they also have the best habitat of any state,yet thier numbers are also down.Mule deer are in a critical state throughout the west.Shouldn't WE ALL be doing something to try and help them?If at first you don't succeed,shouldn't you try again?Maybe something else??Doesn't that make sense?And no-I do not belong to SFW.One thing I know for sure,though.If you value your deer hunting in the west,you need to DO SOMETHING!If you are not part of the solution,you are PART OF THE PROBLEM.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-12 AT 12:25PM (MST)[p]We should do all we can for mule deer, but don't expect a miracle, the habitat is changing in a scale we can't do much about, the weather could be good it could be bad. I say do what we can, predators, rangeland projects and everything else but its far harder to manipulate nature to our wishes than we realize. I used to love hunting mule deer more than anything, but because the hunting quality has declined, I too concentrate on elk more just because thats where the opportunity is , its the good old days of elk hunting now, and the good old days of deer hunting are in the past. In my opinion the management mistake Utah makes is in the quality department, In Nevada the kids under 17 have their own quotas with lots of opportunity available, and us seasoned hunters have it tougher, if we want to hunt every year it might have to be archery or with a muzzy tag and in an earlier season or a tougher area, a challenge, but thats how is needs to be in order to maintain quality. In Utah they give the most seasoned hard core hunters the best opportunity, and whats ends up being left is usually crowded and usually not much to get excited about.
 
I agree piper they told us they cut around 7,000 tags this year to help ease next year, did you notice any less hunters? Looked like more to me, so again I wonder are the right guys who can help us really on board to help the problem or are they just giving us lip service. How would we ever know how many tags are actually cut. Until they are ready to make serious changes the decline will continue.
 
Piper is also from Wy,but he also sees the decline in mule deer across the west.Kinda sounds like you are ready to throw in the towel on mulies,piper!I can see no reason to do that.I think mule deer declines can be turned around,but it's not going to happen overnight,and it's not going to happen with APATHETIC sportsmen(not saying you are!).It's too bad that 90% of us do nothing but complain on MM,while expecting things to get better.Anyone who thinks these things don't require lots of money is living in the past.Until we quit using the term "they need to do this" or "they need to do that",and replace it with "WE need to do this or that", mule deer are in for a dismal future.
 
I am usually an optimistic guy, but on this issue the cards are stacked against the mule deer. I have hunted deer in Utah for 40 plus years and have seen the good the bad and the ugly in terms of muley herd health. A few of you will remember a few tough years in the early to mid 70's. Drought and overharvest of bucks plus multiple tags for does cut into overall numbers significantly. DWR eliminated the extra tag for archery hunters and cut out late season buck hunts. The herd rebounded and was doing good until a few tough winters knocked populations back down. [83-84 and again in the early 90s] Many areas cut back on grazing permits or retired them pemanantly, this led to conditions more suited for elk than deer. Urbanization especially on the wasatch front gobbled up critical winter range or at least made it off limits to most hunting. 1080 was outlawed as has been mentioned. Bear and Cougar tags were over the counter and coyotes were hunted hard cause fur prices were much better or at least more profitable. Population growth[human]has tripled. technology and access has advanced expotentially and leisure time is readily available to most hunters, increasing the time available to hunt [pressure] deer.IMO the die has been cast and we can only hope to maintain what is left of the resource. Personally I am more of an opportunist and pefer to be able to hunt as often as I possibly can..I chose to hunt with my bow when it became a choose your weapon mandate several years ago. I respect that not all people want to hunt with the more primitive weapons although I believe that is certainly an option that would allow for more opportunity. I would hope that my yearly contributions to the DWR in app. fees, hunting permits, and membership in a couple of conservation groups qualify me as part of the solution. I am hopeful that the current trend can be stabilized and the current decline of the muleys may be reversed. I am also a realist and know it will never be as good as I have seen it in the past.
 
NICE!!! Finally some good sound ideas!! This is what this forum should be about. Guys throwing out ideas..some good, some bad. But I think we are all concerned of the current situation. Is there a quick fix....NO! Is there ONE org that is gonna outlast them all...prob not. But I applaud those that are TRYING! I dont think that any one person or org can be the all cure all and fix, but those willing to stay involved and active about trying new things and helping are OK in my book!
 

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