My Personal View?

manny53

Long Time Member
Messages
5,257
I've been coming around here; MM.com since 2001, I have enjoyed most of what goes on round here, that can be considered real hunting, but the last few years or so it seems the big money hunters have been dominating the usual magazines and even this place at times.

I used to buy their videos and the magazines; like Eastmans n muleycrazy, but I just figure why should I contribute to their pot so they can hunt all the exclusive units year after year, while the average Joe gets to sit back and wait, waiting on his umpteen points to build n by the time he draws he's too damb old to climb them hills... nah?.

I don't know about you but I'm sick of seeing the same ole face?s with monster bucks n Bulls in their hands on the cover, such as Clint Hiber, I mean how many 40? bucks do you have to shoot before you say hey maybe that's enough now an help the average Joe out n maybe let him kill just one monster buck.

I've seen all the BS comments concerning this issue more then once, they go on to justify this practice, till the cows come home, but at the end of the day there's no difference, I see these guys as greedy self centered egotistical little rich boys.

Now I know some of you are gonna say I'm just jealous, n I'll never convince you of any thing, but is it time or is it too late to change this practice, I guided for blacktails 11 years n each year I would donate two hunts one to the Rocky Mt. Elk Foundation and another to the local public for some kid to harvest his first buck.

Now some go on to say the money goes to good use, blah; when was the last time you saw that money change an anti hunters opinion.

Never? because those high $ hunts are a thorn in the side of the hunting industry? sorry just fed up nuf said?
 
I would have to agree with most of what you wrote. The money goes to good use, but like here on the AZ strip for example, what are the chances of a regular guy getting a shot at a 250+ buck- probably never going to happen. Every water source has at least one trail cam if not fifteen and once a great buck has been located there are dozens of guys looking for it, surrounding the country it lives in and usually the buck gets killed by an auction hunter. Your average guy doesn't have a chance. I am torn on the auction tags, if trail cam use was banned it would help the average hunter, but I don't want to start that conversation. I personally have trail cams, but now they haven't gotten so out of control especially on the strip that it is ridiculous- those huge bucks don't stand a chance.
 
I just don't buy magazines anymore. All of them pretty much suck. Its always the same article. 10 best boots, 10 best bows,10 best ways to hunt big elk and so on so on so on. I get sick of seeing ads. Hunting shows have gone down hill. I can watch a couple of them and that's about it. The hunting industry has become super expensive. I cant justify a pair of binos for 2 grand.

but now im in a stage where my boy is stoked about animals and hunting so I know where my time needs to be spent
 
The pleasure I derive from hunting has nothing to do with what other hunters are doing, whether they are rich or "average Joes", like me. I don't drive a fancy car or live in a big house but I really don't care. I've had to work two jobs most of my life to pay for hunts, but somehow I have carved out a nitch that I enjoy.
If you are looking at this site or hunting magazines as a measure of your opportunity or success, then I think you have missed the boat! We live in the land of opportunity and I try to jump on every one in my reach.
I waited my turn and cashed in hard earned points and killed a 200"typical muley two years ago. A buck of my dreams. I didn't buy it, but I earned it after 18 years of waiting and then not squandering the opportunity. No guide, just me and my son.
In my mind, you have two choices if you don't like the way it is: Do your part to change your circumstances or give it up!
 
Ditto.

I've let all my magazine subscriptions expire, I'm sick of paying hundreds for backpacks, having the newest, quietest, sexiest, this, that or the other...........high dollar hunts, everyone always wonders what it takes to kill a big buck or bull. MONEY. You got money, you can have the greatest trophy room money can buy. Hunting is so competitive, so kill driven. Doesn't seem like guys go out just to enjoy the adventure of hunting. I've definitely got a bad taste in my mouth about the whole deal
 
At this point, I purchase only Muley Crazy, but agree that the 240 inch bucks repeatedly killed by the same auction tag holders and their "posses" are a turn-off. I would much rather read the stories written by some 65 year-old Joe that has been collecting points half his life and who happened into a great buck on his own.

I remember a story written by the son of one of the other outfitters/magazine publishers who took a great buck that he had scouted early on, but never bothered to show his paying clients.

In my opinion, the closer the ties between hunting and money, the cheaper the experience. For some, cheap thrills are enough.
 
So basically, what you are saying is that all of these so called "money people", affect YOUR life and hunting quality? If that is true, I feel sorry for you.

Go hunting, enjoy what is available to YOU and get everyone else and how THEY hunt, out of your mind!

It is retarded to allow other people to upset you to the point that it interferes with your life.

If you get upset or offended by ANY website forum
post.....especially mine, you need serious
intervention!"
 
I don't let it bother me. Every year I see the people out in the field that worship the magazines and and allow cabellas and other big name sporting goods stores prey off of them. These guys show up in their expensive clothes, get out of their expensive rigs, try to hunt with thier expensive rifles. They arrive after me and leave before me....emptyhanded. Let em enjoy their rich life. Over half of their population cannot hunt without a guide anyways. Us less "elite" hunters will continue to appreciate the hunt the way it was intended to be. I live for it every year, and my turn at the general season hunts is just days away!!! Cannot wait! Persue your passion to the fullest. Life is too short to complain man!
 
"Hope is what can drive a man insane"
-Red


Class warfare never produces happiness. Look past the scapegoats and deal with the real issues and challenges facing hunters. Littlebighorn said it well.
 
>"Hope is what can drive a
>man insane"
>
>
>
>
>
>-Red
>
>
>Class warfare never produces happiness.
>Look past the scapegoats and
>deal with the real issues
>and challenges facing hunters.
>Littlebighorn said it well.

I disagree. I think manny said it well. We can all crawl into our own closer and do what's best personally, or stand up and do what's best for our heritage. Sometimes class warfare is needed.

www.unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
"I disagree. I think manny said it well. We can all crawl into our own closer and do what's best personally, or stand up and do what's best for our heritage. Sometimes class warfare is needed."


Above all else YOUR HERITAGE is a capitalist society built on a foundation of liberty. The fact that you are willing to fight and legislate against that for the sake of a hobby, I find disturbing. I see how people make comments about who is the better hunter here all the time and even on this thread. When people turn to class warfare it just shows that they either failed, or worse to cowardly to try, developing their own wealth. Class warfare is never NEEDED, and almost always a shameful act of simpletons who decide they are entitled to something they can't use logic and effort to get.
 
I feel the same way nfh does.

I'm just glad most of my hunting career was over by the time this "trophy hunting" and hunting for "the one" got started on a grand scale. We had a few back then for sure, but they were looked upon mostly as insecure, self centered, look at me type. I used to feel sorry for them in a way. I certainly didn't want to spend time hanging out with them. I for sure didn't want to be like them.

Up until a few years ago I never even took a camera when I went hunting.

I would hate to live in the prison of the modern day trophy hunter. It seems like it's more about the photo than the hunt.

Eel
 
I wouldn't stop buying magazines because people pay for exclusive hunts from the proceeds. I would stop buying them because there isn't any information that is going to help me be a better hunter.

I don't mind the fact that exclusive type hunting is becoming bigger. I do mind when hunters of influence mock the general hunts and try to turn them into limited entry hunts.

A lot of hunters with influence hate the general hunt and do their best to get rid me. They view me as a threat. They fight to cut my dates, my areas, and my opportunities. This of course is done in the name of "biology." It's never classified as preference.

So I guess a second reason I don't buy their garbage is I don't like how they lobby with with the proceeds.
 
I agree with a lot of what this post states. I on the other hand certainly don't let it effect me. I tie my own boots, draw my own bow, load my own gun and hike all by myself without anyone carrying me. I do hate seeing the same guys in every incredible pic but I can promise you that they feel they have earned every inch of every buck or bull. For the most part they are the ones that have built their empire's, studied their asses off and created their financial freedom that allows them to do what they do. I can say for sure that I wouldn't change they way I hunt if I was made of money but I absolutely would buy the best tags available and have no shame in it. I subscribe to Huntin Fool and from what I've seen over the past 8 years its a quality mag. I've yet to find a good hunting show that you get more hunting than selling. Hope this eases your pains and allows you to "water your own lawn" so to speak.

"I'll see you all this coming fall in the Big Rock Candy Mountains!"

 
I agree with you here, Nickman, and am relieved that the places that I have opportunity to hunt mostly suck--at least they don't get much attention from the outfitters. While I could not derive much satisfaction from a hunt that depends heavily on the assistance of others, the fact that others do presents no problem to me unless I were to arrive at my favorite spot one morning only to find that access to the area has been assumed by the paid, non-tag holding representatives of another man who's primary goal is to prevent legitimate tagholders from approaching "their" deer. Perhaps I am wrong, but this is the perception I have of many of these high-dollar guided hunts, and would be curious to know if any MM members can speak to this.
 
That Eel guy is pretty smart. And in case you guys didn't notice it the first time, just reread his post.

Don't buy the rags. Don't buy the videos. Don't watch the shows. Don't idolize or feel anyone is a hero just cause they shoot big antlers.
 
IDk maybe I'm just getting old, or maybe it's this f'd up economy but I'm 56 now hunted Colorado, Nv, ID, Or. Cali, n Canada, n now my knees hurt, i've passed up allot of bucks there only to take 30" plus buck in Sask a few years ago.

I don't need anyone to agree I know what I seen transpire through the years
feel sorry for my boys they keep asking me to take them outta state, I say for what to kill a buck smaller then you can in your own state...nah
 
For me, Im only interested in DIY, public land posts or articles. If I click on a post and see pics with the guides name I instantly lose interest. To each his own though.
 
Agreed, Gazelle.....private land and guided is NOT the same; I'm not sure private is even close...guided is far more OK, when it's deep into the wilderness.

The money is screwing things up......my (now 10) son may well have to be a millionaire in order to hunt by the time he's my age.

WE need to be much more interested in passing the legacy on....more than the profit that seems to motivate so many 'hunters'.


Within the shadows, go quietly.
 
manny,
Open and read the post "1st Deer" by 300Win, just posted on this Forum.
I see two really happy sportsmen, a father and son, thrilled with their deer and excited to share it and their experience with all of us.

Where you ever like them?

Has your satisfaction and exception changed over 35 years? When did you stop feeling like this young man? Do you think he hopes he can learn more, improve his skills, get more days afield as soon as he gets that drivers license so he can "hunt more", like you did when you started? Do you think he'll every say to his Dad, "last year was great but, lets find a bigger on this year"? Did you every think like that, before you developed your current point of view?

You may be one that would answer "No", many others can't honestly say they're not just like 300Win and his son, thrilled with the harvest and the whole experience that went with it.

If you had large amounts of discretionary money would you use some of it to hunt private land, or buy limited entry permits, or hire skilled guides who have spend a lot of time and money locating the best an area has to give, for you to stalk and shoot? If the guide asked you to publish the hunt in a magazine or online, so others could see the kind of game that guide could locat for his business clients, would you feel like he earned the recognition and want to help him, like he helped you?

If you owned 50,000 acres and could hardly keep the bank from taking it due to the high cost of tractors, combines, bailers, seed, fertilizer, labor, taxes, a home, a car for Mom and the kids, a trip to Disneyland once or twice in your lifetime, a pickup truck, boat to take your son fishing, a ATV to fix fence with (so you can save a few bucks on gas for the pickup), buy a couple of new Angus bulls to try and up grade your calf production, at your bankers recommendation and then a couple of polite gentlemen show up at your house one afternoon and one of them tells you that he's seen a really big buck/bull out on your north forty and tells you the other fellow is a hunter from New Orleans and he will pay you $15,000 if you'll allow them to go hunt the buck/bull. And you look up and see your wife's eyes and you know she just got a call from the power company because your 3 month's past due on the sprinkler system electric pump bill. Are you going to tell your wife and the two guys standing on the rug in your door way, "I'm sorry and I appreciate your asking but, I just don't think it's the right thing to do, just doesn't seem like we should be getting into that sort of thing here. And Honey, those power company people can just go on down to the bank and take out a loan if they need the money, after all, that's what we have to do?

Is that what you're saying you would do? Is that what you expect from the business men and women anywhere in the world?

Here is reality. In the West, at one time, but not anymore, public lands offered large numbers of surplus big game, mostly mule deer, for most hunters antlers were secondary to any deer (buck/doe/fawn) for the locker (freezer). Ranchers had more big game on their properties than they wanted, and with abundant herds on public land, few sportsmen were willing to "pay to hunt" private property, if fact, some ranching operations begged hunters, down at the local bar and grill, to "come out to my place and shoot some of these dang deer". During Public Wildlife Big Game Board meeting came and threatened law suits if the managing agencies didn't remove more of the deer from their properties. (Worse than we now see from these folks at our meeting today, where they express concerns over current elk numbers.) In the west, mule deer were the primary object of pursuit, elk number were non-existent on most mountain ranges. Hundreds of thousands of permits were sold and a corresponding numbers of mule deer (antlered and antlerless) were harvested. As mule deer numbers began to decline (the decline was cause by many factors, certainly not just heavy hunter harvest), and decline they did, the dynamics of hunter demand shifted as well. As public lands carried fewer and fewer deer, hunter experience changed as well. Hunters felt crowded, even thought it was crowded before, with enough deer to go around, crowded conditions didn't rub sportsmen the way it did before hunter success started to suffer. A few years before most State Big Games Agencies started to limit the number of permits, hunters began to purchase fewer tags, on their own, out of hunter dissatisfaction. The first of the "limited hunting regulations" began in some States when "buck only, Statewide" became the standard. From ther it went to "choose your weapon" seasons, to spread hunter crowding" and on and on to where we are today.

That's the history.

Out of that history, came "pay for access", "fewer deer, therefore fewer large mature deer", "businesses based on locating the rare and limited mature animals", "more hunters are more interested in the beauty of the antlers than they are the pounds of protein", the magazines that promote and advertise the locations and business that "provide a less risky investment of time and money opportunity to harvest a mature animal, but at a corresponding price because the business has expenses to pay and Mom and kids to support too". Landowners changed, from begging hunters to get rid of surplus mule deer to first tolerating the few deer they had left, to eventually protecting and nurturing mule deer because they had gone from a liability to a very important asset. (This wasn't necessarily a contrived conspiracy, not to say that aggressive people didn't see opportunity in the changing environment and walked through doors that were open to them.) Limited game caused more hunters to offer to pay for private land access, bidding (offers) for the best access caused those that could pay the most to secure the most productive private lands. Businesses that put the highest bidders together with the most productive lands were born. In our country a man that is willing to risk his labor, income, family and future into buying a ranch and then working his butt off every day for 40 years to payoff the debt has a "right" to allow access to whom ever he choices, if, for whatever reason. At the same time public land is no longer considered by many hunter to be a desirable place to hunt and his ranch is. In America, he has the "right" to charge what ever he choices or allow access to whom ever he choices.

If an businessman/woman (outfitter) is willing to pre-invest in days and months of time and money into scouting public or private land and pre-buying landowner tags, then, after he's advertising his talents and successes, at what ever expense he choices, then it seems he should be allowed to offer his knowledge and expertise to whom ever and for what ever price he can garner.

Personally, I'm one that wishes we hadn't lost our abundant mule deer herds, I wish we had three times as many elk as we have, I wish public land had more than a few mature male big games animals, I wish people with large amounts of discretionary money would just donate their funds to wildlife conservation rather than to landowners and outfitters. However, that's not reality. The reality is, we have way fewer big game on public lands than we have demand for. Ranchers need money to stay in business, the same as Walmart, Safeway, and Neiman Marcus. If some hunters are willing to pay, business men will grow outfitter and guiding companies at considerable personal financial risk. People, for the time being are still willing to buy "big buck pictures" and read someone else's story, advertiser still fund those magazines so we'll know about the new crossbow, the new knife, scope, underpants etc. But.....it is what it is, out of natural consequence, our present condition.

We (as a group) keep buying the goods........................why would so many of us do that, if we didn't want too?

For the foreseeable future, we can do thing and that is to maximize the supportable big game numbers on public lands, so the supply comes more close to meeting the demand. If that doesn't or can't happen, for whatever reason, the present condition will continue to evolve, that is, as the resource becomes more scarce, the cost to participate will continue to increase and those that are willing and able to pay the most will purchase the best opportunities. And the more rare the mature animals become, the more the magazines will want to display them. And the more we'll want to see them, hoping one day, if we hunt hard and smart one might come home with us, so we can tell the story around our camp fire.

Diamonds are rare (for good reason or not), coal is abundant. The hype and the cost of each is in direct response to availability.

Free enterprise drives the world. In the world market, even the dictator lives by the consequences of supply and demand, "cuz you cain't squeeze blood from a turnip"!

DC
 
>manny,
>Open and read the post "1st
>Deer" by 300Win,
>just posted on this Forum.
>
>I see two really happy sportsmen,
>a father and son, thrilled
>with their deer and excited
>to share it and their
>experience with all of us.
>
>
>Where you ever like them?
>
>Has your satisfaction and exception changed
>over 35 years? When
>did you stop feeling like
>this young man?
>Do you think he hopes
>he can learn more, improve
>his skills, get more days
>afield as soon as he
>gets that drivers license so
>he can "hunt more", like
>you did when you started?
> Do you think he'll
>every say to his Dad,
>"last year was great but,
>lets find a bigger on
>this year"? Did you
>every think like that, before
>you developed your current point
>of view?
>
>You may be one that would
>answer "No", many others can't
>honestly say they're not just
>like 300Win and his son,
>thrilled with the harvest and
>the whole experience that went
>with it.
>
>If you had large amounts of
>discretionary money would you use
>some of it to hunt
>private land, or buy limited
>entry permits, or hire skilled
>guides who have spend a
>lot of time and money
>locating the best an area
>has to give, for you
>to stalk and shoot?
>If the guide asked you
>to publish the hunt in
>a magazine or online, so
>others could see the kind
>of game that guide could
>locat for his business clients,
>would you feel like he
>earned the recognition and want
>to help him, like he
>helped you?
>
>If you owned 50,000 acres and
>could hardly keep the bank
>from taking it due to
>the high cost of tractors,
>combines, bailers, seed, fertilizer, labor,
>taxes, a home, a car
>for Mom and the kids,
>a trip to Disneyland once
>or twice in your lifetime,
>a pickup truck, boat to
>take your son fishing, a
>ATV to fix fence with
>(so you can save a
>few bucks on gas for
>the pickup), buy a couple
>of new Angus bulls to
>try and up grade your
>calf production, at your bankers
>recommendation and then a couple
>of polite gentlemen show up
>at your house one afternoon
>and one of them tells
>you that he's seen a
>really big buck/bull out on
>your north forty and tells
>you the other fellow is
>a hunter from New Orleans
>and he will pay you
>$15,000 if you'll allow them
>to go hunt the buck/bull.
> And you look up
>and see your wife's eyes
>and you know she just
>got a call from the
>power company because your 3
>month's past due on the
>sprinkler system electric pump bill.
> Are you going to
>tell your wife and the
>two guys standing on the
>rug in your door way,
>"I'm sorry and I appreciate
>your asking but, I just
>don't think it's the right
>thing to do, just doesn't
>seem like we should be
>getting into that sort of
>thing here. And Honey,
>those power company people can
>just go on down to
>the bank and take out
>a loan if they need
>the money, after all, that's
>what we have to do?
>
>
>Is that what you're saying you
>would do? Is that
>what you expect from the
>business men and women anywhere
>in the world?
>
>Here is reality. In the
>West, at one time, but
>not anymore, public lands offered
>large numbers of surplus big
>game, mostly mule deer, for
>most hunters antlers were secondary
>to any deer (buck/doe/fawn) for
>the locker (freezer). Ranchers
>had more big game on
>their properties than they wanted,
>and with abundant herds on
>public land, few sportsmen were
>willing to "pay to hunt"
>private property, if fact, some
>ranching operations begged hunters, down
>at the local bar and
>grill, to "come out to
>my place and shoot some
>of these dang deer".
>During Public Wildlife Big Game
>Board meeting came and threatened
>law suits if the managing
>agencies didn't remove more of
>the deer from their properties.
>(Worse than we now see
>from these folks at our
>meeting today, where they express
>concerns over current elk numbers.)
> In the west, mule
>deer were the primary object
>of pursuit, elk number were
>non-existent on most mountain ranges.
> Hundreds of thousands of
>permits were sold and a
>corresponding numbers of mule deer
>(antlered and antlerless) were harvested.
>As mule deer numbers began
>to decline (the decline was
>cause by many factors, certainly
>not just heavy hunter harvest),
>and decline they did, the
>dynamics of hunter demand shifted
>as well. As public
>lands carried fewer and fewer
>deer, hunter experience changed as
>well. Hunters felt crowded,
>even thought it was crowded
>before, with enough deer to
>go around, crowded conditions didn't
>rub sportsmen the way it
>did before hunter success started
>to suffer. A few
>years before most State Big
>Games Agencies started to limit
>the number of permits, hunters
>began to purchase fewer tags,
>on their own, out of
>hunter dissatisfaction. The first
>of the "limited hunting regulations"
>began in some States when
>"buck only, Statewide" became the
>standard. From ther it
>went to "choose your weapon"
>seasons, to spread hunter crowding"
>and on and on to
>where we are today.
>
>That's the history.
>
>Out of that history, came "pay
>for access", "fewer deer, therefore
>fewer large mature deer", "businesses
>based on locating the rare
>and limited mature animals", "more
>hunters are more interested in
>the beauty of the antlers
>than they are the pounds
>of protein", the magazines that
>promote and advertise the locations
>and business that "provide a
>less risky investment of time
>and money opportunity to harvest
>a mature animal, but at
>a corresponding price because the
>business has expenses to pay
>and Mom and kids to
>support too". Landowners changed,
>from begging hunters to get
>rid of surplus mule deer
>to first tolerating the few
>deer they had left, to
>eventually protecting and nurturing mule
>deer because they had gone
>from a liability to a
>very important asset. (This
>wasn't necessarily a contrived conspiracy,
>not to say that aggressive
>people didn't see opportunity in
>the changing environment and walked
>through doors that were open
>to them.) Limited game
>caused more hunters to offer
>to pay for private land
>access, bidding (offers) for the
>best access caused those that
>could pay the most to
>secure the most productive private
>lands. Businesses that put
>the highest bidders together with
>the most productive lands were
>born. In our country
>a man that is willing
>to risk his labor, income,
>family and future into buying
>a ranch and then working
>his butt off every day
>for 40 years to payoff
>the debt has a "right"
>to allow access to whom
>ever he choices, if, for
>whatever reason. At the
>same time public land is
>no longer considered by many
>hunter to be a desirable
>place to hunt and
>his ranch is.
>In America, he has the
>"right" to charge what ever
>he choices or allow access
>to whom ever he choices.
>
>
>If an businessman/woman (outfitter) is willing
>to pre-invest in days and
>months of time and money
>into scouting public or private
>land and pre-buying landowner tags,
>then, after he's advertising his
>talents and successes, at what
>ever expense he choices, then
>it seems he should be
>allowed to offer his knowledge
>and expertise to whom ever
>and for what ever price
>he can garner.
>
>Personally, I'm one that wishes we
>hadn't lost our abundant mule
>deer herds, I wish we
>had three times as many
>elk as we have, I
>wish public land had more
>than a few mature male
>big games animals, I wish
>people with large amounts of
>discretionary money would just donate
>their funds to wildlife conservation
>rather than to landowners and
>outfitters. However, that's not
>reality. The reality is,
>we have way fewer big
>game on public lands than
>we have demand for.
>Ranchers need money to stay
>in business, the same as
>Walmart, Safeway, and Neiman Marcus.
> If some hunters are
>willing to pay, business men
>will grow outfitter and guiding
>companies at considerable personal financial
>risk. People, for the
>time being are still willing
>to buy "big buck pictures"
>and read someone else's story,
>advertiser still fund those magazines
>so we'll know about the
>new crossbow, the new knife,
>scope, underpants etc. But.....it
>is what it is, out
>of natural consequence, our present
>condition.
>
>We (as a group) keep buying
>the goods........................why would so many
>of us do that, if
>we didn't want too?
>
>For the foreseeable future, we can
>do thing and that is
>to maximize the supportable big
>game numbers on public lands,
>so the supply comes more
>close to meeting the demand.
> If that doesn't or
>can't happen, for whatever reason,
>the present condition will continue
>to evolve, that is, as
>the resource becomes more scarce,
>the cost to participate will
>continue to increase and those
>that are willing and able
>to pay the most will
>purchase the best opportunities.
>And the more rare the
>mature animals become, the more
>the magazines will want to
>display them. And the
>more we'll want to see
>them, hoping one day, if
>we hunt hard and smart
>one might come home with
>us, so we can tell
>the story around our camp
>fire.
>
>Diamonds are rare (for good reason
>or not), coal is abundant.
> The hype and the
>cost of each is in
>direct response to availability.
>
>Free enterprise drives the world.
>In the world market, even
>the dictator lives by the
>consequences of supply and demand,
> "cuz you cain't squeeze
>blood from a turnip"!
>
>DC


no i didn't read all the dribble but my boys are men now n ya we had fun during their youth, as i said they're men now so what opportunity do they have of even seeing a monster buck, my point is this mister politician, i never thought i would live long enough to see hunting ruined, but i was wrong, too late...
 
I agree with Gazelle, I only click on and read about DIY public land hunts. I think we have gotten so far away from what hunting was and should be. I even see it in my kids eyes, They feel that you can only get huge bucks if you have the money to pay for a ranch or a guided trophy hunt.

I have hunted every year of my life and if we ever got a big animal it was just a bonus and luck.
I stopped buying eastmans and trophy hunter and muley crazy because I felt like I was just making someone else rich. I would rather spend my time and money finding my own honey holes and teaching my sons its about the memories that are made and thats all its really about.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-03-13 AT 09:39AM (MST)[p]The excitement is still there for me and the biggest mule deer I've ever killed is right at 170. To me he was a trophy because I stalked within 10 yards to shoot the deer. I generally like to try to kill the biggest mature deer available in where I'm hunting. If you have time an access you will kill bigger deer than me that's fine I just don't compare, I have no need to. I have been chasing a 160-170 buck since Sept. 15th I see him often but no shot opportunity yet. If I get him I will be in my opinion be as pleased as someone who shoots a megabuck, if I don't I will have had several failed stalks an a education by this deer.

I'm 55 a trophy buck is different things to different people to me it was the first buck just a 20" wide 4x4 a kid I took out killed last year. I chose it as my screen saver because to me it's a trophy. If you buy into advertising, magazine and hunting show hype that you have to kill a 200" deer to be successful most people will be disappointed. Hunting isn't ruined unless you let it be it's just different than it was. "Evolve adapt or die."
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-03-13 AT 01:33PM (MST)[p]manny, just because you think when your personal opinion has been expressed, "nuf said..." is final and therefore some sort of official statement of reality.

I took the time to express my dribble because you opened the discussion. There are reasons conditions in the hunting world are the way they are currently. I was reasonably certain you wouldn't care enough to read my rational (or lack there of) but there are a lot of sportsmen that read these discussions and it's important to me that they know how we got to where we are today and what can be done to change it, so the good mule deer hunting opportunities are not just available to the those with the most discretionary money, which is what I think all of us would like, apparently, you as well.

If we create conditions were there are more mule deer, we can all hunt and harvest more antlerless deer, more young bucks, and more old bucks. Lets focus on the real reasons for the problems we have and create an environment that will allow it to happen.

Its been done before. Just because some folks (okay, a lot of folks) believe it can't be done does not necessarily make it so. It's truly an issue of priority and desire. How bad do we want it and what are we will to do to grow more mule deer on public lands?

DC
 
Don't ever try to combat emotions with factual information. Manny's mind is made up. "nuff n said"

I'm glad you think it's ruined. I'm 60 and still going strong. Some years I have to be happy with a cow or spike or even a small buck. Other years I have a real trophy year (by my standards) but the key is I'm always happy to be hunting something. Always!

I hope you find peace... maybe in golf!

Zeke
 
"It seems like it's more about the photo than the hunt." Brilliant statement, eel.

I think about the business of hunting and see how much $$ goes into pitching us each and every product we use. I don't buy much of anything anymore because I'm paying $15 for what the product is worth and the other $45 that it costs me pays for the advertising of the product. I've been wearing the same "sage open country" camo gear for 10 years now. It's really comfy and it's faded perfectly. :)

I think about the Moss' of the world...who spend 180 days in the field looking for huge game animals. Good for them...they like it. I'd miss my family...so I don't hold out for trophy animals. It's not that important to me. I don't scout big game much...I scout the area more than the game. To me, it's like deep sea fishing...you never know what you'll be bringing up. It's like a big game grab bag. If I'm surprised and find a 170ish buck within range, I'm the happiest guy around because I didn't know what to expect. That's how I like to hunt. Everyone else can do it their way...I'll stick to mine.

Manny has every right to post stuff like this without getting griped at. It's how he feels. At the same time, he knows he'll catch sh!t for it from some.

I'm heading out to WY with my son and my Dad in a week and a half. With the 3 point regulation on deer now, I may not even fill that tag. It's ok though because I expect that. I'm not going for the killing anymore. I'm going for the cold weather...for the opportunity to show my son what a sage grouse is....to show him the difference between the coyotes that we have at home and the huge, furry monsters they have in WY in the winter time. It's the time spent out...the time of year in a special place...with special people. I have about 10 more years of hunting with my Dad before he realistically has to hang his boots up. I'm going to enjoy every hunt we have out there.

Steve

M'Balz Es Hari
 
What the hell do you guys do that allows your to write a 12 page response? Holy moly that takes some serious thought and time!

"I'll see you all this coming fall in the Big Rock Candy Mountains!"

 
I like what wizzy said about camo.

I don't need camo to rifle hunt when im wearing bright a$$ orange. Camo just doesn't justify itself. For bowhunting I buy a cheap camo shirt at Wal-Mart and wear brown carhart pants. To this day a big game animal hasn't judged me for it.

I cant afford Expensive swaros. So I saved for A middle grade pair of Vortex and suits me just fine.

After hunting season I hit Wal-Mart and buy scent blocker for pretty much nothing.

IT just amazes me what products cost anymore.

I just won a .22 Savage Mark II. so I wanted an extra clip. $15 bucks for a clip and $15 for shipping from midway or cheaper than dirt. No thanks, I would rather support ebay with free shipping. Just nuts to charge someone $15 shipping for a 4oz part.



I will do what works for me and hunt d-I-y and pack the horses 17 miles in the backcountry for an elk. Its what I enjoy to do.

How ever you guys hunt I say good for you. Its your life and enjoy
 
A lot of interesting, well thought out comments here.

Now that I'm over 50 and reflect on my life in the outdoors, I get mixed emotions regarding this modern era of hunting.

I've always been just a working stiff and made my hunts happen through varying degrees of saving and sacrifice.
Hands down the most rewarding years of my life have been raising my son to be an outdoorsman and I am so thankful for the digital age, and quality compact cameras that allow me to save all of those special memories in vivid color.
Though others may only see a "Glory Shot" with a big buck or a big fish, those who participated in the adventure remember all of the blood, sweat and tears that led up to that glorious moment, burning muscles and aching backs are tough to capture in pixels.
The walls of my barn are filled with reminders of very special memories that otherwise would fade into oblivion, now they will last generations, so yes I do enjoy some of the modern technological gadgetry.

I pride myself on my years of success as a do it yourself hunter, my gear may be old, worn and obsolete but the memories in my head are priceless.
Yes, I've been on several big guided hunts and it is rather depressing to know that I simply can't afford to ever do that again and at times the cynic in me berates the guys that do all of their hunts with expensive outfitters whispering to my working man brain that "those guys just buy their animals" , but in reality I know that is just jealousy rearing it's ugly head for if I had the money I'd certainly be hunting sheep and other glamorous game in exotic destinations where guides are mandatory and I think most others here would too but they just can't be honest with themselves.
The rich guys have ALWAYS had the best stuff, the biggest houses, the nicest cars etc..that's just the way it is, and I blame no one but myself for not having the money it takes to play that game.

What gets depressing for me now is that I physically can't do what I used to.
I was always able to separate myself from the other hunters through sheer physical exertion, backpacking into country far from roads and other hunters, finding success and solitude miles from roads and trailheads when hunting public land.
With the popularity of quads and their unregulated trailblazing, that isn't much of a reality in many areas nowadays.

I find the great points race really depressing as well.
Seems collecting points has become a sport onto itself and it may take a lifetime of applying ($) to get one tag in those highly publicized trophy units. I like having Idaho and New Mexico as a luck of the draw option, old school style.

I know it's controversial, but I don't like trail cameras on public land.
When you go to a guzzler in Arizona or a tank in New Mexico and see up to a dozen cameras strapped to a fence post or a tree, it is like the Hatfields & McCoys fighting over who get the rights to that big buck or bull who's last and only defense was coming in under the cover of darkness.
The hundred yard bow shots, the 300 yd muzzleloader shots and the 1,000 yd rifle shooters are other layers of this modern world that have us oldsters scratching our heads as well.

Us old guys are trying to adjust to this new world of modern technology and some of us are having a tougher time than others I guess.
 
Hunter Harry wrote: [I know it's controversial, but I don't like trail cameras on public land.
When you go to a guzzler in Arizona or a tank in New Mexico and see up to a dozen cameras strapped to a fence post or a tree, it is like the Hatfields & McCoys fighting over who get the rights to that big buck or bull who's last and only defense was coming in under the cover of darkness.
The hundred yard bow shots, the 300 yd muzzleloader shots and the 1,000 yd rifle shooters are other layers of this modern world that have us oldsters scratching our heads as well.

Us old guys are trying to adjust to this new world of modern technology and some of us are having a tougher time than others I guess]

Add Utah to that list. Well spoken!! Last year we were to the Pauns during the regular rifle hunt and there were cameras on every waterhole. We found a couple of large buck, but the only trouble was that every guide service on the Pauns knew they were there and had them named. Talk about flies on a cow pie. Some were very nice, but one was bound and determined he was going to screw us up and only left after he saw me go over and write down his license plate number. My point being - there were guide services everywhere down there and the concentration of them was overwhelming, making a fun hunt a lot less desirable. I've been down there many years and it is always the same. That many guide services can be controlled, but they have the money and listening ear of those in charge. I'm just glad my kids have many other outside activities that come before hunting. We can still get out and hunt, but they don't get up tight about it like I do, but then again they didn't see hunting the way it used to be. Money, money, money is the name of the game today.
 
This year Denny Austad hunted the Pahvant with Doyle Moss. He ended up killing a 378 typical 6x6. A great bull by most standards. I'm not sure if any of you saw the pic, but it was pretty sad. The look on Denny's face is about the same look you would get from a seasoned hunter posing with a spike buck. To Denny, that was a "Meat bull", not even worthy of the wall.

Most of you would probably say "So What" or "How does this hurt me". Well, what if I told you there were two other guys (DIY) down there watching that bull that had drawn the tags with 16 & 18 points. They waited a combo of 34 years to draw the tags down there and had to compete with a group of 20 guides watching every bull from every peak on the mountain.

Now there is no law against guiding and I have no problem with it, but it's getting to the point where the average Joe has no chance against the armies of peak freaks.

Does Denny really need to kill a 378 bull??? He has a room full of bulls over 400, not to mention the world record bull. Do you think maybe Denny/Mossback could have passed on that bull and let a guy that has waited his entire life to kill a bull elk get a shot at a trophy that would bring him to his knees?

I appreciate what guys like Denny do for conservation, but there are parts of these operations that kind of make me sick.
 
To be honest I feel sorry for those that actually do not know what it's like to earn an animal on there own.
Looking at the pictures and the trophy on the wall with no effort expended cannot compare to those that did and they will never know the same satisfaction.
This is probably why they continue to buy a trophy trying to find something that is missing or to garner attention for a brief time trying to fit in.
I am not talking about those that use a guide now and then. I see nothing wrong with that.

Most of us hunt for the experience and challenge while trying to fill our freezer with some excellent meat for our family as the ultimate bonus if we are succesful.
Sure a nice rack to look at would be great as well, but it is not the end of the world if we do not take a monster that measures up to others ideals of a "trophy".

Like most I also like the DIY articles more than any others and have participated in them myself.
The pictures and stories I have written were not sent in to crave attention or to brag.
When I send in a story I am trying to share my hunt with those that may like to hear an "Average Joe's" hunt that most of us can relate to while doing it the old fashioned way.
Another part of me thinks it's great that when I am gone from this world my kids and grandkids will have dad or grandpa's magazine article to look back at. They can add it to the scrap book along with my photo's and continue the tradition if they so chose.

Some of us care about our next generation of hunters and want them to have the same abilities to hunt as we did.
Others just care about doing whatever it takes for "them" at the cost of others opportunity now and in the future.
We all know where we stand.
Best,
Jerry
 
"Does Denny really need to kill a 378 bull???"


Nope. And neither do the two guys that drew tags with their years of points accumulated. This isn't about "NEED". And if you are thinking people "NEED" larger and larger antlers to fill some void in their lives then you are loosing touch with reality. DO I like big antlers? You bet. Hell, my business turns around big antlers. If there aren't big antlers when or where I go hunting I swill still love the game. ITS A HOBBY PEOPLE.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-04-13 AT 03:08PM (MST)[p]Have you every had ground shrinkage, and had your expression gave away your surprise/disappointment?

Unless sportsmen buy a high fence animal, they are buying an opportunity to hunt and harvest an animal, they are "not buying" an animal. Purchasing a better opportunity generally gets the buyer a better "chance" at his idea of success. The same with the lumber business, the better the timber stand, the more it will cost the buyer, who takes a "chance" that he'll do better if he buys a better stand.

Now regarding rich hunters/killers or what ever we call them, who is richer?

One hunter buys a pasture, two horses, two mules, a barn, three saddles, (one for riding, two for packing), a four horse trail, a wall tent, hay for winter feed, grain for endurance, vet bills ,horse shoes (he puts them on by himself to save a buck, I'm a dollar) insures everything, scouts for three weekends and then takes two weeks off work to hunt the entire season, by himself in a Wilderness Area, miles and miles from the nearest road. Assets of considerable value accord to my thinking. And the kid us them for family pleasure as well as the wife.

Another hunter buys a 4 wheeler, a rack to load it in his pick up, a 18 foot travel, builds a garage to store it in, upgrades his pick to pull it all, scouts and hunts the same season as hunter one. Hunts with his son, who rides behind him and hikes from the ATV trail into an alpine basin 2 miles from the wheeler every morning. Again assets of considerable value, and all can be used for more than just hunting.


A third hunter, doesn't scout or hunt the entire season but pays another hunter/business person to scout, put him up in the business tent/trailer/lodge/motel, ride his horses, pack his mules, and hunts for 5 days, so he can get back to work at the butcher shop (no offense intended HH, just using a regular job as an example) so he can earn enough money to go again next year. At the end of the hunt, you go home with your game, that's it.........he paid his money and he got his opportunity. That's it. No assets left over to be used again and again.

So again..............who is the rich hunter?

Which one of these guys/ladies is it we're all so tired of killing our animal and/or seeing and reading about?

Are you tired of the guy that can take two weeks off?
Are you tired of the guy that owns a horse?
Are you tired of the guy that owns a trailer?
Are you tired of the guy that has the time to get in shape"
Are you tired of the guy that is a risk taker?
Are you tired of the guy who has more money than time?
Are you tired of the guy that has money and no assets or the guy who has the assets and money?
Are you tired of the guy that owns no camo but if he's going to buy some he doesn't go down to the Thrift Store so he buys the new and supposedly improved stuff?
Are you tired of the guy that likes to see big animal pictures and he buys those dam Big Buck Magazines?
Are you tired of the guy that owns a garage for this ATV?
Are you tired of the guy who owns a pick up?
Are you tired of the guy who...............gets lucky and kills a monster on his first ever drive through the timber, what a goober?
Are you tired of everyone that does things differently than you?
Are you just tired of everyone and want what you want, when ever you want it?

If you can afford a gun, a heavy jacket, hiking boots, a vehicle, have a job that allows you a vacation (paid or not), are you richER than someone. To many in our country that don't have the extra money to buy a hunting license much less your ten year old camo jacket and your 20 year old 3x9 redfield, are you an egotistical spoiled rich sportsman?

DC
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-04-13 AT 04:55PM (MST)[p]I think he is the guy that bought that (public) island park in Utah as his new private "me" first hunting grounds.
If you see choppers, game and fish employees heading the opposite direction or staring at the ground and 20 or more guys standing around dead livestock chances are it could be him.
 
From Post #32

"This year Denny Austad hunted the Pahvant with Doyle Moss. He ended up killing a 378 typical 6x6. A great bull by most standards. I'm not sure if any of you saw the pic, but it was pretty sad. The look on Denny's face is about the same look you would get from a seasoned hunter posing with a spike buck. To Denny, that was a "Meat bull", not even worthy of the wall."

So lets explore the assessment of Mr. Austed's expressions, one face is when he took the world record, so called Spyder bull, compared to the expression on his face when he kill the 378 typical.

Apparently, one is the look of a man with his meat bull and the other is the same man with the largest free ranging bull on record.

You decide if the assessment is valid.

6943whoshappy.jpg


DC
 
>Mr. theKnack, do you find it
>difficult to hate someone you
>don't know?


Tri- I do not approve of Obama either because of his proven actions or lack there of. They speak louder than words.
You can worship Obama or whoever you so desire it is your right just as it is mine to disagree.

I have said my thoughts on the matter but I am sure this will be another 100 post thread with muddy water clouding the facts as usual.
Converse with yourself now since I have said my piece.
 
Where is the picture of this 378 bull?? If I shot a bull like that my smile would be bigger than the frame of the picture
 
I tired but Otter Creek was lousy on Tuesday and Fish Creek was worse on Thursday and Deep Lake ain't all that deep right now. So.......what else you got to offer, Pa?

DC
 
Speaking of muddy water, what the hell does Obamy have to do with this thread??????? Is there a link from Denny Austed to Obama anywhere? Have they ever met? Do you know them both? Can you answer a simple question? DO you find it easy to hate someone you don't know?

It seems to me you hate someone right now because he purchases auctioned tags and then shoots great trophies and that's all you know about him? Sounds a little childish.
 
Lumpy, Ya can't fish Fish Creek until evening, better yet Beaver Pond is hotter and Deep Lake is getting pretty full. Otter Creek is a sage brush moss hole, so if you want to see some pretty country and have good fishing you got to be willing to stand in the snow and fish with a hunk of feathers.

Oh! I'm sorry I forgot, you've moved to the dark side and have to hire a guide when you go hunting and fishing. I remember when you liked to poor boy it just like me.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-13 AT 10:28AM (MST)[p]"They" told me Beaver Pond winter killed, went right past it, twice. I've never minded fishing in the snow and feather fishing is the best! And don't be misrepresenting me again, I said, "I wish people would donate to conservation" rather than hire expensive business men (guide) but, tried to explain how and why people do what they do in today's hunting environment but few know or care to know how we got here, fewer care how it can be reversed, and even fewer care to invest any long term time or money into the solution.

So.......you know, I stopped buying mule deer general season permits (goes against my personal principals to kill mule deer on general season hunts as long as their numbers are so low, but don't fault others who do, been know to help a few get it done, I won't kill any more spike bulls case they might grow into big bulls that someone would enjoy hunting, I killed my antelope, I have a cow tag but I haven't decided if I want to fill it yet, Otter Creek is still a sage brush moss hole for another few weeks, I finished the last good book I own, I can't afford to buy a landowner tag and I don't need a guide, so what else do I have to do right now but educate the folks?

You getting out much?

P.S. I've got to run my wall tent up to Cody in Bountiful today, you interested in a road trip?

DC
 
LB, your silence is deafening.........

Alright then, you contrary old son of a...............stay home! I hope your wife curdles your afternoon nap milk.

DC
 
I've been having a blast fishing for various rock fish in the salt water in my new kayak. Does that count?:) Sorry, no trophy photos.:)

I have nothing against trophy hunting, DIY, or otherwise. I just have an uneasy feeling about the person who does it for the main reason of "look at me".

I have a friend who morfs into a mountain lion come deer season. He kills monster bucks almost every year. He gets offended if you even ask to take his photo. I think he does it for personal satisfaction and because the big bucks have more meat. I admire him. I admire his skill and sacrifice.

Eel
 
Lumpy, I just read your last post. We all don't sit on MM waiting for your next post. Do you know how to dial a phone -- guess not. I called you - - guess what - no answer.

Sometimes I think you skipped a cog, alway straddle the fence, or something like that. The only people who know where they sit is the DWR on the mule deer subject. The rest of us just wonder what your next epistle is going to be.

PS There have never been more fish in the Beaver Pond by Fishcreek. You can't go by it in the middle of a sunny day and expect to see fish raise.
 
Manny,
I must ask, what were hunting mags like when you were young? Hmmm, I don't recall many average joes in Outdoor Life or Peterson's. How many rich dudes graced the covers again and again? Or did you think guys like Jack O'Conner and Fred Bear were just average joes? and because I have been on this board a long time I have seen you fascination for the topic of the Legendary Kirt Darner. How many magazine covers did he grace back in the day? Too me, this post is just you posting up the same ol' stuff that you've posted for years. If hunting sucks so bad, then why do it any more? If you want to see a bunch of regular joes that get it done year after year, then look no further than this place. Tons of guys here that are able to still kill giants year in and year out as regular joes. Names like Saskman, LuckyShot, BOHNTR, come to mind. I know this place has a lot more than just those three. And guess what, many of these regular joes grace the pages of the same mags as the big names.
 
As I stated before im sick of magazines that have the same articles like top ten bows, top ten guns, how to kill a monster buck in 5 or less days and so on. Once in awhile I stop in the magazine isle and browse magazines and the latest one had more products and ads then it did about hunting.

So as I said before I don't get any magazines other NRA since I'm a lifetime member. I even ended my Diesel Magazines cause they were a constant repeat also.

So with this being said has anyone here read a good magazine lately???????????? Or know of anything worth while.
 
Would Monstermuleys be a better site without photos?

Should everyone get a trophy like today's little league?

Are meat hunters more noble that trophy hunters?

Is guided hunting really hunting?

Is a private land Booner as prestigious as a public land forked horn?

If a guy won the lottery and decided to hunt the best places on Earth for trophy game is he an a- hole?

These are the questions running through my head after reading this thread after a couple shots of Crown on a Saturday night.....


:D
 
most of you guys under 40 don't have a clue . I don't mean that in a mean way, I say it in a sad way,,,,
 
Yes and unlike the pheasants with the clean farming and such, it does not need to be. As far as I'm concerned some mis-management here and there and now you have you a bunch of young people in the DWR who think it's the norm. Mind you, I'm talking deer only. Their success in other areas has been great.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-13 AT 01:24PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-13 AT 01:23?PM (MST)

I agree with Manny 53 on this, and I can sure relate to Hunter Harrys first post.
I have made lots of good memories from this sport , but I feel for the regular young adventuresome kids, they have lost some things that are irreplaceable.
 
>This year Denny Austad hunted the
>Pahvant with Doyle Moss. He
>ended up killing a 378
>typical 6x6. A great bull
>by most standards. I'm not
>sure if any of you
>saw the pic, but it
>was pretty sad. The look
>on Denny's face is about
>the same look you would
>get from a seasoned hunter
>posing with a spike buck.
>To Denny, that was a
>"Meat bull", not even worthy
>of the wall.
>
>Most of you would probably say
>"So What" or "How does
>this hurt me". Well, what
>if I told you there
>were two other guys (DIY)
>down there watching that bull
>that had drawn the tags
>with 16 & 18 points.
>They waited a combo of
>34 years to draw the
>tags down there and had
>to compete with a group
>of 20 guides watching every
>bull from every peak on
>the mountain.
>
>Now there is no law against
>guiding and I have no
>problem with it, but it's
>getting to the point where
>the average Joe has no
>chance against the armies of
>peak freaks.
>
>Does Denny really need to kill
>a 378 bull??? He has
>a room full of bulls
>over 400, not to mention
>the world record bull. Do
>you think maybe Denny/Mossback could
>have passed on that bull
>and let a guy that
>has waited his entire life
>to kill a bull elk
>get a shot at a
>trophy that would bring him
>to his knees?
>
>I appreciate what guys like Denny
>do for conservation, but there
>are parts of these operations
>that kind of make me
>sick.


Thanx HJB u've mads my point...
 
>LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-13
>AT 01:24?PM (MST)

>
>LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-13
>AT 01:23?PM (MST)

>
>I agree with Manny 53 on
>this, and I can sure
>relate to Hunter Harrys first
>post.
>I have made lots of good
>memories from this sport ,
>but I feel for the
>regular young adventuresome kids, they
>have lost some things that
>are irreplaceable.


yep..... i spent most of my time in the woods from the age of 12 lived in the boonies and loved it, today there is no boonies, when i was bored i went fishing n swimminging in the summer in the fall walk out my back door n hunt quail ducks deer...not n that order of course...

hey BC try to get rid of your prdegudice for me beore you reply on this topic you've added nothing to this dicussion...
 
I think BC is a kid who lives in British Columbia Canada, he has no real idea of what goes on here in the western US.
If we were young and lived there, things would seem different.
I bet if he travels and when he matures,
he will understand.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-13 AT 07:31PM (MST)[p]In this thread all I see is manny bitching yet again longing for the good ol days that are no more in his neck of the woods. I do indeed live in a much different place. I hunt every year with OTC tags in general seasons on public land and I have been fortunate to have killed more than a few 'monster Muleys'. I have learned much from my southern brothers and fight the 'trophy' mindset every chance I get up here. I don't want my hunting heritage lost like many of you have lost. A few years ago the GOABC was pushing hard to get many areas on Limited Entry. By doing that, the average joe would loose and the outfitters would gain. I personally fought against that push. Every year there are a bunch of vocal wannabes that ##### and moan that they did't see a big buck in hunting season, so therefore they must all be dead. They push to get tighter hunting restrictions because gawd forbid some spikes and forkeys were killed by meat hunters. There is this belief that trophy hunters are better than everyone else and everyone should stop hunting to cater to these wannabes needs. I personally fight against that. I hunt a Region that has the most liberal mule deer seasons on the planet and it grows absolute giants. If me and my buddies can kill monsters every year, why can't the wannabes and the outfitters? Simple answer is they think monsters should live behind every tree and trophy hunting should be easy. Simple fact is, no matter how you change seasons and restrict hunters, theses hunters will still not kill anything big because they are Lazy! You can be a wannabe or you can be the real deal. It is up to you. ##### and moan on the Internet or actually go out and hunt.
 
Apples and oranges but whining on the Internet is still whining on the Internet is it not? Manny is a MM Lendendary whiner. I've been here a long time and seen many of his rants over the years. it often seems like the guy hates hunting so makes me wonder why he does it.
 
Hunting is what you make it out to be. So why fuss over what others think.

Enjoy the moment of your hunt and you will be a better and happier hunter for it!

Eldorado
 
I get to hunt with my father and son this year, my son's college wrestling coach is letting him miss one day of practice to hunt this year. I haven't been able to hunt with him for 4 years. My dad turns 74 this year, he is starting to slow down, still keeps up better than most of my hunting buddies but not many years left.

That is what hunting is to me.
 
Manny, I couldn't agree with you more. You said it better than I could have.
and Bullskin im with you as well, I love reading the stories about the ppl who don't have the $$$$$$ of dollars to buy a tag each year but stay the course of pursuing their dream of drawing and hopefully tagging out on their dream hunt. nothing more exciting and special as that.
 
>most of you guys under 40
>don't have a clue .
>I don't mean that
>in a mean way, I
>say it in a sad
>way,,,,



I am curious what you mean by this? Could you elaborate?

I feel like I need to defend myself, and the other "under 40" crowd that I hunt with. I hope that "MOST" of us have a clue, not the other way around. I wouldn't classify any of the guys I hunt with as "not having a clue".
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-08-13 AT 08:39PM (MST)[p]packerfan-josh' I bet what he means is that the younger generation doesn't have a chance to see much in the way of really good quality mule deer hunting,
not just numbers or size of deer , but the whole experience.

There is no use arguing about it or defending the modern way, its just the way it is.

Look at any of the different western states record books to see a sample of what was out there, and then realize hunters didn't watch bucks for months,
put cameras everywhere, have 1000 yard rifles, $5000 rangefinders and spotting scopes or hire
big groups of guides and spotters to help make the kill.

There is an older taxidermist I enjoy visiting, lots of his bucks are just amazing, of course the best times were in the 50s and 60s, but now that I look back I realize that the 80s were pretty good also.

If I would have only known how things went down, I could have hunted more and harder back then.
 
Ok. Thanks for clarifying. That makes sense. I took it as meaning something else at first. I couldn't tell if that is what he was referring to, or something else. In this case, I agree, that part is sad.
 
I agree with a lot of what BCBOY said. In general, it takes a phenomenal effort to take a phenomenal animal. This should never be argued. That being said, I once knew this white boy that was allowed to hunt one of the TOP indian reservations, year in and year out. He bragged about his hunting prowess and his unique ability to harvest trophies each year. Well, I watched a video of his and just had to laugh and laugh and laugh. I guess what I'm saying is, lazy is a relative term just as much as being a great hunter is a relative term.

I hunt DIY PL, each year I am fortunate enough to pull a tag. I scout my ass off, I train as if I'm training for football season. I study on how best to hydrate and recover so that each day I can perform on the field. I get into top physical shape to allow my decision making in the field to not be swayed by my inherent lazy and discomfort. Now, fat stacks of loot could replace everything i listed above and I too could have a trophy on my wall. The problem is, I would have missed it all. I take great joy in scouting, training, and hunting "All Pro". Everything I do to prepare brings me great personal satisfaction.

I took no trophy this year. I had my chances and squandered them. I ate my tag but i learned much about myself and my prey. I go through my days, post hunt, haunted by what could have been but with pure satisfaction of what was and how I performed. No outfitter will ever take that from me. That is mine. I earned it.

The critters are out there. Do your homework. Study your @$$ off. Learn the draw odds of specific units and begin understanding the game in those units, for when the time comes to apply, you will be prepared. Never EVER be above learning and advice. Take it humbly. I have a good friend that i met on the field 10 or so years ago. He has taught me so much when I thought I knew it all. I pay attention to him the way "hollywood" hunters pay attention to Chuck Adams or Doyle Moss.

Best of luck to all and don't forget to enjoy the journey.
 
For the most part, i agree with Manny. That said, I don't have to like the way that hunting has become but there is little that i personally can do about it. In my 50 years of hunting afield, i've yet to pay $.10 cents to hunt bucks other than license and tags, surely have not contributed to the widespread public hunting's demise.

If though, i suddenly were to become a man of copious surplus funds, i too would now pay to play on the best grounds available. So, i have a hard time blaming those with the coin for what is now beyond my means.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-11-13 AT 11:21AM (MST)[p]I understand the frustration...BUT it is unlikely to get better, and is more likely to get worse long-term. As mule deer habitat and winter range continues to inevitably decrease with ever increasing human populations, the humble hunter of limited means must evolve with the animal and situation.

Personally, I am impressed with archery hunter(s) I know that have consistently overcome the odds and harvested large bucks in public DIY situations with very limited funds. One person in particular that sets the example of how we can rise to the challenge is author-hunter-photographer Nathan Allred (disclaimer: relative of mine). He has proven to me that even in heavily pressured areas, big bucks still live, but have simply evolved to elude our traditional hunting habits. And he has killed some real pigs lately, and with very limited funds (probably spends less on hunting and equipment than anyone, one of his mottos is 'fear the gear').

Bottom line: if making more money is out of reach, then evolve your hunting skills and knowledge.
 
the internet and outfitters are pretty much ruining hunting!

but....it's the world we live and can't go back to the past. pretty much accept the fact that our kids are not going to experience hunting the way we did. they're going to have to save their money and pay to hunt quality areas. kinda sounds like europe doesn't it?
 
Its' interesting how there seems to be arguments supporting both opinions of this issue. I for one am a Californian that has been hunting out of state, mostly Utah, having made my first trip to Utah when I was 18. I'm 61 now. All my hunts to date have DIY on public land. Harvested some decent bucks and some small bucks for meat to take home. However, after 18 years, I've finally drawn a premium limited entry rifle hunt tag and because I'm unable to travel the distance to scout, I've hired a guide who knows something about the country I'll be hunting. Given my circumstances, I sure don't consider myself as one the so called 'elitist' hunters. I've saved up my $$ for many years in anticipation that I'd draw this tag. I turned down a number of outfitters who were going to put up trail cams and put people "on the bucks" till I walked up and shot it. Not my cup of tea.

I'll continue w/forum not only because I find these kind of discussions interesting/enlightening, but I love reading and seeing the success of all you hunters out there.

Don't dwell on the few just enjoy your own hunting experience to the fullest!!!!
 
I went to the RAC years ago when the northern goose zone was created here in Utah. The DWR wanted to extend the goose season later into Jan, hoping to kill more geese and cut down the urban population. It was a pretty simple, straightforward attempt to use hunting/hunters to rectify the problem of urban geese. By international law the only way to extend longer was to not hunt earlier. The DWR had a great idea, put a two week closure on goose hunting during the general deer hunt, the thinking being that a majority of goose hunters would be hunting deer. There wasn't ONE hunter who disagreed. HOWEVER the "clubs" in northern utah threw a fit. The million dollar club in particular spent the better part of an hour freaking out. It boiled down to this, they would loose two weeks of warm, open water hunting, which they had broken down to revenue per day. Seems their "superior" goose hunters didn't like hunting geese in Jan, too cold. NOT ONE OF THEM cared about urban goose problems, DWR issues, health of the enviroment, geese, etc. Long story short, we have a northern goose zone to satisfy not the thousands of northern hunters, but the couple of clubs.
Northern Utah is a CWMU. In the rest of the state that cancer is slowly crawling. We opened Antelope Island for $FW.
You can no longer simply say I enjoy hunting so what "those people" do doesn't affect me. IT DOES. What do you think $FW is? It is a lobbying group for the deep pockets. They and their ilk are full time money/influence pushers on capitol hill. How do you think AI was opened DISPITE a majority against doing so?
Yes, I went elk hunting this week, I enjoyed every bit of it, and not once did I think about Denny or his type and how they are destroying what they claim to be saving. BUT that doesn't mean that it isn't happening or that we shouldn't be worried about it.
I grew up in construction. I knew a lot of the old timers, true craftsmen, did things with wood, plaster, masonry, etc that were just beauty. But those things took time to do, time to master, etc. Along came the "industry" builders. There wasn't time to do it right, or to do it correct, the industry cared only about more, more, more, thusly the craftsmen were replaced by our friends from the south, corners were cut, crap was pushed, codes were changed, etc, because the industry didn't care about the overall good, it cared about how much it could make today. The same is true of the hunting industry. It cares only about that next "client", that next trophy score. Thusly where we are today, where in Utah you and I wait for 10-20 years to hunt "trophy" animals, while guys like Denny hunt every year, with special season dates(CWMU get 4 months), or even private islands(AI is closed for Dennys hunt). It does affect you, and whats worse, its really gonna affect the next generation. The industry that has come in the last 10-15 years isn't about conservation, its about blood and money, which is why hunting is a dying sport. You cannot keep kids interested on a promise of "someday you will draw". You can't keep cutting tags, locking up land, pricing everything hunting out of reach, and hope to grow your sport. IT DOES AFFECT YOU!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
First of all, where is the Fish representation in "Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife"? Although this organization does like to preserve wildlife, they are more for the Private land owners and individuals with big money than they are for public sportsman. Utah used to have a fishing law indicating it was legal to fish below the high water mark in any stream. Governor Herbert along with others including SFW decided it was better to keep public water private and the Gov vetoed this law. It should be known that the Gov has many friends and family who influenced this law because of thier private land. Sportsman for F/W believed it would allow duck hunters access to more water that was formally privatized. How do I know this? One of my close friends is on the blue ribbon trout committee for the state of Utah and he explained it to me.
 
If your paying attention to your own hunts, and not trying to compare yourself to others and their hunts, everything usually works out real nice. It's when you start to concern yourself with others hunts , that's when all the jealousy comes out and the negativity flows like water.
 
>If your paying attention to your
>own hunts, and not trying
>to compare yourself to others
>and their hunts, everything usually
>works out real nice. It's
>when you start to concern
>yourself with others hunts ,
>that's when all the jealousy
>comes out and the negativity
>flows like water.

Well said.
 

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