I Quit!!!!!!!!!!!!

cantkillathing

Very Active Member
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I just read a report from the DWR that says that studies have been done to see if predators have an impact on mule deer, Specifically coyotes and mountain lions. Here is the conclusion of the report.

SUMMARY
Coyote Removal
1. Neonatal fawn survival increased after coyote removal.
Effectiveness of removal was dependent on the abundance
of primary prey (lagomorphs) for coyotes because coyotes
appeared to switch to mule deer fawns at low lagomorph
densities.
2. Winter fawn survival and adult survival did not increase
following coyote removal.
3. The effect of coyote removal on population growth rate was
undetectable.
Mountain Lion Removal
1. Mountain lion removal increased winter fawn survival.
2. Adult female mule deer survival increased with mountain lion
removal, up to 5.5% annually at maximum removal rates.
3. Fawn-to-adult female ratios increased with mountain lion
removal. We predicted a 6% increase at average removal
and up to 27% at maximum mountain lion removal.
4. Mountain lion removal had a minimal, positive effect on mule
deer population growth rates.
Factors Affecting Mule Deer Vital Rates
1. Pregnancy rates of adult females were high (91?98%).
2. Fawn-at-heel ratios in June were high (1.62?1.81) in normal
climate years.
3. Disease was not a factor in mule deer survival.
4. Age was an important factor in adult mortality.
5. Climate was the most important factor explaining survival of
fawns in winter, adult females in summer, fawn ratios, and
population growth rate.

Basically we can say that Climate is the factor now, so in conclusion we don't need any agency managing mule deer because obviously predators arent a factor, hunters arent a factor, habitat isn't a factor.

I am sorry but I don't believe the report or the study, I am a hick in the woods that will believe the old time hicks that will tell you that when predators were gone the mule deer exploded.

So I guess what I am hearing is the DWR cant do anything about the mule deer issue, is that what you hear.
 
I feel you frustration. It is absolutely apparent that the DWR if fine with the job they have done and continue to do. I wrote a pretty scathing (yet respectful) email to the DWR and received this response from everyone's favorite Big Game Coordinator (will remain nameless).

"How we manage buck deer harvest does not effect the overall population level. Reducing buck harvest does not increase population growth. Given limited habitat resources it is best to carry few bucks in the winter. We carry at least 15 bucks per 100 does on all of our units. Any additional bucks will compete with does over a limited habitat resource. Cutting buck permit numbers is not best for the deer herd. That is why we lean more towards opportunity, it is sound wildlife management. If you look at Limited entry units where we have limited buck harvest and high buck to doe ratios, those herd are struggling just as much if not more than herds where we have a liberal number of permits.
Ultimately it all comes down to habitat and moisture. When we have good ranges and sufficient moisture our herds grow regardless of many of the other factors."

Nothing about predators, highway mortality, winter-kill, amount of hunters; it's ALL about habitat and moisture.....
 
I told you cant!

You didn't listen to me though!

You now have the GOSPEL from the DWR!:D



Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
Demographic Response of Mule Deer to
Experimental Reduction of Coyotes and
Mountain Lions in Southeastern Idaho

That is the name of the article, search that I cant seem to get a link.
 
>Demographic Response of Mule Deer to
>
>Experimental Reduction of Coyotes and
>Mountain Lions in Southeastern Idaho
>
>That is the name of the
>article, search that I cant
>seem to get a link.
>

Sat through a lengthy session with the scientist who did the study and a number of his collegues. I believe the findings and they were as summarized by the OP. I realize I could argue until I am blue in the face about predator vs habitat management and still won't win especially going against those with limited experience and resources for wildlife management. I will concede though the second part of the discussion was based around bears and their impact upon deer herds and fawn survival. The evidence suprised me by showing they have a larger impact upon spring fawn survival than coyotes do.

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling
up anyway."
 
Hey dont bring bears into this you will have STTM on your case.....unleash the keyboard on him STTM for bringing up bear... I am sure there is a study that shows they have no impact as well...obviously nothing has an impact on mule deer, except for climate and weather.
 
I didn't find the full study but was able to locate the Abstract.

Abstract:
Manipulating predator populations is often posed as a solution to depressed ungulate populations. However, predator?prey dynamics are complex and the effect on prey populations is often an interaction of predator life history, climate, prey density, and habitat quality. The effect of predator removal on ungulate and, more specifically, mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus) populations has not been adequately investigated at a management scale. We tested the efficacy of removing coyotes (Canis latrans) and mountain lions (Puma concolor) for increasing survival and population growth rate of mule deer in southeastern Idaho, USA, during 1997?2003. We assigned 8 game management units (GMUs) to treatments under a 2 ? 2 factorial design (treatments of coyote removal and lion removal) with 2 replicates of each treatment or reference area combination. We used methods typically available to wildlife managers to achieve predator removals and a combination of extensive and intensive monitoring in these 8 GMUs to test the hypothesis that predator removal increased vital rates and population growth rate of mule deer. We determined effects of predator removal on survival and causes of mortality in 2 intensive study sites, one with coyote and mountain lion removal and one without. We also considered the effects of other variables on survival including lagomorph abundance and climatic conditions. In these 2 intensive study areas, we monitored with radiotelemetry 250 neonates, 284 6-month-old fawns, and 521 adult females. At the extensive scale, we monitored mule deer population trend and December fawn ratios with helicopter surveys. Coyote removal decreased neonate mortality only when deer were apparently needed as alternate prey, thus removal was more effective when lagomorph populations were reduced. The best mortality model of mule deer captured at 6 months of age included summer precipitation, winter precipitation, fawn mass, and mountain lion removal. Over-winter mortality of adult female mule deer decreased with removal of mountain lions. Precipitation variables were included in most competing mortality models for all age classes of mule deer. Mountain lion removal increased fawn ratios and our models predicted fawn ratios would increase 6% at average removal rates (3.53/1,000 km 2 ) and 27% at maximum removal rates (14.18/1,000 km 2 ). Across our extensive set of 8 GMUs, coyote removal had no effect on December fawn ratios. We also detected no strong effect of coyote or mountain lion removal alone on mule deer population trend; the best population-growth-rate model included previous year's mountain lion removal and winter severity, yet explained only 27% of the variance in population growth rate. Winter severity in the current and previous winter was the most important influence on mule deer population growth. The lack of response in fawn ratio or mule deer abundance to coyote reduction at this extensive (landscape) scale suggests that decreased neonate mortality due to coyote removal is partially compensatory. Annual removal of coyotes was not an effective method to increase mule deer populations in Idaho because coyote removal increased radiocollared neonate fawn survival only under particular combinations of prey densities and weather conditions, and the increase did not result in population growth. Coyote-removal programs targeted in areas where mortality of mule deer fawns is known to be additive and coyote-removal conditions are successful may influence mule deer population vital rates but likely will not change direction of population trend. Although mountain lion removal increased mule-deer survival and fawn ratios, we were unable to demonstrate significant changes in population trend with mountain lion removal. In conclusion, benefits of predator removal appear to be marginal and short term in southeastern Idaho and likely will not appreciably change long-term dynamics of mule deer populations in the intermountain west. ? 2011 The Wildlife Society.

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling
up anyway."
 
Hey cant!

Never said the Bears didn't have an Impact on Deer!

What you forgot to mention is what I really said:The number of Deer Killed by Bears comparing numbers of Deer being killed by Coyotes in Utah is like Day & night in differences!

Ya,Climate & Weather must be what the problem is now,again,a couple more factors,but nobody will admit there are 20+ problems/reasons why the TARDville Deer Herd ain't comming back!

The Utah Deer Herd ain't comming back!

You can Blame any single problem you want to,but lets just cover the Big Picture with one word why the Herd ain't comming back:TARDS!

There's all kinds of TARDS:

DUMB TARDS!

1/2 DUMB TARDS!

GREEDY TARDS!

OPPORTUNIST TARDS!

TROPHY HUNTIN TARDS!

PISSCUTTER KILLIN TARDS!

TARDS THAT JUST DON"T KNOW ANY BETTER!

TARDS THAT WOULD POACH ANY BUCK SEASON OR NO SEASON!

TARDS THAT DON"T GAF ABOUT A HEALTHY HERD THEY JUST WANNA HUNT!

TARDS THAT WANNA SHOOT DOES EVEN THOUGH THE HERD IS IN BIG TROUBLE!

TARDS THAT WANNA KILL A DEER EVERY YEAR EVEN THOUGH THEY KNOW THERE AIN"T ENOUGH DEER LEFT TO DO SO!

TARDS THAT THINK BEARS ARE DOING MORE DAMAGE THAN COYOTES TO OUR DEER HERD!

TARDS THAT THINK IT"S ONLY THE LIONS DECIMATING OUR DEER HERD!

TARDS DOING DEER COUNTS THAT AIN"T EVEN IN THE BALL PARK!

TARDS(WAY MORE TARDS ON THE ROADS NOWDAYS!)KILLING MEGA NUMBERS OF DEER ON OUR ROAD-WAYS!

TARDS POACHING!

TARDS POACHING IN LE UNITS THROUGH-OUT THE YEAR!

TARDS TURNING TROPHY BUCKS IN TO BIG MONEY!

TARDS LIVING & CAMPING ON THE FEW BIG BUCKS WE HAVE LEFT YEAR AROUND!

TARDS COLLECTING A FEE FOR LOCATING A BIG BUCK!

TARDS COLLECTING BIG MONEY TO LET OTHER TARDS KILL THE BIG BUCKS!

TARDS WITH UN-LIMITED MONEY HUNTING BIG BUCKS EVERY YEAR!

TARDS MAKING MEGA MONEY ON THE EXPO!

TARDS MAKING MEGA MONEY ON THE BANQUETS!

TARDS(MANY!)GOING TO THE EXPO TAKING THEIR CHANCES!

A FEW TARDS PROPTESTING THE EXPO!

TARDS WANTING TO DECIMATE LE UNITS!

OTHER TARDS LETTING THEM DO IT!

TARDS MOVING IN TO WINTER GROUNDS!

TARDS SHOOTIN DINK BUCKS JUST TO SAY/BRAGG:I FILLED MY TAG!

TARDS HUNTING & SPENDING 1000.00'S OF DOLLARS & BOASTING THEY NEED THE MEAT!

TARDS STEALING OTHER TARDS BIG GAME ANIMALS!

THOUSANDS OF TARDS DRESSED UP AS PUMPKINS ALL DESTROYING & THRASHING AN AREA!

THOUSANDS OF TARDS NOT OBEYING ATV LAWS & THRASHING MORE PUBLIC GROUND BY THE YEAR!

TARDS WORKING THE SYSTEM!

TARDS NOT ENFORCING THE LAWS LIKE THEY SHOULD!

A FEW TARDS GETTIN CAUGHT,BUT THE FINES AIN"T BIG ENOUGH TO MAKE THEM THINK TWICE!

SOME TARDS WITH THE ATTITUDE:F'IT I"LL PAY THE FINE IF I GET CAUGHT!

TARDS PRESSURING GAME HERDS FROM MID-AUGUST IN TO JANUARY & FEBRUARY!

TARDS PRESSURING & LOOKING FOR SHEDS 2 MONTHS BEFORE THEY FALL OFF THEIR HEADS!

TARDS SELLING GAME HEADS!

TARDS SELLING SHEDS!

TARDS BIDDING AUCTION TAGS UP BEYOND BELIEF!

TARDS SHOOTING & WOUNDING MORE THAN ONE BUCK!

TARDS BRAGGING THEY WOUNDED NUMOROUS ANIMALS BUT KEPT HUNTING!

TARDS PACING ARCHERY EQUIPMENT GOOD TO 100 YARDS!

TARDS PACKING SMOKE POLES GOOD OUT TO 300+ YARDS!

TARDS PACKING LONG RANGE RIFLES GOOD OUT TO 1,000+ YARDS!

TARDS HUNTING CWMU'S!

TARDS MAKING BIG MONEY OFF OF CWMU'S!

TARDS RUNNING CWMU'S FOR NOTHING MORE THAN A BIG $$$ BUSINESS!

TARDS- SUPPOPSIBLY THE ONE'S THAT ARE THE PRO'S DECIMATING & OVER-HUNTING & ISSUING WAY TOO MANY TAGS FOR REGIONS/AREAS!

TARDS IN 'SHOOT-PLANES' COVERING EVERY SQUARE INCH OF TARDville!

TARDS SETTING OUT UN-LIMITED NUMBERS OF TRAIL-CAMS!

TARDS SETTING UP HIGH-TECH CAMS & VIDEO CAMS ON EVERY TRICKLE OF WATER IN TARDville!

TARDS HERASSING DEER YEAR AROUND!

OH,DID I SAY TARDS?

TARDS CLAIMING WERATHER & CLIMATE NOW!

I COULD GO ON & ON & ON & ON BUT I WON"T!

I DON'T & HAVE NEVER BLAMED A SINGLE REASON FOR THE DECLINE OF MULE DEER IN UTAH,I"VE ALWAYS SAID THERE ARE 20+ REASONS WHY,THERE"S WAY MORE THAN 20 IF YOU LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE!

DID YOU HEAR ME cant?



















Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
Hey you werent suppose to unleash on me, it was that other guy you were suppose to leash out on.

Lots of good points though, I finally got you to throw out some of your views of why.

You forgot to put in that bobcats are a factor though..
 
High coyote numbers will result in high fawn mortality IMO. There just is not enough other prey species to feed them all, it's to easy for them to kill a fawn laying in the grass compared to chasing something else.
 
Sorry cant!

I did forget the bobcat factor!

They don't kill often,but when they do it ain't no PISSCUTTER!:D

Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
>I am putting a link to
>the complete article, copy and
>paste if you want to
>read it.
>
>https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9uFrL8TTocOZWIwMTdhNTktNzQ2Mi00OWNlLTg2YzYtNDE4M2IzYzMzZDA0
>
>
>Love it or hate it, this
>is the most up to
>date and thorough science looking
>at mule deer populations and
>predators.
>
>Dax
>
>There is no such thing as
>a sure thing in trophy
>mule deer hunting.

So Dax?

You're sayin it's GOSPEL?



Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-12 AT 08:34PM (MST)[p]I am not making any kind of personal statement or judgement about this study. I just happened to have a copy and thought I would post it up for curious folks to have a look and draw their own conclusions.


Dax

There is no such thing as a sure thing in trophy mule deer hunting.
 
No, it's science. Therefore a hypothesis is proven or disproven. This same experiment in a different ecotype or with a different species could yield a different response from the population. I think you guys are interpreting the report the wrong way. It does not say that killing dogs has no effect; it just says that killing dogs has a lesser effect on population than killing lions, quality habitat, and precip do.
The truth of the matter is that if SFW pulls their funding away from habitat work and puts it all towards dog removal, they are making a big mistake (bigger than the ones that they have recently been involved with and one that cost the deer and hunters in UT!).
As I have said before, there are many reasons (like Bobcat, sorry, STTM pointed out) that the heard numbers seem to be down. Focusing on one of those elements is not a bad idea, but with the science that is out there, I would not start with dog removal. Yes it is the easiest (least controversial-most every enjoy shooting dogs and has little to no use for them) one, but it is not the right one.
What would I do? I would focus on lion and bear #s, vehicle collisions, habitat, poaching, and tag #s. With habitat being the most limiting factor, I would make sure that I maintained support there and then pick an annual (or longer) focus area. Maybe a 40/60 split? There is a lot of proactive (pre-fire and cheat-grass invasion) and reactive (fire rehab) habitat work that is going and needs to continue on winter ranges all over the state. I would also start looking at summer range project for struggling herds. In most cases these project would be logging and fire on public lands (at higher elevations) which would increase the forbs and brush components and regenerate the seral tree species (ie. aspen).
So in summary; continue to do habitat work and pick a focus area. I would also not make statements about growing the deer herds like SFW has when it is not possible with focus only on one contributing issue (dogs).
3p2
 
Hey Dax?

They ain't gonna try this Excuse in TARDville are they?

Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
Funny stuff!!

Unless a study proves what you believe to be the issue it has to be wrong! It's also funny that the Cougar study on the Monroe and Kennecott found the exact same thing, but it cant be right either.
 
>Funny stuff!!
>
>Unless a study proves what you
>believe to be the issue
>it has to be wrong!
>It's also funny that the
>Cougar study on the Monroe
>and Kennecott found the exact
>same thing, but it cant
>be right either.

+1

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling
up anyway."
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-12 AT 12:52PM (MST)[p]I wonder how often does abort their fetus when they are frequently harrassed in areas with high cougar and coyote densities.

When we have deep snow and the deer health is declining, I believe more does will abort with a lot of harrasment. This consideration needs to be taken into account concerning doe fawn counts and recruitment as well.

What did the Monroe study say?
 
cantkillathing,

There is nothing to believe or disbelieve, these are the results of the study. It is not a story, there are facts to backup the results. You can prove the study wrong, show how they did not follow the scientific method or choose to ignore the results. It's up to you and the rest of us reading the study. I for one beleive the results. I am also confident that those in charge of repairing Utah's deer herd will choose to ignore the results. They have ignored every other study for the last 30 years and look at the results.
 
The Cougar Study on the Monroe showed the same thing. A depressed lion population does little to nothing to help a deer herd rebound. The data shows over and over that working on lions doesn't help, yet we keep beating the same drum that we have for the last 13 years.

Someone remind me, whats the definition of insanity?
 
Bulls*** that coyotes and mountain lions have little effect on a deer heard. For example; my family owns 4,000 acres of prime blacktail habitat in a western state. When they bought the land, it was covered with coyots. The deer population was decent, but not great. The pheasat, quail and rabbit population was horrible. After three years of killing 15-20 dogs a year, and keeping the coyotes in check, the deer population is fantastic today. We see more fawn survival now than we did the first couple years of owning the land. The rabbit, quail and pheasant population is also world class now.
 
Are there a high number of Sasquatch in Utah? Maybe they're the ones eating the deer? I'd like someone to do a study on it...maybe THAT will prove it is the lions and coyotes.....and bears causing the deer herd decline.

Steve
Worlds Best ebayer
Great transaction, fast payment, A+++++
 
Doctor: sir, I'm sorry to inform you that you have testicular cancer.
Hunter #1: No I don't.

Doctor: Our pathologist said all of your tests came back as positive.

Hunter #1: He's wrong.

Doctor: The MRI showed a tumor the size of a piece of Hubba bubba.

Hunter #1: Well my friend Bubba checked and he said it ain't no piece of gum.

Doctor: It's not gum, it's a cancerous tumor.

Hunter #1: Bubba told me I need "tumor" opinions.

Doctor #1: It says here on your medical sheet you've been diagnosed by 7 other doctors in the past 18 months.

Hunter #1: Yeah, they was all stupid liars too. I only trust Bubba. He'd do anything fer me. He once sucked rattler juice out my backside back when we was kids.

Doctor: It's stage 4, you have 6 months to live. Some call that "terminal"

Hunter #1: No way that's true. Says right here on the Hunters Trailhead that I'm gonna draw a Wasatch elk tag in 6 years. Now who's lyin' mister bigshot doctor?

Doctor: Good luck with that.

Hunter #2: (whisper as they exit the room) What'd you go and tell him about me sucking out that rattler juice fer?? You said you wusn't gunna tell no one.
 

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