Elk numbers pitiful?

O

Oneye

Active Member
Messages
443
So, I commend the DWR and almost all of what they do given the situation they are put in. However, I don't know if I'm just bad at finding elk at this point or if I have a legitimate gripe.

I frequently go on Monroe and Fishlake. I go on the Dutton and Beaver now and then. To me elk numbers have become pitiful especially on Monroe, Dutton, and Fishlake. I realize this is due to pressures from livestock guys in the last few years and a ton of anterless tags as a result. Still population estimates are reasonable on all 3 of those units. I believe the Dutton is still estimated at over 1,800, Monroe is estimated at around 1,000 and Fishlake at 4,000+. I have to say if the elk are there I'm not seeing them, I'm wondering is anyone really? I've been out looking at deer the last couple weeks hard for bucks and have been okay with the amount of deer I've seen, but I've looked high and low and seen some elk but not even a fraction of what I have always seen. It seems anterless elk tags are a bit out of control across the whole state to appease livestock guys.

I'm mainly just wondering, kind of for the areas I've mentioned or even other areas around the state anyone wants to discuss. Are you seeing the elk? Am I just blind? Or are elk numbers way down on these units and other areas around the state? I'm still seeing some elk but not hardly what I usually have seen. And Fishlake, Dutton, Beaver, and Boulder are still being hammered with anterless tags. Just wondering what other people?s thoughts and what you're feeling on what you're seeing on elk numbers?
 
You want to see pathetic look at the wasatch unit. And the rancher needs to be dealt a slice of humble pie. I've had enough of ranchers being the say of the elk herd. Especially when they graze for pennies on the dollar stealing elk feed on public land I hunt elk on. And then double dipping for depredation tags. You have a legit gripe the cattleman have gotten out of hand. I don't have a problem with a guy making a living on beef but it's gotten out of control.

"We don't have a gun problem we have prescription drug problem."
 
Hey One eye,
Why don't you send a letter to the RMEF and have them get involved? Maybe see if Hawkeye can get Randy Newberg involved. I'll bet those guys could do something the increase the elk numbers in Utah.
 
I agree with wstrntines whole heartedly and seen how great the wasatch was 12 years ago, pretty sad to see what it has became
 
Don't Worry Boys!

Anthro!

Fish Lake!

Wasatch!

They'll Start Destroying another F'N Unit Real Soon!









She Don't Just Rain She Pours!

That Girl Right There's The Perfect Storm!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
>Hey One eye,
>Why don't you send a letter
>to the RMEF and have
>them get involved? Maybe
>see if Hawkeye can get
>Randy Newberg involved. I'll
>bet those guys could do
>something the increase the elk
>numbers in Utah.


That entire post was completely uncalled for and at your age you should know that. You get pissed when anyone says anything negative about your precious SFW and then pull this kind of crap. Shame on you and I'll bet your Pop won't be happy if/when he reads your post that is simply trying to open old wounds!
 
And so it continues - per San Juan County emergency declaration
regarding drought conditions requesting that the State "...take ?appropriate and fair reductions? of big game on croplands" to reduce the impacts of big game. Depredation hunts (and more) on the way?
 
>Hey One eye,
>Why don't you send a letter
>to the RMEF and have
>them get involved? Maybe
>see if Hawkeye can get
>Randy Newberg involved. I'll
>bet those guys could do
>something the increase the elk
>numbers in Utah.


I won't take the thread off course, your bitterness and childish post speaks for itself.
 
Honestly Rocky Mountain hunter, if it's livestock owners or farmers asking for it yes. That's how so many anterless tags have been released on all the units I've mentioned. The Dutton, Monroe, Boulder, and Beaver have been getting pounded with anterless tags the last few years, and it sure shows now. I could go on Monroe every day and see plenty of elk. It's pretty tough to find very many now.
 
>Don't Worry Boys!
>
>Anthro!
>
>Fish Lake!
>
>Wasatch!
>
>They'll Start Destroying another F'N Unit
>Real Soon!


Been telling ya for 20+ years.

Keep stockpiling bulls and exterminating cows.

Biology 101.

Wonder what bull to cow ratio is?







"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
It's happening on most if not all units.

As elk ass pointed out, those are some of the more prominent ones. Fish lake had recovered, Anthro probably never will, and Wasatch they have decimated and now are keeping tags at a manageable level, so they herds never really grow or shrink.

You will see it on other units, it will become very cyclical on multiple units.
 
I mean are sportsmen ready to say more and let's cut back on these anterless tags? I agree with the bill:cow ratio thing listed above, I bet it's nearly running 1:1 in some areas. We?ve killed far too many cow elk in the last 5 years in this state and I hope it can be brought way back in and also avoid this overharvesting historian every time a few cattle guys say boo.
 
I agree with you the elk numbers are down. I saw very few elk out and about. But when heading over to the cwmu's I saw a few. A lot of little bulls killed on the trophy hunts. Well not even little. I saw people shooting rag horns with trophy tags. That trophy hunt during the spike hunt is a joke ! They are giving out to many tags on the Fish lake unit. I haven't counted how many big bull tags this year. When I get a minute, I wall added them up. But I am guessing its over 120 trophy bull tags.The area can't support those kind of numbers.
 
340+ bulls used to hit the dirt and be hauled down Heber main on a a daily basis 8-12 years ago. And on every hunt on the unit.

"We don't have a gun problem we have prescription drug problem."
 
These F'N Spike Hunts in LE Units are Total BullSshhiittt!









She Don't Just Rain She Pours!

That Girl Right There's The Perfect Storm!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
Anybody know How Much more Money you could get out of a Big Bull compared to a Spike?

Knockin the Genetics/Upper End Bulls out of any of the LE Units Thoroughly Pisses Me Off!









She Don't Just Rain She Pours!

That Girl Right There's The Perfect Storm!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
>These F'N Spike Hunts in LE
>Units are Total BullSshhiittt!
>

I don't really agree with that. The biggest issue is the killing far too many cows ar this point. If you want an elk herd that can produce more bulls you need a higher number of cows. I can agree that with less cows, we in turn have less bull calves being born, resulting in less bulls making it through the spike hunt because there's less to begin with but the bottom line is if you don't have cows giving birth to those bulls the results will be just what we see now. Lower elk numbers that take a longer time to recover.

Elk objectives are going to stay the same for the foreseeable future. We can manipulate what makes up that population objective. Let's take Monroe as an example that now has an objective of 1,000-1,400. Currently it is estimated at 1,000 animals. I feel like there may be more bulls than cows on this unit at this point. I can find bulls but cows are becoming much harder to come by. When we have 500 bulls and 500 cows you're not getting the recruitment of young bull calves into the population like you would with 700 cows and 500 bulls, it also takes a population with less cows a longer time to come back when all the cattlemen complain and a ##### load of anterless tags get issued. Less cows in the end equals less elk to hunt and lower lows when aggressive harvest does occur.

Monroe in the last 3 years has had around 2,000 anterless tags handed out, not to mention the depredation tags that were handed out like candy after all those tags pressured the elk onto private land. Monroe is not open to rifle spike hunting so it's a prime example. Sure there are bulls, but not as many as before all these cows began to get massacred. This year they laid off the cow tags and I believe there are only around 30 near Koosharem plus depredation tags whatever they end up being. The problem is, every unit around it is still being hit with a lot of anterless tags and the elk on these units go back and forth a lot. If just for a few years they could pull back on these cow tags omen every unit without the cow guys screaming bloody murder our elk herds could recover. Sadly I think the cow guys will continue to get the final say until sportsmen get fed up, which we should be at this point. I can't say the DWR is wrong on their estimates, but I sure don't see the elk on these units to justify all the anterless tags they give out.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-14-17 AT 09:08PM (MST)[p]LMAO!!! Seriously Oneeye if you are concerned about the elk herds why are you not looking for support from the RMEF? Wonder what your Monroe elk herd would look like if the Forest Service would have got their way. Too bad you don't have an organization that could present a united voice for sportsman concerned with the lack of elk in Utah due to the overbearing political influence of the grazers.

Top,
Again you're piping in on a subject that you have very limited knowledge of. How about you tell us about Utah elk herds, habitat, grazing issues, aspen restoration projects. Lets hear your solutions and insight.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-14-17 AT 09:38PM (MST)[p]>LAST EDITED ON Nov-14-17
>AT 09:08?PM (MST)
>
>LMAO!!! Seriously Oneeye if you are
>concerned about the elk herds
>why are you not looking
>for support from the RMEF?
> Wonder what your Monroe
>elk herd would look like
>if the Forest Service would
>have got their way.
>Too bad you don't have
>an organization that could present
>a united voice for sportsman
>concerned with the lack of
>elk in Utah due to
>the overbearing political influence of
>the grazers.
>
>Top,
>Again you're piping in on a
>subject that you have very
>limited knowledge of. How
>about you tell us about
>Utah elk herds, habitat, grazing
>issues, aspen restoration projects.
>Lets hear your solutions and
>insight.


I guess the elk numbers arent all that's pitiful
 
One eye,
You're right ace, it's not. But if you're a Johnny come lately that has spouted nothing but Internet theory and myth instead of actually knowledge of history and real situations then I won't feel bad about calling you out. I'm dead serious, you've been a loud mouth talking shiiit about some organizations and championing others. So have your champions step up Johnny.
 
?I'm dead serious, you've been a loud mouth talking shiiit about some organizations and championing others. So have your champions step up Johnny.?

Cause the ?Current Champion? didn't have anything to do with getting us where we are??

Proposed wealth tags for grazers was one idea floated.

When science catches up, and that sumbitch always does, in this case it's the principle of fecundity, we all pay the price.

You think it's bad with elk? Wait till we have another normal winter and this law hits deer.

But hey, guys got 20 bonus points, gotta have them bucks and bulls.



"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
SFW has been that organization for what, 15 years and the herds are in the shitter. Still

It would appear to many that maintaining the same course; welfare tags, expo money, etc, isn't achieving the stated goals. What happened to the "Serengeti in the SW" ?
 
All I hear is we are killing too many cow's,too many big bulls, too many spikes, we need to cut deer tags, can't have this hunt this time of the year or this hunt at this time of year, youth hunters are taking my permits, it is the Dedicated hunters falt, no it is the long range shooters falt, no the Dedicated hunters are interfering with the archery deer hunters, no the archery hunters have too much time to hunt, no archery deer hunters are interfering with the archery spike elk hunters, no the archery spike elk hunters are interfering with the archery big bull hunters.
I will give up my dedicated hunter permit,can't hunt that many days, my rifle, can't shoot long range, my bow can't interfer with big bull hunters my four wheel drive truck and four Wheeler can't drive into the mountains it will interfer with the back country hunters, not put my 16 year old boy in for any permits he might take some permit away from some 30 something year old man who is in titled to what ever he wants.
Oh I almost forgot all the 435ers can only camp on Evan days and 801ers can camp on odd days.
I suppose I am done hunting
 
>If culling the elk means deer
>numbers would go up, I
>would be all for it.
>


And what information has ever proved that to be true?
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-14-17 AT 11:38PM (MST)[p]>One eye,
>Feel free to chat on the
>open forum. No need
>to whine in a PM.
>


Nah
 
Hey ww!

"""But hey, guys got 20 bonus points, gotta have them bucks and bulls."""

You know that Ain't True!

20+ Points & Still No Tag!:D:D:D

And Oneye!

If You Don't Think all These F'N Spike Tags are Not Hurting LE Units You are Very Blind!



>
>?I'm dead serious, you've been a
>loud mouth talking shiiit about
>some organizations and championing others.
>So have your champions step
>up Johnny.?
>
>Cause the ?Current Champion? didn't have
>anything to do with getting
>us where we are??
>
>Proposed wealth tags for grazers was
>one idea floated.
>
>When science catches up, and that
>sumbitch always does, in this
>case it's the principle of
>fecundity, we all pay the
>price.
>
>You think it's bad with elk?
>Wait till we have another
>normal winter and this law
>hits deer.
>
>But hey, guys got 20 bonus
>points, gotta have them bucks
>and bulls.
>
>
>
>"If the DWR was just doing
>its job, and
>wildlife and hunting were the actual
>focus,
>none of this process would even
>matter.
>But that is not the focus
>or the goal in any
>
>of this. The current DWR regime,
>and
>SFW were born out of wildlife
>declines,
>and are currently operated and funded
>
>under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
>
>tags would not even be worth
>anything if
>the focus was where it was
>supposed to
>be, and wildlife and tags were
>plentiful.
>But under the current business model,
>
>that is how the money and
>power is
>generated. It is generated through the
>
>rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
>resource. A resource that is supposed
>to
>be being beneficially managed for the
>
>masses that own that resource, ie.
>US.
>The problem is obvious, hedging is
>not a
>long term sustainable strategy, and
>others have to lose, for some
>to win. In
>this case it is us, the
>many, and our
>resources, that are being forced to
>lose,
>because there is a minority who's
>power
>and money is derived from our
>loses."
>
>LONETREE 3/15/16










She Don't Just Rain She Pours!

That Girl Right There's The Perfect Storm!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
>Gordy,
>Lol, there is no current champion.
> That I believe!


C?mon man, ya can't trumpet SFW as the only group doing anything or capable of doing anything while at the same time saying there is no champion.







"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
Currently....yes pretty easily. Gordy you should know me well enough by now. The things I support come from small town mafias and sometimes gain support from SFW. Over the last 25 years yes I still believe they have overall done more. So like I told One eye, get your champions to step up. If they do, hats off credit given were credit is due. I personally don't care who the champion is if it puts more elk and deer on the mountain.
 
>LMAO!!! Seriously Oneeye if you are
>concerned about the elk herds
>why are you not looking
>for support from the RMEF?
> Wonder what your Monroe
>elk herd would look like
>if the Forest Service would
>have got their way.
>Too bad you don't have
>an organization that could present
>a united voice for sportsman
>concerned with the lack of
>elk in Utah due to
>the overbearing political influence of
>the grazers.
>
>Top,
>Again you're piping in on a
>subject that you have very
>limited knowledge of. How
>about you tell us about
>Utah elk herds, habitat, grazing
>issues, aspen restoration projects.
>Lets hear your solutions and
>insight.

I actually don't have any knowledge of the elk herds in Utah. What I do know is exactly what I stated and that is that your post made you look like a big ##### and it would seem that the response that Oneeye made in response to it was also spot on.
 
The fishlake cant support 120 LE bull tags... LOL. The unit has 4000+ elk and probably over 2000 bulls. And killing 120 will decimate it.. :)
 
Robi,
Was the SFW heavily involved in creating a plan to prevent the Forest Service from wiping out the Monroe elk herd? Don't jump into subjects that you know nothing about other than you dislike the SFW. You guys are caught up on one focus that's it. It blinds you to the realities.
 
Top,
So by all means pipe in and support One eye without any knowledge. That makes perfect sense. I'm not in the slightest surprised.
 
If only there was a sportsmen?s group in Utah with influence on the wildlife board and political ties in the capital then maybe the mass slaughter of Utah?s elk herd would stop. If only. :/
 
Puff,
No need for that. Why not reach out the Nationally recognized Elk organization. Surely they would be concerned about this. Certain they would want to support more elk and would go to battle against the cattlemen to put more elk on our public lands.
 
>Puff,
>No need for that. Why
>not reach out the Nationally
>recognized Elk organization. Surely
>they would be concerned about
>this. Certain they would
>want to support more elk
>and would go to battle
>against the cattlemen to put
>more elk on our public
>lands.

You need to take a break because all your posts are really a bunch of bull pucky. All you're doing is trying to stoke embers and get another fire going by your sarcastic remarks regarding RMEF, Hawkeye, etc. You get pissed when anyone says anything negative towards SFW and now are just piling it on after RMEF got raped in that decision by Utah to keep SFW in power. You know it, I know it, and everyone familiar with what happened knows it! Let it be like your Daddy would, as you're not doing anything positive for the family with these stupid posts of yours on this thread!
 
Top,
It's a valid question. Don't worry about my family ace. All is well on my home front. You guys crack me up.
 
73

I own property on Monroe mountain and spend some time up there. I may know a little more than you might think. All of my relatives live down there and have been involved. And they are not members of "THE SFW". Just because they are from Monroe, Annabella, Richfield, Torrry, Grover, Scipio, Josheph, Circleville and Junction doenst mean that they are for "THE SFW".
 
Like Puff said, with all the ties to the Wildlife board and so on, why does RMEF need to step in? WE HAVE A CHAMPION!! THE SFW!!!
 
>Top,
>It's a valid question. Don't
>worry about my family ace.
> All is well on
>my home front. You
>guys crack me up.


I'm sure your Daddy didn't teach you to be an ahole, but that's what you're being on this thread and you know damn well that your posts are only meant to cut down RMEF and Hawkeye, not to further the discussion, and nothing more!
 
So Robi, Tell me about the Aspen Project. Tell me who it was that pushed all of that though. I'm all ears bud, lets hear all about it.
 
Well BUD, I know someone who is in the government and worked for the Governors over the years and owns property next to mine who actually had a little say and push on that. IN FACT, we had it done on our 2 properties 2 years ago. She is a family member too. :)
 
>>Top,
>>It's a valid question. Don't
>>worry about my family ace.
>> All is well on
>>my home front. You
>>guys crack me up.
>
>
>I'm sure your Daddy didn't teach
>you to be an ahole,
>but that's what you're being
>on this thread and you
>know damn well that your
>posts are only meant to
>cut down RMEF and Hawkeye,
>not to further the discussion,
>and nothing more!

100 % truth right here!
 
Too bad SFW can't get it done. Maybe SFW needs more pimp money in order to make it happen.

It would've been cool to see what would have happened if the pimp money went to RMEF. We know 100% would have hit the ground vs. the current "champion" lining their pockets.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-15-17 AT 12:14PM (MST)[p]SFW has dominated wildlife management decisions in this state for the last 15 years. Want proof? Look no further than the makeup of the wildlife Board, RACs and the recent fiasco with the Expo contract. That being said, I recognize that SFW is not responsible for every wildlife problem that vwe face as sportsmen. However, SFW cannot take credit for every alleged wildlife success in the state, including mild winters, and then turn around and point fingers at other groups when their programs and efforts come up short.

Perhaps SFW and MDF can use a portion of the millions of dollars that they have made off of our Expo Tags to help fund a solution? The DWR has picked their champion and now we all have to live with the consequences. Besides, didn't Don Peay recently tell all of us that Utah is leading the way in wildlife managament and is the "Serengeti of North America." Watch the video:

All is well!

-Hawkeye-
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-15-17 AT 02:16PM (MST)[p]Lol, so let me get this straight. What you are all saying is that the answer to One eyes concerns is that he should try and get the SFW involved and they should champion this cause for the sportsman. Hmmm interesting.

Robi,
I am an ahole no doubt. But I'm ok with that. Those serving reality generally are. : )

Good talk guys, One eye good luck on your desire to have more elk on the mountain, I'd love to see it happen.
 
>Lol, so let me get this
>straight. What you are
>all saying is that the
>answer to One eyes concerns
>is that he should try
>and get the SFW involved
>and they should champion this
>cause for the sportsman.
>Hmmm interesting.
>
>Robi,
>I am an ahole no doubt.
> But I'm ok with
>that. Those serving reality
>generally are. : )
>
>
>Good talk guys, One eye good
>luck on your desire to
>have more elk on the
>mountain, I'd love to see
>it happen.

I hate to say it, but your reading comprehension sucks terribly, other than your ahole comment, if you think any member has asked for help from the SFW, LOL!
 
Top,
I'm pretty sure even you can see that. Helll even Hawkeye suggested it. You honestly need to get out of the echo chamber you live in.
 
Muley, You suggest that maybe we should engage RMEF to help with the current Elk situation that exists in Utah. Do you really think that RMEF would even want too? They have witnessed firsthand the politics involved with Wildlife Management here. They are smart enough to invest their time and effort in states and Game Agencies that are more willing to work in partnership with them to maximize their efforts. After the shaft Utah gave RMEF over the Expo contract they will look hard and long about getting involved with Utah DWR.
 
>Top,
>I'm pretty sure even you can
>see that. Helll even
>Hawkeye suggested it. You
>honestly need to get out
>of the echo chamber you
>live in.

If you can't figure out exactly what Hawkeye meant in that post of his you definitely lack reading comprehension! His post was essentially saying that SFW has been the boss for the last 15 years and if they spent some of that millions of dollars where it should be spent on stuff like this thread is discussing maybe something positive would be gained. You are absolutely delusional in your liking of the SFW when the top brass is making more money off the public for their own pockets than Carter makes liver pills. There is so much money being funneled every which way that even the state auditor shook his head and said it was all screwed up and yet it just keeps on keeping on. All you need to do is look at their tax returns to see how much money is going to everything (people) than where it should be (game management, etc.). Now I'm almost sure we'll hear from Birdman who will come on with his usual BS that none of us are in the know like he is and the SFW top guys are all as honest as Jesus Christ!
 
"Muley, You suggest that maybe we should engage RMEF to help with the current Elk situation that exists in Utah. Do you really think that RMEF would even want too? They have witnessed firsthand the politics involved with Wildlife Management here. They are smart enough to invest their time and effort in states and Game Agencies that are more willing to work in partnership with them to maximize their efforts. After the shaft Utah gave RMEF over the Expo contract they will look hard and long about getting involved with Utah DWR." Isn't that the truth!!
 
So you mean they are more concern about getting their feelings hurt than helping support the herds in Utah. Fair enough. So tell me this, what about their membership and supporters in Utah. They just get the shaft because the RMEF feels they go the shaft from another organization? Seems like they are more concerned about not getting their own way than helping herds that their membership would benefit from. Interesting theory and seems to fit the narrative of those hating the SFW and loving the RMEF.

One last thing, before the Expo deal why was RMEF unwilling to step in and be a voice for the sportsman when the Fishlake herd was slaughter or when the Forrest Service was pushing to wipe out the Monroe herd. What about the Wasatch slaughter?

One eye,
The RMEF is about habitat and that is it. If the state chooses to graze more cattle on that habitat they are indifferent. If they choose to add more elk they will claim a victory. It's a safe stance for an organization. Safe means not rocking the boat and not fighting battles.
 
Top,
Wow, that is crazy. It's almost like someone ought to get involved and prove all of this. Surely if an attorney got involved and really went after it they could make something stick with this corruption. Carry on gents!

One eye,
You're elk herd will state at lower rates as long as the cattlemen have a stronger voice and presence in the political arena than the sportsmen do. So again I'll say what I said to start. Better reach out to whatever organiztion or person can't help make that happen. Call me an ahole for saying it but it's the reality.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-15-17 AT 05:22PM (MST)[p]>Top,
>Wow, that is crazy. It's
>almost like someone ought to
>get involved and prove all
>of this. Surely if an
>attorney got involved and really
>went after it they could
>make something stick with this
>corruption. Carry on gents!
>
>
>One eye,
>You're elk herd will state at
>lower rates as long as
>the cattlemen have a stronger
>voice and presence in the
>political arena than the sportsmen
>do. So again I'll
>say what I said to
>start. Better reach out
>to whatever organiztion or person
>can't help make that happen.
> Call me an ahole
>for saying it but it's
>the reality.

What's crazy, other than you and others who can't see the forest for the trees and continue to sing the praises of SFW while they're bilking the public out of millions of dollars that isn't going where it's supposed to. Have you ever looked at their tax paperwork? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there is so much money going every which way, but where it should be, that even the state auditor said he couldn't tell where it was going it was so screwed up. Where is BGF, an SFW offshoot, getting all of it's operational money because it sure isn't getting it's millions from donations?! If it was going where it should be, you should be able to tell all of us all the projects they have done each year to total the millions they take in and balance the books! Man, you and Birdman wouldn't know reality if it bit you in the azz!
 
Weird, you should probably point that out to the athurories and fix it. Sounds like it would be easy to prove. I mean if it was that big of a mess I'll bet the state would put an end to it immediately.

You all take care, I'm headed to NM to chase the grey ghost.
 
Top gun,
we'll hear from Birdman who will come on with his usual BS that none of us are in the know like he is and the SFW top guys are all as honest as Jesus Christ!
Thanks for saying it for me top. It is comical to listen to you spout off on things you and many others have no idea about.
Hope you have a great thanksgiving.
 
Let's get back on topic I have spent a fare amount of time on the Fish lake unit I can say this past summer and fall i saw plenty of elk cows and bulls. On the muzzy hunt I saw at least one solid 340 plus bull on each of the first five days of the hunt couple of the bulls north of 350. I did not see anyone hunting elk in the canyons or draws I was hunting. Throughout The summer and early fall i could park on the paved road from Gooseberry to Fish lake multiple spots and spot cows and/or bulls and the one spot you could spot three different herds of elk one herd was 15 bulls not any of them large but all branch antler.
In my opinion the elk herds for the most part are very healthy you might not be able to draw a permit and with out much of a effort go out and kill a 340 plus bull like they did back in the mid 2000 but that is not the way it should be. It is not healthy to be carrying that many older age class bulls, older bulls do not make the best breeding bulls they have low semming counts and they like to fight more than make love and they require as much feed as 2 cows.
So if you do draw a permit for anyone of the south central utah units for next fall you can and will kill a 340 plus bull if you put some time and effort in scouting and willing to leave the road and that is what we call hunting.
I know more than one of you guys/gals have a different opinion than mine and that is alright if we all had the same opinion there would never be new ideas.
 
Fishlake is below objective and the objective is lower than it should be or could be. I saw elk this year too while up at the cabin and hunting the early hunt. I've hunted Fishlake for 30 plus years. It's definitely down on overall numbers. And the reason is without question due to the local cattlemen. So we can be content with what they decide is enough or we can push for more. Again it's a little tough without a united voice.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-16-17 AT 08:36AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-16-17 AT 08:33?AM (MST)

The Southern RAC sent a proposal to the Wildlife Board to include antlerless elk in all muzzy elk hunts like we do with archery and 2 of the Board members were there (Donnie & Steve). That pleased the 2 or 3 cattlemen who spoke up at the meeting, so maybe that's a good starting gesture.
 
Once again, SFW has been at the helm of wildlife management in Utah for the past 15 years. Other groups have been involved but SFW has dominated the decision making process. SFW deserves credit for some of the successes (not mild winters) but they also bear responsibility for many of the problems we are facing. For Cody to point his finger at RMEF or any other conservation group when a problem arises is laughable but expected.

-Hawkeye-
 
> Again it's a little
>tough without a united voice.
>

Yea but that united voice is $FW. They represent the common sportsmen and women of Utah. Just ask them.

So what are they doing about it Muley?

I'll tell ya what they're doing, not a damn thing. $FW would never oppose anything the Utah legislation does because that's their cash cow.

The day when a representative from $FW (you know the $FW who is the voice for sportsmen and women of Utah) stands in front of the wildlife board and the cattlemen present and tells them enough is enough of the elk slaughter is the day hell freezes over.
 
Jason,
No more laughable than convincing the RMEF they could actually get the Expo. But hey you sold them on the idea. All's well that ends well. :)
 
I Do Agree with what goofyelk said!

It'll get worse!

Then They'll move to another LE Unit & Thrash it!

PISS POOR Management!

Managed for Money!

If there was only one Elk left in the State the DWR would say the Ranchers want it Killed!

Utah = How not to Manage Wildlife!






She Don't Just Rain She Pours!

That Girl Right There's The Perfect Storm!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
M73-

I never convinced RMEF that the DWR would treat them fairly or that they could win the Expo contract. RMEF was interested in submitting a competing proposal in pursuant to the DWR's invitation to the public, and I agreed to assist them with the process. Pretty simple.

I knew from the beginning that it would be an uphill battle and the odds of the DWR awarding the contract to anyone other than SFW/MDF was highly unlikely but it was worth the effort because if nothing else it would shine a light on the politics and problems that exist in Utah. The process went about as expected, the DWR ignored and violated their own rules and the public saw that the entire process was a sham. No real surprises there.

Good luck on your coues deer hunt. Post some photos when you return.

-Hawkeye-
 

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