Benefits of preference points?

moseleymiddleton

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For those of you who hunt in states with preference points what are the pros and cons of a points system?

What are the average wait times for tags when you accumulate max points say in an area with a 100 tags.

What benefits are given to the wildlife?


My thoughts are I do not support a preference points for Wyoming residents. My feelings are based as it dies not give benefits to help restore wildlife populations, it makes way for a special draw tag like non residents have where if your willing to pay, you have a better chance of drawing. It also does not allow youth a chance to hunt, it will make it impossible for them to draw a tag for many years, some may be adults before drawing.
 
I grew up in Wyo and as a Wyo res I only drew 1 limited elk tag in almost 20 years of applying. Some of my buddies drew 2 or 3 tags during this time while I drew nothing. Once I moved away and became a nonres I actually started drawing more limited elk, deer, and antelope tags thanks to Wyo's nonres pref pt system! I've drawn 3 tough elk tags, 2 deer tags, and great antelope tags just about every year.

Most Wyo res have a bad taste in their mouth about pref pts because the only species where Wyo res have pts is for bighorn sheep. It's pretty obvious that the Wyo sheep pref pt system is a joke! There are so many applicants vying for so few sheep tags that only max pref pt applicants have a chance for these tags.

I live in Colo and actually am excited that Colo has a pref pt system. Thanks to our pref pt system I've draw great deer, elk, antelope, mtn goat, and bighorn sheep tags over the years. Obviously I don't apply for the toughest tags in the state that may take a lifetime to draw regardless of whether there is a pt system or not.

Once Colo limited all deer tags to a draw it spread out applicants over every unit of the state which took the pressure off point creep in tough to draw units. Unfortunately Colo hasn't followed suite with elk. There are few limited elk tags available in Colo because so many units are OTC. If Colo switched to all draw elk tags similar to deer it would change things dramatically.

Do I think Colo's pref pt system is perfect...heck no! Do I think it's better than no pref pt system at all..heck yes! Obviously some draw systems are better than others. I actually like NV's bonus pt system where those that have the highest pts have a better chance to draw but everyone...including those just starting out applying still have a chance to draw.

I could probably write a book on this subject. Plain and simple....thank you Wyoming for offering pref pts to nonres!
 
NM has no point system. I like the fact I have a chance every year. You guys can keep the point system.The elk tag I have drew 2 out of the last three years would take ten to draw.
 
>NM has no point system. I
>like the fact I have
>a chance every year. You
>guys can keep the point
>system.The elk tag I have
>drew 2 out of the
>last three years would take
>ten to draw.

^^^If you drew that many good tag it means that someone else got screwed.

My thoughts:
The true odds can't be changed but a points system rewards those who take the game seriously.

Random sucks and I applied in many western States for 20 years without a tag. Only after points systems were put in place did I begin to feel rewarded for my diligence.

Oh, the youth have many many opportunities to hunt in "lesser" units. What's wrong with that? Why would you think a 12 year old girl "should" have a bighorn, moose, top tier elk tag? If they want to hunt, they can and will. I should know, my 4 daughters have been through it and now, as married adults, are accomplished hunters and have gone on to draw great tags because of points!

Having a points system = priceless

Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-19-13 AT 11:20AM (MST)[p]The biggest problem with preference point systems is they create an "Entitlement" attitude. Guys with 20 points in Utah will tell you they are entitled a permit over others, even if applicants with half as many points will never draw the same permit. Some feel that just because they were eligible to apply at some arbitrary point in time when point systems started that they should be assured the permit-- which happens at the expense of the masses.

Preference points seem to work well if people can be moved through the system fairly rapidly. Say 1-10 years. Utah's split of 50-50 seems to be a good middle-ground for the 10-30 year waits. Preference Points are a joke for hunts which take a lifetime or longer to draw.

I like some type of reward for dedication in the draws, but just look at how some of the WY, UT and harder CO hunts have given opportunity to a select few, while making it almost impossible for those behind to ever draw.

It is very hard to change a system once it has been in place and people are dependent on the points. Unfortunately there are no easy answers to balance the demand which out-weighs the resource.
 
I have to agree with PACKOUT ON THE WHOLE ENTITLEMENT THING. oops, caplock. I hate the attitude some dudes have.
There should be a reward for the diligent applicant but the late entrant should always have a crack at the permit. Utah's system is pretty good.
There probably isn't a perfect system since the demand will always exceed the supply.
Zeke
 
Nevada system is the best and i wish all western states would adopt that system. I can draw a deer tag about every 3 years and i hunted antelope there, which will never happen in utah for me.
 
I'd be all for a simple waiting period. No pref points necessary. Make it three years. Draw odds in every area would improve, some more than others. The I'll never get to hunt whiner crowd would still be able to hunt every year with general tags and leftover licenses.
 
>Guess if you like hunting once
>every ten years a point
>system is the way to
>go.

Duh? Really? You sound like my w... nevermind.
What are you applying for that takes 10 years to draw and because of that you have to stay home?
Maybe a LE elk or deer. Like I said, the demand will always and forever outstrip the supply.
The stark fact is not everyone will hunt everything!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Zeke
 
I came off a little strong.
I appologize for being so abrupt and rude.

Yes, I know you live in NM and hunt every year and you drew 2 great tags in 3 years that SHOULD HAVE TAKEN YOU 10 YEARS EACH TO DRAW which means some poor sap got screwed because he'll wait 30 year for the same tag.
Points just balance things out... in my way of thinking.
Zeke
 
I used to think preference/bonus point systems were good. The more I've applied and learned about them, the less I like them. I think no points system like Idaho, NM, resident Wyoming is the best. Here is why:

I think with point systems more people apply because they need to "build" points where they might not be as consistent with a no point system.

I know some may disagree but know there are some people who put in family members and friends to build points and help them have a higher draw average to draw tags that may or may not get used by the family member.

I know there are guys who get lucky and draw often and others who never draw with point systems, but statistically you should draw tags eventually with better odds than in a point system due to the above reasons.

Point systems create an entitlement as Packout explained above that are nearly impossible to get away from and add hesitancy for game managers to drastically change game management practices because point holders get so invested in drawing tags they've put in for years, even if it will help the population and situation or even draw odds for the future.


WYmoose
 
Right now there is a bill being introduced to the Wyoming state legislation by a select few to make Wyoming residents have a point system with a 50/50 draw. 50% to the max point holder to 50% to those with less than max points.

I'd like to to see this stopped.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-19-13 AT 09:19PM (MST)[p]I can assure you that any Resident Preference point system will be met with lots of opposition.

As far as I know, there has been no bill introduced by the TRW committee regarding Preference Points. Doubtful it will happen since this is a budget session.

Oh, and jims, as usual, you dont know what you're talking about. Residents have a point system for both moose and sheep. Its also not true that only max point holders are drawing sheep tags.

For once, I also agree with triple_bb a 3 year waiting period for tags with less than 20% draw odds would squelch this point BS.

Also, the entitlement attitude is definately created with a point system. There was a bill heard in committee last session that would allow the transfer of preference points between family members. What it would have allowed is for husbands/wives/kids/aunts/uncles to transfer all or a portion of their points to any member of their family.

The arguement that was used is that the preference points have value since they were purchased by the applicants. Therefore, they argued that since there was value, points should be able to be transfered.

Problems like this are exactly what point systems bring...not to mention point creep, cheating youth/new hunters out of drawing opportunities, skewing draw odds, etc. etc. etc.

Like I said, any proposed point systems for Residents is going to be met with lots of oppostion. We rallied the Resident hunters to kill the bill on the Floor last session, we'll do the same again if necessary. Count on it.
 
I am anti point code only for years and years----

Like Zeke stated---then the Entitlement Crowd surfaces when they finally get off the bench (point code for years) and into the game (actually apply for a hunt) then think they deserve to draw over all the other applicants.

Packout's post is really a dang good overview---period! ha

Robb
 
I agree. Nevada has the best system.

>Nevada system is the best and
>i wish all western states
>would adopt that system.
>I can draw a deer
>tag about every 3 years
>and i hunted antelope there,
>which will never happen in
>utah for me.
 
Points suck.

I would prefer a true random draw any day with a sliding waiting period. Draw a top tag, you have to wait X number of years to apply again for that tag.

I have watched as every unit around me here in Colorado has climbed in points. People will build points just to build points. Hell as a non resident in WY I missed the first year of points. To get the tag I want I am looking at at least another 6-7 years to get a Ferris Bull tag. Once I draw it, I will never be able to hunt it again, no chance at all. I am screwed.

No one can argue the fairness of the random draw, everyone has an equal chance.

When you go to points new hunter, kids, all get screwed. I feel bad for anyone just enterring the points games. They will have years of frustration trying to get tags that are better than average. 10 years ago I started saving points as a CO resident for a unit that took 4 points. I am now at 10, and the tag is taking another 2-3 years right now. By the time I am done I will have put in 15 years to get a unit and tag I used to hunt yearly in the 1990s

Do not let yourselves get suckered into the points game.
 
Points or no points. If you're not going out and seeing the deer or elk or whatever, even if you don't have a tag, then just stay in your city slicking condo and stay in your comfy chair in front of your big screen TV. I can wait a lifetime to harvest a trophy animal, but there is no way I will wait a lifetime to see them. Either way, I am sick of hiking my butt off and not seeing anything of maturity; before, during and after the hunting seasons. Too many pisscutters are being taken before their prime. I'm not saying to take away hunting altogether, though it might be better that way. I would just like to see some management from the Fish and Game, instead of the hunters. Such as killing everything that they legally can, leaving and then only coming back when the game hasn't came even close to replenished itself. Instead of using the buck to doe ratio, use the hunter to buck ratio. Or the square mile to hunter ratio. Or if you bring in a lion or a coyote, you get a tag. If you read all of this, I'm sorry you don't have anything to do, neither do I. I can't afford nightvision, but it is on my wish list. And so is a better camera.





________________________________________
I'm not one for telling my grandson how big of turd I had to pinch off from having to eat so much meat. I want to give him the trophies that hang from my wall and tell him the unforgettable experience that came with each and every one.
 
I've got mixed emotions on the points I guess.

I wonder - how does a younger guy ever draw a good tag in Arizona for example for mule deer or elk if they didn't get into the points game when it first started? I haven't researched it too much and analayzed it long, but from what I've read a guy with 1-3 points won't ever draw a coveted tag in Arizona. That's kind of frustrating. NR anyway...
 
Let's do a little math problem together since some of you guys think random will get you a tag:

Let's say you have 10 pieces of candy and you're 1 of 5000 guys standing in line.

Whether the candy is thrown into the group or it's handed out in a semi-orderly manner changes not the fact that 4990 guys will go without candy. Simply, there's more demand for the candy than the supply can bear.

Regardless of the candy dispensing system some guys will go their whole life without candy, Period.

Zeke
 

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