Pull your head out P & Y

[Hooner]

I just finished reading the Eastman?s article with The Cody Robbins Buck. Sweet deer. It appears that Cody Robbins has the World Record Non Typical Mule Deer and Brad Hunter has the World Record Typical Mule Deer. Both deer have been on the cover of Eastman?s in the last 6 months. Both hunters did not want to strip the velvet. ( Good on them) However Pope and Young will only acknowledge the deer for one year if they do not strip the buck. In my opinion this is defacing your trophy.

There is nothing sweeter than arrowing a velvet buck. I know that P & Y is based around the whitetail hunter. My question is when are they going say pop and pull their heads out of their a$$ and acknowledge the mule deer hunters of the West that hunt deer in the velvet? Why don't they create a velvet category and give credit where credit is due?

 

[BigPig]

You are entitled to your opinion, but there are some inaccuracies in your post. First of all there is a velvet category, check a record book. Second of all, P&Y is no more a whitetail club as it is an elk club, or an antelope club, or bear or whatever. Besides, it's not just mule deer that grow velvet antlers. Whiteys do it too and if an early season whitetail were killed that could ptoentially be a new world record, the same rules would apply. There is no conspiracy against the West.

 

[Hooner]

From what I understand there is a velvet category but the animal will only be recognized in the book for five years and then they are taken out of the book. Why don't they just make a velvet category. Who wants to strip the velvet?
I don't think I said anything about a conspiracy I just think that P & Y needs to get with the program. The P & Y book that I have is about 3 inches thick and I would say 2 inches of that book is whitetail related. So you can understand why I would say they cater to whitetails!

 

[BOHNTR]

Let me try and clarify a few things for you with some facts so you might have at least a better understanding of the P&Y and B&C records program.

First off, Mr. Robbins buck is NOT the P&Y world record.....even if it was stripped. There is a process that an animal must go through before that title is earned. No matter what the original measurement is, ALL potential WR animals must be measured by a panel for clarification. Once the panel measures (three different groups of measurers within the panel) the animal and agrees upon the measurement(s), it is then given to the P&Y records chairman for final score and entry. Then, and only then, is it officially a world record and announced at the next P&Y convention. I can't tell you how many times a "world record" has gone to panel and fell short due to errors on original score sheets or mis-measurement. Just last panel, I can think of two incidents where we (panel) had to change scores due to errors and improper point identification. That's why the panel is formed to ensure consistency and to leave no doubt that the measurements are accurate.

As for a velvet category......P&Y has a velvet category for EVERY antlered specie (caribou, whitetail, elk, mule deer, blacktail, moose). They are not ranked and will be published in the very next printing of the record book only. They will remain in the archives (DVD) for permanent entry and are not removed from the records program.

The reason there is no world record category for velvet species is there can only be one world record per specie and non-velvet (hard racked) species are the ones that got the nod. In other words, you can't have two typical world records within P&Y. Keep in mind, B&C accepts NO velvet species of any kind.

While I understand your frustration, you must realize that a lot of magazines have "jumped the gun" in their assessment of this awesome buck. Most magazines like to declare animals world records all the time now, but few (if any) ever really attain that status.......because they're not.....but it sells magazines

As for the Robbins buck, selfishly I wish it was stripped, as I'd love to measure it at the next panel (Spring 2013) in Dallas/Ft. Worth. It is an incredible buck and from the sounds of it, a good hunter as well.

Hope it helps.


BOHNTR )))---------->

 

[Hooner]

BOHNTR, I don't think you really clarified anything for me. Like I said earlier. The velvet animal is recognized once and then taken out of the book. You then put the animal in the records but it is not published in the next book. All because a guy will nor strip the velvet? Really that makes a lot of sense.

Brad Hunter you shot the biggest Typeical Mule Deer ever shot with a bow but you only get to be recognized in the book once. However if you send the deer to our annual meeting to be scored by our panal we wold appreciate it. We wont however recognize it for more than one year. How does that work?

In the article that I read the Cody Robbins buck was scored by three official P & Y scorers. As a group they agreed on the score. You may get sick of hearing the words World Record (as we all are). However, I would bet money that the panal is not going to change the score. If they do P & Y better have a new training course for the "official scorers" The Robbins buck scores 13 1/8 more than the current world record. If they messed up that bad than P & Y has issues.

The biggest frustraion is that you P & Y guys want everything stripped and I feel don't have a true respect for the trophy as is. I think that it is a serious issue that P & Y should address. It is my opinion that P & Y looses credibility by only cleebrating hard horned animals long term when multiple entries every year are in the velvet.

Why can't P & Y Have a velvet category for each animal?

 

[longshooter338]

VELVET SUCKS !!!!!!

[email protected]
[email protected]


'IT AINT EASY BEING ME'

 

[BOHNTR]

Quote: "Brad Hunter you shot the biggest Typeical Mule Deer ever shot with a bow but you only get to be recognized in the book once."

Well, perhaps your reason for entering an animal is not the same as mine. It's to honor a truly impressive ANIMAL taken by means of bow and arrow....NOT to recognize the hunter. And again, it remains in the records program forever (DVD), which accompanies all record books now.

Quote: "However, I would bet money that the panal is not going to change the score."

They may not, however with non-typical antler configurations, history has shown discrepancies (or judgement on certain points) have surfaced with both P&Y and B&C measurers. It's not a science, something that many need to understand at times.

Quote: "The biggest frustraion is that you P & Y guys want everything stripped and I feel don't have a true respect for the trophy as is."

If the P&Y Club wanted everything stripped (like B&C) why would they have a velvet category?

Quote: "It is my opinion that P & Y looses credibility by only cleebrating hard horned animals long term when multiple entries every year are in the velvet. Why can't P & Y Have a velvet category for each animal?"

Again, P&Y has a category for velvet entries. They appear in the record book one time, they are NOT removed from the records program after that. They remain in the archive DVD which will show every entry accepted into the records program. You may not agree with it, and I understand that, especially being a bowhunter myself who has taken quite a few velvet animals over the years. However, I do realize and agree that one world record per specie is appropriate. I know the rules going into the game and have no desire to change them to meet my personal needs.

I guess the same argument could be made with B&C, as early rifle hunts afford some hunters to take tremendous trophies while in velvet. Should B&C make a velvet category exclusively for them? I don't think so. If they want the animal entered into B&C they will have to strip the velvet. If the hunter chooses not to do so, that's their choice as well. It doesn't take anything away from the animal. I do believe those who want to change the rules to fit their needs are maybe entering animals for the wrong reason. JMO.


BOHNTR )))---------->

 

[bearman]

I don't believe that if someone doesn't agree with how P&Y or B&C runs their program they are out for their own agenda. I think most hunters out there today have opinions that differ from those two record programs. I to believe the animal should stay in the book "not on dvd" for ever. The animal already has a 2% deduction to be entered. So why do we have to have a separate categories? People can have different opinions and feel just as strongly for the records program. I feel there are several people I know in the program that are in it for the wrong reasons. The two where started years ago and maybe there are things that should have been done different in the scoring system. Maybe not also, but I don't think they would ever change even if there was a better way.

 

[Hooner]

>Well, perhaps your reason for entering
>an animal is not the
>same as mine. It's
>to honor a truly impressive
>ANIMAL taken by means of
>bow and arrow....NOT to recognize
>the hunter. And again,
>it remains in the records
>program forever (DVD), which accompanies
>all record books now.

BOHNTR,
What I am talking about has nothing to do with my reason for entering a record. I do not have a world record animal
(Unfortunately). If you ask me P&Y is to recognize both the deer and the hunter. What sucks about such impressive velvet animals is that after one year they are thrown in a file and in all honesty filed away so that future generations will not be able to appreciate the animal. Per your words above the P&Y is to recognize the animal.

So why does the P & Y take the velvet animal out after one year? If what you say is correct and it is about recognizing the animal why is the velvet animal taken out after one year.

When you compare the P&Y to B&C it is like comparing apples and oranges. You can't even compare the two. Very few animals are killed with a rifle in the velvet every year. You can't say the same thing about bow hunting. The majority of the hunt dates in the west are dates when the mule deer are in the velvet.

My point is P&Y needs to reevaluate how they are recognizing the velvet animals. One year really does not cut it.

 

[BOHNTR]

>The animal
>already has a 2% deduction
>to be entered. So why
>do we have to have
>a separate categories?

Your information is incorrect. Velvet entries into the P&Y records program does not have a 2% deduction.


BOHNTR )))---------->

 

[velvetfvr]

I will never strip a muley of its velvet to be scored. They should change the rules because even though you can't get a ACCURATE measurement which you probably could if he was shot right around the time the antlers were done growing it would be close. If it is going to be the number 1 then put it at number 1. Just because it has fuzzy stuff on the antlers doesn't make it different. I love velvet muleys and I would rather shoot one over a hard horned buck. It just makes no sense because it has velvet.

 

[BOHNTR]

Hooner:

I do agree with you that it would be nice to see ALL the species (velvet and hard horned) in the same publication, volume after volume. Unfortunately, the book would need a cart to carry around, as it would be too large to carry.

I have brought up that it would be nice to have the top 50 velvet entries listed in the book, volume after volume. New entries would still remain in only one published book that fall short of the top 50. However, this idea did not pass board approval.

I think what's confusing me is your terminology of "one year" in the record book. You realize that a velvet entry appears in one "published" book.....which is not printed yearly but every SIX years. So a velvet entry will be in the current book for six years.....or when the next book is published. However, after that, it will be removed from printing and be archived on the DVD.

As the "book" grows larger, you may see where DVD's or other modern media type books (electronic) will be the only way to view records in the future. Time will tell. Hope it helps and good luck in your hunting seasons.

BOHNTR )))---------->

 

[llamapacker]

velvetfvr hit on the real reason for stripping velvet - Accuracy.
Measuring bone as compared to measuring velvet covered antlers will give a variation in score. It is also remarkably easy to inject material under the velvet, further inflating scores. It should be obvious to all that velvet covered racks will have greater mass measurements, and even determining the end of the point is more subjective. The intention is to compare apples to apples.
While I may never strip the velvet off some of my trophies, I fully suuprt and understand the rationale behind P+Y and B+C policies. If you really get involved with these organizations and see the lengths some so-called sportsmen go to alter their trophies, you would better understand the need to stand firm on these policies.
Bill

 

[Avsman]

I think it just goes to show you what kind of hunters both these men are, They would rather have a velvet covered trophy on their wall till the day they die and in the record book for 1 edition instead of a fake velvet covered buck and in the record book till someone shoots a bigger one. I applaud both these hunters because I believe they care more about the animal they killed than their own name is some book great job on two great trophies and I would more than welcome you at my camp any day.

 

[BCBOY]

I think this bothers the OP more than the hunters that killed those bucks. I read the exact same article on Cody's buck. It didn't seem like he was bothered by HIS decision. I know if it was me, it would have been a hard decision especially after seeing that amazing reproduction in full velvet. The taxidermist did an unreal job making a set of fake antlers covered in fake velvet look remarkably REAL. Cody could have easily stripped the buck, had it go to panel and officially entered as the P&Y Worlds Record and then had the fake velvet put on afterwards. But.... he choose not to. You can't blame the P&Y for having the rules that they do.

 

[PleaseDear]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-12 AT 06:41PM (MST)[p]I could understand you complaining if it was YOUR Velvet Buck.

The P&Y rules have been in place on Velvet Muleys and Velvet Elk for quite some time.

I just do not see your avenue for disrespect of the P&Y rules/guidelines.

Hang in there---

Robb

 

[PCPython]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-12 AT 06:17PM (MST)[p]+1 Avsman.

 

[KillaB]

I have two bucks mounted in velvet that made Pope and Young. Although I don't agree with stripping the velvet simply to keep your name in the books, I do understand the apples to apples comparison. In my honest opinion, record keeping is suppose to be for harvest information based on region(State/Unit) if your score holds up of course.
Through the last several years of measuring deer for my Taxidermist just for knowledge, I find that the scoring method is extremely flawed anyhow.

1. Why is there an inside spread credit anyways if we're suppose to be comparing bone.

2. Mass measurements on tines get no respect especially on a great buck with palmation, do you realize that there are 6 mass measurements on the main beam alone, why???

3. Deductions for Typical bucks without any extra points make no sense. Gross Typical score should also equal Net Typical score.

There are a few other scoring imperfections on other animals that were improperly deducted for no reason, I can't list it all here, but my point is that a great Trophy on the wall deserves all the alccolades for what it is and not for what the scoring system tells you. Congrats to Cody and hope he never strips the Velvet.

 

[kingfish]

Who gives a crap!!! Have them mounted, put them on your wall and enjoy them for the rest of your life!!! Who gives a shiz about book records!!!


Government doesn't fix anything and has spent trillions proving it!!!
Let's face it...After Monday and Tuesday, even the calender says WTF!

 

[need4x4]

Forgive me for the following comments. I know some people really like velvet, that is great for them. I don't wish to take that away from them.

However,

Many people know or think they know that mule deer in velvet and mule deer without velvet are not the same.

I think that is the difference and the reason why there are differences in the record books.

The book is for hard horned bucks primarily. I don't think you should be able to strip the velvet and they go up against someone who killed a buck already hard horned.

Sure, some will disagree, but in the end they should be seperate.

 

[TOPGUN]

kingfish (5297 posts)
Feb-20-12, 09:32 AM (MST)
18. "RE: Pull your head out P & Y"
Who gives a crap!!! Have them mounted, put them on your wall and enjoy them for the rest of your life!!! Who gives a shiz about book records!!!

AMEN kingfish! The "BOOK" and records is one of the big problems facing hunting today IMHO. I could care less if an animal scores 200" or 210", and as far I'm concerned they should wipe all the inches out of every friggin record book and just post a picture of the animal and show when/where it was taken and not even have the hunter's name!!!

 

[FishlakeElkHunter]

Kingfish.....+10000

I think it SELFISH to worry so much about the "books"!!! If you like the animal...shoot it...put it on the wall....and enjoy the memories!!!!

 

[pokemindalungs]

I agree with the last couple posts! -I could care less about having my trophies in books.-

However I think many people are over assuming in thinking that this buck would beat the score of the current world record.

In velvet it scores 13 inches bigger, but typically a large (velvet)non-typical will lose 5 to 7% in score when stripped. If you do the math, it could be very close or it could come up a few inches smaller if it was stripped!

Example is Houdini: 322 velvet gross and 304 gross after stripped. Thats about a 6% loss in score.

Awesome buck and I also admire him for not stripping the velvet.