SFW Meeting Stuff

2lumpy

2lumpy

Long Time Member
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Hope we'll soon get some information from those attending the Springville SFW meeting. More opportunity to hear other beliefs about how mule deer can be helped. These discussions are valuable right now because the State Legislation process is about to begin. Mule deer recovery can and should be a part of that process. Allowing local legislators to hear our concerns and our observations will help them make better decisions when it's time to vote on some of these matters.

Another discussion that came up in the SFW Richfield meeting last night was the number of fawns that had survived on the Monroe unit. As I recall the DWR biologist said that last year it was 20 fawns per 100 does, this year 38 per 100. He said the current fawn recruitment rate would not allow the herd to grow. He said he believed more coyote control and more habitat improvement would help mule deer recovery.

Regarding SFW's success or failure over the last 18 years.......I have personally told SFW that our deer herd numbers were declining and what was being done was not helping. I've been on the end of their nose every this since 1994. I believe no one has told Don, to his face, more times in the last 18 years than I have. I have hounded him worse than anyone I know of, including the folks who are on here, daily, bitching about SFW for every thing from the price of women's hat pins to oil production in Iran. The difference is, I do it do to his face, one on one, not behind a internet forum alias. When I tell him what I believe, I do it eye to eye. Again, I've told him over and over that our deer numbers are going down.....down......down.

Here is what I believe, based on his behavior and his response to my bitching for the last 18 years. HE DIDN'T BELIEVE ME! He believed the professionals, he believed their numbers, he believed the agreements that it was a warm fall, a wet fall, a dry fall, full moon, he believed the reseeds were working, he believed those folks that shot big bucks every year, he believed the guys that said it was just the lazy road hunters that couldn't find deer, he believed the dedicated hunter program would improve ratios both buck and fawn ratios, he believed the biologists he believed the directors, he believed the guys who said they were seeing tons of bucks and huge herds of does and he believe the regional averaging computer calculations. In fact he trusted the system and he believed deer herds were improving BECAUSE MOST OF YOU (70%) TOLD HIM IT WAS. Don and SFW are no different than you and I, they aren't everywhere and can't know everything. LIKE YOU AND I, THEY ONLY KNOW THAT THEY SEE AND WHAT PEOPLE THEY TRUST TELLS THEM. (HE DIDN'T BELIEVE ME (30%)

WHO HAS BEEN TELLING SFW THE TRUTH ABOUT OUR DEER FOR 18 YEARS, GUYS LIKE ME (30%) OR GUYS LIKE SOME OF YOU (70%) AND THE AGENCY PROFESSIONALS?

So now.............. we (30%) FINALLY HAVE SFW's ATTENTION AGAIN, YES IT'S TAKEN 18 YEARS! And YOU WANT TO CRITICIZES HIM NOW FOR THANKING AND RECOGNIZING the young man that had the guts to take OUR CONCERNS to the Wildlife Board in order to get the SFW's attention. It FIGURES!

Yes, it's ABSOLUTELY true, SFW was not done all that should have been done for mule deer. THEY CURRENTLY ARE TRAVELING THE STATE, TELLING EVERYONE THAT WILL LISTEN THAT THEY HAVEN'T GOT THE JOB DONE. Now that they admit that and want to try to do better and to do more, YOU STILL WANT TO CRITICIZE THEM.

If anyone has a bone to pick with SFW it's us (30%). Here's the difference, we don't care what they didn't do, WE ONLY CARE WHAT THEY DO NOW!

WE DON'T CARE IF THEY GET ROTTEN RICH OR GO DIRT POOR IF THEY TURN THIS DEER HERD AROUND. If I could, I would make everyone of them a tillionaire if they grow more mule deer. I'll help YOU become a million or a transvestite, if that's what you want, if you'll grow more mule deer. You UWC folks, get your horse hooked to the plow and you get this mule deer herd growing and producing more deer than we are loosing every damn year and I'll be pounding your drum and shouting you praises and pushing your ideas and your legislative issues. As far as I'm concerned, until I see YOU GROWING DEER, your just ANOTHER MISERABLE OBSTACLE we have to overcome to get the job done.

I BELIEVE THIS: if left up to the so called 70% and the current agency administration we will be out of the mule deer hunting business far sooner than any of you can imagine. YES IT CAN AND YES IT WILL HAPPEN.

So..........put the past in the past. SFW has told us they will gear up and try again, for 3 to 5 years to stop the decline of mule deer. I want that to happen, I'm going to give my time, my money, my support, my encouragement and my piss poor effort to help them. If any other group or individual is going to do something, I'll do the same for them. Changing bad behavior is a virtue, forgiveness will refresh your soul.

A smarter person than me once said: YOU'RE EITHER PART OF THE SOLUTION OR YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM. It's just might be true.

DC
 
DAMN IT DC I told you only one glass of the koolaid, sounds like ya polished off the whole fricken keg!!!

Quality rant!!! Way to go!!


Proud part of the 70% that pays the way and makes the laws for the 30%!!!







2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
Thanks W. I really was wound up wasn't I. Need to get back to my more passive and gentle side. They'll think we're related if I continue to demonstrate such little constraint. Sorry, didn't intend to upstage you.

DC
 
2,

Good post, long but good.

I must admit I had to check my ears for wax when I heard Don say all the habitat improvement and everything else has not fixed anything. I've been slaughtered on here more than once for saying that kind of stuff. Couldn't believe my ears.

That all sounded good, but he through a lot of jabs at general hunters. Turned me off. I'm not going to sign up to help SFW if they are going to continue to stab the rest of us in the back. They invite everyone out and then bad mouth 65% of us. A lot of us are afraid SFW will use any success to further decrease opportunity.

Thanks for your efforts. I'm just going to do my own little habitat thing until I find a group that doesn't fight general hunters and has a convincing plan.
 
I agree that to many people have believed the professionals on the deer issue. I have said it over and over as well that our deer herds suck and the way the DWR does their count is not accurate enough to beleive, the numbers they throw out are way off in my mind. When they say we have 13,500 deer on the Abajo Unit I about died. I believe their is maybe around 5,000 deer and that is pushing it.

Anyway I wish someone or some group would come up with a more accurate way in counting the deer herds so we can get the reel feel of the damage done.
 
Ya!

Like the Deer count in the NE Region!

GEEZUS!

I'm not a School Boy Deer Counter,I'm not a BrainWashed Biologist,further more I don't think its too hard to figure out about how many Deer we have left,common sense over rides any of the BS numbers we hear about today,I'm tellin you if the UDWR cut 4,000 tags this last season in the NE Region you know it ain't good!


Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
The first part to recovery, is admitting you have a problem. The meetings they are holding is a start. Hope they get some ideas thar work.
 
The problem is who is admitting there is a problem. DWR continues to believe that there is a deer count of 310,000 deer state wide, there numbers never move much. My bet is there might be 180,000 deer statewide.

Get the numbers correct and lets see the damage.
 
I agree with all of you, southern unit in the same shape, they tell us their is plent of deer we just have to get out and find them. First it is they are scattered because of weather or they are all up high or they are in a concentrated area. It is time they listened to us as we are the ones who get out and walk the hills and truly are the eyes in so many areas. It is funny that all of us say the same thing, the deer herd is going down each year, yet they continue to listen to those who try to baffle us. It is time to admit like most have said on here the deer herd is poor, they buck herd is poor and it is time we do whatever it takes to turn it around. If we have to shut units completly down lets do it. We are ready to increase the herd, doing whatever it takes to get the job down.
 
How about we take 90% of the expo and put it towards mule deer? Just like wealth tags, SFW needs to show good will and put their money where there mouth is. Think of all the extra $ they could pull in at the expo if sportsman actually thought they were making a difference?
 
Went to the Spanish Fork meeting last night. the presentations were legit in my opinion. There is no doubt that it has been and is very difficult to overcome the belief by many of the big game "professionals" that the majority of the blame on mule deer decline was habitat problems. The reality is in my opinion, it is a modertae factor not the biggest factor. I have been saying it to the DWR folks for years that it is very interesting that you can look at the graphs of the decline in Mule deer numbers in the western US and the decline started and accelerated after the ban of 1080 poison. Its not a coincidence. But, it was the same old story line every time I discussed it with the DWR biologists-- it was drought, habitat, highway mortality, poaching-- and while I could agree that they were all factors, I couldn't accept their reasoning, because I knew of areas in the state that those factors didn't play the major roles that they said were causing the decline.
I have seen the reports on habitat restoration and I can believe that it is accurate to say that it is ligitimate to say 750,000 acres. Habitat isn't the problem in 85% of Utah.
I am not sure though that the DWR wants to engage in the political fight in regards to substantial predator decrease and control. The only real hope we have is for sportsmans organizations to take the fight to the Feds and the "enviromental" groups with their millions and their high paid lawyers. The wolves will quickly become the major factor in elk disappearing in parts of this state. If groups such as SFW aren't able to get them delisted in the entire state soon, we are in for a world of hurt. They are no doubt already established in parts of the state and have protection under the Endangered Species act.
I for one am thankful that there is a group that is taking on that fight to protect our future elk herds.I hope that all the other groups will do what they can to win this fight-- increasing mule deer numbers and delisting wolves.
 
I really feel that we need to focus on the major things that we can control. They are "Predators" especially dogs, they need to be kept at a real minimum.

Cougars and Bears are at a high. Should we kill all the bears and cougars, depends on what you want. I don't think so. I like hunting them and want to be able to for years to come. I don't want to see more though. I'm happy where were at .I would like to find out the maximum number of deer that can coexist with bears and cougars.

Elk herds are growing. This effects deer. I like our elk herds and don't want to kill all of the elk for the sake of the deer. Should we kill all of them, depends on what you want. I don't think so, I would like to find out the maximum number of deer that can coexist with elk, lions and bears.

We need to be able to kill every wolf that enters this state. We have lobbied and spent millions of dollars and they are still coming here. Where are our politicians now.

We need to have someone at the division responsible for it. They won't become extinct if we kill every one that comes to Utah. Where's the government trapper job when we need it.

Fencing highways might help but that is a lot of money and you will needs thousands of miles of fence, besides you can't control where a deer wants to go. Not oppossed to taking expo funds and trying though

Habitat has been in abundance because of the wet years. but again you can't tell a deer where to eat.

We can't control weather and bad winters, that just has to take its toll. Mother Nature

There will always be Doe and Cow hunts because of the money that ranchers loose every year and the manageing of herds. I would like to stop all of them though. They will always have depredation hunts so we just have to live with it.

Hunting bucks hasn't shown that it hurts the herd but the trophy mentality that controls the decisions again will continue to cut tags. We need the best method for counting the deer in place. Whatever that is. We need bucks for does. I don't think we should manage them to a minumum.

There will always be factors that kill deer, some we are going to have to live with and some we can change.

Hopefully they can allow all means possible to keep the dogs down. In my opinion that is the only real thing we can change that will make difference.

We can't have and abundance of everything. This is not the "Lion King". So hopefully we can decide what we want and focus on that.

I want Deer, Elk, Lions, Bears, Rabbits, Pheasant, I could care less about Dogs. Thats just me

Wow, want a rant. Just started typing and my thoughts were flowin.

Later.
 
Cougars at a high? I think your high. If you Think there at a high then you obviosly don't know what they were 15 years ago. You want to get a better herd improve winter range highway mortality and kill as many dogs as you can. For every lion track I find I can show you 150 different coyote tracks.
 
I don't know anything about cougars and dogs population but I do know that we have beat the habitat thing to death. There is good feed all over the place just not enough deer to eat it. Young plants spring up every year so don't give us that no nutrient bs. If we need to spend our money wiping out the dog and cougar population lets do it in order to save our mule deer.
 
Lions are not at their highest that they have been, but if you look at lions back int the 60-70 yes they are higher now then they were then.

Bears are at the all time high and need to be reduced. Coyotes are high and there should be more government trappers highered to be taken care of the coyotes.
 
I would be interested to know what the actual numbers are, for some reason that has not been posted anywhere that I've looked. I know a few of the ranchers around here shoot at least two coyotes a week and they haven't had a shortage yet.
 
my poison= .222 at every coyote,whacked 15 in idaho last year,get out and whack as many as you can,thats one thing that all hunters can do.
 
Non,

I'm growin some mule deer crack in a little hiddin canyon hombre. It should go for a premium man.

In all seriousness, my wife's family has some land on the benches above Brigham City. It is good winter range but could handle some more bitterbrush on the south slopes.

I'm also trying to get better pheasant cover on the fence lines on some property in Hurricane.

I've never done this. Any suggestions? I
 
My Two Cents worth:

I have lived in the 4 Corners for about 45 yrs, have hunted NW N.M and SW Colorado since the early 70's and SE Utah since the early 90's. Over the years the decline has gotten more and more noticable. I agree with some on this site about our sport being a thing of the past in the not to distant future.

Colorado and New Mexico both went to "micro-units" a while back and while it might have slowed the decline, I don't believe for a minute that it stopped the decline.

I believe the masses are correct about there being multiple reasons for the deer declining. Here where I live the population has dwindled to, 20%-30% of what it used to be, if that.

Back in the early 90's, there were 3 things that occurred around here, that I believe, pushed the deer over the edge and into a downward spiral. The drought, a realestate explosion, and the US govt instituted the CRP program. There used to be large fields of beans, soybeans and alfalfa. Alot of the agricultral land was broken up and sold off in 10-40 acre chunks, houses were bulit in a lot of places and many of the remaining alfalfa and bean fields were enrolled in CRP. Which amount to squat for nutritional value. Today this same area produces about 20% of the agriculture it used to. And has about 10% of the hunting pressure it used.

I believe this has had a multipronged affect on the deer, since alot of deer winter down here, they have had harder times getting through the winter, they've had to travel further to food sources and bedding area's, increasing incidents with auto's and with less and less forage put them at a disadvantage with predators compared to what they were before. And I believe this also might lead to lower birth rates and fawn survival.


I think we are going to have to have, aggressive predator control, some sort of sponsored plan to recruit and incentivise crop production (Alfalfa, soybeans, etc)in the lower elevations and agricultural areas, Summer range controlled burns, chaining and railings with supplemental Forage Kochia seedings to offset cheatgrass, and drastically reduce vehicle incidents, if we are going to have a comeback.

It is my opinion, that due to a muledeer's fickle diet, we have to supply them with more than adequate groceries first, and then do everything we can to drastically reduce negative impacts on them.

Just my opinion.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-12 AT 07:12PM (MST)[p]+1 justmuleys. Just what I was thinking introduction of nonnative noninvasive forage that is highly palatable along with sage and antelope bitterbrush. The many acres that have been recently treated are great for elk at this point they are mostly grass dominated. Takes around 15 to 20 years to be optimal for mule deer whereas the shrub component returns. We need to keep hammering out more acres I still think but put some good seed in it as well.
 
I planted Bitterbrush years ago for dedicated hunter hrs. in Monte Cristo Range why can't we do more of that type of work?

Also I hunted Colorado unit 64 and 65 in 2007 I stayed their for 11 days got to know the local CO officer their, they had their own nursery of plants in that unit that were for mule deer forage only.

Why can't we do the same here???? Every little bit helps..

Lumpy you have a PM.
 
Is it safe to say, we can never have too much viable bitter brush, or other browse? Never too much as far as I've ever seen!

We can do the same there and there are groups that will help buy the product if you can demonstrate a viable, logistical location to plant. Do it right and the DWR will let dedicated hunters help.

Every little bit helps alot!

PM back to you Tikka.

DC
 
I will say it here also:

We have to create MORE DEER, not More Bucks.

-29 units will not fix a declining Deer Herd, 80 units will not, neither would 1000 units. Is Idaho's Deer Herd recovering with 79 Units??? NO NO NO. It will fix a declining Buck to Doe ratio, since they have mandated an increase...but it will not increase Deer numbers. Hey it is fun to see a herd of 5 deer and have 3 be bucks, but I would rather see 25 deer and have 3 be bucks.
Killing less bucks, and micro managing will not create more DOES, or more Deer. That cannot be argued.


-The FG does a great job! I think they have identified the causes of the declining herds very well. WE JUST NEED TO FIX IT.
We cannot fix it by business as usual, and by business at current prices.

-New technology, new ways of handling the declining FEMALE DEER POPULATION, have to be created and deployed FAST!

Predators, we need a new way of controlling Coyotes. We called in 23 coyotes in one day this year. how can a fawn survive?
Winter, we need new and cheaper ways of feeding.
Range, we need cheaper and faster ways of fixing it.
Roads, fence them and build overpasses.

We have lived with the old way of managing Deer for 50 years. At the same time, we have changed the way we do everything else. It is time to change.

It is going to take, MONEY, and Politics to get it done.
Our Western Leaders, Primarily Governors, need to understand that we will not re-elect them unless it is fixed.

We have WAY less hunters in the State now, then ever before, but it still seems crowded. WHY? Because we can't hunt half the state.
Book Cliffs closed
Vernon closed
Henries closed
Oak Creek closed
Paunsagant closed
on and on.

I am not saying we need to open those areas, but we cannot continue down the path of LE units every time there is a problem. We have to fix the Deer Numbers!
 
I will agree somewhat that increasing buck will not increase deer herd except for the fact that we could not have enough bucks right now to breed all the doe's. In an area I have been watching very close, I can only come up with around 6 bucks per 100 doe. This to me does not seem like enough bucks to get the job done, at least according to all those who say we need around 12 to 15. So if this is the case I would disagree and say that increasing the buck numbers will help the deer population.
 
In reference to buck to doe counting. Does anybody know the actual method used to count them? The discussion I was in yesterday pointed to the fact that there isn't a standard and every biologist can do it however he feels like it. No offense to any of the biologists who do their jobs fair and impartially, but before my elk hunt I tried contacting the biologist for the area I was hunting in and once they figured out that I was looking for Bull to Cow ratios in that area and harvest information I haven't ever heard from them again. I'm positive that others I know have had nothing but "positive" experiences with the same thing. I even sent them a nice email with pictures and a 4 page report on my assessment of the area. Everything from habitat to pressures to wildlife counts. BTW, if anybody is looking for Blue Grouse next year PM me and I'll get you bagged out in a matter of an hour or so...
 
I agree Rising sun, how do they really make their count. I heard they call it classifying which could be anything, and may not be an official count. Why don't they get some help and have dedicated hunter hours offered to the sportsmen to go out and really make some good accurate counts, and then maybe we can get a true picture of where we really are with the number of bucks and doe's each year.
 
Lumpy, I would normally agree about the past being in the past, BUUUUUTTTTTTT, I find it interesting that as the economy dives, (and I would bet SFW's donations and revenues) that all of the sudden Don is interested in all of us again. Lumpy, we see this every 4 years. Orrin Hatch shows up, tells us all how important it is that HE be returned to Washington, because ONLY HE can save us. Then he disapears to Washington, shows up every once in a while when there are courtside Jazz seats, then 4 years later here he is to save us all again. SFW has taken how many millions from us to "save hunting". 18 years later we have lost 160,000 hunters, millions of acres, are selling deer to the biggest bidder(antelope island), and we have FEWER DEER, and MORE WOLVES. Sorry, but other than line their own pockets and feather the nests of their big donors, they have FAILED.

I do agree though. Don didn't know deer numbers were down, he didn't believe that we all weren't just lazy road hunters, he thought that we were all just jealous. All of these things he thought were because he spent all his time either lobbying, or hunting with outfitters, guides, or famously Karl Malone. None of which would put him where most of us hunt, public land. Sorry, BUT ISN'T his SOLE JOB to KNOW THESE THINGS? What the hell has he been doing for 18 years? I will be glad to support SFW, as soon as Don, and the leadership resign. If it was your buisness and it failed for 18 years, would your CEO and board of directors still be around?


When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-12 AT 09:23PM (MST)[p]horseblur, I know you know I know what you believe and your opinions of SFW. I know your not re-saying it for me, but for others. I do the same thing. The folks can go back for many years and read all of the posts you and I and others have made and I hope they do, it will give them ample opinions to base there research and there opinions on, whether to join with SFW or follow a different path.

I've said this many times, know the truth as best you can. "Shine a bright light on SFW" and make up your own mind. Folks have demanded and gotten all sorts of investigations into their activities and their behavior, so far zip, not guilty as charged. You would likely know better than I who has been sent to investigate them.

I hope SFW can help fix Utah's declining deer herds, then I hope they do! You and others will continue to do what you do. If your helping save deer I'll be cheering for you. otherwise not so much. I have no personal negative feelings to ward you or any of the others. I wouldn't know you if you walked in my front door so its not like respectfully disagreeing with Cannonball who is a damn good friend that I care about personally. You could be a the nicest guy in the world or a serial criminal, it matters not to me. I'm trying to preserver mule deer and mule deer hunting. My only interest in Don Peay, SWF or folks like yourself is if they are helping save what I believe is worth saving.

Demonstrate what you are doing or can do to stop the decline of mule deer and you'll have my immediate support. Otherwise, what your opinions and your beliefs are, are of no interest to me, as I'm sure you can appreciate.

Repectfully, without malice.
DC
 
Excellent thread and post Mr DC!
I agree with everything you've said. Time for us all to go to work..... with the SFW on our side.

Zeke
 
2lumpy

I have a couple of questions for you and anybody else from SFW. I have been told several times that SFW has funds from Conservation tags that are held over from year to year. Not sure if this is true or not. I have asked before why all of the 90% that is required from these tags is not accounted for. I was told that some money (allowed by the conservation tag agreement) is held back for emergency projects. First, have I been lied to or is this true? Second in your opinion is the Utah deer herd in a situation that requires immediate help? If so, could emergency funds be used to help the struggling Utah deer herd? Finally, can you or anybody else from SFW tell the MM crowd just how much money from the EXPO has gone to help with the struggling Utah deer herd? I am not looking for amounts that include federal matching funds, private donations or anything of that sort. I am simply asking how much or the generated money from the expo has actually gone to help the herds. I guess the last question should be to both the MDF and SFW.
 
I've been asking that same question for years with NO answer. Take 200 tags from the draw to sell at the convention, with no accountability of where this money is going. They could generate SO much more if they said 90 percent was going to the struggling deer herd in Ut.
 
Utah400Elk - Thank you for asking politely.

You may not like my answer but I will try to be as forth right as I can. That is, I will not try to give you half truths, so as to mislead you intentionally. If I mislead you or I'm in error, I apologize in advance, it is not my intent.

Let me try to paint a picture of my involvement with SFW, so you understand why I can only give opinion, rather than fact, on some of your questions.

I am only a member of SFW, like I am a member of Ducks Unlimited, Rocky Mt Elk. Mule Deer Foundation, Safari International, Montana Wildlife Federation, etc., etc. I either purchase a membership to help the org. with a tiny donation or I go to a local banquet wherein I get a membership with my dinner ticket.

I am not on SFW's Board or on any Board of any other the other org. I do help with various banquet dinners, ie: I'm on the local Committee that helps host the SFW banquet. I worked on the SFW Committee banquet in Richfield last year and I am helping again this year. This will be my last year because I am retiring from my job and I will be moving on to another kind of lifestyle come this July.

I have attended one SFW Board meeting (if that's what they call it) I only attended that meeting because the normal Board member couldn't attend and he asked another person to go in his place, at the last minute that person couldn't attend either and he call me because I was in Salt Lake that day for business and asked me if would mind going to the meeting to get what ever information they needed to send to Richfield. That was in November of 2011 as I recall.

So............I'm not an "insider" and I don't know much at all about there internal business. So, while I am an advocate of the organization and the individuals that operate it, I only know what I've seen and studied on my own, besides the direct discussions I have with Don himself.

Others "insider" have, on occasion provided answers to questions on MM, they, if they choice, could answer your questions better than I. However, as I've said about Don Peay, he is busy and will not and does not have the time to answer 5000 individual peoples questions, over and over again. I would guess the same is true to the half dozen other employees that run the org.

Not a lot different than any other hard working org. I suppose.

With that said:

You asked,
"I have been told several times that SFW has funds from Conservation tags that are held over from year to year."

I don't know, I've never asked and I have never heard anyone say.

My opinion is, yes, I would think there are carry over funds from the Conservation tags that are held over from year to year, if there are not, they could be, based on what I think I know about the "rules" or agreement they have with the State to provide the Expo.

You asked,
"I have asked before why all of the 90% that is required from these tags is not accounted for."

Again, I don't know but I have an opinion. I would think they either aren't required by "rules" to account for the use of the funds, OR, they are accounted for and have satisfied those that they are "required" to account to for the funds. I say this for two reasons, that I find logical.

One, many, many, individuals have asked for and demanded that State authorities (who ever they are) investigate how SFW uses it's funds. I believe these authorities have done their audits, as requested and have not found them to be in violation of the "rules".

Two, the original agreement to hold the Expo and provide the 200 Conservation tags as an incentive was a three year contract or agreement. That original agreement expired after last year's Expo, as I recall, and the State (the Governor) renewed the agreement. The renewal was done during and after many of the calls for audits and investigations were made. (Many folks have been opposed to the use of the Conservation tags and therefore the Expo from year one, so the State has had ample time to decide if they wanted to continue the Expo and to continue having SFW be the org. that did the work required to host it.

Based on those two reasons, I believe, SFW has either accounted for the use of the revenue that comes for the Conservation Tags and the Expo or they are NOT required too.

Now.......I know, some of us, as individuals, disagree with the "rules" and want either more public disclosure or personal individual disclosure. Regarding this matter, it is entirely up to SFW, as far as I'm concerned, how much or how little they do beyond what the State requires them to do, regarding inviting their membership or their potential membership onto their bedroom, so to speak. If they have opposition forces, attempting to thwart their efforts, be it anti hunting, anti guns rights, anti SFW, how much desire would SFW have to hold an open house to their financial dealings, every other day.

See, they don't even know if you're a 12 year old asking out of curiosity, an anti SFW individual seeking to undermine their efforts because you actually want wolfs everywhere and are actually trying to undermine hunting interests, if you a 65 year old that wants the DWR to go back to selling unlimited over the counter deer tags State wide, or a legitimate sportsmen concerned about Utah?s wildlife and mule deer decline.

You asked,
?Finally, can you or anybody else from SFW tell the MM crowd just how much money from the EXPO has gone to help with the struggling Utah deer herd??

That is kind of a loaded question, I'm trusting that you didn't intend it to be, so I'll respond, again by giving you my opinion.

I reality, your definition of ?helping? the struggling Utah deer herds could be very different from mine.

For instance, you may believe, as some do, that unless the money goes to purchase bitter bush seed or pay coyote bounties, or build underpasses on freeways, it's not ?going to help struggling deer?. I am one that does not believe that only these expenditures defines ?helping? the struggling Utah deer herds.

Let me give you what I think could be happen with a lot of some of these funds, I say could because I don't know, so I have to just suppose.

SFW employees, including Don Peay, need to eat so they can ?help? deer. They have families that need homes, school clothes for children, Moms need furniture and vehicles, etc. etc. If SFW employees are going to be ?helping? deer, the individuals that are involved need to be sustained while they are doing it.

Well, some would say, that is only 10%, so where is the other 90% going. I don't know whether it's actually 10% or 50%, I would guess the State auditors might know, if it's required in the ?rules?.

But let's suppose that we agreed on the % they take out of the Expo income.

Of course this is money left after all the actual Expo expenses are paid, such as but not limited to: rent for the building, they hire Expo workers that are not volunteers, the food, the entertainers, the advertizing, the sound systems, the lighting, etc. etc. (you know what I mean). I have absolutely not idea how much the Expo costs nor how much it takes in, in gross receipts. So, just for simplicity, let's just say the Expo takes in $10,000,000. Lets say we give $1,000,000 to the SFW employees, 10% (for Don Deay and SFW administrators) for their wages so they can buy homes, clothes, medicine, cars, etc, etc for their families. Then lets say that the rent for the building, the Expo, the food, the entertainers, the advertizing, the sound systems, the lighting, etc. etc. costs $7,000,000.

I'm guessing most of us could live with that part of the Expo, maybe not all but most could. (Some don't want it at all, the apparently the State does or they wouldn't keep providing the Conservation tags.)

So your question might be:
Does the $2,000,000 that is net gained go to ?help? deer. Some would say no, people like me believe it does. Let's say, SFW believes if they give $100,000 to the US Forest Service, the US Forest Service can call that money ?local matching? and get another $200,000 to rehab a lightning burn ridge on the Fish Lake Mountain, that summers mule deer. We like that. We think that's okay. But lets say, this is what happened. The fire burned the ridge. It wasn?t planned so there was on money in anyone?s budget to rehab it. Everybody wants the rehab but there's no money. So SFW hop on an airplane and fly back to Washington DC and they spend $30,000 on airfare, meals, lodging, hosting evening dinners with 30 bureaucrats and their wives, and it takes numerous trips ($30,000 worth of trips) but 6 months later, the agreement is made and it's something like this, SFW will come up with $100,000 and donate it to the US Forest Service and the US Government will send $200,000 of our tax dollars back to us for a total of $300,000 to do the rehab. So the question is then, did the $30,000 go to help deer. On the accounting records, it's shown as ?expenses?.

Now, lets be realistic, not every attempt that SFW makes to parley money into more money works. It seems reasonable for me, at least, to believe that they often fail. Not every time they spent the $30,000 do they end up getting the $200,000. So let's say it one in three, now they spent $90,000 to get $200,000. This is why I say, SFW is TRYING, they do not win every fight. But, in my opinion even when they lose, it is still helping deer because they have generated nearly $100,000,000 of revenue to help deer leveraging your and my limited donations. (or other wildlife, we have to remember that there is not commitment to spend of their money on just deer, all though I'd like to see that for a few years)

Lets take another example. Lets say that SFW meet a sportsman that owns a inter-oceanic shipping company. Lets say the owner is worth 2 billion dollars and he's had his wife and kids on vacation to Utah. He falls in love with our geography and asks someone about the hunting here. Ends up meeting an SFW administrator and they go on an elk hunt, have a great time and the SFW explains what they are TRYING to do with the deer, the elk, the sheep the turkeys etc, etc, and the guy says, ?what can I do to help?. And SFW say?s, ?we need $5,000,000 to buy property in an area where we can build a new sheep herd and in doing so we'll be able to increase the number of deer, elk, antelope, turkeys, etc?. The owner say?s Whoaaaaaaa, $5,000,000, I love ya man but that's a lot of cash. I'll have to mull that one over. So SFW spend the next 3 years working with this owner, they spent $100,000 doing it. Then, after much time, much of OUR DONATIONS to SFW, the deal is made. The $5,000,000 come in, property is purchased and the wildlife grows. The SFW show, $100,000 for expenses.

Well, that in fact, is what I believe is happening and I support that. I don't care how much of MY DONATIONS goes to any underpass, or a coyote bounty. What I care about is the big picture.

Others will scream that the process is wrong, immoral, unconstitutional, anti National Wildlife Model, and any number of things. I believe the opposite. I believe it is growing hunting opportunity, I believe every Pepsi that Don Peay and his family drink is helping our mule deer and I believe that if we run Don off and close the door on SFW we will go back to what we had before 1993 and that was NO strength from sportsmen when it comes to the lifestyle we desire and the big game it requires to live our dreams.

You stated:
?I am not looking for amounts that include federal matching funds, private donations or anything of that sort. I am simply asking how much or the generated money from the expo has actually gone to help the herds.?

You would need to read the State contract or what ever the Expo agreement actually says, its been posted here on MM in the past. By "rule", I do not think it requires one dime to be spent anywhere. The Conservation tags were given, as I understand, it to promote Utah and the hunting lifestyle. To take a State resource (hunting tags), and generate interest in Utah, bring money into the City of Salt Lake through lodging, meals, gasoline, and all the other things visitors spend money one when they come to town for a party. Was it SFW?s idea, I think it was, did the State buy into it, I think they did and still do. Does it ?help? mule deer, I believe it does. Could someone other than SFW hold the Expo, yes, but if they are meeting the objective of the State it is unlikely the State would ask anyone else to do it.

The State, through the DWR, requires you pay $10 for a chance at a limited entry tag. The Expo, through SFW, requires you pay $5 for a chance at a limited entry tag. Odds set aside, which is a better deal? The only different is you can stay home and get your chance at a limited entry tag for $10, where as you have to travel to Salt Lake City to get a change at a tag for $5.00. That is exactly what SFW agreed to do and that is what they have done. If there is a requirement as to how they spend the money, beyond paying the expensive of the Expo, I have not idea and I don't care because SFW is TRYING and SUCCESSING in helping deer and other wildlife species, and will continue to do so, in may opinion.

Once again, I have tried to answer your questions as honestly as I know how to do. I hope it help others that might be check in here on MM to know what I some of as well.

Now, its? one o?clock and I need to get back to what buys my Pepsi.

DC
Utah Mule Deer
1,200,000 ? 900,000 = 300,000 To Go
Bring It On
 
2lumpy

In all sincerity, thank you for the response. Given what I have seen and read about Utah's deer herd, I believe it is struggling. I would hope that all conservation organizations that have money in emergency funds would look at Utah's current deer herds and open their emergency funds for the deer.

I have fought the EXPO from the start. The main reason is that thereis no money from the convention that, by law has to go back to the wildlife. That has been the problem with the convention from the start. Originally the groups which included RMEF were going to guarantee a certain % back to wildlife. When the guarantee was removed RMEF backed out of the EXPO. I am sure some will have more info but that is my recollection. I have not been a big fan of SFW. I don't like the direction they have taken hunting in Utah. This is a great opportunity for SFW to dip into their emergency money to help the Utah deer herd. This would be a great time for SFW to take some of their landfall gains from Utah Wildlife (i.e. the expo) and give something back to wildlife. I would like to see this happen. I guess I will have to wait and see.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-09-12 AT 02:21PM (MST)[p]
DC---I know you are well thought of on this site and mean the best, but that last post sounded like BO stumping for the 2012 slot in the Democratic party primary with absolutely no transparency on anything that has gone on under his watch since he was elected to Office. Just elect me again and we will accomplish our goals seems to be the motto that isn't happening the way I see it sitting on the outside looking in. You mentioned "the State" numerous times in your post and it would seem to me that "the people" are the State and it sounds like an awful lot of the State are very unhappy the way things have been going the last 18 years there. These are just things I'm getting from reading all the pros (very few) and cons (many) since I joined this site a little over a year ago. Now it looks like coyotes are going to be targeted because that's what SWF is saying is decimating the deer herds in Utah. They better come up with many millions of dollars for an all out aerial assault, trapping, as well as a plan for the average guy to get involved wiping the critters out! If that doesn't occur, all it will be is a waste of money and the coyote will continue to build in numbers like they have everywhwere else throughout the country.
 
DC, are you trying to outdo me for post length? I think that one may have won.

Well said, it would seem to me that you could assimilate the ideas towards backing a group, such as SFW, to our own governmental system. There are Republicans and Democrats and nobody actually likes what either party really stands for, but you have to be on one side of the line or the other. Unless of course you want to run as an independent and nullify your voice but that's another argument. The point is sometimes it's better to stay on the side that at least has some interest in what you value than it is to go against it. It's all in your preference. I would dare to say though by not supporting these events and organizations you may be doing more harm than good. I myself know nothing of any of these organizations, but look how much power can be gained if everybody were to pick one and stick with it. NRA comes to mind...

Amongst all the infighting going on and differences of opinions ALL that are here reading and commenting are actually one of the same voice. If they could all work together and focus that voice in unison, whether they believe it to be good or bad personally, then more would get done. That's why they have these meetings and forums. They truly want the guy who doesn't like what they did, are doing, are going to do because he's going to push more than the agreeable followers. And if you want your difference of opinion to be valued by said organization than join them and voice it as an interested member of their ranks instead of an outsider. I think that you will see that EVERYTHING will be ran better. I know it's counterintuitive to think that if you are opposed to something you should join it, but try it and see. Just a thought, I could be wrong.

If I could help with a visulization I would suggest watching a Youtube video about sticking Mento's in a soft drink. You can put the mentos on the outside of the softdrink all you want, or poor the softdrink out onto the mentos. It's still not going to be as effective, or erruptive if you will, as sticking them in the container at the same time.

GW
 
Utah400Elk-we are okay to disagree. Isn't America a great place, that we can disagree and yet still work together most of the time.

Regarding SFW's reserve funds and mule deer. I agree entirely, 110% even. If they have reserve funds, now is the time to put them on the table, waiting any longer will for sure be too late for our mule deer. This is what SFW claimed they wanted in 1993, this is why we donated and support them today. If they don't help deer now, why do we need SFW? We don't, in my opinion. We'll always need help with moose, turkeys, elk and sheep, but if SFW's mission was to save mule deer, it's time to fish or cut bait.

1,200,000 - 900,000 = 300,000 To Go.

TopGun-it is what it is. SFW stumping would be an alright way to describe it so far as I'm concerned. I think I used the term UNABASHED, in a previous stump. They are the five hundred pound gorilla, by desire and design. There are no other five pound gorillas in Utah and there never have been in the world of the sportsman.

SFW tired the habitat tactic. It either wasn't necessary, or the deer herds got so depleted they couldn't respond to the rehab. The bottomline is, more rehab is not likely to help unless we do some other things. One of them is reduce the coyote population and as you mentioned "keep it reduced". SFW is not looking to establish a one or two year effort. They said in there meeting Richfield that creating a yearly budget to kill coyotes is the only thing the will work on coyotes because the minute you stop funding and killing, they come back in a flurry and you've lost all the ground you've gained and wasted the money you've spent. In other words, killing coyotes is a worthless effort unless the State establish a large, "for ever budget" for mule deer coyote control. State is "us", you and I. However we are represented by elected officials and while you out of State folks don't get to pick ours, we TARDS do and we there for have our voice and our choice of State programs, through our elected officials. It it of course the American system of government, not that you needed that explained, teehee. It is a little disingenuous, or so it seems to pick apart the terminology used in these discussion, rather than focus on the meat of the problems but it is fun and I get it so it okay. I was just using the term the State so I didn't need list all of the individuals the term the State included.

Regarding me personally, I don't know who or who don't support the "well though of" stuff. Truth is, I only know 5 or 6 people that post on this site. I doubt I'll ever know any more than that, so what people think of me isn't an issue for me. So being well thought of or poorly though of by a few thousand strangers does mean a lot to me. I just know we had 1,200,000 deer and we now have some 300,000 give or take a 100,000. I believe we can restore our herds. Maybe not 1,200,000 but I see no reason why we can't have at least 600,000 or more. SFW has been trying to help do that. They have failed, BUT SO HAS EVERYONE ELSE. They have done other things and been successful. They CLAIM they are going to "throw everything" at mule "ONE LAST TIME". I WANT TO HELP AND I WANT EVERYONE TO HELP because I fear for mule deer and a treasured part of our hunting lifestyle it THEY fail again.

NOW...............IF THERE IS ANOTHER HORSE TO RIDE TO THIS KNIFE FIGHT, LET ME KNOW, I'LL HELP WHO EVER, WHERE EVER, HOW EVER. SEEING NONE, I'M ALL IN WITH SFW.

DC
Utah Mule Deer
1,200,000 - 900,00 = 300,000 To Go
BRING IT ON
 
RisingSun, I have said those very words, over and over and over. We don't have to like each other or ever know each other. We don't need to know who makes what or where they spent it. Who's buddies with who, or who's girl friend has the biggest boobs.

I get on this forum for two reason:

1. I want to try to save a hunt able mule deer population for future generations, yours and mine.

2. From time to I would like a little help knowing where to hunt and how to enjoy an
outdoor experience that others on this site might know more about than I do. I've asked, they helped. I try to do the same.

We already have ENOUGH DAMN organizations. WE NEED ONE OF THEM, WITH SOME POWER, TO SAVE MULE DEER. SFW IS A UTAH BASED ORG. THEY SAID THEY WANTED TO SAVE MULE DEER AND DEER HUNTING. WE HELPED THEM GET IN A POSITION TO DO THAT. WHY IN HELL DON'T WE GET TOGETHER WITH THEM AND GET IT DONE. IF THEY ARE RUNNING SCARED AS STATED BY SOME, GOOOOOOOOOD. MAY BE WE CAN SCARE THEM INTO DOING WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.

STARTING ANOTHER ENEPT ORGANIZATION IS WORTHLESS TO ME.

DC
Utah Mule Deer
1,200,000 - 900,000 = 300,000 To GO
BRING IT ON
 
Thanks for all you do DC and your passion and time to try to make things better. You have some good well thought out post. I think your a straight shooter and tells it how you see it.
 
DC---I think the second sentence in your last post is probably what I see as the big problem and it's what almost all of the MMers that have been making negative comments about SFW are saying on this website. You stated: "We don't need to know who makes what or where they spent it." That just doesn't cut it because IMHO most people DO want to know where their money is going. That alone would make me hesitate to become a member of any organization that isn't completely open as to where every incoming dollars goes. I don't think I'm alone in that assessment.
 
DC, personally who makes what and where the money goes
isn't really the deciding factor for me. It's important, sure,
but if I knew an Org had a higher overhead but got things handled they'd still get my support.

For me it all comes down to history on specific subjects.
I'd gladly donate time and money to SFW for the work they do
with turkeys for instance. They have done one hell of a job
in that area. They created a TON of opportunity where there was none.

Mule deer is another story all together. From the outside looking in, this looks exactly like another pin the tail on the donkey, shot in the dark. After this latest example of putting all of our eggs in one basket came up I did quite a bit of reading. Colorado, WAFWA, New Mexico, Utah and Idaho. The results of all out war on dogs is inconclusive at best. Add all of this to the history of reducing opportunity and flat out ending hunts (AR-301) and you can see my reluctance to offer support without having ANY type of evidence of past performance for the investment.










2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
TopGun-how much have you contributed to SFW and in what form, that you need a deeper level or disclosure? Be careful how you answer.

I contribute to a lot of organizations, I've listed some of them. I've contributed to the needs of individuals. I contributed to the Red Cross and the Salvation Army. Have you the other MMerthat have this concerns made these kinds of contributions?

My guest is, (and I hate to get on here and make guesses about people or their motives but I will because you just did, so I'll respond to a guess with a guess, if that's okay) you and many of the others will say they have made contributions to lots of organizations. To wildlife orgs. to their schools, their churches, their politicians, their girl scouts, boy scouts, and on and on.

If you tell me that you and the majority of the others demand the level of personal and disclosure closure that you are suggesting is appropriate from SFW I'll take my hat off to you. But I don't think my head will be cooling off too soon.

When you get on here, along with like minded folks that you believe need to have this level of knowledge about their orgs. in order to continue to support or to even start supporting for the first time, then can demonstrate that you are demanding and getting the kind of disclosure your expecting from SFW, I'll stop questioning the motives.

If, as you say, so many need this kind of disclosure, why aren't they demanding the same thing from Miles Moretti and the Mule Deer Foundation. MDF is a full partner in the Expo. Yet there is, thankfully, precious little inquiry in to what Miles makes, or spend or what percentage of funds they are spending of Expo money on mule deer. Why would that be? A full partner, yet no demand for disclosure, seems strange. (Now please don't start pounding on Miles just so you can disprove my point, it's already to late, it would just look foolish at this juncture.)

Why aren't we using this forum to demand more disclosure from NRA, the RMEF, Ducks Unlimited, Turkey Federation, etc............?

Personally, I can't stand the Utah representative for the RMEF, no use for him, do you see or hear me going after him 24/7, never. I've heard others express the same opinion of him, silence!!! Do we still contribute to RMEF, hell yes, they do good for wildlife.

I believe there are many different reasons different folks are after SFW, to name a few;

They just dislike or worse hate the founder for personal reasons.

They dislike the methodology of the organization.

They've lost there way and won't or cant come back.

They just dislike ANY organization.

There the one the really staggers me: They just like to have a look around, whether they have any skin in the game or not and find a good fight going on ( kind of like a few bar fights I been in) and just wade in and throw a hay maker or two, just for the pure pleasure of it. I think maybe some of our non-resident friends might fit this category, of course I know these are all our animals and all our public lands so everyone has a right........ya, ya, ya, ya. Sorry, I am basically a sarcastic s.o.b. by nature so once in a while I loose my composure. Nothing personal, I assure you. You have offered me help on hunting questions and I know you're passionate about the same things I am.

We could list a bunch more but you get the idea.

If we're going to claim a certain kind of need, so far as disclosure is concern, demonstrate it over an extended period of time.

Anyway. That's what I think. For what it's worth.

DC
Utah Mule Deer
1,200,000 - 900,000 = 300,000 To Go
BRING IT ON
 
WW, thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts without ranker. It goes a long way with me.

I can understand the statement you just made, entirely. Way's more I have empathy for why you believe or feel the way you do. SFW has done many, many thinks to help sheep, turkeys etc. in Utah. I believe they have tried to do the same with mule deer. I also believe they have failed. Not that they have failed to try or failed to do anything, but the things they have done, so far as mule deer are concerned, have not help, or at the very least, their efforts have not helped enough because we have continued to loose deer numbers since 1993. The trend downward has continued, in spite of SFW's efforts and everyone else's.

Regarding this effort (your pin the tail metaphor) to establish a long term funding mechanism to control coyotes and other predators. Based on recent studies the DWR biologist have done, (some of these studies I think SFW helped fund, I believe, but could be wrong) have pointed the donkey tail pin at coyotes holding down fawn recruitment. Based on those studies and the reports they have been getting for Fed. land managers, I believe they have come to the conclusion that coyotes may be the linch pin that we as humans do something about the would bolster fawn survival.

Based on the current "pissed off" attitude of thousands of sportsmen regarding their deer herd and yes, there deer hunt experiences. SFW has gotten a jolt to there collective minds. I believe SFW are at a tipping point, so far as mule deer and I hope they know it.

I have, for the last 9 years, asked SFW and Don to stop telling the public that mule deer were coming back, that a recover was under way. I personally told him if he didn't stop his credibility with the rank and file was going to suffer. Based on his reaction to me, I believe he truly believed that to be true. I believe his personal experience in the field actually confirmed that in his mind. Depending where you are hunting in Utah, some few areas are not in trouble, or so I'm told. So, while he was willing to hear me out, he wasn't buying what I was saying, what's more the professionals were telling him and still are that it takes 10 to 15 years to see a return and browse rehab so he needed to give the rehab invest ample time to prove it's self.

I think, around 5 years ago, Don and SWF began to suspect those of use that were telling him, No, No, No, were right. Three seasons ago, his children told him they would not hunt mule deer with him in Utah any longer. That's pretty close to your heart if your a Dad and you're the king pin of the mule deer recovery effort. I believe it was about this time there was a SFW self-evaluation. This coupled with his belief that someone better try to do more than was being do to put the brakes on this wolf mess caused Don to come to this conclusion:

1. Deer are continuing to decline.

2. What SFW, MDF, DWR and other are doing either hasn't been enough or it's been the wrong solution to the current 2011 reality.

3. A grass move took of, one he did not believe could happen.

4. When the unit management concept or nightmare, what every you want to call it happen, Don and SFW said, I'll be damn, now what.

5. They then concluded a new opportunity was available.

6. They heard the ranker and the hostility, as much of it was directed at them. Some of it was earned, they admit as much.

7. I think SFW said something like this, let's try one more time. One last time, to try to turn the decline of mule deer around. (They know, most likely as well or better than we do, that mule deer are suffering throughout the west and that a single bullet solution does not exist.)

Now, what if, after 3 or 4 years, we aren't seeing an increase in the number of mule deer, especially on those units where predator control has been greatly increased? I believe at statement something like this will come out of SFW.

"We have put our energy, our efforts and your money into mule deer restoration and we have come to the conclusion that there is nothing more we can do. We will continue to help grow opportunities for hunting turkeys, sheep, elk, antelope and moose but we not longer into to focus large amounts of limited resources on mule deer. We hope, some how, some way, mule deer can make a come back. Thank you for all the support and the trust you have given us in this endeavor. Lets try to make sure we don't loose any more sport hunting species. Thanks for your support."

I hope what we are trying to do with unit management helps, I hope what SFW is doing helps, I hope what MDF helps, I hope what the DWR does helps, I hope what the current Wildlife Board does helps, I hope what the Governor and the Legislature does helps, I hope what the hunting clubs and orgs such as BOU and others do help.

I have no desire, absolutely no desire to harm or restrict hunting opportunity or days afield, for any hunter. The exact opposite is true, I want more opportunity for you, your child, your grandchildren and for everyone else.

I believe the best way to accomplish my desires for public land deer and deer hunters is with the efforts of SFW. I simply do not see anyone else in a position to do more than they can. I hope I'm right because mule deer as a huntable species are worth it.

Sorry, I didn't have the energy to proof read another one of these epistles tonight so I apologize if this is a little hard to follow due to words I left out or typos I've made.

Thanks again for being willing to respond with out hostility.


DC
Utah Mule Deer
1,200,000 - 900,000 = 300,000 TO GO
BRING IT ON
 

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