Time to end the point system

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
10,414
Sat in a camp this weekend with my 2 boys,11 and 6. My nephews from 9 to 2.

Their grandpa will never hunt LE with them. At 66 he will be dead.

I might have a slight chance on a lesser unit(elk or deer) with my oldest, but most likely not my youngest.

My dad died before I drew a Manti elk(he was from Manti). He never drew it.

I have 18 moose points. 8 antelope, 4 elk.

Its time to just stop the point system. Its no longer working. It pretty much hasnt since max point holders quit being guaranteed. And even worse, its unbelievably discouraging to the younger generation.

Before I hear the usual bs, lets remember, the guys in their 40's and older, got to suck up points applying for ALL oil every year.

I have 18 moose points. My odds of drawing, are in the single digits. In the unit I apply for, I will never draw, too many points on too many guys, baring just dumb luck. I put in every year knowing I will never draw, same reason I buy Powerball tickets.

Its time to just be done with the whole mess. Time to go straight up random draw. You didn't "buy" points. You can't sell them. You can't trade them. They aren't transferred like an heirloom when u die. You made a donation to wildlife.

Time to end the point system.





"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
AMEN!!




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
AMEN...x2


323421626570513685990098870652286725493870346854n.jpg
 
NR with 21 deer and 19 moose points. Been trying to hunt Utah for a looong time. I feel your pain! :)
 
I'm sure your talking preference points which I totally agree. Let's do it the Nevada way with bonus points.
 
Yes, Convert the bonus points to preference points. Allow the premium deer units a 40:100 buck to doe ratio. People can pick if they are going to be trophy hunters and wait in line or if they are going to be general hunters.

I knew the bonus point system was officially ridiculous when the DWR sold cow moose points, but no hunts were available. Now its going to be a long time before you have max points on a cow moose if you missed a year. The resident cow moose tag is $100 cheaper than an out-of-state bull tag in Ak. Just put a few more days of driving and a few hundred more in gas and do a real moose hunt in the year you pick.

LE Pros: 1) L.E. was a great boost for outfitters which on the surface is a plus. 2) I drew a 2007 Boulder Mountain elk and loved the hunt. It was a great experience. 3) Its been a big revenue generator for the state. 4) Its worked well for elk hunters. There are ample spike and cow tags for meat hunters while allowing trophy opportunities. (Conversely, we could stand to have a couple of more mountain ranges that allow branch antlered general elk hunts or easy-to-draw units.)

LE Cons: 1) I didn't know what a 350 class bull was before L.E. I liked it better when hunters spoke in terms of 28" 4 point instead of 181 & 7/8. 2) Its been the vehicle by which special interests (trophy hunting organizations) have hijacked game management and hosed general hunters.
 
Not sure I understand your point. There is also a chance that you never get drawn on a random tag. Trophy hunts are for people who are willing to play the game and build points. Yes it's sucks that I might have to wait 20 plus years to hunt a true trophy in a so called trophy unit but that doesn't mean there are not tons of units that you can hunt now. Trophy is all what you make it. Take your dad and sons on an otc or spike unit and enjoy what hunting is truly about. Take a trip into a LE unit and bring the camera and enjoy the time together. I might never get a book animal and my kids might never also. But we will have spent many nights in the mountains together on lesser units hunting our hearts out.
Keep the point system, keep the otc units and more than anything get involved in improving habit and herds.
Buy the way there are always people bringing out trophy animals in otc units. It's not easy but you can do it
 
No, I mean zero points. No preference, no bonus. Just "name in a hat" every year. Every species. If you want to limit oil to one species that might work. Maybe even one choice for areas. But no advantage to anyone INCLUDING draws for CWMU.

You give the 12yr old the exact same odds I get, same as the 70yr old who got to pad points before rule changes.. LE still exists. Oil still exists.

I realize GO HUNT, Eastmans, etc might not like that change, but other than that I don't see how guides get hurt, statistically the same deep pocket could draw every year.

Lastly, and maybe Hawkeye or the other lawyers might know, but how is it legal under age discrimination laws to have a system set where younger folks are penalized for being younger?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
This is a simple supply and demand problem. The only way around the problem is to reduce the amount of hunters or increase the amount of tags. Many people remember the days of unlimited deer tags and if it would have continued, there would eventually be nothing left to hunt for anyone.

We are dealing with a finite resource in wildlife that is a fact. There is not enough opportunity/supply available to please the consumer base, another fact.

I don't enjoy shopping for guns at Cabelas, because if there are five gun counter guys and 20 customers, I have to take a number and wait my turn. I either wait my turn or look at my options. I can go to another gun store or find something else entirely to do.
 
Where are the Oct sheep, goat or moose tags? You should really study the numbers. 20 yes is not realistic. In fact, honest guides will tell you, if your 30 or older, forget EVER hunting sheep, and most likely moose.

Btw, "trophy" isn't true either. I at 43yrs old, hunted open bull elk on the Manti. We were sold it becoming LE and it being a "trophy" unit. 6+ yr old bulls. I believe the Nebo and Wasatch were as well. All 3 were reduced to ease the point creep pressure. The "trophy" LE system as it was originally set up has been changed continuously.

Ya, I'm totally aware you may never draw in an open random system. But, look at the current system. The young folks, are facing that reality now.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Only thing that ever happens with this kind of change is you really screw the guys that will draw their units in the following year that have been in line waiting a lot of years. No its a mess and far from perfect, but remember 50% of the tags go in a random draw already seems you forgot about that. Supply is just to big for demand now a days.
 
>Only thing that ever happens with
>this kind of change is
>you really screw the guys
>that will draw their units
>in the following year that
>have been in line waiting
>a lot of years.
>No its a mess and
>far from perfect, but remember
>50% of the tags go
>in a random draw already
>seems you forgot about that.
> Supply is just to
>big for demand now a
>days.


I think you mean demand is too big for supply ;-)
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17 AT 11:57AM (MST)[p]I'm 27. I've had 2 LE tags and 1 OIL tag so far. Not to mention a GS deer tag every year since I could apply. Throw in many, many antlerless, swan and Sandhill tags up to this point. Within the next 10 years I bet I draw my mtn goat tag and atleast 1 LE tag (I bet it's probably 2), definitely a cow moose, several doe muley, pronghorn and cow elk tags and probably a GS deer tag just about every year. Quit putting in for San Juan, antelope island and the Henry's. Apply for practical units.There's tons of hunting opportunities out there for youth, middle aged and older people. If you wanna abandon the points system, that's probably because you weren't consistent in applying for everything you can every year you could and now it's not "fair" that you might not ever draw the tag when someone else your age is drawing or damn close to drawing that same tag.

And I'm so sick of hearing about giving youth more opportunities. They get plenty. If your kids aren't getting out and hunting every weekend from August to January in Utah, you have no one to blame but yourself. There is way more opportunities for kids than adults in this state.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17 AT 01:42PM (MST)[p]
>To make it fair they should
>cancel all the auction tags
>for 2 years and give
>max point holders their tags.
>

If my kids really want to get their ass kicked, all they have to say is: THAT'S NOT FAIR!.
LIFE IS NOT FAIR! Some people get hit by lightning, some get cancer, some draw tags and some don't!

THERE SEEMS TO BE A MISCONCEPTION FLOATING AROUND THAT LIFE IS SUPPOSED TO BE FAIR, IT ISN'T!

Participation trophies make a weak society!
 
So many ways fix the problem yet no one willing to organize and demand changes. Utah actually has a very good system 1/2 and 1/2. You do have a random chance on every single draw. It is hilarious to me to hear everyone scream that opportunity is more important than quality. Yet the back up on points on every single species would show that exact opposite.

Yeah for sure have Hawkeye go to work on it. I'm sure that will fix the problem. How about understanding the system and working to get some new options added. It could be fixed but fighting it in court is counter productive to the hunting community.

Hoss, your kids have more chance or opportunity to hunt across the board than previous generations. That is a fact. It may not be the exact unit or animal you want to chase but overall they have way more options to experience hunts with grandpa than ever before.
 
Discrimination against the youth?? You gotta he high!! If anything hunters between 19-62 are discriminated against. It's a pretty easy fix; quit letting youth apply for LE permits until they are 16yo, extend the waiting period; if you draw a LE permit of any kind your on the bench for 3 years on all LE species. No surrendering of any permits w/o a doctors excuse or military orders. Kick the permits up to 75% for max point holders. That would change some sh*t
 
>
>Participation trophies make a weak society!
>

Isn't the accumulation of a PP the hunting tag equivalent of a participation trophy?
 
One problem with the Utah point system is that there are thousands of people each year who are allowed to accrue LE points AND hunt.

For example, thousands of people put in for LE Elk and Deer, reducing the chances of everyone else putting in, and then they go buy CWMU tags and hunt what is otherwise a LE unit anyway.

My first action would be that if you draw or buy a CWMU tag in Utah, you burn your LE points. Why..?? Because the thousands of people who can afford to buy those tags will still be able to buy those tags every year, but they will be taken out of the LE Bonus point pool, leaving higher odds for those who remain. Then they will have to choose between putting in for the LE unit, OR hunting on a CWMU, not both.

Second, choose between "general season" and "Limited Entry". This is a tough pill, but in Utah, we now have two point systems, making everything pretty much "Limited Entry" anyway. Imagine for a moment that all 37,000 resident LE Deer permit applicants in 2017 were not allowed a general season tag if they put in for LE... What would that do for the General Season areas..?? It would mean that after a few years, they could be just as good as some LE Units. And, many people would choose to do General Season only, especially those with private land they want to hunt. (I know, your'e thinking, well, not all 37,000 will stay in the LE Draw- and that only helps the point creep.)

These first two ideas I've had are both aimed at reducing and eliminating point creep. Possibly to the point where it is no longer an issue even.

hossblur's idea is a jagged little pill. Random draw every year..?? It might work. But the commercial hunting industry (outfitters, landowners/leasers, conservation groups) own the DWR and Utah caters to their needs very, very well.

I think I'll just go out and get rich, then I won't have to worry about it. :)

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
The problem is too many guys have no clue how the point system works. They think their buddy drew a sheep tag with 16 points so they will too. But they only had 6 when he had 16. They don't realize they most likely will never draw point permit.

Currently, guys sitting on 13 Desert Bighorn sheep points are 60+ years out from being in the top pool (which can change as people die off). So he would be at least 27 years old now and add 60 = 87 if there is no change. He might reduce that to 70ish with deaths of other applicants. So he might draw by 2060. Waaahhhhhooooooo.

I like the idea of capping points. Say 25 points is the max you can obtain. Keep it 50-50 split and allow everyone to get to a level playing ground. Some of these tags are 1 in 100+. So a guy would have to outlive other applicants to ever draw in the 50% guarantee. I also like the waiting periods.

Does anyone really think we will have the same tag issuing structure in 2060 as we have today?
 
>One problem with the Utah point
>system is that there are
>thousands of people each year
>who are allowed to accrue
>LE points AND hunt.
>
>For example, thousands of people put
>in for LE Elk and
>Deer, reducing the chances of
>everyone else putting in, and
>then they go buy CWMU
>tags and hunt what is
>otherwise a LE unit anyway.
>
>
>My first action would be that
>if you draw or buy
>a CWMU tag in Utah,
>you burn your LE points.
>Why..?? Because the thousands of
>people who can afford to
>buy those tags will still
>be able to buy those
>tags every year, but they
>will be taken out of
>the LE Bonus point pool,
>leaving higher odds for those
>who remain. Then they will
>have to choose between putting
>in for the LE unit,
>OR hunting on a CWMU,
>not both.
>
>Second, choose between "general season" and
>"Limited Entry". This is a
>tough pill, but in Utah,
>we now have two point
>systems, making everything pretty much
>"Limited Entry" anyway. Imagine for
>a moment that all 37,000
>resident LE Deer permit applicants
>in 2017 were not allowed
>a general season tag if
>they put in for LE...
>What would that do for
>the General Season areas..?? It
>would mean that after a
>few years, they could be
>just as good as some
>LE Units. And, many people
>would choose to do General
>Season only, especially those with
>private land they want to
>hunt. (I know, your'e thinking,
>well, not all 37,000 will
>stay in the LE Draw-
>and that only helps the
>point creep.)
>
>These first two ideas I've had
>are both aimed at reducing
>and eliminating point creep. Possibly
>to the point where it
>is no longer an issue
>even.
>
>hossblur's idea is a jagged little
>pill. Random draw every year..??
>It might work. But the
>commercial hunting industry (outfitters, landowners/leasers,
>conservation groups) own the DWR
>and Utah caters to their
>needs very, very well.
>
>I think I'll just go out
>and get rich, then I
>won't have to worry about
>it. :)
>
>"Therefore, wo be unto him that
>is at ease in Zion!"
>2 Ne. 28: 24

That is what I've always thought. It's going to be easier to make lots of money and buy tags every year than to rely on what has become the wildlife welfare system. No more taking a number and waiting.
 
I Ain't Throwin 2+ F'N Decades of Earned Points away!

I Said The Point System Wouldn't Work before they started it & Fought against it!

They Said it would work!

I said it would work somewhat for a while!

I Also said down the Road it'd get so far out of Balance that Young Kids would probably say F'it!

But Nobody believed the Ole cat!

I Ain't Giving up My Points Hoss!

When/After I Get Lucky enough to Burn them/Draw the Permit do as you Wish!









Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!

A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
Here is my strategy.

I have 8 LE elk points I put in archery in southern utah. After I draw this tag I then apply for wasatch, nebo or manti the next go around.

Deer I have no tag this year and drew the west desert vernon years ago. May put in for the henries after I draw elk. If not I can try for a books tag or cwmu maybe.

Moose- I have 12 I'm in it for the long haul how I will hunt sheep, mtn. goat I don't know. May have to look into other states.

Also I'm going to focus on making as much money as I possibly can and may have to resort to buying tags down the road and if I can I will because point creep is pretty bad.

The last option may be the best at getting some quality animals killed. Until then I just need to put in for more states as well and hunt some decent units that are capable to produce giants. How you get rid of the auction tags. I don't know because that fight is like sueing the federal govt. You're going up against a huge system that doesn't want you taking it's high dollar revenue.
 
As was already pointed out, points are hunting participation trophy.

If your 27, u started hunting big game at 12. The age was lowered twice for you. But you got yours so screw it?

As for "kids can hunt every year" bs line, so can a 50yr old, why is your desire to hunt big game more important than a 12 yr old?

Finally, why was it ok to change the entire tag process by doing points, then do it again by limiting species, but a process set up decades ago is supposed to be chiseled in stone?

Finally #2, I love the "back in the day lectures", but the same guys are too bullheaded to realize that hunting, and its acceptance are dying. We don't have political clout, and every kid we lose is a voter at some point, need to check themselves

Finally #3, every one of U that hunts ANY BIG GAME, does so because the generations previous made it possible, sure good they didn't have the "too damn bad attitude" a bunch of guys have, or YOU would be "doing something else"

Finally #4, when you kick your kids azz for "life not being fair", will you then allow them to return that kicking when you cry about doing away with points not being fair to you?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Lots and lots of options. Complaining that people apply for LE and then just buy CWMU is not one of them in my opinion. What if I put in for LE and then go buy a CO landowner permit? Or draw in another state? Its not the outfitters that control this its the opportunists whining that everyone (especially kids) should have a tag in their pocket every single year. I think we should allow you to hunt one animal a year. Whether its, a landowner tag, LE tag, General Tag, Spike Elk, Open Bull, Cow, Doe, one tag for a big game animal an that is it. I would give the most hunters opportunity.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17 AT 04:32PM (MST)[p]>As was already pointed out, points
>are hunting participation trophy.
>
>If your 27, u started hunting
>big game at 12.
>The age was lowered twice
>for you. But you
>got yours so screw it?
>
>
>As for "kids can hunt every
>year" bs line, so can
>a 50yr old, why is
>your desire to hunt big
>game more important than a
>12 yr old?

I couldn't start applying until I was 14. No age limits were lowered that I benefited from. That happened after I could start applying.

Kids already get a percentage of the permits given to them from the permit pool. There are special hunts just for youth. There are archery only permits just for youth. The list goes on and on. I didn't say my desire out weighs a kids desire to hunt big game. All I said is the youth are already catered to enough in this state. There are tons of benefits of being a youth in this state that most of us, including me, never had when they were a youth hunter. The opportunities are endless for them, and most programs designed just for youth have terrible participation rates. (Ironically, the parents who fought so hard for more youth oriented hunts, are also the ones responsible for not utilizing these youth hunts). And we wanna give them more?? They don't need anymore than what they already have.
 
>Lots and lots of options.
>Complaining that people apply for
>LE and then just buy
>CWMU is not one of
>them in my opinion.
>What if I put in
>for LE and then go
>buy a CO landowner permit?
> Or draw in another
>state? Its not the
>outfitters that control this its
>the opportunists whining that everyone
>(especially kids) should have a
>tag in their pocket every
>single year. I think
>we should allow you to
>hunt one animal a year.
> Whether its, a landowner
>tag, LE tag, General Tag,
>Spike Elk, Open Bull, Cow,
>Doe, one tag for a
>big game animal an that
>is it. I would
>give the most hunters opportunity

Ya that's the worst idea I've heard yet
 
"It is hilarious to me to hear everyone scream that opportunity is more important than quality. Yet the back up on points on every single species would show that exact opposite".

I don't really follow your logic here. Just because I put in for a limited entry hunt, doesn't mean quality is more important to me.
 
I agree with Muley. CWMU is another whole ball of crap.

No one, at least me is saying you should have a tag every year. What everyone of us should have is simply a chance. You don't have to get fancy every hunter of age can put in for one LE species each year, same as now. One OIL same as now. But each hunter gets one chance. Super simple. Easier to conduct drawing.





"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17 AT 04:39PM (MST)[p]Muly73,

Don't share the 1 tag/yr idea with the relief society. It would probably get enough support that it would go through.
 
Johnny,
How about I share the name of the person that first made that suggestion? He's currently in a high level federal position.

Again lots of options and no one willing to listen or think outside the box to fix things.

Oh and Johnny which relief society would you be referring to? The one that has actually organized on occasion to get things passed and changed? Do you even really know the relief society that I actually talk with? Lol... funny
 
>As was already pointed out, points
>are hunting participation trophy.
>
>If your 27, u started hunting
>big game at 12.
>The age was lowered twice
>for you. But you
>got yours so screw it?
>
>
>As for "kids can hunt every
>year" bs line, so can
>a 50yr old, why is
>your desire to hunt big
>game more important than a
>12 yr old?
>
>Finally, why was it ok to
>change the entire tag process
>by doing points, then do
>it again by limiting species,
>but a process set up
>decades ago is supposed to
>be chiseled in stone?
>
>Finally #2, I love the "back
>in the day lectures", but
>the same guys are too
>bullheaded to realize that hunting,
>and its acceptance are dying.
> We don't have political
>clout, and every kid we
>lose is a voter at
>some point, need to check
>themselves
>
>Finally #3, every one of U
>that hunts ANY BIG GAME,
>does so because the generations
>previous made it possible, sure
>good they didn't have the
>"too damn bad attitude" a
>bunch of guys have, or
>YOU would be "doing something
>else"
>
>Finally #4, when you kick your
>kids azz for "life not
>being fair", will you then
>allow them to return that
>kicking when you cry about
>doing away with points not
>being fair to you?
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"

as to #4 I wouldn't cry about it in the first place, but yes I give them every opportunity to return the kicking, sometimes they try ;-) Just like I don't cry about the fact that I had to wait until 16 for my first big game hunt and they at 12.


Maybe the Gov't will let us trade our points in for 40 acres and a mule.
 
Deerkiller,
How is it the worst idea? It's not fair that some people get multiple tags. It's not fair that some hunters are ok to shoot antlerless and still apply for LE making it harder for trophy hunters to draw. It's not fair for trophy hunters to make it harder for hunters that just want to meat to draw tags in areas they would like to hunt. None of it is fair, I'm just trying to spread the wealth and make it as fair as possible.
 
I have two teenagers that have hunted 3 limited entry hunts between the two of them. Both drew there first year. They have also hunted general season each year. Tell us again how there is no hope for the younger generation? I have also hunted every LE species and 1 OIL. Just like my kids and the new hunters putting in we all start over at 0. If I choose to put in for the Henry's I will probably never draw like everyone else. That's why I choose wisely. Once again......life ain't fair!
 
I care little about where the idea came from. Regardless of its management implications, a lot of women would love it.
 
>Deerkiller,
>How is it the worst idea?
> It's not fair that
>some people get multiple tags.
> It's not fair that
>some hunters are ok to
>shoot antlerless and still apply
>for LE making it harder
>for trophy hunters to draw.
> It's not fair for
>trophy hunters to make it
>harder for hunters that just
>want to meat to draw
>tags in areas they would
>like to hunt. None
>of it is fair, I'm
>just trying to spread the
>wealth and make it as
>fair as possible.

How is it not fair? I've religiously applied for bonus and preference points every year for every species I'm eligible to apply for. After waiting in line for several years at a time, it absolutely is fair that I can have the possibility of drawing more than one tag a year. If I'm lucky enough to draw several tags in a year good for me. We are already restricted enough. Quit wanting even more restrictions. I'm an opportunity hunter. If I can shoot a big buck/bull, awesome. If I can shoot a doe/cow, that's awesome too. Even more awesome if I can do both in the same year
 
>Johnny,
>How about I share the name
>of the person that first
>made that suggestion? He's
>currently in a high level
>federal position.
>
He's also an major accomplice to one of the biggest poaching incidents this state has seen in the last 10 years. He's proven he's not in this for the best interest of the average hunter
 
>I have two teenagers that have
>hunted 3 limited entry hunts
>between the two of them.
>Both drew there first year.
>They have also hunted general
>season each year. Tell us
>again how there is no
>hope for the younger generation?
> I have also hunted
>every LE species and 1
>OIL. Just like my kids
>and the new hunters putting
>in we all start over
>at 0. If I choose
>to put in for the
>Henry's I will probably never
>draw like everyone else. That's
>why I choose wisely. Once
>again......life ain't fair!


Why is it so difficult to understand? Not advocating for fairness in results, if you draw every year great. The point is for fairness in chance. And no, guys that had the chance to start putting in the first few years of the point system and guys who started this year aren't even close to being in the same point. And no, if you can do math. Starting today, if your over 30, you have statistically ZERO percent chance at sheep, moose. If "we all start at zero" is no big deal to you, then why is starting at zero every year so scary?

Again don't confuse fairness of results and fairness of opportunity.

Funny, I remember having to front the money to apply. I don't remember all you rigid guys complaining when they made it fair for guys without the scratch to front to apply like those who planned ahead. Bet your azz that was a major irritant to guys who had the money.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
People often confuse point systems with odds. Point systems do not affect overall odds.

If there 100 guys applying for 7 tags, the odds will always be 7%. It doesn't matter how many tickets each guy gets in the hat, the number always comes back to 7%. Where people really get confused is thinking that if they put their name in the hat 10 times then they have a better chance of drawing a tag. The problem is that everybody else also has their name in the hat 10 times (or 7 or 12). Ultimately, 7 guys will draw a tag and 93 will be unlucky... regardless of "points".

The reason behind points isn't to adjust the odds, its to attempt to increase the likelihood of equality over time, in other words the likelihood that one person won't draw three tags before another guy has even drawn his first. But again, the overall odds never change.

The only true way to affect odds of drawing a tag is to increase tags or decrease applicants. Ultimately nothing else matters. Since our current unofficial management plan calls for very high success rates on all LE and OIL hunts, the seasons must be during prime killing dates. Compare our rut elk dates for example with every other state; where other states push elk hunts later in the year when success decreases and thus can increase tags, Utah desires 100% success rate and must severely limit tags to place the hunts throughout September.

The other problem with points is that there was an arbitrary date picked whereupon everybody of hunting age and inclination could start accumulating that "point". If you were too young, not yet hunting, financially incapable, etc... you are now at a disadvantage leveled by the arbitrary date at which the point system was implemented. How is this the "fairness" that the point pimps claim they desire?

The best system I can see is an Idaho-style draw. There, people can choose to put in for deer/elk/antelope OR one OIL species. These draws are completely free of all point systems and purely random.

This would limit applications by forcing hunters to choose between applying for the three non-trophy species every year OR throwing your hat in for a single OIL hunt and be left with General Season tags or Leftover deer/elk tags to fill their freezers. It basically puts every hunter into a capitalistic-market system where the value of each tag is assigned by the desires of the hunter who can also adjust their applications as their desires change over the years.

This also means the most desiring hunters are the ones who can draw since they had to forego other species just to participate in that particular drawing. The worst idea I've heard is letting everybody apply for all species... all that does is increase applications for each tag without increasing the number of tags. By definition that decreases odds. Sure, you get to put your name in more hats, but so does everybody else, and thus odds DO NOT improve.

There is no reason the youth of today should be penalized simply because of the year they were born and its relation to some arbitrary date a point system was implemented.

Grizzly
 
>if your worried about youth tags,
>draw a tag and mentor
>your kid.

Which one of my 2 kids do I mentor a sheep tag to?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Johnny,
Still waiting on an answer on which relief society you were referencing?

You guys all crack me up. Let's fix the system. Wait not if it effects me negatively. Selfishness is the root of most issues within the hunting community. Poaching, opportunities, trophies....it all falls under selfishness. Utahs current system tries to accomicate all sides. It does that but is could be much better.
 
>>if your worried about youth tags,
>>draw a tag and mentor
>>your kid.
>
>Which one of my 2 kids
>do I mentor a sheep
>tag to?
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"


I'm Not giving 22 of them up hoss!







Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!

A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
Best system in the west is probably Idaho, at least with respect to the best odds for drawing limited high demand tags for elk, Sheep, Moose, and Mt Goat. This is because there's no point system whatsoever. And if you choose to apply for Moose, or for Bighorn Sheep, or for California Bighorn Sheep, or for Mt Goats, you cannot apply for any other of the Big-4 that year, nor can you apply for Limited Elk or Limited Deer that year. And if you choose to apply for Limited Deer or Limited Elk, you cannot apply for any of the Big-4 that year. No worries though, since you're not missing out on accruing points. You can freely switch up your app strategy from year to year.

And of course there is a one per lifetime limit on all of the Big-4. The net result for Idaho is that they have, by a huge margin, the best resident odds for drawing any/all of the Big-4, of any state in the west. As a general rule, most Idaho residents who choose to apply for the Big-4 will have a good chance to draw all 4, plus Cow Moose, which actually makes 5, in their lifetimes. To my way of thinking that is a good system. This is also the reason that Idaho resident hunters have fought tooth and nail to stop legislative efforts to put a point system in place.

Harder to assess is how this might work in Utah. The big difference being that Idaho has more more game and habitat.
 
>Johnny,
>Still waiting on an answer on
>which relief society you were
>referencing?
>
>You guys all crack me up.
> Let's fix the system.
>Wait not if it effects
>me negatively. Selfishness is
>the root of most issues
>within the hunting community.
>Poaching, opportunities, trophies....it all falls
>under selfishness. Utahs current
>system tries to accomicate all
>sides. It does that
>but is could be much
>better.

That's my point. The system shouldn't accomidate anyone.

Funny how the generations that make fun of participation trophies, are so protective of theirs


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
>People often confuse point systems with
>odds. Point systems do not
>affect overall odds.

>
>If there 100 guys applying for
>7 tags, the odds will
>always be 7%. It doesn't
>matter how many tickets each
>guy gets in the hat,
>the number always comes back
>to 7%. Where people really
>get confused is thinking that
>if they put their name
>in the hat 10 times
>then they have a better
>chance of drawing a tag.
>The problem is that everybody
>else also has their name
>in the hat 10 times
>(or 7 or 12). Ultimately,
>7 guys will draw a
>tag and 93 will be
>unlucky... regardless of "points".
>
>The reason behind points isn't to
>adjust the odds, its to
>attempt to increase the likelihood
>of equality over time, in
>other words the likelihood that
>one person won't draw three
>tags before another guy has
>even drawn his first. But
>again, the overall odds never
>change.
>
>The only true way to affect
>odds of drawing a tag
>is to increase tags or
>decrease applicants.
Ultimately nothing else
>matters. Since our current unofficial
>management plan calls for very
>high success rates on all
>LE and OIL hunts, the
>seasons must be during prime
>killing dates. Compare our rut
>elk dates for example with
>every other state; where other
>states push elk hunts later
>in the year when success
>decreases and thus can increase
>tags, Utah desires 100% success
>rate and must severely limit
>tags to place the hunts
>throughout September.
>
>The other problem with points is
>that there was an arbitrary
>date picked whereupon everybody of
>hunting age and inclination could
>start accumulating that "point". If
>you were too young, not
>yet hunting, financially incapable, etc...
>you are now at a
>disadvantage leveled by the arbitrary
>date at which the point
>system was implemented. How is
>this the "fairness" that the
>point pimps claim they desire?
>
>
>The best system I can see
>is an Idaho-style draw. There,
>people can choose to put
>in for deer/elk/antelope OR one
>OIL species. These draws are
>completely free of all point
>systems and purely random.
>
>This would limit applications by forcing
>hunters to choose between applying
>for the three non-trophy species
>every year OR throwing your
>hat in for a single
>OIL hunt and be left
>with General Season tags or
>Leftover deer/elk tags to fill
>their freezers. It basically puts
>every hunter into a capitalistic-market
>system where the value of
>each tag is assigned by
>the desires of the hunter
>who can also adjust their
>applications as their desires change
>over the years.
>
>This also means the most desiring
>hunters are the ones who
>can draw since they had
>to forego other species just
>to participate in that particular
>drawing. The worst idea I've
>heard is letting everybody apply
>for all species... all that
>does is increase applications for
>each tag without increasing the
>number of tags. By definition
>that decreases odds. Sure, you
>get to put your name
>in more hats, but so
>does everybody else, and thus
>odds DO NOT improve.
>
>There is no reason the youth
>of today should be penalized
>simply because of the year
>they were born and its
>relation to some arbitrary date
>a point system was implemented.
>
>
>Grizzly

What he said.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
>Deerkiller,
>How is it the worst idea?
> It's not fair that
>some people get multiple tags.
> It's not fair that
>some hunters are ok to
>shoot antlerless and still apply
>for LE making it harder
>for trophy hunters to draw.
> It's not fair for
>trophy hunters to make it
>harder for hunters that just
>want to meat to draw
>tags in areas they would
>like to hunt. None
>of it is fair, I'm
>just trying to spread the
>wealth and make it as
>fair as possible.


This reminds me of hanging out in Walmart just to watch those spoiled little baztards kicking and screaming on the floor: "IT'S NOT FAIR!"
 
>>Deerkiller,
>>How is it the worst idea?
>> It's not fair that
>>some people get multiple tags.
>> It's not fair that
>>some hunters are ok to
>>shoot antlerless and still apply
>>for LE making it harder
>>for trophy hunters to draw.
>> It's not fair for
>>trophy hunters to make it
>>harder for hunters that just
>>want to meat to draw
>>tags in areas they would
>>like to hunt. None
>>of it is fair, I'm
>>just trying to spread the
>>wealth and make it as
>>fair as possible.
>
>
>This reminds me of hanging out
>in Walmart just to watch
>those spoiled little baztards kicking
>and screaming on the floor:
>"IT'S NOT FAIR!"

But "its not fair" that You have points that would be lost under a model in which its a straight draw. Again, congrats you were older than 14 the year points came about. If you were 13, then you got screwed on that deal.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
>Johnny,
>How about I share the name
>of the person that first
>made that suggestion? He's
>currently in a high level
>federal position.
>
>Again lots of options and no
>one willing to listen or
>think outside the box to
>fix things.
>
>Oh and Johnny which relief society
>would you be referring to?
>The one that has actually
>organized on occasion to get
>things passed and changed?
>Do you even really know
>the relief society that I
>actually talk with? Lol...


>funny

You're talking about the Relief Society group of mice on "The Rescuers" Where they organize a group of mice to rescue Penny the Orphan. Good movie!
 
>Best system in the west is
>probably Idaho, at least with
>respect to the best odds
>for drawing limited high demand
>tags for elk, Sheep, Moose,
>and Mt Goat. This is
>because there's no point system
>whatsoever. And if you choose
>to apply for Moose, or
>for Bighorn Sheep, or for
>California Bighorn Sheep, or for
>Mt Goats, you cannot apply
>for any other of the
>Big-4 that year, nor can
>you apply for Limited Elk
>or Limited Deer that year.
>And if you choose to
>apply for Limited Deer or
>Limited Elk, you cannot apply
>for any of the Big-4
>that year. No worries though,
>since you're not missing out
>on accruing points. You can
>freely switch up your app
>strategy from year to year.
>
>
>And of course there is a
>one per lifetime limit on
>all of the Big-4. The
>net result for Idaho is
>that they have, by a
>huge margin, the best resident
>odds for drawing any/all of
>the Big-4, of any state
>in the west. As a
>general rule, most Idaho residents
>who choose to apply for
>the Big-4 will have a
>good chance to draw all
>4, plus Cow Moose, which
>actually makes 5, in their
>lifetimes. To my way of
>thinking that is a good
>system. This is also the
>reason that Idaho resident hunters
>have fought tooth and nail
>to stop legislative efforts to
>put a point system in
>place.
>
>Harder to assess is how this
>might work in Utah. The
>big difference being that Idaho
>has more more game and
>habitat.


Well there you go?.Let's all movie to Idaho. Problem Solved! :)
 
>>>if your worried about youth tags,
>>>draw a tag and mentor
>>>your kid.
>>
>>Which one of my 2 kids
>>do I mentor a sheep
>>tag to?
>>
>>
>>"The only thing that stops a
>>bad guy with a gun
>>is a good guy with
>>a gun"
>
>
> I'm Not giving 22 of
>them up hoss!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650
>is a Little Close &
>I'm Not Comfortable with it!
>
>
>A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards
>will Still Make Some Good
>BRAGGIN Rights so I Can
>Say I At Least Hit
>Him!
>
>
>
>
90087hankjr.jpg


Try selling them, or willing them to your kids. Might shock u what you "own"


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
>>>>if your worried about youth tags,
>>>>draw a tag and mentor
>>>>your kid.
>>>
>>>Which one of my 2 kids
>>>do I mentor a sheep
>>>tag to?
>>>
>>>
>>>"The only thing that stops a
>>>bad guy with a gun
>>>is a good guy with
>>>a gun"
>>
>>
>> I'm Not giving 22 of
>>them up hoss!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650
>>is a Little Close &
>>I'm Not Comfortable with it!
>>
>>
>>A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards
>>will Still Make Some Good
>>BRAGGIN Rights so I Can
>>Say I At Least Hit
>>Him!
>>
>>
>>
>>
90087hankjr.jpg

>
>Try selling them, or willing them
>to your kids. Might shock
>u what you "own"
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"

Hey Hoss, what about a head-on collision with a high-speed freight train? Pretty sure that will stop a bad guy with a gun.

Would it make any difference if it was a BULLET TRAIN!
 
My first signature ever!
A BULLET TRAIN! The only other thing besides a good guy with a gun, that will stop a bad guy with a gun ;-)
 
>>>>>if your worried about youth tags,
>>>>>draw a tag and mentor
>>>>>your kid.
>>>>
>>>>Which one of my 2 kids
>>>>do I mentor a sheep
>>>>tag to?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"The only thing that stops a
>>>>bad guy with a gun
>>>>is a good guy with
>>>>a gun"
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm Not giving 22 of
>>>them up hoss!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650
>>>is a Little Close &
>>>I'm Not Comfortable with it!
>>>
>>>
>>>A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards
>>>will Still Make Some Good
>>>BRAGGIN Rights so I Can
>>>Say I At Least Hit
>>>Him!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
90087hankjr.jpg

>>
>>Try selling them, or willing them
>>to your kids. Might shock
>>u what you "own"
>>
>>
>>"The only thing that stops a
>>bad guy with a gun
>>is a good guy with
>>a gun"
>
>Hey Hoss, what about a head-on
>collision with a high-speed freight
>train? Pretty sure that will
>stop a bad guy with
>a gun.
>
>Would it make any difference if
>it was a BULLET TRAIN!
>

Ummm, I have an ultra mag, it stops everything


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17 AT 09:22PM (MST)[p]>>>>>>if your worried about youth tags,
>>>>>>draw a tag and mentor
>>>>>>your kid.
>>>>>
>>>>>Which one of my 2 kids
>>>>>do I mentor a sheep
>>>>>tag to?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"The only thing that stops a
>>>>>bad guy with a gun
>>>>>is a good guy with
>>>>>a gun"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm Not giving 22 of
>>>>them up hoss!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650
>>>>is a Little Close &
>>>>I'm Not Comfortable with it!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards
>>>>will Still Make Some Good
>>>>BRAGGIN Rights so I Can
>>>>Say I At Least Hit
>>>>Him!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
90087hankjr.jpg

>>>
>>>Try selling them, or willing them
>>>to your kids. Might shock
>>>u what you "own"
>>>
>>>
>>>"The only thing that stops a
>>>bad guy with a gun
>>>is a good guy with
>>>a gun"
>>
>>Hey Hoss, what about a head-on
>>collision with a high-speed freight
>>train? Pretty sure that will
>>stop a bad guy with
>>a gun.
>>
>>Would it make any difference if
>>it was a BULLET TRAIN!
>>
>
>Ummm, I have an ultra mag,
>it stops everything
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"
Had several of those. 6.5 ultramag and a .375 ultramag, wasn't impressed. Now my .50 bmg with armor-piercing incendiary tips, that stops stuff!

A BULLET TRAIN! The only other thing besides a good guy with a gun, that will stop a bad guy with a gun ;-)
 
>LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17
>AT 09:22?PM (MST)

>
>>>>>>>if your worried about youth tags,
>>>>>>>draw a tag and mentor
>>>>>>>your kid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Which one of my 2 kids
>>>>>>do I mentor a sheep
>>>>>>tag to?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"The only thing that stops a
>>>>>>bad guy with a gun
>>>>>>is a good guy with
>>>>>>a gun"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm Not giving 22 of
>>>>>them up hoss!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650
>>>>>is a Little Close &
>>>>>I'm Not Comfortable with it!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards
>>>>>will Still Make Some Good
>>>>>BRAGGIN Rights so I Can
>>>>>Say I At Least Hit
>>>>>Him!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
90087hankjr.jpg

>>>>
>>>>Try selling them, or willing them
>>>>to your kids. Might shock
>>>>u what you "own"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"The only thing that stops a
>>>>bad guy with a gun
>>>>is a good guy with
>>>>a gun"
>>>
>>>Hey Hoss, what about a head-on
>>>collision with a high-speed freight
>>>train? Pretty sure that will
>>>stop a bad guy with
>>>a gun.
>>>
>>>Would it make any difference if
>>>it was a BULLET TRAIN!
>>>
>>
>>Ummm, I have an ultra mag,
>>it stops everything
>>
>>
>>"The only thing that stops a
>>bad guy with a gun
>>is a good guy with
>>a gun"
>Had several of those. 6.5 ultramag
>and a .375 ultramag, wasn't
>impressed. Now my .50 bmg
>with armor-piercing incendiary tips, that
>stops stuff!
>
>A BULLET TRAIN! The only other
>thing besides a good guy
>with a gun, that will
>stop a bad guy with
>a gun ;-)


.17hmr closest in would have to an ultra mag


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Just for some of you PUNK-ASS-ROOKIES!

A Few of us did have to wait till We were 16 to Hunt Big Game!

So There's 4 Years of Hunting We'll Never get Back!

And 4 Years that were Far Better than what it is today!








Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!

A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
>
>Just for some of you PUNK-ASS-ROOKIES!
>
>
>A Few of us did have
>to wait till We were
>16 to Hunt Big Game!
>
>
>So There's 4 Years of Hunting
>We'll Never get Back!
>
>And 4 Years that were Far
>Better than what it is
>today!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650
>is a Little Close &
>I'm Not Comfortable with it!
>
>
>A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards
>will Still Make Some Good
>BRAGGIN Rights so I Can
>Say I At Least Hit
>Him!
>
>
>
>
90087hankjr.jpg


Thanks for making my point better than I could Bess. This point fiasco.
If you were born prior to some arbitrary moment in time, you are ENTITLED to Sheep, Moose, San Juan elk, Henry's Deer. Its your birthright. Born a day late, well you young fellas, go occupy yourself anterless hunts, or swans.
Or go to some other state(still waiting for those OTC Sheep tag lists).

Now young bucks, we are gonna sit around and tell you how the system needs to remain in tact. We hope you won't notice that the original system YOU FRONTED THE MONEY. Or that YOU COULD POINT FOR MORE THAN ONE SPECIES. We want you flatbrimmers to listen to what we say, and not point out we are full of chit.

We are gonna sit around, telling you all about how "we all started at zero", hoping that cc math you all do doesn't show you that when we did "start at zero" on year one, EVERY ONE OF US WAS IN THE MAX POINT POOL. Or that with 3 tags, and 60 max guys, you start at zero, but are still at zero 40 years later.

Now here's the rub you young dumazzes. We let all of n utah go CWMU. We let 316 tags go into groups. We created vast swaths of LE that because of your age you will NEVER access. We cut deer tags from the 250k we had, to our present number. But we are gonna sit around and bs you about how good things are for u compared to when we were a kid. We EXPECT you to vote the way we do. WE expect you to invest in gear to support Pitman Robinson. We expect you to show up and support a system that 100% discriminates against you because of your birthday. So sit down, shut up, leave us old guys to our participation trophies, and our entitled positions.

Thank God guys like Teddy Roosevelt didn't have you all attitude or places like yellowstone would be a CWMU. But lets at least be honest. For all the yapping about the Millenials, in this sport, the older guys are the self serving, me first, entitled, participation trophy, members.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
>>Best system in the west is
>>probably Idaho, at least with
>>respect to the best odds
>>for drawing limited high demand
>>tags for elk, Sheep, Moose,
>>and Mt Goat. This is
>>because there's no point system
>>whatsoever. And if you choose
>>to apply for Moose, or
>>for Bighorn Sheep, or for
>>California Bighorn Sheep, or for
>>Mt Goats, you cannot apply
>>for any other of the
>>Big-4 that year, nor can
>>you apply for Limited Elk
>>or Limited Deer that year.
>>And if you choose to
>>apply for Limited Deer or
>>Limited Elk, you cannot apply
>>for any of the Big-4
>>that year. No worries though,
>>since you're not missing out
>>on accruing points. You can
>>freely switch up your app
>>strategy from year to year.
>>
>>
>>And of course there is a
>>one per lifetime limit on
>>all of the Big-4. The
>>net result for Idaho is
>>that they have, by a
>>huge margin, the best resident
>>odds for drawing any/all of
>>the Big-4, of any state
>>in the west. As a
>>general rule, most Idaho residents
>>who choose to apply for
>>the Big-4 will have a
>>good chance to draw all
>>4, plus Cow Moose, which
>>actually makes 5, in their
>>lifetimes. To my way of
>>thinking that is a good
>>system. This is also the
>>reason that Idaho resident hunters
>>have fought tooth and nail
>>to stop legislative efforts to
>>put a point system in
>>place.
>>
>>Harder to assess is how this
>>might work in Utah. The
>>big difference being that Idaho
>>has more more game and
>>habitat.
>
>
>Well there you go?.Let's all movie
>to Idaho. Problem Solved! :)
>

Noooo!!!! Stay away! Lol
 
We could add more bull tags by lowering the age classification across all units to a 5 year old bull.

We could add more opportunity by allocating permits based on harvest percentage of weapon type. Triple archery allocations and reduce by two thirds the rifle rut tags.

We could implement a split season hunt schedule to get more people through the system faster.

We could get the rifle hunt out of the rut, lowering success and preserving more bulls.

Or we could stick with the pyramid scheme y'all been sold.

Spit out the hook people.

WTFO Begin




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
muley73,

Thank you for reminding me to never try to be funny on the internet. Let me explain my thoughts in sincere detail as painful as it is. Your idea is a reasonable one, not without its problems, but it is certainly reasonable. I usually do one big game hunt as that's I'll I realistically have time for, but some years I like to sneak in an antlerless hunt. My wife would love it if I was legally limited to one hunt, I know many other wives who would like your idea. So even if it 1 tag/yr. is the perfect management plan,for purely selfish reasons, I'm begging you not to let the LDS Relief Society know about this - its the biggest organization of women in Utah and the world, has a strong presence in rural areas, and would likely get your idea through in a New York second. Way more powerful than SFW, but they are a sleeping giant.

Please no more follow up questions, I'm not funny, I've learned my lesson.
 
I would be okay eliminating the points system as long as there was a transition period (i.e. in 5 or 10 yrs the change takes effect). This would allow those who have built points for ~20 years to use it or lose it.

Still allow just one LE species app and one OIL species app. Keep LE waiting periods.
 
What I've read in many posts above is nothing more than "what benefits me and mine the most and to hell with the rest of you guys". Just "adults whining" about covers it and we use the "youth" card to attempt a rational thought.

Changing any tag distribution system benefits some and punishes others. It's really that simple.

The youth will draw something if they stay the course since old dudes draw, drop out or die (and even some young ones die too). There's always something to hunt, period.

Remember this; odds wouldn't change all that much anyway and not everyone will have a sheep tag, EVER. There is, and will always be, too much demand.

My points are gone or really low so it would benefit me to see points dissolved but it would hurt others.

Zeke

#livelikezac
 
Oh and wiley starts to mix up the batter. It goes for deer, elk, lope. The OIL are a little tougher but there are options there too. All of those things would create more opportunity AND you could sustain and even increase quality.

This was one of the main reasons I personally pushed so hard for Option 2 a few years ago. It opened the door to more management options on every unit. Lets be real and understand that the demand is higher than the supply with big game. So we have to get creative and outside the box with our management. The old status quo will not improve things.

Why not make 6 more archery only units for deer. Make them LE and issue 500 tags on each. 3500 tags per year on units that would grow big bucks. If you did that you would be amazed at how many hunters would jump to those units if you could draw them every 3 or 4 years. Start at 500 and go from there. If your buck to doe and age class keep increasing you could jump to 700-800. that would be 5000 hunters a year going through the LE pipeline.

Do the same on a few elk units. Look at Fish Lake or Wasatch units. If you shot for a 5 year old age class and made those units archery only you could pump 1000s through the elk LE yearly and still have big bulls to chase.

You would also improve rifle and muzzy odds because I guarantee you would have many "trophy hunters" jump the archery if they could draw them every 3-4 years rather than wait 10-15 to rifle hunt. If you wait 10-15 for rifle will then you still would have a shot at killing 3 or 4 mature bulls in your hunting lifetime.

There are many more options that could be implemented, but it takes work and a desire to improve not just go with the status quo. The DWR will never work outside the status quo unless they are forced to. I promise!!!!
 
What Zeke said!

Always something to hunt. May not be what you want or where you want it but opportunity exists.

I have a 9 year old and an 11 year old, so I understand the frustration they may have towards their future ability to hunt sheep, moose, goat, or high end LE elk and deer units. However, they have choices. If they want the cheapest option then plan on waiting a long time and possibly never getting the chance in the State they reside. If they want a more expensive option then apply in multiple States and be prepared to wait a slightly shorter amount of time and possibly never get a tag. If they want the most expensive option then buy your tags and hunts. Just be prepared to bust your ass in school, spend years in higher education then years paying your dues on the job to get to the income levels that allow you to buy tags. All the while knowing that it may never happen for them. Like it or not those are the options. Whether draws are totally random, totally PP based or any combination thereof those are still the options.
 
Cody, thats the point of my post...

There can be no change... No management... Nothing different because these point systems create an entitlement group that would lose their damn minds.

So instead of managing for the masses and the benefits of our herds we manage for two of the smallest demographics in the hunting community. Max point holders and wealth tag buyers.

I've said for years. Create a five year phase out period for this point pyramid scheme, go straight luck of the draw with no waiting periods.




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
How many years into a pure "luck of the draw" system until the same people whining about the point system are whining that we should change the system again to reward those that have applied the longest?

I do not believe there is any perfect system to draw big game tags when the demand so vastly outnumbers the supply, like here in Utah. But I like Utah's system. I understand the crappy nature of point creep and how that will impact me and my children going forward, but I could wait just as long or longer in a straight lottery style draw as well. It is what it is. Not perfect, but neither is any other option.

Again, it would be less than 10 years into a new system before most of the same people would start whining about the new system as well. Some people can never be appeased.
 
>How many years into a pure
>"luck of the draw" system
>until the same people whining
>about the point system are
>whining that we should change
>the system again to reward
>those that have applied the
>longest?
>
>I do not believe there is
>any perfect system to draw
>big game tags when the
>demand so vastly outnumbers the
>supply, like here in Utah.
>But I like Utah's system.
>I understand the crappy nature
>of point creep and how
>that will impact me and
>my children going forward, but
>I could wait just as
>long or longer in a
>straight lottery style draw as
>well. It is what it
>is. Not perfect, but neither
>is any other option.
>
>Again, it would be less than
>10 years into a new
>system before most of the
>same people would start whining
>about the new system as
>well. Some people can never
>be appeased.

What he said^^^^.
That's a perfect assessment!

Zeke

#livelikezac
 
I have 20+ pts for LE and haven't drawn yet. Had 5 pts when I drew a LE SWD archery elk tag. BTW, I'm a NR.

The UT system works, but I'd much rather have the NV system. I'm not a fan of the systems that allocate a percentage of tags to the applicants with the greatest number of points. Without a doubt the CO preference point system is the worst!!
 
>I would be okay eliminating the
>points system as long as
>there was a transition
>period (i.e. in 5 or
>10 yrs the change takes
>effect). This would allow
>those who have built points
>for ~20 years to use
>it or lose it.
>
>Still allow just one LE species
>app and one OIL species
>app. Keep LE waiting
>periods.

I'd say 5 years. But I totally agree otherwise


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Gordy,
With the suggestions that I made it leaves top in units for those groups while creating more units that would burn points. I also believe those units would start to produce bigger animals and create a less pressured atmosphere that would draw even more hunters away from the traditional top end units. It would be a very very easy fix to a complex problem.

But the people of Utah fear change and have trouble thinking for themselves and it puts us all in a static state. Good thing I have fallen in love with hunting coues deer and my boys have become fly fishing addicts. And I'm willing to pay to play the game in multiple states. Maybe moving to Utah County will help be see the light now. LOL
 
I am not going to read everything that has been written and something needs to be done. My solutions is this: You can apply for any and all of the draws and if you do draw you loose all of your points regardless of the hunt. Only exceptions are those hunts where the applications are not as many as the permits. In one year 90% of the bonus points will be gone.
 
>Cody, thats the point of my
>post...
>
>There can be no change... No
>management... Nothing different because these
>point systems create an entitlement
>group that would lose their
>damn minds.
>
>So instead of managing for the
>masses and the benefits of
>our herds we manage for
>two of the smallest demographics
>in the hunting community. Max
>point holders and wealth tag
>buyers.
>
>I've said for years. Create a
>five year phase out period
>for this point pyramid scheme,
>go straight luck of the
>draw with no waiting periods.
>
>
>
>
>
>"If the DWR was just doing
>its job, and
>wildlife and hunting were the actual
>focus,
>none of this process would even
>matter.
>But that is not the focus
>or the goal in any
>
>of this. The current DWR regime,
>and
>SFW were born out of wildlife
>declines,
>and are currently operated and funded
>
>under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
>
>tags would not even be worth
>anything if
>the focus was where it was
>supposed to
>be, and wildlife and tags were
>plentiful.
>But under the current business model,
>
>that is how the money and
>power is
>generated. It is generated through the
>
>rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
>resource. A resource that is supposed
>to
>be being beneficially managed for the
>
>masses that own that resource, ie.
>US.
>The problem is obvious, hedging is
>not a
>long term sustainable strategy, and
>others have to lose, for some
>to win. In
>this case it is us, the
>many, and our
>resources, that are being forced to
>lose,
>because there is a minority who's
>power
>and money is derived from our
>loses."
>
>LONETREE 3/15/16

Hey ww!

Just by a General Elk Tag if all You Want is a PISSCUTTER!

JUDAS!








Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!

A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
Option A: True point system...no bonus..no squaring, no random # sequence, no leaving it up to luck of the draw, no hybrid..

Eventually top points will expire and youth will have their shot if hi-demand hunts are their priority.

Set aside 2 tags per species, per unit/zone (if mgmt can't allow 2 additional animals, get it fixed) and do open date $1-5 raffle tag and one local auction. Spread that expo $ brought to SLC/Vegas/etc to smaller communities with series of smaller events.

OptionB:

Give everyone a tag so odds of having something to hunt are always 100% and hope ppl are good stewards.
 
tx,
That is the most absurd idea to come from a Texan ever on MM, and that my friend is an enormous accomplishment!
 
>tx,
>That is the most absurd idea
>to come from a Texan
>ever on MM, and that
>my friend is an enormous
>accomplishment!


Well, I try to set the bar high.
 
Its amazing to me how hard it is for guys to get the difference in fairness of opportunity vs fairness of results.

Its pretty simple. You shouldn't get an advantage o the PUBLICS wildlife based on when you were born. PERIOD. There is more demand than supply, but that demand is not greater at 60 than at 15. That 15yr old should have the exact same chance at a sheep, or Henry's as that 60yr old. I read posts all the time condemning the deep pockets ADVANTAGE in buying tags, end running draws, waiting periods. However those same guys will scream bloody murder that anyone suggest they lose their ADVANTAGE, based on what year they are born.

A straight up lottery, with zero points, bonus or preference ensures fairness of opportunity. There would be zero fairness in results. A guy could conceivably draw an LE elk every five years, or perhaps never. You don't get bonus points in the Powerball. You don't playing a slot machine, or betting the ponies.

We need to think further down the road than this year. If you have kids coming up how do you tell them they are hunters, like all the rest of us, but forget a whole block of hunts,because their birthday is wrong? How do you expect them to care about sheep or moose, when they aren't EVER going to have a chance at one?

Hunting should not be the tax code where we carve out exceptions and niches for various parties.




"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Keep the point system. But either way it is fair. People need to stop complaining and do there best to work with the system at hand.
 
>I think they need some Senior
>tags for us old farts.
>

Ya!

What about the Old Bastards?

They Count for anything?








Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!

A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
>>I think they need some Senior
>>tags for us old farts.
>>
>
>Ya!
>
>What about the Old Bastards?
>
>They Count for anything?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650
>is a Little Close &
>I'm Not Comfortable with it!
>
>
>A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards
>will Still Make Some Good
>BRAGGIN Rights so I Can
>Say I At Least Hit
>Him!
>
>
>
>
90087hankjr.jpg


Sure. They don't count for MORE though.

Like I said I'm not 12. I'm 43. In my deer camp there are more 60+ than 12 yr old. I'd like that to continue. I hope I'm one of those 60+ guys in a camp with kids. Guys keep saying there's "plenty of opportunity" for young guys, but when that gets flipped, older guys believe their LE, OIL opportunity is more important. The same lines of anterless, spikes, apply to everyone, not just kids.

Funny thing, most of the guys arguing, won't ever draw either, they just don't do the math. Do the math, unless you are maxed, your odds don't improve, you just get mesmerized by you point total






"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
>I agree, they need to give
>the seniors 70 plus more
>tags!

I tried to get that done on the Mule Deer Committee, but it became a standing Geezer Tag joke that I even enjoyed. It never happened, but at least they heard it. We'll just have to give them a little more time to grow up, I mean mature.:)
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-07-17 AT 11:10PM (MST)[p]>Its amazing to me how hard
>it is for guys to
>get the difference in fairness
>of opportunity vs fairness of
>results.
>
>Its pretty simple. You shouldn't
>get an advantage o the
>PUBLICS wildlife based on when
>you were born. PERIOD.
> There is more demand
>than supply, but that demand
>is not greater at 60
>than at 15. That
>15yr old should have the
>exact same chance at a
>sheep, or Henry's as that
>60yr old. I read
>posts all the time condemning
>the deep pockets ADVANTAGE in
>buying tags, end running draws,
>waiting periods. However those
>same guys will scream bloody
>murder that anyone suggest they
>lose their ADVANTAGE, based on
>what year they are born.
>
>
>A straight up lottery, with zero
>points, bonus or preference ensures
>fairness of opportunity. There
>would be zero fairness in
>results. A guy could
>conceivably draw an LE elk
>every five years, or perhaps
>never. You don't get
>bonus points in the Powerball.
> You don't playing a
>slot machine, or betting the
>ponies.
>
>We need to think further down
>the road than this year.
> If you have kids
>coming up how do you
>tell them they are hunters,
>like all the rest of
>us, but forget a whole
>block of hunts,because their birthday
>is wrong? How do
>you expect them to care
>about sheep or moose, when
>they aren't EVER going to
>have a chance at one?
>
>
>Hunting should not be the tax
>code where we carve out
>exceptions and niches for various
>parties.
>
>
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"


A BULLET TRAIN! The only other thing besides a good guy with a gun, that will stop a bad guy with a gun ;-)


That is just straight up retard logic. It will all even out in the end. Those who have been putting in for 20 years and may now have an advantage over someone who is young and just starting to put in for draws and points. Assuming groups of both ages have a 50 year hunting career span, Those older guys will be dead and out of the system 20 years before the younger ones. As the older generation dies off or burns their points on a draw, those max point holder numbers will continue to drop and the younger hunters with less points now, will steadily accumulate points and rise to the upper end of the point curve. Eventually becoming max point holders.

To say older hunters have an advantage over younger hunters is taking a short sighted view of things and not comparing that overall 50 year career span.

There will always be up and down fluctuations over time depending on hunter and tag numbers. This is always going to be outside the control of any draw system however.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Sep-07-17
>AT 11:10?PM (MST)

>
>>Its amazing to me how hard
>>it is for guys to
>>get the difference in fairness
>>of opportunity vs fairness of
>>results.
>>
>>Its pretty simple. You shouldn't
>>get an advantage o the
>>PUBLICS wildlife based on when
>>you were born. PERIOD.
>> There is more demand
>>than supply, but that demand
>>is not greater at 60
>>than at 15. That
>>15yr old should have the
>>exact same chance at a
>>sheep, or Henry's as that
>>60yr old. I read
>>posts all the time condemning
>>the deep pockets ADVANTAGE in
>>buying tags, end running draws,
>>waiting periods. However those
>>same guys will scream bloody
>>murder that anyone suggest they
>>lose their ADVANTAGE, based on
>>what year they are born.
>>
>>
>>A straight up lottery, with zero
>>points, bonus or preference ensures
>>fairness of opportunity. There
>>would be zero fairness in
>>results. A guy could
>>conceivably draw an LE elk
>>every five years, or perhaps
>>never. You don't get
>>bonus points in the Powerball.
>> You don't playing a
>>slot machine, or betting the
>>ponies.
>>
>>We need to think further down
>>the road than this year.
>> If you have kids
>>coming up how do you
>>tell them they are hunters,
>>like all the rest of
>>us, but forget a whole
>>block of hunts,because their birthday
>>is wrong? How do
>>you expect them to care
>>about sheep or moose, when
>>they aren't EVER going to
>>have a chance at one?
>>
>>
>>Hunting should not be the tax
>>code where we carve out
>>exceptions and niches for various
>>parties.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>"The only thing that stops a
>>bad guy with a gun
>>is a good guy with
>>a gun"
>
>
>A BULLET TRAIN! The only other
>thing besides a good guy
>with a gun, that will
>stop a bad guy with
>a gun ;-)
>
>
>That is just straight up retard
>logic. It will all even
>out in the end. Those
>who have been putting in
>for 20 years and
>may now have an advantage
>over someone who is young
>and just starting to put
>in for draws and points.
>Assuming groups of both ages
>have a 50 year hunting
>career span, Those older guys
>will be dead and out
>of the system 20 years
>before the younger ones. As
>the older generation dies off
>or burns their points on
>a draw, those max point
>holder numbers will continue to
>drop and the younger
>hunters with less points now,
>will steadily accumulate points and
>rise to the upper end
>of the point curve. Eventually
>becoming max point holders.
>
>To say older hunters have an
>advantage over younger hunters is
>taking a short sighted view
>of things and not comparing
>that overall 50 year career
>span.
>
>There will always be up and
>down fluctuations over time depending
>on hunter and tag numbers.
>This is always going to
>be outside the control of
>any draw system however.

Get out a calculator, do some math. It doesn't balance out. Your also hoping that kid sticks around for 50 years. With less and less access to land, and smaller and smaller odds as compared to us "grandpas", what do offer?

A very smart, very rich developer once told me, "numbers are all that matter". Emotions, feelings, are all just that. When you bust out the calculator, actually look at all the dudes with max and near max, then see the tag numbers, 3/4 of you ain't ever drawing. EVER. You get so mesmerized at seeing "he drew with 20, I have 19, next year is the year" fantasy you never look at the 50 other guys with 20 points, meaning your decades away, not next year. Now look at that from a 12yr old.

But, I guess your access to these species and units should be based on when your old man talked his way into some loving one night, that makes total sense.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Take the OIL tags out of the mentor program! That will reduce the number of applications. Or, better yet, apply the consequences of using ANY of the permits in the mentor program to BOTH the mentor and the mentee. After all, as we're so often reminded on this forum, it is only a HUNTING permit and doesn't guarantee a kill, and both of them are HUNTING. Waiting periods, OIL rules, number and type of additional permits, seasons, etc. apply to both. The kid is allowed to do only what the adult is allowed to do.

Stick closer to the Mule Deer Management Plan! Issue enough permits to bring/keep the buck to doe ratios within the unit objectives. And issue enough doe permits to bring/keep them within the population objectives.

Increase the deer archery permit percentages and add some Extended Archery Areas and Hunts to that program (deer units that are over population objectives and buck to doe ratios and/or elk units where population numbers need to be reduced or eliminated).

I'll add more as I think of them, but for now I need the computer for more important things. (Yes, there are more important things in life than hunting.)
 
>I think they need some Senior
>tags for us old farts.

Ya know I agree, if you are still hunting after 70 you should be able to even shoot out of the window of a vehicle. You also should also be required to shoot a flintlock ML and wear buckskins. Of course I am kidding.

This year I drew the management hunt on the Pauns with four points and I am going to mentor my Grandson. The point is this: The archers used to claim a longer hunt and they got it because the bow was not as lethal as a gun and their percent kill was less(unless you count the wounded ones that died). Of course with these 100 yard bows that is no longer the case.

Put a tag in an over 70 person and the kill percentage goes way down therefore put more 70+'ers in the mountains and save the deer.
>
 
>Take the OIL tags out of
>the mentor program! That will
>reduce the number of applications.
>Or, better yet, apply the
>consequences of using ANY of
>the permits in the mentor
>program to BOTH the mentor
>and the mentee. After all,
>as we're so often reminded
>on this forum, it is
>only a HUNTING permit and
>doesn't guarantee a kill, and
>both of them are HUNTING.
>Waiting periods, OIL rules, number
>and type of additional permits,
>seasons, etc. apply to both.
>The kid is allowed to
>do only what the adult
>is allowed to do.
>
>Stick closer to the Mule Deer
>Management Plan! Issue enough permits
>to bring/keep the buck to
>doe ratios within the unit
>objectives. And issue enough doe
>permits to bring/keep them within
>the population objectives.
>
>Increase the deer archery permit percentages
>and add some Extended Archery
>Areas and Hunts to that
>program (deer units that are
>over population objectives and buck
>to doe ratios and/or elk
>units where population numbers need
>to be reduced or eliminated).
>
>
>I'll add more as I think
>of them, but for now
>I need the computer for
>more important things. (Yes, there
>are more important things in
>life than hunting.)
>
>

More important things in life than hunting?

DAMN YOU! DAMN YOU TO HELL FOR EVEN THINKING THAT! ;-)
sorry but somebody had to say it :)

A BULLET TRAIN! The only other thing besides a good guy with a gun, that will stop a bad guy with a gun ;-)
 
I feel for us that are in that experienced old age group(senior citizen) But if you want to fill the hunting ranks when we are gone. Kids should be the first tags pulled on any draw right now period, followed by a family group draw.
Families that hunt together seem to have younger hunters that are better and safer hunters.
Grow the ranks will pay off in the long run.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
>Lee,
>Didn't you have multiple tags this
>year? Or last? Like 4
>tags total? Or more?

Last year I drew an antlerless deer tag and bought an archery elk tag OTC.

This year, I drew a general season archery buck deer permit and an archery buck antelope tag and was given a depredation antlerless deer tag by a friend and I bought an archery elk tag OTC.

But why did you ask?
 
I too have grown tired of the points game(s) in various states. Perhaps G&F agencies can just quit issuing them? Those with many points already accumulated (like CAT) can still use them......until they are all phased out (since no additional points are accrued after draw) in a few years. After that, return to a simple random draw for all applicants. ???

BOHNTR )))---------->
 

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