cougars killing more then expected

This is interesting. If most wildlife agencies are using the Idaho study numbers it could explain some of the unexplained disappearing mule deer.

"Idaho estimates differed from our summer estimates by as much as 365 percent in terms of frequency of killing and 538 percent in terms of prey biomass,? Knopff wrote. ?Because kill rate fundamentally influences the effect predators have on their prey, the discrepancy between studies represents a substantial difference in the capacity for cougars to impact ungulates.?
 
Look out big6!

Stuff like this will get you skewered by the cat lovers hereabouts!

Haha!

Bill

Kill the buck that makes YOU happy!
 
WOW! 10,000 pounds a year!
I wish they culd have explained populations and how accurate the counts can be.

100 Lions
10,000 lbs of deer per year
1,000,000 lbs total
150 lb average deer

Thats 6,666 deer/year per 100 Lions

How many lions are in your state?
 
If you think of the actual meat that comes off the average deer I bet it is more like 75lbs so you could double that total deer number that the lions are killing.
 
Good read, the GPS really does help them out.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
its no wonder our deer herds are stuggling. since the ban on 1080 the lion pop has likely steadily increase, like our deer herd has steadily decreased. if there were 1000 lions in the state we are looking at 60,000+ deer lost to lions yearly. no wonder we cant get our deer numbers up
 
That is a new and different take on the Lion issue for sure.
Lots of game officials seem more likely to downplay Lion impact rather than inflate it. Perhaps the new GPS technology will finally help us figure out the mule deer decline.
 
Talking with my hunting partner on the phone the other day we got to talking about how there seems to be so many deer in the area around his place that have never been there in the last 10 to 15 years. His neighbor has dogs and has been lion hunting the area for the past 20 years. He said that the cats are way way down in numbers and this year so far he has only tree?d one cat late in the evening. It was a big mature Tom but because he was taken so far away from home and had a long way to get back he had to called the dogs off and left him be for another day . This would explain why my partner is watching deer everyday out his door and why he and I got into a LOT of them with some decent bucks in an area we just haven't been seeing them in. I'm inclined to agree that cats kill a lot more than 1 deer per week judging by the rebound of deer and lack of cats.

GBA
 
The Canadian study appears to support those who have long believed that lions have taken a far greater toll on deer herds than previously thought or reported. I hope wildlife dept.'s take notice of this very revealing study.

Eldorado
 
It has long been my opinion that if the Deer herds are healthy and abundant, some predators are not necessarily a bad thing. On the other hand, if the herd is in trouble and declining, any and all predators, need to be controlled...including us hunters.

Reducing the predator population by any % is something that we can and must do to help a struggling deer herd. Certainly there are many variables why a deer herd might be in decline and struggling but IMO, helping the herd recover by thinning those that eat deer, is never a wrong move.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Sage

Don't tell wiley that limiting hunters is a good thing, he'll tell ya other wise!!!!!
 
we have been trying to manage the dang deer herds since 1996 by killing lions when we doubled our lion take and have continued to do so look where it has got us.. a deer a week around here is actually a pretty fair average maybe just a bit high they kill more in summer because the meat gets rancid in the heat and scavengers find it easier, and if the have alot of food they will kill more ..sorry guys but u can beat this all u want but until we cut tags big time nothings gunna change..
 
A recent radio show interviewed a x UDWR bioligist.
Dennis Austin? He did deer studies in UT and Idaho.
He said 1 LION PER 500 DEER!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is a healthy lion population for that many deer.
UDWR estimate 2000 + lions in UT. = 1 million deer needed in UTARD meet this requirement!
Bear populations up 200 percent in the last 20 years.

I'll let you guys do the math

Coyotes ?
 
lol no wonder he is a ex biologist..utah hasnt been able to fill its quota tags on lions for 10 years .. 1971 207 hunters afield 94 lions harvested 1997 1376 hunters afields 576 harvested 2010 996 hunters afield 304 harvested..71 mountain ranges in utah at 2000 lions in the state as the dwr says thats 28 lions per mountain range.. i can garuantee you thats not so.. you people act like nothing has been done to manage cougars, which is untrue we are taking 2 and 3 times more lions every single year for the past 20 years... you do the math
 
>we are
>taking 2 and 3 times
>more lions every single year
>for the past 20 years...
>you do the math

2 and 3 times?!?! Over the last 6 years lion mortality has been below 400 every year but over the 12 years before that it was only below 400 once.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-12 AT 08:23PM (MST)[p]what part of they cant fill the tags they put out there dont you understand????? you have a thousand guys in the state hunting and they can only cough up 300 lions in a year its not cause theyre not hunting and its not cause they dont have a tag in theyre pocket, its because the lions arent there,, we have considerably been killing more lions since the early 90s and the deer herd has continued to spiral down the tube just keep trying to manage your deer herd by killing more lions and lets see where it gets us in another 15 years.. you people are gunna have to sacrifice something if you want your deer herds back not just keep using the lion as a scape goat.it hasnt worked yet and it will never work,predator control is important but it is only 1 of many things that need to be done.in my opinion the deer hunt needs to be shut down for 3 years state wide. i enjoy hunting deer as much as the next guy but lion hunting is my passion and in order for theyre to be alot of lions there HAS TO BE alot of deer.lions have to have deer to survive for the most part, sure yes they do kill other stuff some but deer is the main stay for lions . my point exactly on the numbers there big boy the mortality rates are down despite more people with tags in pocket hunting them do you think those guys magically just got worse at hunting them or maybe?? IS IT SOMETHING ELSE like howabout lion numbers are down.
 
Even at "only 300" lions in the state, that's roughly 15,000 deer per year being taken. Granted some kills are not always deer, but other game as outlined in the article.
I'm kinda glad there's "only" 300..........

It's no secret that lions take a lot of big trophy bucks due to how habitual the bucks are.....they make an easier catch for the cat. I've never seen a study done on what the average age and sex of the deer kills are, but it would surely tell a story.
It takes about 5 years for a buck to reach maturity, but only minutes to take that one trophy buck out of the picture. I understand they kill all ages and sexes, but we sure do see a lot of pictures posted of huge bucks being victoms of lions.
It just reminds us that hunters aren't the only ones making an impact on the top end bucks, we have some competition.
Coyotes play a major factor in this equation as well, that's no secret, but there's a hell of a lot more coyotes being harvested than lions.
In a nutshell, just because the lion numbers are down doesn't mean the herd rebounds instantly. There are many other factors going against them....including our ever shrinking winter habitat in at least half the state.
But hey.....haven't we heard all of this a hundred times before??? ;-)
 
Grey-

I wasn't disagreeing with anything other than the claim that we are killing more lions than ever. Maybe you should talk about success rates. In that case success rate is down. However, that doesn't really tell us a whole lot. It could have been we let the lion population get out of control over a extended period (I mean in the 90s they were treeing almost one lion every other day twice as much as now despite killing twice as many a year compared to now, that means there are lots of lions). This crashed the deer herd which quickly crashed the lion population and now they are both way down and will take a long time to build up. This is all hypothetical but I am just saying we don't really know anything except lions eat deer and killing a lion is not going to hurt the deer herd (Unless you go all Kaibab and kill all predators and let the deer herd grow unchecked and have a crazy winter). This is not saying anything about hunting or whether tags should be cut. Although with your passion for lion hunting over deer hunting we have to recognize your motivations are a little different than most on monstermuleys.
 
I only have experience in Mexico, but I think the same rules apply. Cats are definitely a big concern for us. They kill a lot of adult deer, and more bucks than does. However, the biggest problem affecting overall population are coyotes. They kill 80-90% of the fawns down there....most within a month or two after birth. I've hunted a lot of ranches down there over the last 25 years. I would estimate that for every 10 does, you might see 2-3 fawns where there is no predator control. On our ranch, you will see 10-12.

I remember the Mexican biologist telling us that the coyotes and cats preyed on the weak and should be left alone. My dad was like...BULLSHIT! Five years later, he came to do a census and was very pleased with what he saw. When we told him what we were doing, he "changed his tune". All of a sudden, predator control was obviously the way to go! My dad didn't let him off the hook so easily. He finally just said that he advises what he learned in his training....but you could tell that he had some newfound reservations about what he had been taught.

Too many books have been written by "professors" who spent most of their time on campus, and not out in the field.
 
State wide quota.
Over the counter tags.

1lion per 500 Deer!
Cougars aren't trophies . They're predators!
 
State wide quotas.
Over the counter tags.
1 lion per 500 deer.

Lions are not trophies! They're predators!
 
My former neighbor and retired DWR wildlife Biologist says this : the # of cougar hunters harvesting a cougar vs the # of cougar tags allocated each year in the past 2 decades , has never hit there quota . He firmly believes back in 2008 , there was over 3000 cougars in the state of Utah , and he strongly believes the #'s are drastically up from that . Deer herds are down, drastically reduced due to predators , coyotes and cougars a like . As the deer herds have declined, guess what takes places of the deer for cougars to prey on .... coyotes and rabbits . A research study found coyote in cougar crap . Coyotes can be an adequate food source for cougars !!! Where deer is scarce, well there is always coyote to eat !! It's been proven and it makes since .
 
your neighbor is full of crap,i wished there was 3000 lions in utah, the state is already setup for statewide quota , and damn i must be blind cause i sure not finding all those giant bucks killed by all these lions you guys are talking about, but i sure would like too... still havent heard from one of you guys about sacrificing something yourself to bring the deer herd up all you guys wanna do is kill more lions that arent there.. keep up the good work boys that has been your guys management plan for deer since 1996 sure looks like you been doin a bang up job.
 
I honestly have no idea how many cougars there are in my state of Utah. I do know what happened when they put the sheep on Mt Mahogany in the early 2000s. Within a couple weeks they had dead sheep and the rest were run down toward the city. They found cougars were killing them, so they started hunting cats and killed around 40 from Dry Creek in Alpine to Provo canyon in about a year. If they killed so many in that small area in such a short period of time, would that not lend there being more cats than we realize? (in some areas anyway?)

After they killed all those cougars the deer herd grew. Of course the deer herd died in the winter of 07-08, but that is another story....

My bet on cougars is that they are scarce where access and roads are easy and they are plentiful in areas where they can escape-- difficult access. The difficult areas produce cats to fill in the easy access areas. The Wasatch Front is an example of this.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-03-12 AT 11:56AM (MST)[p]3000 lions in utah is a far fetch,have you ever noticed when the dwr and its biologist fail at something its always something or somebody elses fault.instead OF JUST SAYING WE SCREWED UP WE BEEN OVER HARVESTING FOR 30 YEARS. state wide quota is a horrible idea to try and manage cougars if you guys wanna raise your cougar permits go ahead you cant fill the ones you put out there now but for crying out loud lets not screw some of these units like the oak creeks and deep creeks,which is exactly is what has happenned with this new 8 region lion setup, now nobody is hunting those areas. they take theyre tag and stay closer to home and hunt where theyre are a few more lions so now we got the numbers beat down on the oak creeks for the last ten years now nobody gunna hunt it, why would they now they can take theyre tag and go some place closer to home and more access and more lions theyre are a few places in utah that need to be left as theyre own units draw or quota whatever but if u lump them in with a bunch of other units nobody gunna hunt the dang places,sure you pull a few more lions off these other places but you are pulling none off these other ones.furthermore maybe someone would like to awnser me this question if it is so awful important to you people to kill lions why in the heck cant we have a year round hunt on all these units not just a few,i can see shutting them down for the deer and elk hunts but theyre is no reason we cant hunt them all summer ecspecially if there is tags to be filled.
 
Grayeagle, mule deer hunters have taken cuts for over 30 years!
Lion populations were not and have not been brought into balance with the deer herd.
I've been involved in a 50 year study. Early in the study I didn't go to school on Friday or Monday of opening weekend of deer season! We camped in a large group. We played in a lot of camp fires. We heard the same old timer BS stories every year. We hunted out by camp Williams, down to Levan, Diamond Fork canyon, Bookclifs, Brunin point, LaSals , Beaver towers and other areas over the years.
Never heard anyone in camp talk about seeing/shooting a coyote!
Seeing a lion or track!
Seeing a pile of bear $hit!
15 to 20 tags filled every year by our camp.
Had to be 16 to hunt. Either sex in most areas. Extra doe tags each year in a lot of areas. We hunted for fun and meat.
I was leagle to hunt in 73 either sex in a lot of the for mentioned areas.
Real coyote controll ended in 73. Lions and bears started being managed by DWR. Saw my first coyote deer hunting in 79 . Lion tracks and bear $hit stories soon followed.
In the early 80's deer numbers going down 170,000 deer tags gen season. Doe tags up to 30,000 a year! Did I mention deer numbers still going down. DWR said too many deer for winter range,
I could go on.
Study concludes, KEEP MANAGING PREDITORS the way we have since the 70's, deer herd looks like , you gussed it!
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-03-12 AT 02:59PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-03-12 AT 02:26?PM (MST)

I have spent many days and covered hundreds of miles in southern Utah trying to cut a single fresh track to dump a well trained pack of dogs on. We have put on the snowshoes and hiked the steep country that lions frequent and never turned up a fresh track.Sure, we tree our fair share of lions over the course of a season, but they are usually 2-3 year olds, and even those don't come easy. Nothing with any age, which tells me that they are getting plenty of pressure.We have bigger problems than lions here in Utah. We sell to the highest bidder, several hundred premium tags.It's important to understand that these tags go to die hard trophy hunters. Hunters who know how to kill trophy class bucks, or who will higher a guide to put them on a trophy buck. Anyway you shake it, these tags are harvesting the cream? Make no mistake about it. We also have a problem issuing to many tags. We have gone to smaller units, which is the right direction, but we will issue about the same amount of tags which is the wrong direction.Were just reshuffling the deck. You look at units in CO, NV, AZ that are the same size as many of our new units in Utah and they are issuing 1/4 of the tags we are.

Furthermore, Utah has no shortage of lion hunters. There is some fierce competetion when it comes to lions. I'd suspect that in Canada, where this research was conducted may not have near as many lion hunters. An area that consistently produces lions with some age, might be an indicator of too many cats.As a disclosure, I'm not a houndsmen. I have a good friend who is. I have had the oppurtunity to chase lions with him the last couple of years and these have been my observations. I'm a trophy mule deer hunter first and formost, and if I thought lions were a big problem, I'd be the first to say lets kill more.
 
Sorry but i don't trust most hound guys! The guys i know well are mostly Bear hunters, it's their hobby, not really their job. They love the chase, seems it's in their blood. Most of them though don't care for the harvest. They like the hunt, the treeing of the animal, and getting their dogs a good workout, yet seldom will they shoot a animal unless a friend or the occasional client is along, has a tag that they want filled and even then, the treed animal usually has to be a really good one, preferably male.

I suspect the same of lion hunters with hounds. They don't care near as much about killing or getting their game as they do about protecting their sport. So the quota doesn't get filled? Is that because of lack of opportunity or because there were many cases where the hound hunter chose not to shoot so as to protect his sport? The quota doesn't get filled for a reason!

I believe there is a lot more of this going on than comes out in these threads and looking at it from their own perspective, don't know that i can fault them in their thinking. That doesn't help Game dept. or the Deer hunter though, especially with a declining deer herd. So, i take what most hound guys claim with a grain of salt.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Joey

Go hang out with a good houndsmen for a season, and I'll bet your opinion will change.Mine did after I saw first hand that lions are not as abundant as I once assumed. And while there are a few houndsmen that don't kill the lions they tree, there are just as many that do.

Mike
 
Cabinfever, I liked your post and mine wasn't intended towards you or anyone's in general. You said that you tree your share of 2-3 year old cats. How many of these do you harvest? If not very many, would that not help the Game Dept fill the Quota if you did?

That's what i'm saying here, nothing much more than that...and as i said, don't know that i can fault you guys thinking.

I've chased them damn hounds more that i ever wanted to. It's now for a younger, better shape guy than i am. Good luck with it!!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Cabin, glad you didn't claim to see thousands of deer.
The main issue here is general deer numbers.
Selling tags has nouthing to do with fawn and adult BREEDING doe survival!
Back to my study, in the earlie 80's a lot of areas had 3 to 4 bucks per 100 does. DWR killed doe's in the spring. With that low b/d ratio all the doe's were pregnant!!
Got to keep a lot of doe's alive. Got to have 70 fawns per 100 doe's. We don't kill doe's and fawns. What does?
Back to my mule deer study, 70's and 80's , 3 hounds men in Carbon county.
DWR intensified their roll in managining preditators. Should have been selling hounds ,could have made a fortune!

1 lion per 500 deer will make it tough to kill a lion. As it should be. Grow more deer get more lions.

Bears populations have increased 600 percent since 92. 25 bears total killed in 92. DWR manages the bear so well , we meet and exceed harvest objectives of a BEAR PLAN that states INCREASE bear populations! Last year after meeting the harvest objectives set 20 yeas ago UTAH killed 160 bears. Summer training season providing 2 bears treed a day!
They love bears so much that they passed a law that states you will have to prove a bear intended to do you harm , if you shoot one breaking into your cabin or camp. Deadly force can only be used if you are prepared to prove the bear intentended to do you harm.

DWR manages predators well.

Can't have every preditor type , producing TROPHY Quality ,and have abundant robust mule deer populations. Refer to my mule deer study pre 1970.





.
 
Joey

Put my name down for one lion that won't be killing deer this winter. Took a nice Tom in November and it didn't come easy. A lot of of long days with no tracks before I got him.

338

"Selling tags has nouthing to do with fawn and adult BREEDING doe survival!"

This is true, however, because most hunters shoot bucks, and particulary guys like me who want to kill big bucks, we have to cut back on tags in order to let some of these bucks grow up. I agree with you on the bears. They are a big problem in some areas. However, I think coyotes are still our biggest threat to a fawns survival. Predator control in the 60's & 70's via poison no doubt helped deer numbers, but I'm not convinced it's the main reason we had lots of deer. Prior to 2007 winter, CO expericend a boom in deer numbers similar to that of the 60's and it wasn't due to predator control. Infact, CO has more bears than UT because they don't alow you to run bears with hounds. I would also wager that CO does not have as many houndsmen as UT. Yet there were deer everywhere and plenty of big buck.Why the boom? In 1999,CO cut tags significantly, and began to micromange deer herds. Add to that,several mild winters and within 4 years CO was producing hunting similar to that of the 60's. The pine valley unit here in southern Utah has pretty good deer numbers and good fawn recruitment.Plenty of young bucks.Virtually no winter kill. The unit has some lions, and plenty of coyotes, yet there is no evidence these predators are taking their toll. The biggest problem in this unit is the age class of bucks? This is why it's important to micromanage. One units fawn survival may be due to bears,whilst another is due to lions or coyotes, habitat, over harvest by hunters, vehicles ect. To blanket manage like the state of Utah has done is not sound management.It has never worked.Look at the book cliffs which has a large population of bears. They closed the unit for several years. Predator control was not increased, yet deer numbers exploded. They reopened the unit, and micromanged the herd to meet certain objectives.The results have been favorable.To say lions are the main problem is not putting the focus where it needs to be. This 2 million alotment towards killing coyotes is a step in the right direction. Increasing bear tags, where needed, is another step we need to take. But the most important, and one that elicits the most controversy, is tag reductions.
 
338 boy... still not filling the tags you guys are issuing ..lion age numbers are down its not cause the houndsman are getting worse at hunting them .theyre is way less lions right now than theyre was in 1970.. thank you joey your point sings loud and clear to me.. tell you what boys im a lion hunter 1st and a deer hunter 2nd and theyre really isnt much more you guys can do to make the lion hunting much worse than it is, give a million tags you still wont fill them either.the only way it can get worse than it is right now is if the deer numbers continue to drop which im sure it will if the same management practices continue. theyre is so much misconception with lions an lion number umongst the deer and elk and average hunter its not even funny according to most of you 1 lion kills 1000 head of ungulates a year robs banks every other weekend and they try to run off with your wifes on a daily basis..to hell with the guys that are running them day in and day out telling you guys for the last 15 years that lions arent your problem. now look where it has gotten you,tell you guys what you go ahead and continue to screw utah up however you would like and i will just keep on continuing to hunt other states and enjoy myself,and i will continue to not hunt deer in this mismanaged joke for a state...
 
Aren't there always more tags issued than what they actually want or expect to be harvested? They know how many animals they want harvested, they look at the previous years success rates in a specific area and that gives them a number to issue out knowing it won't be 100% success rate.
Its like a cow elk hunt on Dutton. Anyone that knows that mountain well knows that the 300 cow tags they issue would make that herd extinct, but given the remoteness and past seasons low success they issue 300 tags expecting to only harvest less than 50%.
Not sure if that's how lion tags are issued or not but its food for thought.
 
338 I agree. Until all predators are focused on the deer herd will not come back. Bear need reduced, coyotes need reduced, and lions need to be mantained at low numbers. There should be a major predator reduction for the mule deer cause.
My bet is we kill all these coyotes and nothing happens we will be scratching our heads wondering what the heck. Reduction in bear needs to happen as well.
The mule deer are under the thresh hold and cant seem to come out until some fawns can survive. And every predator that kills a fawn should be considered a threat unitl the heard comes back.
 
What'd be funny is if we could Pen/Trap all the Lions in the State for 5 years & show the Dumb Bastards in/of this State there's a little more to Deer Decimation than JUST Lions,GEEZUS!

If you can't see the Light you sure the Hell don't spend enough time in the woods with fellow TARDS that Hunt Big Game 5 to 7 Months out of the year!

So My Question is:::

The Lions have been Hunted Hard & most have been thinned out of the Book cliffs,Deer Numbers are down,WTF?

Go ahead,boast your BULLSHIT!!!

I do believe I'd be more worried about the Wolves that will be here someday,they ain't gonna let you hunt them like Lions(legally!)but hey,this is TARDville,where the Wolves will be thinned by TARDS:"Damn that sure was a Big Coyote I shot today"!

Amazes me how even most Sportsmen can't/don't even know why Game/Deer numbers are down in this State,you can start at the Top:pISS POOR MANAGEMENT & GREED oh but BY GAWD the Opportunity!

Ya,the Lions killed all the Deer!

Maybe if you kill all the Lions in this State you can get the DWR to add 15,000 more f'n Deer Tags & everything will be fixed!

GEEZUS!


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If You Love Your Country,SHOW THEM TO ME!




Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
>338 I agree. Until all
>predators are focused on the
>deer herd will not come
>back. Bear need reduced,
>coyotes need reduced, and lions
>need to be mantained at
>low numbers. There should
>be a major predator reduction
>for the mule deer cause.
>
>My bet is we kill all
>these coyotes and nothing happens
>we will be scratching our
>heads wondering what the heck.
> Reduction in bear needs
>to happen as well.
>The mule deer are under the
>thresh hold and cant seem
>to come out until some
>fawns can survive. And
>every predator that kills a
>fawn should be considered a
>threat unitl the heard comes
>back.

Your bet is if all Coyotes were killed nothing happens?

Boy have you got alot to f'n learn!

That shitt has already been proven!

Oh GAWD,don't forget to add cantkillathing's Bear Kill numbers in there!

Bears eat way more Groceries than cats,bet them SOB's are eating 5 to 10 Deer a day!

Amazes me some of you so-called Pro's can't accept the Facts that TARDS are doing way more Damage to the Big Picture than anything else!

cant,you best think about that statement on the Coyotes you made!


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Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
Always Amazes me that hardly anybody can Actually see the Big Picture of the Combination of Many,Many things that make up for a PISS POOR Deer Herd of today!

Go ahead!

Blame just one thing!

Some Blame JUST Lions!

Some(cantkilladamnthing)Blame just Bears!

Some Blame JUST Coyotes!

Some Blame JUST Poachers!

Some Blame JUST DWR!

Some Blame JUST Roadkills!

Some Blame JUST the loss of Habitat!

Some Blame JUST the SFW!(GAWD I can't forget the SFW,lol!)

Some Blame JUST the Big Time Outfitters!

etc!

etc!

etc!

I could go on for an Hour but I won't!

Add the Big Picture up Boys,do some Arithmatic!

GOOD GAWD A MIGHTY!







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Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
Good post sttm so now that people have expressed their view i will too. although this study is probably very good in most cases i think it will varry from range to range and to also how abundant game is. i was told and i dont know how true it is but i was told when deer population goes down cougar pop follows the trend and also goes down when cougars are down coyotes are out of hand and rabbit pop along with fawn survival drops off the chart. seems true in the area i hunt but anyways everybody can keep blaming a cat for as long as they want but if you go out and try to catch one its a different ballgame and untill we conduct our own study we wont know whats really going on


"it does'nt matter what kind of boots your wearing, its where those boots take you that matters most."
Steve Pollock rip you will be missed


www.hightopoutfitters.com
 
Greed has killed more deer than lions ever will and will continue to do so. Nobody wants to give up a year of hunting...they'll just blame everything else. Sage you dont trust houndsmen? Well to be honest I dont trust many deer Hunters...party hunting, camp meat, roadhunting sob.s. if you can see that many deer on the Roads.....there must be millions in them areas with little access. Ha ha you like these comments thrown back at you guys? Remember lion Hunters only have to find a track.....if theres no tracks...pretty hard to catch them. next you guys will tell me they can fly right? Keep your head in the sand instead of looking at harvest #s that are facts.
 
Well sage?

If you killed every animal you like to Hunt every chance you got just how long do you think that Species would last?

Yes,most good Hunters are Smart enough to know they wanna go hunting next year,the year after,the year after & Still have something to Pursue No matter what Species it might be!

Huntin Lions might not be your Cup of Tea,and in KALI I'm sure you have a different outlook on it!

Remember sage:

They told/taught us that 'it' Runs down Hill!

They said PayDays were on Friday!

Somebody Lied to us sage,somebody Lied!:D








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Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
STTM I never said it was just bear, I am saying when we do the damage on the yotes that if we dont focus on all predators, while we focus on the yotes and the lions and bears continue to increase then we will be in same boat, keep all predators to a lower number so the deer can rebound. Yes hunting needs to be limited too, yes road kill needs to be limited too. But as we have been pushing habitat, and habitat projects they have not worked.

Again look at data. Cache area has the best fawn production, they have yotes, but what they dont have is a huge population of bear.
 
I don't care if the cougar falls in 5th place for causes for overall deer mortality.

My beef is they are one factor that can be controlled. And if done right provide a direct revenue increase to the DWR. Then a significant indirect increase in revenue when the DWR can sell 50,000 more deer tags per yr.

Habitat restoration costs 100s of millions is totally unproven. And certain types of projects may result in the reason we cant have more than 300,000 deer in Utah.

Hunter restriction although I believe it works I hate it. It reduces revenue. I'm the one who pays for the program. So I want priority not some predator.

Roadkill is probably overstated as of late. ROW fencing and underpasses cost 100's of millions. If truth be known the cost vs deer increase would scare any hunter from wanting to put money into roadkill mitigation. I say if it is done then let the general public foot the bill.

Poaching enforcement is very expensive on a per deer increased basis. I'm satisfied with the system we have today.

Weather we just cant control so no use worrying about it.

Urban sprawl, cant control that one ether. Just be happy it's only happening to about 5% of the deer habitat acreage in Utah. The other %95 is completely undeveloped.
 
Everytime a post gets going about deer, lions, coyotes etc... It always seems to get geared towards Utah. Unless someone asks about a different state. It gets old quick. PRIDE is what will kill the deer off and lions in the "wonderful" state of Utah.
 
>
>Again look at data. Cache
>area has the best fawn
>production, they have yotes, but
>what they dont have is
>a huge population of bear.
>

HUH?? We lost close to 90% of our fawn crop last year on the Cache due to the late wet spring. There weren't enough coyotes or magpies around to keep up with all the fawns keeling over. I just wish we had a few more bear around to clean up the carnage. I dunno CantKiller, better check the expiration date on them mushrooms you've been eatin!
 
LMMFAO Kevin!

Yes cantkilladamnthing, because there is too many Bears killin the Deer for you!:D

Yes cant,We'll throw a number in for the amount of Deer being killed by Bears!

You feel better now?:D

GEEZUS,it's a number not even big enough to worry about,well almost!:D

As wiley says:Carry On.................!




[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]
If You Love Your Country,SHOW THEM TO ME!




Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
How many times must a person explain that in Utah there are multiple harvest objective units. Most do not ever meet the quota given by the dwr. Dont think for one minute that there arent outfitters trying to fill clients, and we've seen on here they'll fill em even with milk dripping off their lips. So why you folks think
Theres all these thousands of lions roaming is beyond me. Do your part then and go buy a friggin tag and get'r done.
 
This is from a lion hunting forum:

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catdogs Post subject: Utah guysPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:56 pm

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:05 am
Posts: 434
Location: Timbuk3 Do any of you guys have and hard numbers as to the correlation between your deer numbers and lion numbers over the last say, 10 years. As I understand it, your deer numbers are still in the toilet even with high lion harvest. Lions are getting thrown under the bus in Montana and Idaho, because of dwindling ungulate herds, mostly of which is wolf related. Just want some numbers to throw back to our biologists. Thanks





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Bplott Post subject: Re: Utah guysPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:22 pm


Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:49 pm
Posts: 368
Location: utah We do not have any hard fact data yet.... because they just barely started colaring our deer and tracking adult survival to get this data...our fawn numbers remain very very low which even the biologists admit winter kill or coyotes.... but over all even our biologist and mammals coordinator will admit even with the over harvest of our lions it has not brought the deer back..... The sportsmen for fish and wildlife(SFW) has convinced all the deer hunters in utah that the lions are the reason for no deer....BUT you cant convince people that urban housing, disease, automobiles, coyotes, and eagles definately hurt deer populations. They have finally started to look into the effects large herds of elk have effected the deer..... It has taken alot of hard work to try and convince the dwr/sfw that lions arent the only problem but they will not admit there wrong!

_________________
IF IT SQUATS TO PEE, LET IT BE....




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southpaw40 Post subject: Re: Utah guysPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:03 am


Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:41 pm
Posts: 27
Location: Utah they might as well let the elk take over now the deer herd sucks i dont care much for deer anyway i rather see the elk then deer. i was reading a thing about utah deer i will try and find it again and post it it said that when we had out highest deer numbers ever we had at the same time period our highest lion numbers





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coldtrail75 Post subject: Re: Utah guysPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:31 pm



Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:17 pm
Posts: 15
Location: Utah I have lived in Utah my whole life and the deer herds are way down. But anybody can look at the the UDWR web and look at the number of lions that have been harvested over the past fifteen years or so. And I think it was in 1996 or 1997 when the harvest objective started and something like 700 total lions killed that year. Well since then the lions have steadily decreased and so have the deer. Lion harvest has been around 250 to 300 lions for the last 6 years or so and the average age is around two years, so that tells me the lions have been over harvested. Now the "elk eating deer" theory may be true in some areas but it doesn't seem to be that way on the limited entry units near as much. So in my opinion the biggest downfall of the deer herds is over harvest. Predators will always be a factor with deer herds but I would bet if by some miracle the deer herds make a comeback, then the lions will too. Bobcat and coyote numbers go up and down when the rabbit populations go up and down ( my opinion ). SFW has made lions out to be the main killers of deer but what about technology in weapons? Rifles that will reach out to 1,000 yards, 300 yard muzzleloaders and archery equipment set up for 80 to 100 yard shots. Lions are NOT what have wiped out the deer in my opinion, so it is up to houndsmen too leave em in the tree if we want lions too hunt.





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tom Post subject: Re: Utah guysPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:23 pm



Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:36 pm
Posts: 24 i have hunted lion and deer as well as run cattle on the same mountain my whole life. both the lion and deer heards are as poor as i have ever seen them but their is no shortage of deer hunters,from september to november their is someone in the woods hunting deer every day. two years ago in one day of deer hunting i saw 68 doe and 0 bucks in a area where i had been seeing good bucks all summer. In my opinion that tells me we have an over hunting problem not a lion problem because lions don't eat only big bucks and let the doe live, they eat whatever is easiest to catch. but the utah DWR need to sale tags to make money and SFW need something to blame for the over hunting of deer, so they sale way to many tags and kill everything with horns that shows its face and the lions get the blame. they are killing off their own sport and are looking for somewhere to put the blame.





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slowandeasy Post subject: Re: Utah guysPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:53 pm


Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:09 pm
Posts: 173
Location: AZ. when it comes to goverment run agencies whether fiish and game or any of the son of a guns. it's not about science, comon sense, or facts from kill reports. its a money grab plain and simple.





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Ringo Post subject: Re: Utah guysPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:28 pm


Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:26 pm
Posts: 77
Location: Kalispell
Location: Montana Well said slowandeasy I blame our fwp hear more then the predators. These guys couldnt manage a fish tank.





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Shorty Post subject: Re: Utah guysPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:51 pm

Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:30 pm
Posts: 461
Location: South Texas
Location: Texas Not trying to stir the pot here, just have a simple question. How is the coyote population in Utah? I know that here at home we see a huge difference in fawn survival rates if we don't hammer the coyotes pretty hard. I've also seen mature deer killed time and time again by coyotes.

Also the coyotes will often eat the lions kill forcing them to kill again and the process repeats. I'm sure the bear would do the same as the coyotes. Like I said I'm not trying to stir the pot. I think this is a good discussion and would like to see it get into deeper thoughts.
Thanks,
Shorty Gorham





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slowandeasy Post subject: Re: Utah guysPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:59 pm


Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:09 pm
Posts: 173
Location: AZ. shorty, this is also very true, i sometimes think coyotes are helping cut the umbilicalcord! but will never cut those money wasting government employee's any slack





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slowandeasy Post subject: Re: Utah guysPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:02 pm

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:09 pm
Posts: 173
Location: AZ. slowandeasy wrote:
shorty, this is also very true, i sometimes think coyotes are helping cut the umbilicalcord! but will never cut those money wasting government employee's any slack
very well said ringo





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tom Post subject: Re: Utah guysPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:41 pm



Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:36 pm
Posts: 24 in my experience when the lions got wiped out the coyotes were the next dominent preditor in line and their population has exploded. as a consiquense the bobcats have really suffered also.





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walkin w/ some blue Post subject: Re: Utah guysPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:49 pm
Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 10:09 pm
Posts: 125
Location: Northern Utah Shorty Are coyote populations are high the past couple years. Alot of utah's problem is winter range and deer being hit on the highways. We have all these people building on the foothills and benches taking away the lower areas for the deer to feed through the winter. Making the winter survival rates drop dramatically. Anyway you look at it in utah the deer are screwed. The F and G are more worried about the elk herd than the deer by far. There are alot of factors in the crappy deer population in utah but lions aren't the big one.





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cougar2 Post subject: Re: Utah guysPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:29 pm

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:35 pm
Posts: 39
Location: utah Here in So. Ut. it's getting alot harder to find a lion to run and I have run across more deer kills from cyotes than lions, I have thought for years that the biggest reason for low deer numbers is from over harvest, MONEY, just my 2 cents.





Seems to me that lion hunters arent trying to hide anything
 
Hunting bucks or not hunting bucks will not increase the herd . Limited entry or reducing tags on general ares only add a few bucks to the herd.
BUCKS DON'T MAKE FAWNS!
FAWNS MAKE BUCKS!
4 to 5 bucks per 100 doe's get em bred. As low as the base herd is, and with a state wide average of even 10 bucks per 100 doe's, will easy get the job done.
250,000 deer can not sustain even 1000 lions state wide, record bear populations and 1 coyote per square mile ( Wildlife services estimate ) .

Definition of insanity; "keep doing the same thing over and over and expect a different result"
Keep managing predators the way we have the last 40 years , expect a sorry deer herd.
I have 30 year old kids , having kids of their own . Sad they'll never see half the deer herd I grew up with.
 
Don't forget about PISS POOR Management & GREED!

Anybody wanna add the number of Does & Fawns Slaughtered with the "DOE SHOOTER" Hunts?

What a Bunch of BULLLSSHIT!






[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]
If You Love Your Country,SHOW THEM TO ME!




Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
Show them , I agree 100 percent .
I don't want to hijack this cougar thread.
So since you brought it up.
Except for Anus most of the wildlife managers have 20 to 30 pluse years STATE employment. Including the director. These same guys came into STATE employ when we had some deer. One 30 year plus DWR BIOLOGIST told me last fall " I guss when the deer decide to recover I guss they will" . So all these career state paid employees , who inherited a good herd will leave a hell of a legacy . Had deer when I came, had none when I retired!!!!'!!!!
And for 30 plus years we've heard the same story. Imagin having a 30 year career with no accountability and retiring with full benefits .
Every meeting I attended, and every committee I sat on or had associates on, started out with a pep talk from the director. I don't care what you do here as long as it dosen't affect my budget!
If the average guy failed at their jod the way these guys have failed we would have been fired long ago.

Go to a web site,, Utahs Right to Know. See what these jobs pay. Then think about who is training the young guys in the DWR. Will this cycle ever end?
 
What baffles me is all the people that say they should shut the state down to deer hunting to let it rebound a year or two.
Well.....why does it take a law to make that happen, just do your own part and don't buy a tag if thats your solution!!

We all see emails to not buy gasoline on a certain day so OPEC will listen, stop buying deer tags so the DWR will listen.....and in the mean time, save a bunch of bucks!
 
Easy there elkun!

I like the roadkill Burgers at the Fort!

If you killed all Cougars who'd fix me a RoadKill Burger?

Besides,the Gutter Hogs are gettin the Deer too,don't believe me,just ask cant!





[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]
If You Love Your Country,SHOW THEM TO ME!




It's been a long hard ride
Got a ways to go
But this is still the place
That we all call home
 
STTM. I SEEN A BIG WHITE RABBIT ON THE WAY TO THE FORT , GOD I HOPE IT WAS THE EASTER BUNNY.,,.,
 
So elkun?

Tomorrows Special at the Fort will be Fresh Fried Rabbit?



[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]
If You Love Your Country,SHOW THEM TO ME!




It's been a long hard ride
Got a ways to go
But this is still the place
That we all call home
 
NO. I DONT F WITH WHITE RABBITS,,BIG OR SMALL..LAST TIME IT COST ME REHAB TIME,,,,
 
So elkun?

What'd the White Bunny give you?

[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]
If You Love Your Country,SHOW THEM TO ME!




It's been a long hard ride
Got a ways to go
But this is still the place
That we all call home
 
A ANOTHER 5 YEARS ON MY HEART, ?? AND A NEW GUN I WON FROM THE MDF. AT THE SPORTS SHOW. HOW ABOUT YOU??
 
Heck you guys even the lion hunters are helping out and most of you don't even know it. Take Catman he took a rich ranch owner out and killed a sub adult female this year, that's probably seven or eight less lions she could have produced in her life time. That is one thing about the Utah sportsman they all sit around and complain when they are part of the problem..
 

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