Biggest problem with Utah's deer herd

Itipaw

Member
Messages
7
It have read a lot of topics and I think the answer is pretty simple...Its a combination of many things some of which include:

Lions
Coyotes
Highways
Over Hunting
Poaching

I would bet all the money in my bank account that if we reintroduced poison for coyotes, opened lion hunting to over the counter tags with no limit, built more fences to keep the deer of the Highways in key areas, cut the tag numbers by about half (raise the price of a tag by two, so the money hungry DWR can still get their fair share and can work on habitat restoration), and upped the punishment for poaching..... You would most definitely see a increase in the number of deer and quality of bucks. Although we can't forget about the basic economic law of the indifference principle.... if the law allows you to shoot a two point they will....

Just my two cents.

And one last think... anyone that can give me concrete evidence that increasing the number of lions will increase deer numbers because they prey on the coyotes can have a gold star. However I highly doubt the research and proof exists.

Justin
 
All for it except no raising the tag prices. Why pay 100 bucks for a deer tag, when I can go to Wyoming to hunt a quality herd for 350. Also the DWR is funded by the state, therefore they should get off this raising tag chit and get back to what matter which is game management.
 
All of the topics you listed are factors that affect mule deer herds definitely no questions asked. But also the factors of feeding & wintering grounds. Also the fawn survival rate, from all of these factors is the key indicator.

Anybody that wants to learn more about mule deer habitat needs to read this information.

https://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/mule_deer_wafwa.pdf

You can usually get a free copy at a division office or any upcoming expo.
 
Once again:

Lions at the Top of His List!

Might wanna spend a little more time in the Back Woods!

Several Quota Areas/Units not filled!

Must be Millions of Lions though!

Yes!

They do eat Deer but GEEZUS get a Clue!










[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
If they did open Lion season up for a Free for all I'd like to see how many were truthfully taken without the Help of a Hounder!

JUDAS!








[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
elkassasin

Honestly you are the one that needs to get out in the hills. I don't know where you are from but I am from central Utah and I hunt lions and do a lot of hiking....

You honestly don't know how many lions there are. Just because they are not filling the quota tags doesn't mean there are not lions and too many for that matter.

I was up running a cat just last week and I honestly saw more lion tracks than deer tracks. And guess what, they allot 6 lion tags on that entire unit..... You could shoot five lions in that one canyon and still just put a small dent in the lion population.

The problem is you got guys (a minority) that love to run their dogs and they piss and moan to the DWR that there isn't enough lions and get units shut down so they have easy lions to catch. Well guess what it screws the deer hunting up for all the rest of us.

I put lions at the top of the list for a reason. A typical adult lion will take one deer every one and a half to two weeks. That is more deer in a half of year that most people shoot in years even dedicated hunters....

Like I said in my original post... unless someone can show me concrete data that lions don't effect the deer I will not believe it!
 
I agree with Itipaw. I'm no lion expert, but I have hunted them a lot with friends and family. More often than not when trailing a cat we have found a fresh (less than a week old) kill from that lion. Often times it is a mature loner buck.

I'm not saying lions are the biggest problem, but predators in general, especially in area where the snow is deep. Easy pickings for a coyote.

My dad tells if his younger days when lions were shot on site and coyotes were poisoned by the masses. The result was the biggest deer herd in the last hundred years. The late sixties and seventies had as many deer harvested as there are deer hunters today. I don't think it was coincidence. This is in an area where there is currently no threat to winter range, and grazing is lore limited now that it was then. By deduction we can see that it is either predators or poaching.... All other factors have remained the same for the last 30 years.

I would love to see every predator poisoned!
 
Ummmmmm,

Habitat anyone ?

Quality habitat for mule deer would be the top of my list!

Lions, well Itipaw, you sure aint no houndsmen, OR a tracker.
Cuz your dead wrong on this one.


4aec49a65c565954.jpg
 
While all the things mentioned by the OP are certaily negatively impacting deer herds, I'd have to agree with the posters who said "habitat" and "elk" should be at the top of the list.

Poaching is never acceptable but it has pretty much zero impact on the overall herd health. Most dirt-bags don't shoot does (they are the heart of a healthy herd).

I think lions have an impact but it's way down the list IMHO. The lowly coyote is responsible for more fawn deaths than any other perdator but it ultimately come back to habitat!

Ultimately it's the shrinking or degrading of prime deer habitat which has the most impact.

I think it boils down to 3 things;
1-habitat
2-Habitat
3-HABITAT

My 2 cents,
Zeke
 
goofyelk

Your assumptions are down right hilarious. You don't know anything about me....

When it comes to elk I think the DWR biologists are so tired of trying to explain the difference between browsers and gazers it is not even funny.

If it is the elk show me some concrete statistical data that connects elk and deer populations and I will put elk on the list.

I think that highways kill far more deer than elk do....

There is no doubt that habitat will help deer thrive. But except for the Wasatch front and other similar places most of Utah has not changed significantly from the 80's and if anything there is less cows and sheep permits for the mountains and winter areas.

Show me some statistical data that my argument is invalid and I will change it.

If you don't believe that lions make a difference you need to look up the study that USU did on lions and see how many deer kills the found over the time of the study and tell me that didn't make a difference.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-07-14 AT 01:34PM (MST)[p]IMO, our problem is we want to turn the clock back to an UNNATURAL ERA.
Historically mule deer numbers in the West were never naturally high. They only exploded because early settlers over grazed the grass lands and introduced a healthy shrub culture. (which deer thrive on) The settlers also tried to kill all predators and eliminated competing elk herds which threatened ranching interests. Deer eat shrubs which are useless to livestock, so settlers let them be.
Then we sent all able bodied hunters off to war for 4 or 5 years and stopped hunting all together.
No wonder we hear of the "good old days" of deer hunting.

Since that time we have become extremely efficient killing machines with every tech tool imaginable. We have become obsessed with trophy antlers and expect to see them on every outing, and if we don't, well it's gotta be the DWR's fault! We harass weak wintering deer while looking for sheds, and push them hard to get winter pictures.

In addition, we started suppressing fires (doing away with the shrub culture, and encouraging grass-which elk thrive on). Juniper encroachment has overtaken sage communities which once housed large deer numbers, but now won't even grow jack rabbits. We have built highways down almost every deer migration route, and built homes and fences in every preferred winter ground.

Unfortunately WE are the problem. Zeke is right! Deer have to have the right environment in which to grow and we have ruined it. And IMO, the "good old days" of mule deer hunting are never coming back.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-07-14 AT 01:52PM (MST)[p]If elk have no impact then why even bring up cows and sheep? They're grazers too!

When the elk inhabit an area they make it harder for the deer to make it their home too. Not impossible but certainly harder. It falls in with shinking habitat! The elk don't actually KILL the deer but they get displaced into less-than-prime country. More deer die from various causes, including predation, when moved into marginal habitat.

I HAVE PERSONALLY SEEN ELK CHASE DEER OFF WATER HOLES. NOT BUMP THEM OFF, CHASE THEM OFF AND RUN THEM OUT OF SIGHT.

That's just another reason elk should be on your list.

Zeke
 
Sad to say but LBH is 100% accurate.
There are things we can and should do but we'll never see mule deer hunting again like we did when we were young deer hunters....45 years ago. The habitat has changed too much.
Back in the day, It was a RARE sight to run into an elk but the deer were everywhere. It's a different story nowadays and for a variety of reasons.
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-07-14 AT 01:54PM (MST)[p]Many problems as noted.
!. Weather, winter kill and droughts.
2. Predators lions and coyotes, especially with lower deer populations.
3. Cars. More deer get killed by cars than by hunters in Northern Utah.
4. Habitat. In towns the habitat is poor, but most city deer populations are on the rise, even with high mortality from cars.
5. Harrasment from hunters, predators, hikers, four wheelers, snowmobilers, etc.

Sportmen have raised millions in UTah to improve habitat. In some areas habitat is not the factor. Deer herds are well below carring capacity. In these areas habitat is not the problem. In areas where deer and elk are competing for food and habitat is poor, in Northern Utah where snow is deep and stays longer,with colder temps. habitat could be one of the main problems.

The deer population problems depend on the location of the state, but there are several factors as noted.
 
You guys need to take something into consideration..You will never get deer back to what they were, just a fact.

You all ##### and moan about the coyote/lions..Do you guys realize they are shooting does clear till january? Farmers and ranchers raise holy hell when there is 5 deer out on their hay. I can remember as a kid seeing HUNDREDS of deer every single evening hitting the hay fields. That chit will not fly these days, they will be killed when the winter runs them off the mountain.

How do you guys plan on staging this big comeback when one hot summer with no rain or an early heavy snow that drives the deer down to be wiped out by an "emergency depredation hunt". Because it will happen.I guess most of you live in the city and are blissfully ignorant that this chit even happens, half of you probly apply for these shoots.

Two years ago the deer piled into the valleys during the dry summer, they were making somewhat of a comeback for the prior 5 years..guess what, that comeback was un done in a matter of a month. How many of you guys that ##### about predators get doe/cow tags? If the herd cant sustain it, why do you continue to put in for these hunts? There is never a shortage of guys willing to kill a doe,all the while bitching about the herd numbers.

God help a pronghorn if he gets into the hay patch, they are killed like vermin up in the NW corner. Usually by ranchers with a hundred grand worth of high fencing material sitting there rusting in the stack yard, bought and supplied by the state to go around the hay.

I know not ALL farmers are like that, and i know with the fuel costs and everythign else going up they really cant afford to take the hit..So the depredation begins. Solve that riddle.
 
Littlebighorn,
You are absolutely correct about the grazing practices on the early 1900s creating an abnormally high production rate of browse species. I wish I had the link but there are pioneer accounts having to stand on the saddle of their horse to find their cows. 40 - 50 years later of giving the sage brush a competitive advantage and the deer herd has more feed than its ever seen before.

Oh and by the way it does look like the DWR gets most of its funding from deer tags
http://wildlife.utah.gov/about-us/64-what-we-do/about-us/191-financial-overview.html
 
Check out the new book, "Mule Deer Retrospective". It offers some pretty good science...

I would say the two biggest benefits to mule deer would be poisoning predators and more wildfires.

Those two things changed dramatically right before the mule deer crash of 50 years ago.

Grizzly
 
>You guys need to take something
>into consideration..You will never get
>deer back to what they
>were, just a fact.
>
>You all ##### and moan about
>the coyote/lions..Do you guys realize
>they are shooting does clear
>till january? Farmers and ranchers
>raise holy hell when there
>is 5 deer out on
>their hay. I can remember
>as a kid seeing HUNDREDS
>of deer every single evening
>hitting the hay fields. That
>chit will not fly these
>days, they will be killed
>when the winter runs them
>off the mountain.
>
>How do you guys plan on
>staging this big comeback when
>one hot summer with no
>rain or an early heavy
>snow that drives the deer
>down to be wiped out
>by an "emergency depredation hunt".
>Because it will happen.I guess
>most of you live in
>the city and are blissfully
>ignorant that this chit even
>happens, half of you probly
>apply for these shoots.
>
>Two years ago the deer piled
>into the valleys during the
>dry summer, they were making
>somewhat of a comeback for
>the prior 5 years..guess what,
>that comeback was un done
>in a matter of a
>month. How many of you
>guys that ##### about predators
>get doe/cow tags? If the
>herd cant sustain it, why
>do you continue to put
>in for these hunts? There
>is never a shortage of
>guys willing to kill a
>doe,all the while bitching about
>the herd numbers.
>
>God help a pronghorn if he
>gets into the hay patch,
>they are killed like vermin
>up in the NW corner.
>Usually by ranchers with a
>hundred grand worth of high
>fencing material sitting there rusting
>in the stack yard, bought
>and supplied by the state
>to go around the hay.
>
>
>I know not ALL farmers are
>like that, and i know
>with the fuel costs and
>everythign else going up they
>really cant afford to take
>the hit..So the depredation begins.
>Solve that riddle.

^^^^Yup, it sounds like a lack of habitat problem to me.
Cars, roads, houses, farms, dams, etc can all be blamed but they are to blame only because they took the habitat!
I don't agree with wiping out the does on these hunts or even have the hunts but ultimately it's because of habitat loss!

Signed; blissfully ignorant, city dwelling dumbazz, uneducated,
Zeke
 
>elkassasin
>
>Honestly you are the one that
>needs to get out in
>the hills. I don't know
>where you are from but
>I am from central Utah
>and I hunt lions and
>do a lot of hiking....
>
>
>You honestly don't know how many
>lions there are. Just because
>they are not filling the
>quota tags doesn't mean there
>are not lions and too
>many for that matter.
>
>I was up running a cat
>just last week and I
>honestly saw more lion tracks
>than deer tracks. And guess
>what, they allot 6 lion
>tags on that entire unit.....
>You could shoot five lions
>in that one canyon and
>still just put a small
>dent in the lion population.
>
>
>The problem is you got guys
>(a minority) that love to
>run their dogs and they
>piss and moan to the
>DWR that there isn't enough
>lions and get units shut
>down so they have easy
>lions to catch. Well guess
>what it screws the deer
>hunting up for all the
>rest of us.
>
>I put lions at the top
>of the list for a
>reason. A typical adult lion
>will take one deer every
>one and a half to
>two weeks. That is more
>deer in a half of
>year that most people shoot
>in years even dedicated hunters....
>
>
>Like I said in my original
>post... unless someone can show
>me concrete data that lions
>don't effect the deer I
>will not believe it!

IttyBittyPaw!

You're up in the F'N Night!

More Lion Tracks than Deer Tracks!

JUDAS!

That doesn't take very many Lion Tracks now does it?

Sounds like you're the Worlds GREATEST Houndsmen?

How many of these Thousands of Lion Tracks you see on a given day that are Adult Lions?

I don't wanna hear about your Buddy Joe Blow killing a 50 Pound PISSCUTTER Kitten neither!

Yes,I know Lions Eat,and so do TARDS!

But I thought Lions ate 2 Deer a Day,WTF?

If you think Lions are the Number one Cause of PISS POOR Deer Herds you're up in the F'N Night!

You Probably see Lions Runnin in Packs,Right?

GEEZUS!
















[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
elkassassin

You should try to be a bit less extreme... It makes you look too smart. I guess you might not be a "TARD" but you aren't much to brag about.

Thanksgiving of 2011 I saw four lions running together.. So you hit the nail on the head, they are running in packs now.

One thing you all should realize is that each area has it's own challenges. Where I am from there are three main factors that keep the deer population down.

Lions (not enough tags)
Highway
Over hunting (to many tags, unless you want to shoot two points)

The habitat has been pretty much the same for years.......

And I have never shot a cow elk or a doe.

The fact of the matter is poaching does make a difference because poachers typically shoot the trophy in the area the one in a thousand animal that is smart enough to make it through the season and should pass it genes on. If you think poaching doesn't effect the deer populations you are wrong.

And I also agree that animals get too much stress. Like the late season Sanpete archery elk. It is the most unethical thing the DWR has done and it is less effective. The elk still cross the highway. It is a disaster for the landowners that can't keep trespasser off and from destroying there stuff. And for sure a disaster for the elk that don't get a break....
 
I Knew it!

I Just F'N Knew it!

You see Lions in Flocks on a Regular Basis!

I'll agree with your last 2 Paragraphs!

Must not be many Hounders/Lion Hunters in Central TADville?

So?

To Tree 3-4 Lions in one day in your Neck of the Woods wouldn't be a Big Deal,Right?

Especially if you turn out on them 4 at a time!:D












[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
Itipaw,
What unit you talkin about ?

Because theres only a hand full of units left that dosn't
have HO hunting for lions.......

Heck, help all these hound guys out lookin for a track to
run some hounds on-------------Were are all these cats at?

4aec49a65c565954.jpg
 
>Itipaw,
>What unit you talkin about ?
>
>
>Because theres only a hand full
>of units left that dosn't
>
>have HO hunting for lions.......
>
>Heck, help all these hound guys
>out lookin for a track
>to
>run some hounds on-------------Were are all
>these cats at?
>
>
4aec49a65c565954.jpg



Hey goofy?

They'te in Herds down his way!

Ain't no damn wonder the Deer Herd is gone!













[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
I will agree with the shrub culture theory. No doubt that helped. No question that Juniper encroachment kill vital deer forage and consumes large amounts of water. A good Juniper fire across large areas of the state would no question generate a lot of food/habitat/water for out deer.

In regards to sheep and cows on the range I have a couple questions. I have a good friend who is a range manager for the Forest Service. He researched the data and coincidentally, when the deer numbers were at their highest so was the numbers of cattle and sheep grazing on public range. This makes me think that like LBH said, there was plant types that deer thrived on that were introduced. There was more water available in the form of wind mill wells, earth dams and piped water. They used to be everywhere! Nearly in every draw. Now a days they are really spread out. And lastly, predator control was in force to protect the livestock.

We have to remember that sheep are browsers (like deer) and cows are grazers (like elk). There are far fewer sheep that 30 or 40 years ago. My dads side of the family used to be sheep ranchers.... and they killed a ton of big deer fight behind the ranch.

Last point is that no question in the 70's 80's and 90's there were way too many deer tags given. The deer were probably considered a limitless resource, just like salmon were considered in Idaho. The runs in Salmon Idaho were equal to that of Alaska. They almost went extinct. I think that the deer are no different.

Too many tags issued (in the past) in addition to habitat loss, specifically winter range (in some areas) and predators are the three biggest elements in deer number decline. Winter range lost will probably never be reversed, but the others can be. Strictly monitor the number of tags issued, burn down some cedars and put more water out there and get rid of the coyotes (poison if needed)!
 
The DWR with their partners have done habitat improvement for about 1.5 million acres over the past 10 years. There have been numerous Juniper stand destroyed by fire over the past 15 years. The concerning fact still remains that even in those areas that have gone through extensive habitat improvement (specifically for deer) 10 years ago, there is still no significant population increase. The habitat in some areas will never see improvement because of human encroachment. However, Highland City is trying to figure out how to drastically reduce the deer problem within city limits. No hunting ( figuring out how to accommodate archers to kill deer), no cougars, no real predation factor. Anyone who thinks that predators are not one of the major factors in suppressed deer numbers isn't being realistic. I do agree that extended antlerless hunts for elk or deer is extremely hard on the animals. Even if only elk are being hunted the deer react and put into a more stressful environment as if they were the targeted animal. Its my opinion that there is room for a sizable increase in deer numbers in certain areas of the state. I believe that if cougar numbers are not cut in half it will never happen. If the cougar hunters want more cougars, I think we first need to have more deer. I like what was said in another post- the deer seem to be a "predator pit"- that is, there are just enough cougars in combination with other factors to essentially wipe out any increase that occurs every spring. If we had more deer the cougar predation would not be as huge of factor in deer populations. The deer would simply out produced the mortality factors every year. We have to find a way out of the stagnant population levels-- somethings got to give. Now- name one mortality factor that is as economically feasible in regards to allowing deer populations to have more of a chance to increase than reducing cougar numbers for a few years. Highway fencing, more habitat improvement etc cost millions and probably won't have the best beneficial effect that predator removal could. Just my opinion.
 
You are correct Nebo. We can't control weather, limited control on cars killing our deer, You can't kill female lions with kittens, even if you killed most lions in some units, there are still enough to stop recruitment. Coyotes are a problem.

When we had lots of sheep grazing in the 60's-80's we also had poison and herders killing more coyotes,lions,fox, bobcats, and eagles.

We more loss of habitat, weather related kills, cars, human population growth and development,we will never get deer back to high populations imo.

Lets do what we can do though.
 
>It have read a lot of
>topics and I think the
>answer is pretty simple...Its a
>combination of many things some
>of which include:
>
>Lions
>Coyotes
>Highways
>Over Hunting
>Poaching
>
>I would bet all the money
>in my bank account that
>if we reintroduced poison for
>coyotes, opened lion hunting to
>over the counter tags with
>no limit, built more fences
>to keep the deer of
>the Highways in key areas,
>cut the tag numbers by
>about half (raise the price
>of a tag by two,
>so the money hungry DWR
>can still get their fair
>share and can work on
>habitat restoration), and upped the
>punishment for poaching..... You would
>most definitely see a increase
>in the number of deer
>and quality of bucks. Although
>we can't forget about the
>basic economic law of the
>indifference principle.... if the law
>allows you to shoot a
>two point they will....
>
>Just my two cents.
>
>And one last think... anyone that
>can give me concrete evidence
>that increasing the number of
>lions will increase deer numbers
>because they prey on the
>coyotes can have a gold
>star. However I highly doubt
>the research and proof exists.
>
>
>Justin
 

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