Utah RAC Request

cantkillathing

Very Active Member
Messages
1,455
Okay, utah went to 30 units to get away from blanket managing the deer herds and to try and micromanage each individual unit. My concern is that we will continue the blanket aproach.

WE should be asking that the Southern unit RAC only discuss the units in their Region. The Southeaster RAC only discuss the units in their Region. Central RAC only discuss the units in their Region. The Northern RAC only discuss the units in their region, and Northeaster discuss units in their region. Right now we have Each RAC voting on all 30 units, to me I dont think the Norther RAC should vote on any issue dealing with the southern Unit and vis versa.

The reason behind 30 units is to access each unit and find its idividual needs. The way this should be handled is with local imput in the units, and local biologist, meetings with the public in those units, discussing harvest objectives, population counts, buck to doe ratio, habitat issues, ect...

Right now mass emails are being sent out about buck to doe ratio, and to be honest I bet these people sending the emails are only really concerned about the area in which they hunt, the emails again are reflecting a blanket aproach.

Send emails demanding the RAC manage the units in their REGION.

Thanks,
 
In 2010 in Dec. the Wild Life Board voted to go 30 units and to have 18 to 25 Bucks to 100 does in 2012, now the new Board and DWR want to change it, they don't want to even try it to see if it will work, so why won't they respect the old Board vote ?? Why not try it, it might work.
 
can't

I couldnt agree more this blanket crap obliously hasnt worked and the damn buck doe ratio needs to be done away with its obliously not sound and has had piss poor results. Each unit has its problems and RACS should deal with their regions that only makes sense.

GET RID OF THE DAMN BUCK DOE RATIO. Theres plenty of years of proof showing it does not work.
 
So are you saying that people only hunt in the region they live? I rarely hunt in the region I live in. The animals in the south don't belong to a southerner any more than they do someone from the Northeast.

On the flip side, it may be reasonable to have RACs only voting and considering issues within their regions, but public input should be considered on a statewide basis.

http://unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
Tree

Public opinions statewide are welcome/warranted but I thought this thread was more geared to RACS micro managing the regions they represent with input from all Utahns.

Perhaps I was wrong?
 
Tree you should have your input, if you want your input in a specific unit then attend that RAC meeting and give your imput. Or in todays world email the RAC members and give your imput, on that specific unit.
 
I emailed a lot of people on a mass email. I didn't speak to any of the specific units, but I did ask them to consider a lower BtoD ratio on units that could support them (if deemed okay by the biologists). I also told them if the biologists felt the need for a higher ratio it would be prudent to have a higher ratio. It is that simple. I basically asked them not to use a blanket ratio (which was going to be done at 18-25:100) due to the last Mule Deer Plan that was passed. I'm a UWC member and I never was asked to email specific BtoD ratios to anyone. It is amazing how such a small organization can become hated so quickly :)

I also think I should have a say in all 30 units as with this new management plan I could be switching units each year due to drawing odds.
 
I thought the reason they went to a higher buck/doe ratio is because hunters wanted to see more and a older age class of bucks? I plan on attending the rac meetings to voice my opinion on the subject. But these mass emails that the UWC has put together I think will backfire cause the board members I know are so damn sick of these emails coming threw but when the southern racs last year were held all of the people that actually showed up wanted 30 units micro managed to each specific units needs except the UBA represent(and he didnt care about the needs of the deer population. He just wanted to hunt wherever he wanted).
I'm just glad the board on the southern rac has there act together with the exception of one or two.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-12 AT 04:17PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-12 AT 04:16?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-12 AT 04:14?PM (MST)

>No response Tree,

A few hours, that's the degree of your patience?

If you read my post, I agreed with you that RAC should probably stick to issues within their region unless they are of statewide concern.

I will continue to email the RACs that I feel I want to communicate with, as always.

With that said, shall we start deciding things on a majority basis? On issues effecting the entire state, should the Northern and Central populations dictate policy? After all, roughly 80% of the population resides in these units. Roughly 80% of tax payers. Roughly 80% of license purchasers. Also, if that's the case, shouldn't 6 of the 7 wildlife board members be from the north and Central? Wouldn't this be fair representation to have the bulk of control coming from the bulk of the population?

Just wondering. If not, why?

Lastly, these "mass emails" didn't start with UWC. Ask DC where they started. And, the emails that have come from UWC simply asked for people to get off of their butts and let them know what they wanted.

So I'll say it again to whoever will listen; If you have an opinion on buck to doe ratios, whether they be high, low or in the middle, communicate it with the division and whomever else you think should know.

After we are done with this B/D BS we can get back to concentrating on growing our deer numbers.


http://unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
Hoghunter they better get use to receiving lots of emails because that is part of their job. Listening to the public.
 
Tree,
That's funny on another site Kris claimed the UWC sent stuff out a week in advance of DC sending out any emails? Was is not also the UWC that pushed for the Buck Ratio be dropped and revisited??? No discussion in the RACs at all??? Just rammed through at the WB meeting??? In fact it kinda seems the UWC did exactly this year what they claimed was so evil last year??? In fact they pushed their agenda without as much input in RACS as the options were given last year.

Tree you are correct that the Wastach Front does have high population and the "threat" of the mass population base getting their own way is a very real one. For that reason I would encourage individuals to get involved in the RAC process. Go let your voice and opinions be heard. If you do not then someone else will speak for you. It is well know that many are not concerned with what the locals are seeing, their main concern only lies in the 9 days a year they carry a tag in their pockets then it is back home for more important things.

Intresting thing to ponder. Thanks for pointing out that very real possibility Tree.
 
>Tree,
>That's funny on another site Kris
>claimed the UWC sent stuff
>out a week in advance
>of DC sending out any
>emails?

These are two different instances you are referring to. About 2 weeks ago, UWC sent out an email encouraging members to give input to the regional wildlife managers etc., per the division request. The most recent was in response to DCs emails to RAC and board members sent out on Thursday, neither of which asked anyone to do anything but let them know their thoughts on what the buck to doe ratio should be in THEIR opinion. Besides, balance is good, right?

Once again, everyone should give their input, regardless of perspective.

Have a good day, Cody.


http://unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
Can't,

You missed the train a long time ago. One huge concern about going to 30 units to begin with is that the DWR would not have the resources to effectively manage 30 units.

This was discussed over and over again - and over again.

The reply from opt 2 advocates across the board was "its not perfect but its a step in the right direction." That is all they could say because they knew it was true.

Everyone on both sides saw this coming a mile away.

I guess the next "step in the right direction" is to get more resources for the DWR so they can handle and process all the data and input. Good luck!!!
 
Oh gotcha!!! Kris must have forgot to clarify that in his other post. Thanks for setting that straight. You guys do, do a pretty good job on doing things the division requests.

You have a good day too, Tye!
 
Hog,

When you say " "hunters" wanted to see older...." you are probably talking about the 25% who would hunt a trophy every 5 years according to the survey. Yes, they are the ones who showed up at the RAC meetings.

You ate the lunch of 65% of the guys who would prefer quantity over quality. Now those 65% are voicing their opinions too.

You need not be so bitter at other people saying what they think just because it doesn't jive with your preferences.

As much as 25% of you would like to make this sound like a biology issue, its not, its a preference issue.
 
Smelly,
Are you sure that 65% really care that much either way???? In fact I am not sure that 95%+ would not just go with the flow???? 87,000 general deer tags sold. How many show up at meetings??? Maybe 300 on rare occasion? How many actual emails sent in??? Maybe 2,000-3,000.....maybe???? Both side try and claim the masses. The truth is the masses will actually just go with what ever the crazies fight out amongst ourselves!!!
 
Do you guys realize that the DWR has been managing in these 30 whatever units for ever... the only thing that has changed is the hunting regions... split up from 5 to 30... but still the same management plan just the buck to doe ratio is different
 
SMELLY,
I believe the racs represent the masses and 3 out of 5 racs voted for opt 2. It doesnt take 5 years to draw a hunt to hunt an older age class deer. To be honest even if the UWC crowd gets what they want and drops the buck/doe ratio I have plenty of points in other states to have hunts to tide me over until 5 years down the road when we still have piss poor deer numbers along with biologicly sound 10/100 buck/doe ratio and we have to start this process all over again. Its kinda like Obama in that he has showed people just how bad it can get. Maybe we need the UWC guys to get what they want so we can see just how bad it can get.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-12 AT 09:08PM (MST)[p]Elite,

You can believe the Racks because that suits your preference. I'll believe the direct poll UDWR took to the hunters because that is a more accurate thermometer of hunters.

There is no traction with 10/100. Your exageration jepordizes your credibility. Option 2 smelled a lot like state wide limited entry. Sure nuff, as soon as the 30 units passed, there was another push to increase ratios.

Speaking of Obama, the trophy hunters in this state take every crisis and turn it into a tag cutting oportunity. Just like Obama takes every crisis and turns it into another shopping spree.

By the way, not surprised at all that you are collecting points in every state. If you weren't, option 2 wouldn't sound so great.
 
73,

The poll didn't ask how much people care. I am sure 65% of the hunters polled prefer a lower quality hunt more often over a high quality hunt every 4-5 years.

I guess that leaves people like you and me, the few and the proud, to fight about it all day and all night.

See ya in the mornin'!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-12 AT 09:50PM (MST)[p]My point of this thread was not to point fingers or push any buck to doe ratio agenda. I know that more bucks will not make the deer poplulation any bigger, we have beat the horse to death.
I was not in favor of the 30 units.
Now that we have them the point behind it all was to micomanage each unit to is specific needs. For instance how many of you know what the issue are on the san juan unit that is causing the mule deer to suffer, is it winter range, summer range, habitat, road kiil, predators, etc....
IF we are going to have 30 units then we should focus on the needs of the units. San juan might be over ran by predators, Cache might have winter range issues, strawberry might have summer range issues, i dont know what each unit is suffering from.
I do know that a blanker approach is not working.
Maybe the San Juan unit given how large it is needs a higher buck to doe ratio just to cover the county to breed all the does. Maybe other units might need smaller buck to doe ratios because their winter range is small and the bucks dont have to move much to do the breeding.
So instead of focusing on buck to doe focus on the needs, and by hell I dont know why I would vote on a unit in Northern Utah because I have no clue what the needs are up there.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-12 AT 10:47PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-12 AT 10:41?PM (MST)

>LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-12
>AT 09:50?PM (MST)

>
>My point of this thread was
>not to point fingers or
>push any buck to doe
>ratio agenda. I know
>that more bucks will not
>make the deer poplulation any
>bigger, we have beat the
>horse to death.
>I was not in favor of
>the 30 units.
>Now that we have them the
>point behind it all was
>to micomanage each unit to
>is specific needs. For
>instance how many of you
>know what the issue are
>on the san juan unit
>that is causing the mule
>deer to suffer, is
>it winter range, summer range,
>habitat, road kiil, predators, etc....
>
>IF we are going to have
>30 units then we should
>focus on the needs of
>the units. San juan
>might be over ran by
>predators, Cache might have
>winter range issues, strawberry might
>have summer range issues,
>i dont know what each
>unit is suffering from.
>I do know that a blanker
>approach is not working.
>Maybe the San Juan unit given
>how large it is needs
>a higher buck to doe
>ratio just to cover the
>county to breed all the
>does. Maybe other units
>might need smaller buck to
>doe ratios because their winter
>range is small and the
>bucks dont have to move
>much to do the breeding.
>
>So instead of focusing on buck
>to doe focus on the
>needs, and by hell I
>dont know why I would
>vote on a unit in
>Northern Utah because I have
>no clue what the needs
>are up there.

Great points. IMO, we should be listening to the wildlife managers from these specific regions/units because they have a finger on the pulse of what is hindering herd growth.

But, when it comes to buck to doe ratios and I guess the only caveat would be deer density, the question regarding bucks and does comes down to hunter management and the fact remains that managing hunters becomes a dynamic proposition since we don't all just hunt in our own backyard.

Also, this was one of the biggest issues I had with what the board passed in Dec. of 2010. They said "ok, let's micromanage" and then went ahead and set a blanket buck to doe ratio. My personal push was similar to yours. Now that we have 30 units, let's be smart about it and manage in a comprehensive manor according to the needs of each unit. Maybe units that are habitually low need more tags cut, such as the monroe, Bonanza etc. We learned from a non-division backed implementation of shortened seasons that it didn't accomplish anything. Instead of going out for 2 weekends, hunters hunted the whole hunt and were less picky about their harvest, creating a negligible harvest reduction.

Cutting your arm off because your leg is gangrenous won't ever solve anything, no matter how hard you try.

Thanks for clarifying your intent.


http://unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
>Also, this was one of the
>biggest issues I had with
>what the board passed in
>Dec. of 2010. They said
>"ok, let's micromanage" and then
>went ahead and set a
>blanket buck to doe ratio.

Didn't the DWR only propose one option that had microunits? IMO the DWR were playing games with the rest of them, possibly thinking there is no way the WB will pass this crazy BD ratio range attached to this microunit option 2. The DWR should have had an option 4 with different BD ratios for units. Wouldn't you think they would have known there would be a big problem with having the range so broad at 18-25 when they came up with option 2? Maybe there was stuff behind the scene from the WB, but to me this is how it appeared.

Also IMO, I think there needs to be 3 different BD ratio ranges in this new proposal. 15-17, 18-20, and 21-25. The 21-25 generally reserved for those units that are already close to that range like SW desert, east canyon and Zion. I think they could run into some problems on some of the units with lots of private or CWMU like East Canyon and Zion. No matter how many tags they issue on those 2 units it may not drop the ratios much and it will really hurt the public land ratios on those units in addition to the public land hunters getting mad about having a dismal hunting experience.
 
Some here have stated that the herds should be managed according to the biologists and the science behind that. "Biologically" according to the Central Region Biologists, we need only 6 bucks /100 does. But in my opinion, until herd numbers reach "carrying capacity" having 20 or 25 bucks/100 does is not a "biological" problem and doesn't create winter forage competetion between bucks and fawns. An oversurplus of bucks can hurt a fawns ability to obtain adequate winter feed. So-- it seems to me that until we manage to get the population increasing and the carrying capacity is less than 70%, it won't hurt to have 20+ bucks/100 does. As the poulation increases and begins to flourish then the buck/doe ratio could be dropped down to 15/100(and the subsequent tag increases). There will naturally be more bucks simply because there are more deer. But until then---I see nothing wrong with managing for higher buck/doe ratios.
Also, I think it makes sense for RACs to look more specifically at units within their region than try to "best guess" what should be done or not done in other units not in their region. When ask to vote on any particular item that was a different Region issue I just voted the way the majority of how that particular RAC voted. Also, there are some issues now that the DWR puts on our RAC agenda that is specific to a particular Region that we don't vote on but is only informational only for us. I certainly think that practice could be enlarged.
 
Nebo 12000 is spot on,,,as usual!
I agree 100%.

4aec49a65c565954.jpg
 
>we need only 6 bucks
>/100 does. But in my
>opinion, until herd numbers reach
>"carrying capacity" having 20 or
>25 bucks/100 does is not
>a "biological" problem and doesn't
>create winter forage competetion between
>bucks and fawns. An oversurplus
>of bucks can hurt a
>fawns ability to obtain adequate
>winter feed.


Whoa, whoa and wait a minute. You are never going to build a deer herd on 6% bucks. Whom ever is pitching that is feeding you information that is way out in left field. You really need a minimum of 20% bucks in your herd and if you really want to cover your does you should have a 1:3 (33%) buck ratio.

...and NO, you are not going to hurt wintering fawns with "too many" bucks. If you have a winter forage problem you need to consider the entire herd as the problem, not just the buck segment.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-12 AT 09:00AM (MST)[p]I want to agree with you but those are the figures given to our RAC more than once over the past few years. The forage competetion between bucks and fawns has been stated more than once also. In fact it was brought up in our last RAC meeting in January. It was also publicly stated by Anis our state Big Game biologist. Some of this flies in the face of what I have read in Mule Deer by Valerius Geist. He in fact states that high buck/doe ratios are actually healthy for the growth of deer populations. His contentions are that having a substantional mature buck component in the buck population is sound biologically and is critical for deer populations to flourish. He bases those thoughts, as I understand it, on the type of genetics required for the best outcome in the survival component-- predator avoidance, winter survival techniques, stronger physical attributes, --- in other words the bucks with the best genetics ( usually the ones with the biggest antlers, which are more attractive to does) and are able to pass those characteristics on, give the species the best chance to survive,flourish and adapt.
 
If the problem with Utah general season deer herds was lack of mature bucks, then why are we not seeing HUGE deer production on units like the Henry Mtns, Oak Creeks, Vernon, the San Juan-Elk Ridge, Unit 44/21 in CO, Unit 102/125/G in WY, or even the Strip? I want a mature buck component in our herds, but where is the line drawn?

Also, under the RAC thoughts above- should the Southern RAC vote on moose units that are not within their region? I can see the Regional RACs discussing the biological needs of their units, but when it is a social issue, I feel the social users should have a say no matter where they live. Going off the biological recommendations, anything over 15 bucks per 100 doe is social. Now if the biologists are wrong then ?????? but the data from LTD entry units shows that they are more right than wrong.
 
Geist and the rest publish flowery pie in the sky deer management theory. And, I'm sorry... and I'm trying to be diplomatic here... but I don't consider Anis to be the brightest bulb in the Home Depot lighting section. All this genetic mumbo-jumbo for predator avoidance, big antlers and what ever else they preach is like a gypsy selling snake oil. It gets everyone thinking that the buck component carries all of these positive traits, REMEMBER, it take two to tango... you need a doe too. She is carrying 50% of the genetic material also. There are two other factors that go into making a trophy buck... forage and just plain living long enough to be a trophy (remember... that yearling 2pt that you watched breed a doe may be carrying trophy genes... just because he died under the hunters gun as a 2pt doesn't mean the genetics have not been passed on). But before I digress and leave the main topic here...

Back to buck doe ratios... if you don't believe me, try googling buck/doe ratios and see what other managers, especially those on private ranches who make their salary off of deer, say about it. You will find that most agree with my statement of numbers. In fact, many want 1:1 numbers. If you dig out history, which Anis and the RAC apparently can't do, or they have a reading disability or something, (reading the old annual big game reports) you will find that prior to 1983 Utah's doe/fawn ratio was much higher than it is now. On many units the doe fawn ratio exceeded 100 fawns per 100 does. If you question this, remember that many does have twins. Around the "big winter" of 1983 the fawn rations began to fall. Now if you get 60 to 70 fawns per 100 does you think you are having a great day!

Given all other factors, the reason for this drop in fawn numbers should point to a huge red flag... and the number one suspect is that your does are not being covered at the critical time they are supposed to be. A doe is only in estrus for about 24 to 48 hours. If she is not covered in that window then she does not come back in again for around 17 to 22 days. If still not covered the cycle repeats itself again. So, let's throw all of the college educated science out the window and go back to good ol' fashioned ranching. The optimum time of breeding is the end of November. The rut peaks about Thanksgiving time... and the peak of the does dropping their fawns is around June 15th every year. This is the way a thousands of years of natural selection set thing up to work. That June window is a time when the forage is most nutritious and succulent and the does can lactate well for the fawns. The general weather pattern for that time of year is also fairly cool. Late fawns literally cook in hot weather.

Sooo... given the above information you can see what is happening if a doe is not bread at the optimal time. If she is missed on the first go round now she isn't covered till the middle of December, if not then she won't be visited until almost January, in which case her fawn will be born in the heat of late Jully and if it survives, that it will go into the winter at roughly the size and weight of my Lab retriever. Not good for survival.
 
Packout... you don't want to get HUGE populations confused with healthy populations. Some of the units you are mentioning are not the best units for "trophy" deer. For instance the Vernon unit. The Vernon had a hay-day of deer production during the wetter weather cycle of the 80's prior to it being designated a "limited entry" unit. (notice it does not say anywhere in the DWR documentation that any of these are "trophy" units, just hunter number limited). The Vernon is what I call a winter range unit (the Strip and San Jaun might fall into this same classification). That is the Vernon has no high mountain summer range like say, the Manti, Fishlake or Monroe. When the state gets a drought these types of units take a beating. Not only is the vegetation poor, but there is just flat nothing to drink.

I'm sorry... I don't have a great answer for the Henry. It has never been a highly productive area, but what survives there gets a chance to grow because of it's remoteness. I have been watching this area closely because I wanted to see what effect the fire would have on it. Here we are several years after and I don't see much change in the deer component there. If someone else sees it differently please chime in.
 
>If you dig out history,
>which Anis and the RAC
>apparently can't do, or they
>have a reading disability or
>something, (reading the old annual
>big game reports) you will
>find that prior to 1983
>Utah's doe/fawn ratio was much
>higher than it is now.


What were the estimated buck to doe ratios in these big game reports?

So in your opinion, what was significant about "83" that changed the capability of herds to have higher fawn to doe ratios? Deer density?

Can we quantify healthy deer density in relation to buck/Doe ratios? Such as X deer per sq. mi. vs. X number of bucks per hundred does? Or is this just speculation and under studied?

http://unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-12 AT 12:38PM (MST)[p]JustaMacguy- But you are making my point-- bucks are not what is suppressing those deer herds. Habitat, weather, maybe predators, but not bucks. I will agree that on a few general season units-very few units, that bucks may be a part of a herd's recruitment problem. I would also not put much stock in some of the studies you mention dealing with Whitetails as whitetails are not mule deer.

The Henry Mtns herd has stagnated and fallen- even though it received $millions in habitat improvements, fires and predator control The Book Cliffs herd is down. The San Juan herd is fragment of what it was- even after decades of limited entry, micro-buck-management.

People gotta get past this buck issue and find out where are all the FAWNS going? Are they born too late, even on the LTD units? Are predators eating them all? Is the habitat not providing the nutrition needed to raise them? FAWNS! FAWN RECRUITMENT! In 2009, the system was forced to focus on bucks, all while the our fawns keep disappearing.....

At any rate, we all show passion for mule deer and the health of the herds should always come first.
 
About two weeks ago I watched a buck that had already dropped its antlers breed a doe five times and there was no doubt that she was standing for him.

I've watched this same herd go down hill. There has been three or four mature bucks and a hand full of yearling bucks trying to breed a couple of hundred does.

I have noticed fawns with spots as late as Aug. Does with fawns have to stay close to water. There is not a lot of water in some of the areas this herd spreads out into come summer. Predators hang close to the water and have three batches of fawns to eat instead
of one.

This is in the Beaver Unit. I made my recommendation for the higher
ratio. For what it's worth.
 
I'm just pulling one unit out of the book. It's the 12 Mile Canyon area near Mayfield.

Year Bucks/100 does Fawns/100 does (post season)
1975 36 67
1976 19 103
1977 22 99
1978 18 98
1979 15 107
1980 7 96
1981 12 84
1982 14 84
1983 12 75

Now... don't go grabbing the anomalies here, such as the 1980 count. There will always be some variables and I don't know why that year has the discrepancy. Another factor to consider here is, and I hope I can explain this right, these counts are to set up a trend. There may actually be more bucks out there than what you are actually counting, but you don't see them because of vegetative cover or their coming out more at nocturnal times, etc. What the count does is set up a trend. In other words, I saw more or less deer this year than last. Does that make sense? I can try to explain it further if need be. So, if you look at the overall trend you can see that as the buck/100 doe numbers start to come down the fawn numbers are also following.

Three things happened leading up to '83. #1: All across the west the practice of clear chaining had a full head of steam. This started in the late '60s and range mangers were using it everywhere. Everybody thought they were doing a good thing for deer and livestock. It was good for livestock and elk... not so good for deer. General deer numbers started to tip around '75. Not just in Utah, but across the west. Hunters in Utah weren't happy and partitioned the legislature for the "Buck Only" hunting law for general season. It sounds logical... hey, bucks can breed more than one doe and we are protecting the fawn bearing segment of the herd. Right. Well, kind of. If we were going to do that we should have dropped the number of tags by at least 40% (and this is a best guess number based on 1960 to middle '70s harvest data). Why? because now you are telling all those hunters that would have shot a doe and went home that now they have to harvest a buck. As of 1975 we almost doubled the hunting pressure on buck deer. You can guess what the is going to do to the buck population over time... and now we're there.

The final reason I pull '83 out of the hat is that it was the winter of the 100 year storm. If you remember it, deer were forced into the valleys in huge numbers and the media had a hay day with it. People were sending box cars of hay and letters filled with money to feed the deer. My personal opinion is that the deer never really bounced back from that winter like they should have, and the winter of '91 was worse than '83, but the media never got involved so nobody knew the deer were actually in a worse predicament.

As for managing for deer numbers per square mile that will only work if you know what your forage base is and can adjust for it. In the olden days that is the way the DWR, then the Fish & Game, managed. They were doing range inventories, range rides, deer counts and weighing all the data and trying to make the best decision on what the range would hold. If the range looked bad you shot does post season. If the range looked good you backed off and tried to build herd numbers. THEN came the "cowboy caucus". There was a big push from agriculture and they ran a bunch of their members for the legislature and got them elected. Nothing wrong with that, that's how democracy works. However, at this time the feeling in agriculture was that the DWR was running too many critters that were getting a free ride on the farmers land when they needed to feed their own livestock. Add to this the fact that the BLM and USFS were kicking ranchers off of federal ground and you had a very volatile situation. The legislative solution? Mandate that the DWR write management plans stating what the numbers of elk and deer would be on any given unit regardless of what the habitat condition is. Go under your numbers and you can either build the herd or amend your plan to fewer numbers, but it you go over, regardless of the available habitat, you better be shooting animals or you are breaking the law.

Man.. I haven't typed this much since my college days.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-12
>AT 12:38?PM (MST)

>

>People gotta get past this buck
>issue and find out where
>are all the FAWNS going?
> Are they born too
>late, even on the LTD
>units? Are predators eating
>them all? Is the
>habitat not providing the nutrition
>needed to raise them?
>FAWNS! FAWN RECRUITMENT!
>In 2009, the system was
>forced to focus on bucks,
>all while the our fawns
>keep disappearing.....

Packout... you need to read closely what I posted. While there are many factors that affect deer some of the big ones are habitat, the number of bucks, sedation and our highways.

When you want to know where the fawns went you need to look at the ability of the members of you herd to get the sperm and egg together nothing happens if one or the other is missing. Despite what our wives say, especially around hunting season, the miracle of life doesn't happen with out us.

So let me put this fawn mortality in the order that it happens:
1. The fawns that never were because the does never got covered.
2. The fawns that died in the summer because they were born too late for optimum survival.
3. All fawns that are killed by predators after being dropped.
4. The fawns that were dropped too late in the summer yet made it to winter and will die because they didn't have a chance to put on enough fat before the season.
5. All the fawns that die from other mortality (cars, fences, domestic dogs or disease).

Read Castnshoot's account of watching a late doe being bread. She's either way, way out of the normal cycle or, most likely, she couldn't find a lover.
 
Just some other info that might be good to throw into the mix--
At the last RAC meeting Wildlife Services was there and gave us some info concerning predator/deer. In the ongoing studies of radio collared deer, they have found so far that coyotes were responsible for about 70% of fawn deaths. Cougars were the main culprits in adult deer deaths (of those killed by a predator) One of their assumptions is that coyotes are targeting fawns because of the lack of mice, moles jackrabbits etc. Back in the 60's there were tons of jackrabbits ( Some of us were actually encouraged by wheat farmers to spend a few hours at night and shoot every jack we could-- we killed upwards of 200 on several ocassions, remember this was also during the time 1080 poison was used to control predators)So it seems as though we are dealing with a situtation that coyotes are now using fawns as an alternate prey base ot survive. He also said that 70% of coyotes must be removed from any particular area in order to have any impact on decreasing predation on fawns. That is alot of coyotes. They killed nearly 2300 last year - much of that was done on the southern units, like the Henrys etc. It hardly put a dent in the population though, according to them. Some years they have killed over 5000. I think this just goes to show that this is one area that could possibly be of great help in getting fawn survival incresing. In some areas the herd numbers are so low that predation just keeps the deer population at a level that it can't break out and out produce the predation/mortality factor.If you can understand the math of it you will know what I mean.
 
nebo12000:

Just a quesiton:

You are the representative for the sportsman of the Central Region. You represent if not the largest number of sportsman, then the second largest group of sportsman in the State of Utah. Many of these sportsman travel outside of the region to hunt. If you focus only on Central Region units and issues, are you representing the sportsman of the Central Region in an effective manner.

That is just a question, not an accusation.

You might not be the local expert, but you are the voice for Central Region sportsman.

I would prefer that our local reps worked with the other local reps to provide a wide range of opportuinities. With 30 units I would think that if they talked and work together, rather than focusing solely on their own backyards we will all benefit.

We are all in this together, it is not a regional problem and we need a statewide solution.
 
>nebo12000:
>
>Just a quesiton:
>
>You are the representative for the
>sportsman of the Central Region.
> You represent if not
>the largest number of sportsman,
>then the second largest group
>of sportsman in the State
>of Utah. Many of
>these sportsman travel outside of
>the region to hunt.
>If you focus only on
>Central Region units and issues,
>are you representing the sportsman
>of the Central Region in
>an effective manner.
>
>That is just a question, not
>an accusation.
>
>You might not be the local
>expert, but you are the
>voice for Central Region sportsman.
>
>
>I would prefer that our local
>reps worked with the other
>local reps to provide a
>wide range of opportuinities.
>With 30 units I would
>think that if they talked
>and work together, rather than
>focusing solely on their own
>backyards we will all benefit.
>
>
>We are all in this together,
>it is not a regional
>problem and we need a
>statewide solution.


GREAT points, BlueGoat. I've hunted in every region of our state multiple times and I think hunting multiple regions is more common than not amongst deer hunters.






Here's an excerpt from a study done in Colorado on cutting buck harvest vs. fawn recruitment. It's log, but useful in the context of this conversation.


Effect of limited antlered harvest on mule deer sex and age ratios
Chad J. Bishop, Gary C. White, David J. Freddy, and Bruce E. Watkins
Abstract
Key words
In response to apparent declining mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus) numbers in Colorado during the 1990s, buck harvest limitations were identified as a possible mech- anism to increase fawn:doe ratios and hence population productivity. Beginning in 1991, the Colorado Division of Wildlife (CDOW) reduced buck harvest in 4 deer management units to provide quality hunting opportunities. We examined effects of limited harvest on December ratios of bucks:100 does and fawns:100 does using data from limited and unlimited harvest units. Annual buck harvest was reduced by 359 bucks (SE = 133) in limited harvest units as a result of limiting licenses. Fawn:doe ratios declined by 7.51 fawns:100 does (SE = 2.50), total buck:doe ratios increased by 4.52 bucks:100 does (SE = 1.40), and adult buck:doe ratios increased by 3.37 bucks:100 does (SE = 1.04) in response to limited harvest.

Based on our analysis, factors other than buck harvest were regulating population productivity, and limiting buck harvest to enhance fawn recruit- ment is not justified in Colorado. Limited buck harvest should be considered an issue of quality hunting opportunity rather than deer productivity.

age ratio, buck:doe ratio, Colorado, fawn:doe ratio, limited harvest, mule deer, Odocoileus hemionus, productivity, quality hunting, sex ratio
Declining December fawn:doe ratios of mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus) in Colorado during 1975?1995 were hypothesized as being caused by a coincident decline in buck:doe ratios. White et al. (2001) concluded that the effect of buck:doe ratios on subsequent fawn:doe ratios was not adequate to explain the downward trend in population produc- tivity. Other studies also failed to demonstrate a strong relationship between sex ratios and age ratios the following year (Haywood et al. 1987, Horejsi et al. 1988, McCulloch and Smith 1991). Regardless, segments of the hunting public have expounded on the importance of maintaining rela- tively high buck:doe ratios (e.g., 25 bucks:100 does post-harvest) to assure reproductive success. Two interrelated questions subsequently arose: whether fawn production and survival could be increased by limiting buck harvest, and whether factors other than mature buck:doe ratios were affecting popula-
tion productivity. Increasing mature male:female ratios could optimize timing and reduce duration of rut, increase pregnancy rates, and perhaps enhance fitness of offspring because more mature males would be available for breeding and ungulate social systems would be more natural (Bubenik 1985, Ozoga and Verme 1985, Noyes et al. 1996, Noyes et al. 2002). If factors such as habitat quality, disease, weather events, or predation were limiting produc- tivity, then higher mature male:female ratios should have little effect on fawn production and survival.


Decisions to limit buck harvest generally are based on 2 main objectives: provide quality hunting oppor- tunity for older age-class animals and/or increase pop- ulation productivity. Reduced buck harvest generally leads to increased buck:doe ratios and an older age structure of bucks in a population but does not nec- essarily equate to enhanced productivity. We define quality as reduced hunting pressure, increased hunter
Address for Chad J. Bishop and Bruce E. Watkins: Colorado Division of Wildlife, 2300 South Townsend Avenue, Montrose, CO 81401, USA; present address for Bishop: 317 West Prospect Road, Fort Collins, CO 80526, USA; e-mail: [email protected]. Address for Gary C. White: Department of Fishery and Wildlife Biology, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523, USA. Address for David J. Freddy: Colorado Division of Wildlife, 317 West Prospect Road, Fort Collins, CO 80526, USA.
Wildlife Society Bulletin 2005, 33(2):662?668 Peer refereed
Effect of limited harvest on deer ratios ? Bishop et al. 663
success, and increased numbers of older bucks in the harvest. Management for quality harvest opportuni- ties is based primarily upon social and economic considerations, and has been successful on private, tribal, and public lands when local community sup- port was obtained. Conversely, limiting buck harvest to enhance productivity should address some identi- fiable biological issue. Deer managers should clearly distinguish between these 2 management objectives concerning buck harvest to avoid confusion among hunters and the public.
Past research has demonstrated that some hunters do not consider harvest or size of buck harvested to be major factors affecting their overall hunt satisfaction (Potter et al. 1973, Brown et al. 1977, Decker et al. 1980, Langenau et al. 1981). In 1991, 87% of surveyed Colorado deer hunters expressed satisfaction with harvesting any deer, whether male or female, and these hunters also expressed a desire to manage only 20% of the mule deer hunting opportunity for limited harvest (Freddy et al. 1993). Similarly, in a 1999 survey, only 17% of Colorado deer hunters desired a manage- ment system that maximized trophy hunting, and a majority preferred management for maximum hunting opportunity to avoid constraints on partic- ipation (Fix et al. 2001). However, Colorado hunters and other wildlife enthusiasts appear to be supportive of harvest limitations and therefore reduced hunting opportunity if such restrictions are needed to increase deer population productivi- ty (Malmsbury 1999). Assessing whether limiting harvest of adult males improves fawn production and survival is needed for management decisions that affect hunter participation.
Colorado Division of Wildlife (CDOW) restricted buck harvest in 4 management units in western Colorado during the early 1990s to manage a por- tion of the mule deer resource for quality hunting opportunity. Unlimited harvest was maintained in all other management units in the mountainous region of Colorado through 1998. In 1999 CDOW limited buck harvest in all units, primarily to increase population productivity. The level of har- vest reductions varied by unit, depending on public comment, but were less restrictive than those implemented in the 4 quality harvest management units. Here we evaluate buck:doe and fawn:doe ratios between quality harvest and unlimited har- vest units from 1983 through 1998 to assess whether harvest reductions implemented in 1999 were likely to increase population productivity.


Study area
Colorado has been divided into 54 data analysis units (DAUs) to manage mule deer hunting, with each DAU comprising >1 game management unit (GMU). A DAU is the smallest spatial unit at which a population or herd can be defined, although some interchange of deer occurs between adjacent DAUs throughout the state. Also, management pre- scriptions sometimes vary among GMUs within DAUs. Prior to 1999 DAU D-19 consisted of 1 GMU (61) managed as a limited buck harvest unit and a second GMU (62) managed as an unlimited buck harvest unit. For our analysis we treated these GMUs as 2 separate DAUs (D-61 and D-62). We included D-61 in the analysis because no DAU rep- resented a closed population, D-61 was larger than some DAUs, and the purpose of our analysis was to evaluate limited buck harvest as it was implement- ed by CDOW.


We conducted our analyses on DAUs west of Interstate 25, which encompassed the mountain- ous portion of Colorado and contained most of the state?s mule deer. The 4 DAUs with limited buck harvest were D-3, D-6, D-14, and D-61. Limited buck harvest was not implemented simultaneously in the 4 DAUs but began in 1991 in D-6, 1992 in D- 14 and D-61, and 1995 in D-3. Unlimited buck hunting existed in all other DAUs during 1983?1998 (Figure 1).
Figure 1. Location of mule deer data analysis units (DAUs) west of Interstate 25 in Colorado. Shaded DAUs (D-3, D-6, D-14, D- 61) received limited buck harvest treatments during the early 1990s. Non-shaded DAUs did not receive harvest treatments and were managed for unlimited buck harvest. DAUs east of Interstate 25 were excluded because they comprise plains habi- tats with low mule deer densities and were managed different- ly from intermountain DAUs.


664 Wildlife Society Bulletin 2005, 33(2):662?668
Limited buck hunting DAUs represented the diversity of Colorado?s mule deer habitats. Winter ranges varied from high-elevation sagebrush (Artemisia tridentata) parks to low-elevation piny- on?juniper (Pinus edulis?Juniperus osteosper- ma). Summer-range habitats included alpine, conifer?meadow (Pinus contorta, Picea engel- mannii), spruce?subalpine fir (Picea spp.?Abies lasiocarpa), aspen (Populus tremuloides), oak- brush (Quercus gambelii), and ponderosa pine (Pinus ponderosa). In relative terms winters were cold in D-3, moderate in D-6 and D-14, and mild in D-61. Average snowfall was greater in D-3 and D-14 than in D-6 and D-61.



Methods
Harvest surveys
Harvest surveys were performed annually using a questionnaire mailing (1983?1987) or telephone survey (1988?1998) (White 1993, Steinert et al. 1994). Sample-size calculations were based on α = 0.05 and an assumed success ratio of 0.50. On aver- age, 30% of hunters were randomly sampled in each limited harvest DAU where the number of license holders was known. An average of 27% of hunters statewide were randomly sampled to estimate har- vest in unlimited DAUs.


Age- and sex-ratio surveys
Helicopter surveys to measure post-harvest age and sex ratios in DAUs were performed during December or early January. Most of the data were collected by flying nonrandom routes in areas known to be inhabited by deer and classifying all animals encountered. Deer were classified as fawns, does (antlerless), or bucks (antlered). Bucks were further classified as yearling or adult based on antler size and number of points. Total buck:doe, adult buck:doe, and fawn:doe ratios were calculat- ed for each DAU and entered into the CDOW statewide Deer, Elk, and Antelope Management (DEAMAN) database.

We used data from 270 post-harvest ratio surveys in 23 of the 44 DAUs west of Interstate 25. Each DAU in the analysis had >8 surveys,and each survey comprised >1 helicopter flights and <40 hours of helicopter time. Mean number of deer classified per DAU survey was 2,011 (SD = 1,661, min = 297, max = 12,201). Surveys met the sample-size crite- rion of 500 animals proposed by Czaplewski et al. (1983) 97% of the time.

Statistical methods
We used PROC MIXED in SAS (Littell et al. 1996, SAS Institute Inc. 1997) to measure the effect of lim- ited licenses on buck harvest. This analysis was necessary because harvest across all DAUs declined during the 1990s, and the analysis isolated the por- tion of harvest declines attributable to limited licenses. Number of males harvested was the dependent variable, and harvest treatment (limited buck harvest vs. unlimited buck harvest), DAU, and year were the independent variables in a mixed model. Harvest treatment and DAU were treated as fixed effects and year as a random effect. The year variance component was estimated using the max- imum likelihood method (ML).

We then used PROC MIXED (Littell et al. 1996) to determine what effect reduced buck harvest had on age and sex ratios. Observed fawn:doe, total buck:doe, and adult buck:doe ratios were depend- ent variables in a mixed model, with year treated as a random effect, and DAU, harvest treatment (limit- ed vs. unlimited buck harvest), and number of har- vested females >14 months old treated as fixed effects. Female harvest declined after buck harvest was limited in 3 of the treatment DAUs and was included in the model to correct the observed post- harvest ratios for number of females harvested. We incorporated staggered entry of treatment DAUs into the analysis by assigning 1 = limited and 2 = unlimited to each DAU each year. Thus, the treat- ment variable was 2 for each DAU each year until
Figure 2. Mule deer buck harvest from 1983?1998 in data analysis units (DAUs) in Colorado where limited harvest treat- ments were implemented during the early 1990s. The black marker (?) indicates when limited harvest was initiated in each DAU.

Effect of limited harvest on deer ratios ? Bishop et al. 665
Figure 3. Raw means of the observed (A) total buck:doe ratios and (B) fawn:doe ratios in treatment and control mule deer data analysis units (DAUs) during 1983?1998 in Colorado. Treat- ment DAUs switched from unlimited harvest to limited harvest during the early 1990s; control DAUs were managed for unlim- ited harvest during all years shown. Harvest was limited in DAU D-6 in 1991 (?), in DAU D-14 and D-61 in 1992 (?), and in DAU D-3 in 1995 (?). limited licenses were implemented, at which point the value was changed to 1 for each subsequent year. The year variance component was again esti- mated via ML. There was no autocorrelation struc- ture in the model across years because DAU was considered a fixed effect and there was only 1 observation per year per DAU.
Selection of the appropriate fixed-effects model structure for the number of females harvested was made with Akaike?s Information Criterion (AICc) corrected for sample size. Akaike weights were used to evaluate the strength of evidence for each competing model, and parameter estimates were calculated using model averaging (Burnham and Anderson 2002).

Results
Mean annual buck harvest in treatment DAUs declined from 788 (SE = 59) bucks pretreatment to 209 (SE = 27) bucks post-treatment (Figure 2), while mean hunter numbers dropped from 3,277 (SE = 222) to 653 (SE = 140). Observed total buck:doe ratios steadily increased in treatment DAUs following implementation of limited harvest, whereas observed fawn:doe ratios did not consis- tently increase (Figure 3).
Reduction in annual buck harvest attributable solely to the harvest treatment was 359 bucks (SE = 133). For analyses evaluating effect of reduced buck harvest on fawn:doe ratios, the best AICc model included DAU and treatment but not female harvest, although some Akaike weight was associated with the model that included female harvest. The best AICc model for determining effect of the treatment on buck:doe ratios included female harvest, yet some Akaike weight was associated with the simpler model that excluded female harvest (Table 1). We therefore used model averaging to estimate the effect of the treatment on fawn:doe and buck:doe ratios. In response to limited buck harvest, fawn:doe ratios declined by 7.51 fawns:100 does (SE = 2.50), while total buck:doe ratios increased by 4.52 bucks:100 does (SE = 1.40) and adult buck:doe ratios increased by 3.37 bucks:100 does (SE = 1.04) (Tables 1 and 2).[u/]







http://unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
JustaMacguy- Maybe you can answer the question I had in this topic 3 days ago (2 days prior to the story above)-- Post 10.

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID30/1568.html

How did that mature doe not get bred earlier? The ratio on my farm is almost 1 buck to 1 doe from Nov to March. Anomalies occur in every unit, in every herd.

Again, your numbers and post shows that bucks are not the problem (in most cases). Those 36 bucks in 1975 produced 103 fawns in 1976. 19 bucks in 1976 produced 99 fawns in 1977. 18 produced 107. 15 got us 96 and 7 got us 84. 12 got us 84 and 14 got us 75. What number of bucks produced that low number of 67 fawns? Why the downward trend? What changed? Habitat, management, competition, counts? Did the horrible winter of 1973 open the room for herd growth? We have many units with 15+ bucks per 100 doe and if those units were running at 96 fawns we would not even be having this discussion. Again, you are putting too much weight on the buck component of the herd. It is like saying Carrot Cake tastes good because of carrots.

For what it is worth, I'd like to see buck numbers in the 16-20 range. I agree with managing on a trend, but simply increasing buck numbers will not change the trend (in most areas). bucks have not changed the trend on the units I listed previously.

Nebo makes a good case that when deer herd numbers are down and predators are up then we will not see deer herd growth. Todd Black wrote a great article about secondary predation, which runs along these lines. Even more, where are the rabbits? Porcupines? The primary prey sources of many predators are in huge decline.

In the early 2000s, the UDWR transplanted bighorn sheep onto Mt Mahogany/Timp. Cats started killing the sheep. In less than a year the UDWR had pounded the cougar population. Any guess on what the deer herd did? Exploded. For 4-5 years. Then the winter of 2007-08 hit and, yep, down they went. So much more than bucks, so much more.....
 
The same thing happened on Willard Peak above Willard and Perry. They thumped the Lions in the late 90's to grow the goat herd. Then in the early 2001-2004 the deer herd exploded. IT was so bad that they gave the orchard and farm people unlimited doe tags. Between the winters and unlimited doe tag the herd is now gone. I find lion kill deer in the remote areas of the Ogden unit all the time.

But the killing of all the lions in the area mage the deer herd exploded.

Remember that the Biologists are taught in our liberal schools. They are taught lies and that is all they feed us. Just like Obama he tells lies on a regular basis and people believe him after hearing the same lie over and over, he must not have a conscience
 
Tree... this is a good discussion... keep it going.

This data from Colorado is interesting, but it has one flaw... they don't tell us what their starting point is on the buck/doe ratio. They state that they increase the buck/doe ratio by 3.37 bucks, but from what? If they already had 25 or 30 buck per 100 does I would say that the impact of increasing the bucks would be insignificant. Your already have enough bucks. By the same token if they only had 5 buck per 100 does and add 3 more bucks that is not enough to get the breading done either.

I would say that if their buck doe ratio is at a minimum above 15 and their fawns are still not surviving they better be looking at habitat and predators.

It would be interesting to know the base they started with. Can you find that out?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-12 AT 12:44PM (MST)[p]>Tree... this is a good discussion...
>keep it going.
>
>This data from Colorado is interesting,
>but it has one flaw...
>they don't tell us what
>their starting point is on
>the buck/doe ratio. They state
>that they increase the buck/doe
>ratio by 3.37 bucks, but
>from what? If they already
>had 25 or 30 buck
>per 100 does I would
>say that the impact of
>increasing the bucks would be
>insignificant. Your already have enough
>bucks. By the same token
>if they only had 5
>buck per 100 does and
>add 3 more bucks that
>is not enough to get
>the breading done either.
>
>I would say that if their
>buck doe ratio is at
>a minimum above 15 and
>their fawns are still not
>surviving they better be looking
>at habitat and predators.
>
>It would be interesting to know
>the base they started with.
>Can you find that out?
>


I'll see what I can find and post when I get time.

I agree with the "relative" assumption on the starting point, but I think we start getting into extremes when discussions like this come up. In relation to the majority of our units in Utah, we aren't talking about increasing from 6/100 to 15/100, we are talking about 14/100 to 20/100 or 21/100 to 30/100 (examples).

In my opinion would a change from 5/100 to 15/100 change fawn recruitment in some areas? Probably, maybe, uhh, never mind, I'll choose to avoid conjecture on this subject.

I personally think that in areas of lower density, we might want to consider what the effects of buck to doe ratios are having on deer.

Again, it seems that there are all of these ideas floating around, but very little to actually support high (Over 20/100) buck to doe ratios having any kind of substantial impact on herd growth or fawn mortality/recruitment.

Solution? Off hand I'd figure out how to fund further research on an animal that is grossly understudied and very complex, and to educate the public on these findings.

There are a lot of crazy notions floating around and they do NOTHING for deer.



http://unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
Packout... Your argument on predators is valid. But you're doing what I warned should not be done. You can't look at specific year anomalies to make the argument. In that 10 year span I have quoted, do I believe that the count of 36 bucks may have been totally accurate? Maybe not. Do I believe that the count of only 7 bucks was totally accurate? Not really. But we have to recognize that it is what the observer saw when he was there. If I take the counts made over time I start to get a more accurate picture. You need to look at long term averages to start to see a pattern.

It I look at the fawn production of the following year after the buck count (as you suggest) and start averaging in paints a pretty distinct picture.

From the years 1975 to 1979 when buck ratios were above 15 per 100 the average fawn production was 100.6 fawns.

From the years 1980 to 1984 when buck ratios were below 15 per 100 the average fawn production was 81 fawns.

Now, it I throw out the anomaly years of 1975 and 1980...

From the years 1976 to 1979 when buck ratios were above 15 per 100 the average fawn production was 101 fawns.

From the years 1981 to 1984 when buck ratios were below 15 per 100 the average fawn production was 79.5 fawns.

That is a 20% decline when buck ratios are below 15 per 100 either way you figure it. I think that is significant.

Yes, there are other parts to the puzzle, but no puzzle is complete when any part is missing.
 
We are making this subject way too complicated. There are studies and numerous examples in Utah and other western states that show B:D ratios above 15 make no difference in herd production.

Managing above 15 is a social issue and hunter desires are really the necessary consideration.

I agree that mule deer productivity should be focused on in each unit independently and we have a lot of work to do but this issue a hunting issue and nothing more.
 
I do like the idea of the RACs focusing on units within their Region. I agree with getting the local expert input before a decision is made on a unit. BUT,if each RAC can only discuss units in their Region, then what does the guy do that hunts in a different Region?

I've heard only two suggestions made? And I don't think either are realistic. One suggestion is to send an e-mail. With the mass of emails that these RAC and Board members get, the e-mails are easily disregarded, likley all do not get read, or just skimmed over. I don't believe an e-mail would do justice to a person going in person.

The other suggestion is to attend the RAC meeting in that Region. But it isn't realistic to require someone from Cache valley to travel 6 hours to attend a RAC meeting in the southern region where they hunt. Even a 2 to 3 hour drive on a work night/school night is unrealistic.

Therefore, I think each RAC should be able and willing to consider input from the public on units that are not in that particular region.
 
10 years of data is more than the RAC has used on any of their decisions since the change to January big game drawings in 1990. Let me see... the last plan they had for deer was a 3 year plan and it never made it passed the first year before they with drew it and changed. So we will never know the success or failure of that plan. There is no consistency.

The data for that ten year period came from the Utah DWR Big Game harvest manual for 1984, Unit 40. The reason... because that is the data that I have access to.
 
DWR would never allow it... I think too far outside their box. And if you think I'm bad on there buck ratios, wait till I start in on their habitat management policies.
 
One suggestion
>is to send an e-mail.
> With the mass of
>emails that these RAC and
>Board members get, the e-mails
>are easily disregarded, likley all
>do not get read, or
>just skimmed over.

I've read and repsonded to every single email I've received and it's my belief that if RAC and WB members are serious about doing the job they've signed up for every email should be read and considered.

There are a ton of emails that are coming in but not more than can be read. Until we get to the point it's not possible to read them all I believe this works as intended.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-12 AT 10:28AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-12 AT 10:27?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-12 AT 10:24?AM (MST)

As RAC members we are primarily charged with looking at and basing our votes on information from, DWR biologist and sportsmen across the state that we hear from-- I read every e-mail I get and try to respond to the majority of them. Its important to hear from sportsmen because if we don't we are left to our own individual bias's and the info provided from the DWR. We vote individually for those agenda items that directly affect the Central Region units. I have personally changed my vote on several items because of input I recieved from other sportsmen via e-mail or at the RAC meetings.The Wildlife Board is the entity that then looks at each of the RACs recommendations and makes the final decision on any particular recommendation. They are the policy makers. The DWR is not required or bound by the WB decisions, but they generally follow their "recommendations" because that reflects what the hunting community wants. Its just like the elections-- the majority of people(hunters) that vote get what they want.
One question I have concerning the Colorado studies-- Was the population in the study area(s) at or near habitat carrying capacity to begin with ? If it was , then increasing buck/doe ratios by limiting buck harvest would in my opinion, cause increased forage competetion with fawns-- I think we know who would most likely win that battle for the available forage. If the population was - say, 70% of real carrying capacity, then I think that the buck/fawn forage competetion would not have much affect on fawn survival. One other thing-- are fawns easier for predators to kill than even yearling bucks. I would think that fawns would be at much greater risk, so that recruitment of fawns into the population over a year would suffer. If so, reduction in predator numbers may be more effective in fawn survival than making sure that there are enough bucks to cover does in their first estrus cycle.
 
I haven't been to one in nearly 10 yrs. But did the RAC just gain relevancy? Has any of the RAC suggestions been implemented? Ever?
That weren't already decided behind closed doors weeks before the actual meeting.
 
I have never been in a closed door meeting in connection with the DWR or RAC.
The Central Region RAC has had several items that the WB has put into place- e.g. disabled hunters season dates, reduction of DH hours from 40 to 32, Lifetime License holders/draw rules and a few other items.
Sometimes we are able to have some items implemented that are brought to the RAC by the public.
 
Nebo12000, I stand corrected. I haven't been to a RAC in along time so I am no expert on the subject. You obviously are. I am not a regular poster here and don't know who is who. I'm putting 2 and 2 together and assume you hold a position on the central RAC? So let me bend your ear. :)

I don't mean to hijack this thread. But reading your post a question comes to mind. Capacity? Isn't that about impossible to definitively conclude? I don't need a lesson in how the UDWR biologist are investigating it. I'm well versed on the subject and have some serious misgivings when it is claimed when it comes to Mule deer. Take the Monroe doe collar study for example. The data coming from that study would indicate predators are a nonfactor in the decline of the Monroe deer herd. Since doe mortality has been found to be less than 85% in that unit. Which leads biologist to conclude habitat and weather as the primary obstacles to that herd. It's been concluded by the DWR that cougar populations on that unit were drastically reduced in the 90's and the deer herd never increased. So cougar are not an issue on Monroe right?

What vexes me is that other factors may be at play skewing the picture of what is happening with the deer herd on that unit.

Example: During that same time frame (mid 90's thru 2005) several habitat restoration projects were undertook. Primarily harrow projects. At the time I was quite alarmed by this activity. So as a result I have been observing the results intensely. To date I personally see little benefit to Mule deer where treatment has occurred. I suspect this has served to reduce capacity on the Monroe. Also in the same time frame Monroe had a couple significant wildfires and under went prescribed burns. These too I suspect have reduced capacity.

So what I am getting at Is. If at the same time Monroe lost so much habitat for deer. It would stand to reason that the deer herd would decline. Or at best stagnate. So isn't it an inaccurate assumption that cougar reduction does not result in deer population increases? In the case of the Monroe. Which I have herd Mr Bunnell mention a few times in his testimony to the WB. Also wouldn't reduced capacity winter and summer also be a significant factor in deer herd declines and lower body fat and malnutrition of deer on the Monroe Unit. I am concerned about these issue because I know the finding of the Monroe study will effect management decisions statewide. And if the finding are not accurate we could be heading down the wrong road for mule deer recovery.

Lastly I also have concerns that only collaring doe gives an inaccurate picture to the effects of predators primarily cougar. Several studies have sighted solitary buck deer as more vulnerable to cougar predation. This is not even being looked at in the case of the Monroe study. So to conclude that predators are not a factor with out quantifying buck mortality in the equation. Seems to me to be negligent if the goal is to understand what is happening to our deer in Utah.

I appreciate any replies positive or negative. :)
 
Deersman... I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying and the Monroe. So bare with me.

A few years back the Monroe winter range took a big hit if I remember right. It was burned off in a pretty serious fire. Correct? And the restoration for the range was to harrow it... Did the harrowing project there produce grass or browse? Did this project remove juniper or leave what juniper were there in place? What would you say the vegetative make up of the range is now compared to 20 or 30 years ago?
 
I am not aware of a fire that took out winter range. The fires I am thinking of were on top above Upper Box Creek Res. (Olroyd fire) and another on the north face of the unit above Glenwood on the Cove Mtn portion. And prescribed burns have taken place on Forshea and Langdon. I could not tell you what the recovery from the prescribed burns look like as they are in very steep rough roadless country. But the Olroyd fire area is totally void of any browse and Cheat grass has invaded. Curiously half of that burn was fenced off with high fence and the Cheat Grass is 3 to 4 ft tall. But some aspen is starting to regenerate in the fenced off areas. The fire on Cove Mtn has significant aspen regeneration and little browse is coming in.

I believe more important deer habitat has been taken out by harrow projects that never burnt. These areas are winter range above Koosherem res over to bear canyon. And winter range above the Glenwood fish hatchery to Hunters Flat area. 10s of 1000s of acres combined. And summer range near the Dry creek ranger station and a large area from Six Patch south to Upper Box Creek Res then continues south to Greenwich Canyon again 10's of 1000s of acres. Much to my disappointment these areas before treatment comprised mostly browse (sage) although it was older sage that was not what I would call very productive sage. With pockets of healthy productive sage. Never the less they held decent numbers of deer. Post treatment these areas are primarily grasses. And today void of any deer.

PJ has been removed on a limited basis above Koosherem Res.

It may be that these projects were done with good intentions toward mule deer. But they have missed the mark in helping them. I've been told to be patient that it will take time for browse to return. Some of these projects were done over a decade ago and still no sign of browse. I fear they were done to help improve graze not browse.

I hope this clears up what I am talking about.
 
I'm quite interested in the way DWR, BLM and USFS conduct their habitat projects that are supposed to be for mule deer.

Everybody that has take the hunter education course has gotten the pitch that habitat is basically food, water, shelter, space and the arrangement thereof.

Being a person who has spent a considerable time in the outdoors you pretty much catch on that deer are a "cover" animal. Yes you catch them out in the open areas at certain times of the day and under certain condition, but... If there is no cover close by somewhere you don't have deer.

Now... the DWR, BLM and USFS have spent considerable time and money researching mule deer habitat. Like 60 years of it. They have a mutually written manual that is supposed to guide how deer habitat projects are to be modeled. The book states:

"Thermal cover becomes very important, and many times it is the limiting factor for survival of wintering elk and deer (Fowler and Dealy 1987; Hobbs 1989). Maximum distance between edges should not exceed 325 ft (99.1 m). Best results have been obtained when groups or islands of trees have been connected with corridors and edges, rather than with isolated islands. No more that 50 percent of an area should be treated. Undisturbed areas should be no longer or no smaller than disturbed areas. Patches or islands of trees, and travel lanes (fig. 14) that are left for deer should be selected carefully. Leckenby and others (1982) recommend that either evergreen or deciduous trees and shrubs can be used for thermal cover, but they should be at least 5 ft (1.5 m) tall, and the crown closure within the island should be greater than 75 percent... ...The size of areas left for thermal cover should be at least 2 to 5 acres (0.8 to 2.0 ha)."

Can anybody tell me where the agencies that preach this research have actually done it on the ground? All I ever find is chained areas that look like they might as well have been burned off. 40, 60, 80 acres or more at a time totally cleared and devoid of thermal cover islands. If you want to see what I'm talking about just download Google Earth and take a look at any chained area. You can ever use the distance tool in the program and measure how wide the chaining are. I'll bet you find very few the match the 325 ft distance recommended in their book.

If you actually managed habitat in a manner described above you should get an immediate positive vegetative response to the advantage of mule deer. What you get from the massive acre knockdowns they are doing now is an excuse of, "Oh, just wait 20 years and it will be good habitat again." I really don't think our herds have the time to wait. I'm like you, Deersman, I see general declines of deer in these mass chainings after a couple of winters and then it's a long haul getting the habitat back to where the deer can also begging to repopulate.
 
As I recall the fawn/doe ratio on the Monroe is not conducive to herd growth. If the studies that have been done in regards to coyote predation on fawns hold true to the Monroe, then it is entirely possible that it is coyotes that are limiting herd growth on the Monroe. The study we were shown at a Jan. RAC meeting by FWS said that 70% of fawn deaths were because of coyote predation. Whether we could agree with that figure or not, I think it is safe to assume that coyotes are a major factor affecting fawn survival. So, maybe its not cougar predation but coyote problems. They also said that the normal prey base for coyotes- i.e. moles mice rabbits- are extemely low, so they believe that is one reason why coyotes are targeting fawns.
I am familiar with the habaitat on the Cove Mt end of the Monroe unit. I too have wondered why the chaining took place on the sagebrush areas. It seems that the grasses have come back big time, I wonder how long it will take for the sagebrush and other browse to regenerate so that it will benefit mule deer. The cattle are doing good on it now.
I have a cabin below Deep Lake and have been absolutely amazed at the lack of deer. The elk were very abundant the first few years we were up there but elk numbers have definitely decreased dramatically over the past 5 years.
Just hoping that the DWRs efforts will bring our deer population up throughout the state.
 
Really, you want to get all your mule deer management out of a manual? This is exactaly the reason we have study after study after study to determine if lions and coyotes affect mule deer populations. If these supposed experts would listen to people like Ted Riggs and others that actually lived and breathe it we wouldnt be wasting time going over every study a thousand times. If the college proffesers that wrote the manual actully glassed and looked over burns and chainings they might rewrite the manual. I agree that mule deer need somekind of cover but for gad sakes EVERY 325 FT???
Im sorry but the downfall of the deer herd isnt because chainings and burns dont have a patch of trees every 325 ft.
 
Elitehoghunter... take a breath, slow down and read. This guideline is not written by college professors. It is written by a team of biologist. Many who would not be considered "old timers". If you know anything about deer behavior in the winter, specifically from around the middle of December to the middle of February, these animals are in an energy conservation mode. When temperatures go sub-zero they limit their travel for forage and they depend on forage that is in the immediate vicinity of thermal cover (which happens to be dense stands of juniper in most western states). It has been studied, if you will, over and over again and the conclusion is during these conditions most deer only travel about 150 feet off of cover to forage.

You can validate this common knowledge by doing a simple little experiment yourself. The next time you are out rabbit hunting or hiking in the month of May, walk along the perimeter of a dense juniper stand and for 100 paces count the number of deer droppings you find. Then go repeat the same process only this time count the number of deer dropping while walking 300 feet from any dense juniper cover. Now compare the results.

The implication is that even though you can increase the forage in the middle of a chaining or railing project it doesn't matter if, 1. the deer are not using it during critical times and 2. they can't stay warm enough during resting time to conserve the calories they have consumed.

I am watching a chaining project that is now two years old in my area. There used to be a herd of deer in it, around 200, that were very visible as they would come to an alfalfa field to forage at night. This is the third winter of the chaining and the deer are practically gone. They are not on the chaining. You would be able to see them if they were because it is a snow desert in the winter with 100% visibility now. This has been a light winter and I'm hoping they chose to winter higher on the mountain. But if they do not return on a normal winter I can only assume that their former habitat has been manipulated in a fashion that was not appropriate for their survival.
 
justamacguy, Ive seen literally hundreds of deer out in an open patch of sage with cliffrose scattered throughout in rolling hills with very few trees around. But they were able to get cover in these rolling hills by getting out of the wind and there was an abundance of cliffrose to browse on. I would dare say in this chaining you refer to its either the deer numbers have shrunk to the point that they dont need to utilize the feed in the chaining or during this time of year there isnt the right kind of browse and or feed that got reseeded or both.If the right kind of feed is there and the population is there they will travel further than 100 yds from pj stands to browse.
 
Send the the GPS coordinates for the deer you are watching... I would like to see the habitat make of the area (on an aerial map). Yes, deer will travel farther than 100 yards to forage, and especially during times of the year when weather is not the critical factor. However, during times when the temperature drops below 0? this gets to be critical. The forage is of low nutritional value during the winter and if you have to spend more calories traveling for food than you are ingesting you are going to starve/freeze to death.

As for the area I am talking about, it is pretty typical of most pinyon-juniper winter range in the state.

Maybe it's my fault that I have not given you enough information about this herd.

1. This herd had actually been expanding in number for approximately 7 years prior to the chaining.

2. There is no degradation to the winter range in the area by urbanization or agriculture.

3. There has been no major change it the predator base in the area. In fact the DWR has been reducing cougar tags in the area because of low number. Bear may be on a slight increase but would not account for the decline in a very specific and narrow portion of winter range. Coyotes populations are typical of what they became a few years after the 1080 ban. Higher than wanted but not increased, let alone, exploded... and again, if they are up, it would not explain the animals targeting this one small area and not other areas close by.

4. Hunting strategies for this area have been consistent since 1975... buck only hunting (except for some doe tags in the 1980's).

Given that everything else has remained relatively constant except for this dramatic clearing of overhead cover I would say that the process of elimination seriously points to the recent, dramatic change in habitat.

By the way if you think that the information in this manual regarding the width of these foraging lanes is restrictive... Managers in both Wyoming and Texas recommend "...less than 200 feet...". Since Texas has no federal lands and all of it's hunting is done on private ranches which depend on their deer leases for income (something like the ultimate capitalism of mule deer) these private ranches depend on being productive. Texas also recommends that managers shoot for a 30 to 50 percent buck doe ratio (an interesting read).
 

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos
Back
Top Bottom