Thought-provoking things

rockymtnhunter

Active Member
Messages
198
Fellow MMer?s:
(This is a long read) Here are some random thoughts after 45 yrs of hunting muleys in the West (AZ, CO, MT, NM, OR, UT and WY). I've seen the good, bad & ugly of muley hunting, and had my share of screw-ups, poor choices, and some uneven hunting ethics. In addition, I'm concerned about the direction I see muley hunting going, esp. in terms of hunting ethics, fair chase and opportunity. I've talked and read about these concerns, and I think others share some of my concerns ? things like declining herds, loss of access to public lands, private gain from a public resource, increasing license prices, non-residents getting priced out with reduced opportunity for fewer & fewer tags, preference/bonus point creep, loss of crucial habitat, off-road vehicles, hunter/wildlife harassment, hunting turning into an activity only for rich property owners, landowner vouchers, hunting winter range areas during the winter, lack of recruitment of young hunters, and so on and so forth. I'm sure some of my thoughts will gore somebody?s ox, and maybe even be a little offensive, or maybe viewed as impractical or just plain crazy - but I think they're worth rolling around in our heads and maybe they will get us thinking individually and collectively about what could be changed. I apologize in advance if someone takes offense ? it is not my intent to offend ? only to get us to think about things, and what we might do to help.

1. Ban use of electronic devices to communicate the location of big game during hunting seasons.
2. Limit 3 companions with hunter (the ?posse? & ?entourage? & ?spotters? are getting out-of-hand IMO).
3. Ban overnight 24/7 tracking/monitoring of deer ? this is harassment IMO.
4. Limit use of ATVs (OK, I know States/Feds/Locals & others are trying, but there needs to be better self-governance by ATV users IMO) & let's get a better handle on off-road travel.
5. Ban use of trail cameras sooner than 15 days prior to opening day & during the open season.
6. Ban spot/fly-in hunting techniques and/or 24 or 48 hr delay before hunting.
7. Increase public permits on private lands that allow public access (e.g. CWMU or RFW) - limit private gain from public resource ? the legal principle in this country is that wildlife is held in trust by the State for all citizens.
8. Stop giving away public permits to private organizations/events that line their pockets with our resources.
9. Eliminate limited entry & premium limited entry hunting units - designate High Demand (HD) and/or High Quality (HQ) hunting units and/or hunts ? hunters can apply for only one HD or HQ (deer or elk) hunt per year ? multi-year layover between successful draw of HD/HQ tag.
10. Private land season dates same as public land dates.
11. Increase price of resident licenses and remove caps on #?s of nonresident licenses.
12. No application by ?proxy? ? I sometimes wonder if some hunters have others apply for permits.
13. Eliminate or limit ability to turn back permits, except for truly exceptional/extraordinary circumstances ? I've heard of hunters returning a tag because they didn't scout a ?big enough? buck.
14. Return to equal drawing chances for all applicants - five-year phase out of bonus/preference point systems ? i.e. no further bonus/preference pts earned and existing # of points decreases by 20%/year until zero points remain - IMO levels the playing field in terms of hunter opportunity to draw a permit.
15. Eliminate requirement for licensed guide to hunt in designated wilderness.
16. No baiting.
 
Don't agree with all of them but could swap out a few.

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway."
 
>Fellow MMer?s:
>(This is a long read) Here
>are some random thoughts after
>45 yrs of hunting
>muleys in the West (AZ,
>CO, MT, NM, OR, UT
>and WY). I've seen the
>good, bad & ugly of
>muley hunting, and had my
>share of screw-ups, poor choices,
>and some uneven hunting ethics.
>In addition, I'm concerned about
>the direction I see muley
>hunting going, esp. in terms
>of hunting ethics, fair chase
>and opportunity. I've talked and
>read about these concerns, and
>I think others share some
>of my concerns ? things
>like declining herds, loss of
>access to public lands, private
>gain from a public resource,
>increasing license prices, non-residents getting
>priced out with reduced opportunity
>for fewer & fewer tags,
>preference/bonus point creep, loss of
>crucial habitat, off-road vehicles, hunter/wildlife
>harassment, hunting turning into an
>activity only for rich property
>owners, landowner vouchers, hunting winter
>range areas during the winter,
>lack of recruitment of young
>hunters, and so on and
>so forth. I'm sure some
>of my thoughts will gore
>somebody?s ox, and maybe even
>be a little offensive, or
>maybe viewed as impractical or
>just plain crazy - but
>I think they're worth rolling
>around in our heads and
>maybe they will get us
>thinking individually and collectively about
>what could be changed.
>I apologize in advance if
>someone takes offense ? it
>is not my intent to
>offend ? only to get
>us to think about things,
>and what we might do
>to help.
>
>1. Ban use of electronic devices
>to communicate the location of
>big game during hunting seasons.
>
>2. Limit 3 companions with hunter
>(the ?posse? & ?entourage? &
>?spotters? are getting out-of-hand IMO).
>
>3. Ban overnight 24/7 tracking/monitoring of
>deer ? this is harassment
>IMO.
>4. Limit use of ATVs (OK,
>I know States/Feds/Locals & others
>are trying, but there needs
>to be better self-governance by
>ATV users IMO) & let's
>get a better handle on
>off-road travel.
>5. Ban use of trail cameras
>sooner than 15 days prior
>to opening day & during
>the open season.
>6. Ban spot/fly-in hunting techniques and/or
>24 or 48 hr delay
>before hunting.
>7. Increase public permits on private
>lands that allow public access
>(e.g. CWMU or RFW) -
>limit private gain from public
>resource ? the legal principle
>in this country is that
>wildlife is held in trust
>by the State for all
>citizens.
>8. Stop giving away public permits
>to private organizations/events that line
>their pockets with our resources.
>
>9. Eliminate limited entry & premium
>limited entry hunting units -
>designate High Demand (HD) and/or
>High Quality (HQ) hunting units
>and/or hunts ? hunters can
>apply for only one HD
>or HQ (deer or elk)
>hunt per year ? multi-year
>layover between successful draw of
>HD/HQ tag.
>10. Private land season dates same
>as public land dates.
>11. Increase price of resident licenses
>and remove caps on #?s
>of nonresident licenses.
>12. No application by ?proxy? ?
>I sometimes wonder if some
>hunters have others apply for
>permits.
>13. Eliminate or limit ability to
>turn back permits, except for
>truly exceptional/extraordinary circumstances ? I've
>heard of hunters returning a
>tag because they didn't scout
>a ?big enough? buck.
>14. Return to equal drawing chances
>for all applicants - five-year
>phase out of bonus/preference point
>systems ? i.e. no further
>bonus/preference pts earned and existing
> # of points decreases
>by 20%/year until zero points
>remain - IMO levels the
>playing field in terms of
>hunter opportunity to draw a
>permit.
>15. Eliminate requirement for licensed guide
>to hunt in designated wilderness.
>
>16. No baiting.

I agree with majority of your proposals but I disagree with numbers 11, 13 and 15.

11, because I feel residents should have privileges that non residents should not in their own state. The idea you've conjured up here is to cater/help to non residents from what I can understand? Charge residents more to hunt their own state and increase NR tags?? Why?

13. If some one chooses to turn back a license so be it... give the next guy in line a chance to hunt

15. State like Wyoming whom require this I agree with. It gives privileges to the residents and allows for there to be less traffic in the wilderness. While also creating business for local outfitters. (not every outfitter in the western us is doyle moss)
 
I'm with you on all but #11. A couple others could use some tweaking, but I agree in principle. Seems like nowadays everything favors the hunter and not much favors the hunted.

One question: What is overnight 24/7 monitoring of animals? How is that done? Or are you just exaggerating a bit to prove your point?
 
I'm with those above. In principal, I agree with most of what you've set out. Curious about some and you also need to consider the private lands on things like ATV's. Not sure how you'd limit those on deeded ground.

Same thing for public hunting on deeded ground if the landowner does not allow any other hunters, or gets nothing for other hunting (like family or friends). Can't really ask them to let anyone on if they have no gain from hunting; it's a private property right.

I've been thinking about this, too. All of the long-range stuff and technology bug me, too.

Not sure where the future of out sport is headed.
 
I agree with your ideas, however, I hate laws and regulations. Keep spreading the word and hopefully others with subscribe to your ethical standards. We can't/don't enforce current laws let alone a whole new list. Just my $.02-----SS
 
I think your intentions are good and I agree on some of them. On others there is too much gray area, as noted above with the ATV thing. In another example, #2, it is not uncommon for my group to have 1 or 2 tags and 6-7 guys hanging around just for the experience. My dad doesn't really hunt anymore but he likes to hang out. What happens when the warden drives up and sees all the guys and only a few tags? We're not harassing wildlife, we're just getting together for our once per year family hunt.

The fact is that ethics of the hunt have to be taught. Unfortunately, it appears a good number of hunters were never taught to refrain from behavior that is obviously unfair. All we can do is teach our kids the value of wildlife and wilderness and to respect the game we hunt. Sure, we can make a few laws, but there will always be those who test them and find ways around them.

Some laws could go a long way in tackling some of the more specific issues you mention since the ultimate goal is to settle the score between hunter and hunted. For example, making areas less accessible by vehicle can do this. I've hunted a few areas where this has been done and the experience is much better, with lower hunter numbers and more game that is not spooked by vehicles . . .
 
This is why the system isn't working. You think the way to manage is through restriction. No new laws and you could probably scrape about %98 of the existing laws off the book is the key to changing our sport for everyone. I now your intentions are good but unfortunately you have been convinced that legislating against things is how you get what you want. Don't feel bad the vast majority of Americans have been convinced that is how things function.
 
I would disagree with nearly every one of your suggestions. Like Tristate said, more government telling us what we can and can't do is not what we need. #2 is the most ridiculous of the bunch, little Timmy and Grandpa have to stay home when a guy draws a tag? Locking people out of public lands is a slippery slope!

2a0fcsk.gif
 
Agree with all.





"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
I just have one question??? Were you intoxicated or have any foreign substance in your body like crack or marijuana when you came up with some of these? Just curious. ...
While a few of them are decent ideas, more are not!
 
Let me guess, most of these things you want to get rid of or ban are things you already don't do.
You must either be a non-resident or have lots of N.R. buddies you hunt with and have a bigger income than myself.
I disagree with most of these but that shouldn't be a surprise to some.
 
rokymtnhunter I too have been hunting muleys for 45 yrs. 47 including the two yrs. I followed my dad around before I was old enough to get a tag.I can relate to what you are feeling. I have hunted all the states you listed exept MT. I also hunted a lot in CA NV and Idaho.Back when we started hunting very few guys had scopes or binos. Now look where we are today. I haven't Hunted AZ CO NV or UT LE since the points requirements started. However I have been applying and building my pts. Who would have thought 20 years ago that we may NEVER get to hunt these top areas.Even if I do draw the Strip or Henry Mtn. The Buck I want probably got whacked buy a Governers tag buyer in his extended season. I swear if I knew back then what I know now I would never have got in this points chase game. I know very well about the guides with scouts,spotters,radios chute-planes,trail cameras ect.They are dominating the top trophy units.The chances of a regular DIY guy killing a top end Buck without all that stuff is sadly very slim.Things arent likely to change because its a big money business. Thats obvious, Just read the Expo threads. Hope you young guys can learn something from these posts.
 
I myself have been hunting for 42 years and agree with some but not all of your thoughts. One point you didn't mention is the loss of access to private land due to the leasing by outfitters. Big money is taking over the hunting industry and moving it towards the European hunting model.

Big money will ultimately destroy hunting as it is now. It has already destroyed it from what it was when I was young.

I guess change is inevitable but I do feel sorry for today's younger hunters.

I almost forgot to mention that predators have had a huge negative effect as well but most biologists are in denial about that.
 
Let me add to the list, there should never be landlocked state or federal land that can only be accessed by paying someone, the government doesn't hesitate to take private property by using and abusing the eminent domain law so it should also be used to gain controlled access for the public.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-24-14 AT 01:25PM (MST)[p]+2 to #11 being funny at best. Sounds like a non-resident talking. Residents should always have the advantage to hunting thier own state. NR's should be happy they can even apply, as most states have enough resident hunters to keep herds in check.
 
1. agree
2. this is a product of the difficulty in drawing a tag but I agree it is laughable to see 6 guys hunting with one tag.
3. Where is this happening? Sounds like an outfitter problem and any enforcement would be impossible
4. agree
5. disagree, This is not a problem everywhere
6. agree
7. I would go further and say that landowner tags should only be issued to landowners that allow public access for hunting.
8. no opinion
9. if you want to increase drawing odds, we should start by limiting everyone to applying in only one or two states, but how would you enforce that? Think about if everyone quit applying in every state, the number of applicants for each hunt would drop significantly as each hunter would really have to decide what they want.
10. agree
11. strongly disagree, I believe I have more right to hunt in my home state than someone from the east or midwest.
12. agree, and no transfering of tags, otherwise someone could have non-hunting family members apply to increase his chances of getting a tag
13. disagree, but require anyone returning a tag to give up all their bonus points if they don't return it within a certain timeframe that will allow the next person in line to have sufficient time to prepare for the hunt.
14. agree, I don't like preference/bonus point systems and I don't apply in states that have them.
15. agree
16. depends on the species, deer, elk, antelope I agree no baiting. Bear baiting should continue to be allowed.
 

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