NEW EXPO TAG PROCESS

grizzly

Long Time Member
Messages
5,581
Somebody in another thread compared Expo Tags to road construction bids, a comparison with flaws, I believe, but it got me thinking...

How about UDWR issue a proposal for desired conservation projects for a given year, and the Conservation Groups give public competitive bids for the projects. The necessary tags are then auctioned or raffled by the state and the funds are used to pay for those projects.

This seems far more productive than giving groups millions of dollars in welfare tags and then hoping the public money will be used wisely and productively and for the "best use".

Grizzly
 
How would all the SFW big wigs pay for their trips to Alaska every year if they actually had give all the money from the tags to worthwhile projects?
 
Just to clarify, you're talking actual 'EXPO' tags, the ones hunters drop 5 bucks per application on, or do you mean 'Conservation' tags, that are pimped out and bidded on during the expo?

If you mean the conservation tags, I'm all for it. Matter of fact, that's been my perspective for years on those tags. Seems the DWR has the NGO's pimp out the tags, then finds projects to fund, kinda bassackwards to me.

If you mean the 5 buck application expo tags, I'ld just rather they go away completely and put back into the tag pool.
 
First off, the DWR has all ready said they would have to hire people to do what the groups do. They say it is more profitable having the groups sell the tags. It must be true as there seems each year that other states send their governors ir commission tags to the expo to be auctioned off because of the draw. Comes to mind California, Oregon, washington, Wyoming, Nebraska, Colorado, Arizona, have all sent tags to the Expo to be auctioned off in the past. If it wasn't a money maker for that state, why would they do it.
 
Thank God Idaho doesn't PIMP their tags to Utah. SFW has tried to weasel their way into Idaho for years,and so far there are enough sportsmen that have opposed it. The landowners in the legislature are the ones that want it,to be able to PIMP OUT their landowner tags.
 
I'm talking Expo Tags. Conservation Tags already have some level of oversight, though they could all be incorporated into the new system.

I'm saying the tags should be taken from the Expo and turned into the new system where the money could actually be allocated for worthwhile projects.

We all know SFW doesn't need the tags for a successful Expo as the attendants are there primarily to show support for SFW. Just ask their supporters.

Grizzly
 
>Somebody in another thread compared Expo
>Tags to road construction bids,
>a comparison with flaws, I
>believe, but it got me
>thinking...
>
>Grizzly

Sorry for the interruption, Grizz, but to clarify this statement, it wasn't me that compared Expo Tags to road construction projects. That was someone else who brought up that comparison. I compared Expo Tags to the USE of other public assets including roads.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-18 AT 11:31AM (MST)[p]>First off, the DWR has all
>ready said they would have
>to hire people to do
>what the groups do. They
>say it is more profitable
>having the groups sell the
>tags. It must be
>true as there seems each
>year that other states send
>their governors ir commission tags
>to the expo to be
>auctioned off because of the
>draw. Comes to mind
>California, Oregon, washington, Wyoming, Nebraska,
>Colorado, Arizona, have all sent
>tags to the Expo to
>be auctioned off in the
>past. If it wasn't
>a money maker for that
>state, why would they do
>it.

You can sure come up with all kinds of excuses of why the SFW needs to continue the present system they have of screwing the taxpayers out of their public trust game tags, LOL! Just because they say they would need to hire people doesn't make it true with the technology now in use. Cripes, Wyoming has a raffle tag system and all you have to do is log onto the G&F site, click on the raffle section and use your credit card to buy however many chances for whichever of the animals you want to try for. I doubt that it takes a lot of extra employees, if any, to run the program.
 
Top, you are right about technical advances but because they say they would have to hire people tp make it work correctly and they are in the business i would have a tendency to believe them. And because you do not think they would need to doesnt make them wrong.
As for Wyoming and their tags they also seem to cater to the rich over the average joe. After 8 points they said if i want to put more money down it would increase my odds of drawing. Been that way for a while. The more money you have to pay, the better your chances are to draw.
Ys poor averafe people have to wait in line behind those with more money
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-18 AT 02:59PM (MST)[p]>Top, you are right about technical
>advances but because they say
>they would have to hire
>people tp make it work
>correctly and they are in
>the business i would have
>a tendency to believe them.
> And because you do
>not think they would need
>to doesnt make them wrong.
>
> As for Wyoming
>and their tags they also
>seem to cater to the
>rich over the average joe.
> After 8 points they
>said if i want to
>put more money down it
>would increase my odds of
>drawing. Been that way
>for a while. The
>more money you have to
>pay, the better your chances
>are to draw.
> Ys poor averafe
>people have to wait in
>line behind those with more
>money

The way your DWR is in so tight with SFW and it's Board I wouldn't trust them saying or doing anything. You saying that doesn't make them any more correct that what I stated and that's a fact. Funny you diss Wyoming when it's one of the best states to hunt in out west and it doesn't cost any more money to hunt there than most western states and everyone has a significant chance at a decent tag every year in the random draws for deer, elk, an antelope. Not so in Utah! Just face it that Utah/SFW is the laughing stock of all the western states when it comes to running how tags are issued and more tags are pimped from the general public for auctions in Utah than all the other states combined and that sucks the big weenie! You just keep right on touting SFW, but all but a few of you SFW Koolaid drinkers know how screwed up your state is and none of the other states want to come close to what Utah does with it's wildlife pimping for the high rollers!
 
Topgun, permits are easier to draw in Wyoming. Their population of 580,000 compaired to 3.16 million for Utah makes it that way. Almost 400,000 people putting in for a tag. When you compare Wyoming to Utah as far as hunts go there is no comparison. In fact if you add Montana and Idaho population with Wyoming it is about what Utah has. Now tell me how Utah isnt doing as good of job as others. Kind of hard to compare.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-18 AT 04:40PM (MST)[p]>Topgun, permits are easier to
>draw in Wyoming. Their
>population of 580,000 compaired to
>3.16 million for Utah makes
>it that way. Almost
>400,000 people putting in for
>a tag. When you
>compare Wyoming to Utah as
>far as hunts go there
>is no comparison. In
>fact if you add Montana
>and Idaho population with Wyoming
>it is about what Utah
>has. Now tell me
>how Utah isnt doing as
>good of job as others.
> Kind of hard to
>compare.

There you go again trying to come up with something to justify your screwed up state! First off, let's talk about nonresident tags that are issued by the WY G&F! Wyoming allots 16% of it's bull elk tags to NRs and the total goes a lot higher when you add in all the cow tags that NRs can draw. Add that to the 20+% tags that NRs get for buck antelope and buck deer. If I wanted to each year I could draw those along with up to 2 cow elk, 4 doe antelope, and 4 doe deer, as well as whitetail deer tags that are separate from the mulie tags and Utah can't compare to what Wyoming issues to NRs. How many animals could I apply for and legally take in Utah every year compared to Wyoming? I eagerly await your answer on that question because I'll bet it will be a dousy!
 
So top they issue more tags. Not sure what that proves other than they have a lot more land undeveloped than Utah. More space for more animals. Majes sense they have more animals.
I am glad you think Utah is screwed up so you will not come here. People like you who do not care about common sense with Utah having almost as many applicants for hunts as Wyoming has people. No excuses. If the people are trying to hunt Utah it is going to be much harder to draw a tag. With all the open space Wyoming has they could come up with much more tags for non residents. But then again i forget you know it all.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-02-18 AT 08:32AM (MST)[p]>So top they issue more tags.
> Not sure what that
>proves other than they have
>a lot more land undeveloped
>than Utah. More space
>for more animals. Majes
>sense they have more animals.
>
> I am glad you
>think Utah is screwed up
>so you will not come
>here. People like you who
>do not care about common
>sense with Utah having almost
>as many applicants for hunts
>as Wyoming has people.
>No excuses. If the
>people are trying to hunt
>Utah it is going to
>be much harder to draw
>a tag. With all
>the open space Wyoming has
>they could come up with
>much more tags for non
>residents. But then again
>i forget you know it
>all.

You have all the answers all the time, LOL, and yet you keep saying I know it all! What I do know like I've said before is that Utah is the laughing stock of all the western states and it's all because of DP and the SFW taking over and putting the common man under the bus. No other state wants to come close to the way Utah runs it's wildlife programs and tags and that's a fact! I'm surprised with all of your knowledge and know how that you keep coming up with that you aren't the head of SFW or Chairman of the Board or maybe even DWR Director!
 
Top come back down to earth and have a conversation. Wyoming has much more undeveloped land leaving more room for wildlife. They have about 1 sixth the people thus lots more tags for non residences. You dont think that makes
The reason i know us i pay attention to the numbers. Easy research. Then i put 2 and 2 coming up with 4. Tell me where i am wrong. You obviously do not know what is going on other than you are upset at SFW. They are here to stay. No Top SFW is not throwing anyone under the bus but they are making hunting as good as possible in Utah
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-02-18 AT 02:27PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-02-18 AT 02:25?PM (MST)

Birdman

?They are not throwing anyone under the bus but they are making hunting as good as possible?

Stil a bad return on the investment at the expense of.......throwing the average joe hunter under the bus.

That's right, birdman paints an ugly picture for wildlife in Utah had SFW not come and save the day.
Give me a break.

Reality is that if we didn't have SFW robbing the public for the last decade, we really don't know how much worse or better it would be.

Quit pretending that you do know



"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt
 
Billy, Have no idea how it would be if SFW didnt step up to the plate. What i do know is hunting, especially mule deer was tanked and the division its self said deer were not important but elk were. As i see with all the transplants that have taken place adding more hunting opportunity for hunters to draw a tag has to be positive. Its a fact that lots of transplants have been done because of the conservation tags than there wojld have without the moneys. Dont care if you believe it or not it is true and it has produced more hunts for the average joe.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-02-18 AT 04:10PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-02-18 AT 04:09?PM (MST)

You?ve been played birdman.
Still a bad return regardless. Although you, Muley73, the Dwr and DP will never admit it.
Just a big scam and they are laughing all the way to the bank.

Got my GS deer tag in the mail. I'll be hunting a unit that SFW hasn't done squat for. Even with all those millions! Found a toad too!Who would have known? Deer numbers there look like they did for the last 10 years. I wouldn't have thought I'd see some mature mule deer without the saving graces of SFW!
Still got about 30 more years to draw my premium tag though. Just an average joe accepting that the line in front me maybe in sight. Maybe soon SFW will do enough work in Utah to get some hunts for unicorns. Might be possible with the kind of work they do. Don?t you think?
I'd like to hunt unicorns.

"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt
 
Glad you think so billy. In the mean time i will continue to be played. I know what goes on. Been there seen it and glad to be a part of it. Glad you hoot a permit and found a toad. Good luck on the hunt. In the mean time i will continue to believe in what SFW is doing and i will continue to know the truth.
 
>Top you can shoot cows and
>does in Utah also but
>you can't kill a 400
>inch bull in Wyoming !
>


That's pure BS because a couple years ago when I was helping a guy in the Big Horns of Wyoming that had a bull tag if I'd have had a tag one night while I was scouting for him I guarantee a 400+" bull would have bit the dust!
 
400 inch bulls are rare but they do exist in more than Utah. I seen a bull killed in Nebraska over 400. The bighorns have some hugh bulls as does Montana. New Mexico has big elk.
 
That's why the wildlife in other states are struggling and/or non existent 90% of the Tag money is allocated to wildlife conservation. If you don't believe it's just look at the animals that have come out of Utah over the last 10 years- if we had to leave wildlife management, conservation and funding up to the state it would be a wreck like all the other states in the west. Like it or not- those tags raise funds that allows the state to put more resources into the wildlife population.
 
Great system- kill 2 cows, 4 does and 4 doe antelope- see how long that lasts- kill all the does- that's management their god forbid they have any offspring to keep the populations on the rise. Wow! Seems like you are one for you and all for you!
 
It's easy to blame SFW for all your hate but look at what's transpired in Utah over the last 20 yrs- SFW does get theirs but the state gets 90% and has used that money to put back into Utah Wildlife and conservation programs- look at the bucks and bulls that have come out of this state in the last 20yrs. You can not deny that the monies raised has not contributed to a prime hunting destination state for every big game hunter. The state was broke, Wildlife were screwed and because of this program and the blood, sweat and tears of thousands and thousands of volunteers doing wildlife service projects- look what's its become. Ya it did come at a price and people made money off the program. Welcome to earth. If you don't think this exists in every market, in every industry your smoking dope. SFW, RMEF,MDF the state all made theirs but there is no doubt that the results have been phenomenal. It's a very low percentage of tags that came out of the tag pool. I believe it's under 2% but look at the opportunity every hunter has. Utah has become one of the premier destination states for everyone to hunt. It was not by accident. It was though a plan that would make it possible because before this system - Utah?s was just another Wyoming, Idaho, Nevada, Colorado and New Mexico- what does Wy have? Like 20 commissioner tags they sell to the highest bidder. And how?s that any different?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-04-18 AT 08:26AM (MST)[p]>Great system- kill 2 cows, 4
>does and 4 doe antelope-
>see how long that lasts-
>kill all the does- that's
>management their god forbid they
>have any offspring to keep
>the populations on the rise.
>Wow! Seems like you are
>one for you and all
>for you!

You obviously know nothing about game biology and keeping herds in balance with that absolutely ignorant rant! The WY G&F has as good, if not better, game management than any of the western states. The reason those numbers I referenced are available are because of proper management and you can't go all over the state to kill that many critters in a season. G&F determines where there are excess numbers of females that need to be taken out of the herd to keep it in balance with the environment. In areas where the balance is there there are few, if any, tags for females issued. Please do some reading on what you are ranting about because you are so far off in your rant in that post that it's ludicrous!
 
>That's why the wildlife in other
>states are struggling and/or non
>existent 90% of the Tag
>money is allocated to wildlife
>conservation. If you don't believe
>it's just look at the
>animals that have come out
>of Utah over the last
>10 years- if we had
>to leave wildlife management, conservation
>and funding up to the
>state it would be a
>wreck like all the other
>states in the west. Like
>it or not- those tags
>raise funds that allows the
>state to put more resources
>into the wildlife population.


This post of yours makes absolutely no sense at all just like your other one. Please go back to the drawing board and read up on stuff before you make any more posts about wildlife conservation.
 
>It's easy to blame SFW for
>all your hate but look
>at what's transpired in Utah
>over the last 20 yrs-
>SFW does get theirs but
>the state gets 90% and
>has used that money to
>put back into Utah Wildlife
>and conservation programs- look at
>the bucks and bulls that
>have come out of this
>state in the last 20yrs.
>You can not deny that
>the monies raised has not
>contributed to a prime hunting
>destination state for every big
>game hunter. The state was
>broke, Wildlife were screwed and
>because of this program and
>the blood, sweat and tears
>of thousands and thousands of
>volunteers doing wildlife service projects-
>look what's its become. Ya
>it did come at a
>price and people made money
>off the program. Welcome to
>earth. If you don't think
>this exists in every market,
>in every industry your smoking
>dope. SFW, RMEF,MDF the state
>all made theirs but there
>is no doubt that the
>results have been phenomenal. It's
>a very low percentage of
>tags that came out of
>the tag pool. I believe
>it's under 2% but look
>at the opportunity every hunter
>has. Utah has become one
>of the premier destination states
>for everyone to hunt. It
>was not by accident. It
>was though a plan that
>would make it possible because
>before this system - Utah?s
>was just another Wyoming, Idaho,
>Nevada, Colorado and New Mexico-
>what does Wy have? Like
>20 commissioner tags they sell
>to the highest bidder. And
>how?s that any different?

It's very obvious you live in Utah and are a clone of DP and/or the Birdman with all this baloney you're posting, LOL! The only way most will hunt in Utah in any of the premier units is to wait for maybe a OIL tag while the high rollers can cut to the front of the line and hunt them often by buying those auction tags. If Utah is so great in the way it manages big game, please tell me and the rest of the MM members why all the other states are staying as far away from the Utah model of doing things as they can?! You referred to the auction tags which do have pretty good oversight, but those aren't the tags that most people have the huge problem with other than the auction tags are taken from the premier units and the average guy loses his chance at them. It's the raffle tags that SFW gets a huge chunk of each $5 with no transparency as to where all that profit goes! It was even worse a few years ago when they weren't giving back anything and even now there is little transparency the way it's set up for what they do give back. Nope, just keep drinking that SFW Koolaid because more and more of the average guys in Utah are wising up to the fact that DP set up the SFW to shaft the majority and that's completely opposite of the NAM that DP himself even says should be scrapped in North America! You are also wrong about Wyoming in that some of the tags you mentioned go to raffles where everyone has a chance at them and not just the rich.
 
Shoot, I am boycotting Utah until Mike Lee has gone away and I don't mean to the Court.

Hasbean
 
It us comical to listen to people talk about what goes on in wildlife management. Topgun came closr but still a little more to it. Who regulates how many animals we can have on a mountain. Its not the DWR.
 
>I'm talking Expo Tags. Conservation Tags
>already have some level of
>oversight, though they could all
>be incorporated into the new
>system.
>
>I'm saying the tags should be
>taken from the Expo and
>turned into the new system
>where the money could actually
>be allocated for worthwhile projects.
>
>
>We all know SFW doesn't need
>the tags for a successful
>Expo as the attendants are
>there primarily to show support
>for SFW. Just ask their
>supporters.
>
>Grizzly

I heard it was John Baird smooooth auctioneering
From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
?Who regulates how many animals we can have on a mountain.? -Birdman

Cattlemen.

That's an easy answer.
 
The state legislature. And at the meetings on it there is SFW and the cattlemen fighting agianst each other. No sportsmen show up. Now sportsmen seem to want to get in volved. Just SFW trying to increase herds. Your right vanilla its the cattlemen who have the numbers at the meetings. DWR can only go buy the law.
 
That does not seem to be the way elk numbers were set. I would think the rest of the big game is similar to this process also. Looks like a lot more organization involved than just the state legislator. They are only one of 20 groups and only one person from SFW. Looks like a lot of groups other than SFW were involved. But this coming right from the DWR it could be fake news. Or maybe none of the other groups showed up and SFW saved the day again.

UTAH DIVISION OF WILDLIFE RESOURCES
STATEWIDE MANAGEMENT PLAN FOR ELK
I. PURPOSE OF THE PLAN
A. General
The statewide elk management plan provides overall guidance and direction for Utah?s elk
management program. This plan briefly describes general information on elk natural history,
management, habitat, and population status. This statewide elk management plan was revised by
a 20 person advisory committee. The committee was diverse and had representation from: the
Utah Wildlife Board, 5 Regional Advisory Councils, Brigham Young University, Rocky
Mountain Elk Foundation, Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife, Utah Bowman?s Association, US
Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, Utah Farm Bureau, Cooperative Wildlife
Management Unit Association, Utah Guides and Outfitters, Utah State Legislature, private
landowners, livestock permittees, public at large, and Utah Division of Wildlife Resources
(UDWR). This group met five times from June 2 to August 11, 2015. The committee identified
components of the last elk plan that were working well and areas that could be improved upon,
and then developed goals, objectives, and strategies to address those management issues.
B. Dates Covered
The elk plan was approved by the Wildlife Board on December 2, 2015 and will be in effect until
December 2022.
I
 
It's not the state legislature. That is incorrect.

But the cattlemen do control the numbers, for sure.
 
Will vanilla, who is it. I know the dwr sets the management plans by several means but the state legeslators say how many elk we can have in the srate. Therr is a certain amount of elk that can be on each unit. When that number succeeds the elk allowed they must be thinned out. Who makes the laws in the state. The dwr just enforces them. Working groups determine what can take place within the law. If im wrong, please correct me.
 
The only way the legislature makes rules or tells anyone anything is in Utah Code. They have no other way or mechanism of doing so. Please point the code section that says the number of elk that can be in the state or on any given unit:

https://le.utah.gov/xcode/code.html

I'll be patient.
 
I dont know where it is but when the push to get more slk on a unit the division has no say. It has been pushed and pushed to raise the limit of elk we can have and everyone points back to the state law makers. I am sure it has something to do with cattlemen but as long as i have been involved the issue of how many elk we can have has nothing to do with the state. When ask at racs about increasing elk the division says they have to obey the law. When SFW was adk to put more waterers on the fish lake SFW's answer was let us raise the number of elk on the mountain ane we will. Answer was no elk increase.
 
Birdman is obviously way over his head on this one Vanilla, so don't hold your breath waiting for him to tell you where the Legislature has the authority he claims. It's like everything else he posts saying that you just have to believe him because he knows he's right!
 
Your right top. No questions ask. Like i said, the DWR has not the say as to how many elk on a unit but are charged in inforcing the nimbers. Thats a fact. The dwr will tell you that The law states how many animals on a unit. So please since i am wrong according to vanilla and top, please tell me. You all tell me i am full of it but you cant say who who has the say.
 
>I dont know where it is
>but when the push to
>get more slk on a
>unit the division has no
>say. It has been
>pushed and pushed to raise
>the limit of elk we
>can have and everyone points
>back to the state law
>makers. I am sure
>it has something to do
>with cattlemen but as long
>as i have been involved
>the issue of how many
>elk we can have has
>nothing to do with the
>state. When ask at
>racs about increasing elk the
>division says they have to
>obey the law. When SFW
>was adk to put more
>waterers on the fish lake
>SFW's answer was let us
>raise the number of elk
>on the mountain ane we
>will. Answer was no
>elk increase.

Where do you come up with all this stuff?
 
Simple elk. Next time your at a big game rac take time t o ask about increasing elk on a unit. I do because i get emails asking me to. I go by ehat the answers are agg the racs.
 
Elk, you know as well as i do that the dwr is under law as to how many elk can be on a unit. Now i am willing to say i am wrong if you , vanilla, ir top can tell me what law that they have to follow if im wrong as to who makes the law. Elk numbers must be kept in appliance with the a law as the dwr states thats what determine the cow tags. Dont tell me im full of it, tell my why im wrong
 
>Your right top. No questions ask.
> Like i said, the
>DWR has not the say
>as to how many elk
>on a unit but are
>charged in inforcing the nimbers.
> Thats a fact.
>The dwr will tell you
>that The law states how
>many animals on a unit.
> So please since i
>am wrong according to vanilla
>and top, please tell me.
> You all tell me
>i am full of it
>but you cant say who
>who has the say.

Utah Code 23-14-1-(2)(a):
Subject to the broad policymaking authority of the Wildlife Board, the Division of Wildlife Resources shall protect, propagate, manage, conserve, and distribute protected wildlife throughout the state.

23-14-3.
(1) The Division of Wildlife Resources may determine the facts relevant to the wildlife resources of this state.
(2)(a) Upon a determination of these facts, the Wildlife Board shall establish the policies best designed to accomplish the purposes and fulfill the intent of all laws pertaining to wildlife and the preservation, protection, conservation, perpetuation, introduction and management of wildlife.
(b) In establishing policy, the Wildlife Board shall:
(i) recognize that wildlife and its habitat are an essential part of a healthy, productive environment;
(ii) recognize the impact of wildlife on man, his economic activities, private property rights, and local economics;
(iii) seek to balance the habitat requirements of wildlife with the social and economic activities of man;
(iv) recognize the social and economics values of wildlife, including fishing, hunting, and other uses; and
(v) seek to maintain wildlife on a sustainable basis.

So, who has the final say? THE WILDLIFE BOARD.

The DWR, the RAC's, the general public, sportsmens groups, cattlemen, non-consumers, BLM, NFS, animal rights groups, etc. can have their say, but the WILDLIFE BOARD controls the numbers.
 
Bird- You were the one that made the claim about the state legislature setting the numbers. In every venue I'm familiar with, the person making an assertion carries the burden to prove what they are saying is true, not the other way around. Can you imagine how it would be if the prosecution only had to make a claim that someone committed a crime, and then produce zero evidence of it, but the burden fell on the defendant to prove his innocence? Or if someone could sue you for millions on a claim and have to produce no evidence, but you have to prove a negative to avoid being held liable? That's what you done here, Bird. You?ve made a claim (a baseless claim, to boot), and now just say everyone else has to prove the negative or else you're correct. If that is the world you live in or how you operate, then your world is serious whacked out. Because the rest of the civilized world does not operate that way.

I will help you out though, because I think factual information is more important than petty squabbling. The legislature absolutely has the authority to do what Birdman is saying they do, they just don't do it. There is no law on the books saying what he says is there. That is a fact, not my opinion. It doesn't exist in state code. They give the authority to the wildlife board to set herd objectives. The elk plan is what they follow. If you want higher herd numbers, change the objectives in the statewide elk plan.

Good luck, because the cattlemen run the show. Which brings me back to my first post in this thread when you asked who sets the numbers. Again, that's easy: the cattlemen.
 
So vanilla you are right. I did some research and admit i was wrong. The state legislation gave a code to the division to write a plan with sportsmen, cattlemen, forest service, and blm among some others to right a plan for managing elk. After the plan was written and passed by the wildlife board it basically becomes law. It can not be changed except by all the groups in agreement. Thus it basically becomes law as state code says it can not be changed except by all groups. Thus the dwr must manage within the numbers set by the management plan.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-18 AT 07:50AM (MST)[p]I posted that earlier about the management plan controlling it, all you had to do is read it. Here is the section that deals with elk numbers in the plan. Read A(a)

VI. STATEWIDE MANAGEMENT GOALS AND OBJECTIVES
A. Population Management Goal: Improve management of Utah?s elk populations.
Population Objective 1: Maintain healthy elk populations at biologically and socially
sustainable levels.
Note: The statewide population objective is the sum of objectives contained in unit plans.
Strategies:
A. Elk Population Objectives
a) Set population objectives and manage elk populations at appropriate spatial scales
that account for migration patterns.
b) Establish local advisory committees to review individual herd unit management plans
when considering a change (increase or decrease) in the herd size objective.
i) Committees will be established following approval of the statewide elk plan.
ii) Committees will consist of the UDWR unit biologist and regional wildlife
manager as facilitators, two local sportsman?s representatives, and one
representative from each of the following (if applicable): Farm Bureau,
Cattlemen?s Association, Wool Growers Association, Bureau of Land
Management, USDA Forest Service, local elected official, RAC member, CWMU
Association, Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife, Mule Deer Foundation, Rocky
Mountain Elk Foundation, tribal representative, local land owner or land owner
association representative and other affected stakeholders. Recommendations
from these committees will be reviewed by UDWR and presented to the Regional
Advisory Councils and Wildlife Board for public input and approval.
iii) Committees shall be provided with the results of habitat projects completed in the
previous five years, planned projects for the next three years, UDWR range trend
data, and any other applicable information.
c) On units where population decreases are necessary, UDWR will recommend shortterm
population objectives in unit management plans or increases in antlerless elk
permits.
B. Populati
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-18 AT 11:34AM (MST)[p]Glad to read that Birdman has finally admitted that he was wrong about something! This whole deal where he made the statement and then told us to go find something to show that's he's wrong is the same way he operates when we talk about SFW. We tell him SFW lacks transparency in not opening the books to show they are doing what they are supposed to with the millions of dollars they take in every year. Then he comes back and tells us to prove it because he knows SFW higher ups would never do anything wrong. However, the books stay closed and the only way you can see how screwed up they are is to look at their tax filings. The filings are a jumbled up mess every year, but they pass the IRS requirements even though they aren't transparent so all of the taxpayers know EXACTLY where all the money goes for what they take out of the public trust (tags)!
 
>So tell me top, where
>is the money going

Same ole same ole type of response where we're supposed to prove stuff instead of SFW just opening their books. There is only one reason they won't and it's because money is going where it shouldn't. It's that simple man! You are a nice guy, but are so dang naive that it's no wonder you think DP and SFW are the Savior of Utah, LOL! Check the SFW tax returns and there are so many lines on there where money is probably being laundered that it's ridiculous! Have you made it up to AK yet to hunt sheep at that operation they own up there? DP and John Bair have and I'll bet they didn't pay a cent for their trips and it's probably covered up so well that it could never be proved! How about money that probably gets laundered through their BGF organization that is also one big scam and way to launder money? Their books are probably as screwed up as those of SFW and until both organization's books are opened for public scrutiny there will be negative feeling towards them by the vast majority that is gaining more people every day. Please don't come back with a bunch of BS like you guys always do about all the Banquets selling out and the EXPO that was one big boondoggle on the last bid proceedings being so big and bringing in so many people! You do good work at the grounds root level, but the upper echelon are a bunch of crooks that learned well from the founder IMHO!
 
>So vanilla you are right.
>I did some research and
>admit i was wrong.
>The state legislation gave a
>code to the division to
>write a plan with sportsmen,
>cattlemen, forest service, and blm
>among some others to right
>a plan for managing elk.
> After the plan was
>written and passed by the
>wildlife board it basically becomes
>law. It can not
>be changed except by all
>the groups in agreement.
>Thus it basically becomes law
>as state code says it
>can not be changed except
>by all groups. Thus
>the dwr must manage within
>the numbers set by the
>management plan.

Thanks!
 
Top. When i was wrong i admited it. Now admit you are wrong. SFW owns a hunting camp in Btitush Columbia. It was a gift. Thats a fact. John Bair has never hunted there. Your statement he has came from mm people that are guessing as you are. John hunted in Alaska for his sheep. Nice try. GET YOU FACTS RIGHT
 
Just for your info topgun. I am not naive as to what goes on in SFW. YOU ARE. You don't know anything about how it all works. I have worked with Troy on many projects and am in the office at times to do things. I have hunted with Don Pray several times. Yes on these hunts I have paid my own way. You have listened to others on mm who think they have the know. They don't. I don't know how many times Don has hunted arctic red. I don't know who has paid for it. I do know it is not for his own pleasure. Don has been a business man right out of college. He owned a very big engineering co. After starting SFW he sold it to promote SFW and hunting in Utah. Don is paid a fee to lobby and raise money for SFW. He is very good at it. He dud not get rich off of SFW. SFW does not hand him money for his hunts.
SFW is run by a board of hunters who are business men. They know business. They hired Troy Justinsen as president to run day to day affairs. Troy is honest as they come.
Do I know what goes on with SFW? I think so. I am on staff and work in changing and promoting fishing and some hunting.
As far as the tax returns go. They must be correct or SFW controls the IRS. if there is dishonesty going on the IRS have not caught it. You knowing all the hidden secrets that show in the tax return need to get a hold of the IRS and get it taken care of.
 
This IRS you are so quick to use as a defense is the same one of Lois Lerner and the same one that said the Clinton Foundation is non-profit and on the up-and-up. You probably should rethink your argument. Unbelievable.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------
"This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy." -Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as told to KUTV

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
True grid but they are the ones that make the rule. It's true SFW does not break out all the paper and pens supplies for the office individually like ref but there is no need for that.
 
Lots of folks on both sides of the SFW issue make unsupported and outlandish statements. It is always better to stick to the facts.

Here is an undisputed fact: Don Peay and others from SFW promised sportsmen a ?full accounting? of the money raised from the Expo tags. See quotes below. After they received the tags, however, SFW/MDF have taken in over $10 million that has not been accounted for. Let Birdman try to explain that one away. Ready, set, go . . .

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-18 AT 07:21PM (MST)[p]Birdman---I apologize because I was wrong when I said AK. However, since you appear to claim you're the expert on all things SFW please know that you were also wrong when you stated Artic Red is in British Columbia. FYI it's actually in the Northwest Territories west of Norman Wells! Your comments about the IRS are also way off because whomever does the tax returns for SFW knows exactly what they can get away with when they lump things together to cover up exactly where the money is going. You are correct though on your comments about DP. The dude is definitely an expert at what he does even though it's not for the good of the Utah taxpayers while he's still making a fortune off of SFW even though he is supposedly not involved in their every day affairs.
 
Hawk, i have not seen the qoute you always talk about. I attended some of the racs and do not recall. Without seeing the quote i dont kno if it is taken out of text or not. Therefore i dont know if can comment on it.
Top your right on Artic Red. My point was it is not Alaska and that was where John Bair had his hunt he paid for. It was cheaper as someone backed out so it was cheaper. I have known John long time and do not recall him ever going to Atric Red. As far as Don Peay or any other getting paid by hidden funds you are way out in left field. I am sure SFW has a good accountant as most businesses want the best. Do i think anything crooked goes on. Absolutely not. Being on staff gives me some knowledge as what goes on. I see lots first hand. Being you live a few miles away and most your knowledge comes from mm where many still thinkJohn Bair hunted Artic Red your knowledge needs some updating. Not from me as you would not believe me but a little research would not hurt.
 
The quotes are right there for you to read in black and white. They are not taken out of context. Both statements were made in response to sportsmen expressing concern about how the money from the Expo tags would be used and accounted for. Pretty straight forward.

If it would be helpful, I am more than happy to send you links again. One statement comes directly from the WB board minutes and the other statement come directly from a Q&A post that DP put up on mm.com. Once again, both of these statements were made by DP on behalf of SFW in response to concerns expressed by sportsmen. Once SFW got the Expo tags, however, they turned their backs on those commitments and have never looked back.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
Will i dont remember him making them. If i come accross them i will read them. Until then i dont know if they were taken out of text or not. You say they are not but i dont know. I guess its kind of like you. You dont believe what i say, i dont know w hat your saying is true
 
>Will i dont remember him making
>them. If i come
>accross them i will read
>them. Until then i
>dont know if they were
>taken out of text or
>not. You say they
>are not but i dont
>know. I guess its
>kind of like you.
>You dont believe what i
>say, i dont know w
>hat your saying is true
>


Is this guy for real?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-16-18 AT 11:00AM (MST)[p]>>Will i dont remember him making
>>them. If i come
>>accross them i will read
>>them. Until then i
>>dont know if they were
>>taken out of text or
>>not. You say they
>>are not but i dont
>>know. I guess its
>>kind of like you.
>>You dont believe what i
>>say, i dont know w
>>hat your saying is true
>>
>
>
>Is this guy for real?

***Unfortunately yes and he works for SFW, LOL! How in the heck can you say that either of those exact quotes could be taken out of context?! They are exact quotes that Peay made and Hawkeye has told him exactly where they are and he says MAYBE he'll try to look them up, LOL! This BS Birdman keeps spouting is getting old and is a dang joke! It's surprising a higher up in SFW hasn't told him to shut the heck up because he's making a fool of himself every time he makes a post on this site regarding SFW!
 
I see John Blair was made VP earlier this month for SFW. There is a $100,000+ a year salary to pay him back for all his support of SFW and padding their pockets giving them public permits to sell all the years he was on the WB. It makes you wonder if he got some of the $1,000,000 a year they took for convention permits under the table.
 
>I see John Blair was made
>VP earlier this month for
>SFW. There is a
>$100,000+ a year salary to
>pay him back for all
>his support of SFW and
>padding their pockets giving them
>public permits to sell
>all the years he was
>on the WB. It makes
>you wonder if he got
>some of the $1,000,000 a
>year they took for convention
>permits under the table.

Naw, there's no hankie pankie going on with SFW! Just ask Birdman, as he knows all of the higher up people, including their head lobbyist DP and none would cheat in any way, shape, or form, LOL! What a friggin joke! There's another 100 grand down the hole that could have gone to wildlife and habitat management and instead it goes to an auctioneer that probably makes that much more for working the auction at the EXPO!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-16-18 AT 02:18PM (MST)[p]First topgun, i dont work for SFW but i do volunteer for them. I know John Bair was made vice but he has a full time job with uvu and i dont know uf he gets paid or not. Again top you are quoting others on mm who guess at what they knoiw about SFW. I have not gon back 14 years on the recordings if the wildlife board or the racs. Uf it was said then i would probably remember cause at that time i was agianst SFW. I didnt know how it worked and when i found out I joined them. But topgun. You seem to know everything when in reality you speak on tghings you hear that are not correct. Just like quoting the name John Blair. At least get the name straight. Difference between you and me is i may not always be right and will admit but i do try to get my knowledge first hand instead of taking people on mm who guess at stuff as fact.
 
Do you consider this firsthand knowledge or "people on mm who guess at stuff as fact"?

But we're supposed to take your word for it, right?

_________________________________________

FY 2011 and FY 2012 Wolf Management Grants Spending Breakdown.

Grant funds were primarily given as consulting fees to the SFW attorney who also formed BGF.

For the fiscal year 2013 contract, BGF reported that about two-thirds of the state funding was paid to the BGF director?s private business and reported as his consulting fees.

The upfront payment, lack of accounting review, and lack of a current-year plan leads us to believe that the contract lacks sufficient safeguards.



This comingling of state and private funds could be an issue if BGF, using state funds appropriated to a state agency for a purpose delineated in state statute, is viewed as an extension of a state agency. Utah Code 63J-1-210 does not allow state funds to be used by a state agency to lobby the State Legislature.[I/] With comingling, we cannot ensure that state funds were used appropriately.

SOURCE: https://le.utah.gov/audit/13_11rpt.pdf

Grizzly
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-16-18 AT 03:50PM (MST)[p]>First topgun, i dont work
>for SFW but i do
>volunteer for them. I
>know John Bair was made
>vice but he has a
>full time job with uvu
>and i dont know uf
>he gets paid or not.
> Again top you are
>quoting others on mm who
>guess at what they knoiw
>about SFW. I have
>not gon back 14 years
>on the recordings if the
>wildlife board or the racs.
> Uf it was said
>then i would probably remember
>cause at that time i
>was agianst SFW. I didnt
>know how it worked and
>when i found out I
>joined them. But topgun.
>You seem to know
>everything when in reality you
>speak on tghings you hear
>that are not correct.
>Just like quoting the name
>John Blair. At least
>get the name straight.
>Difference between you and me
>is i may not always
>be right and will admit
>but i do try to
>get my knowledge first hand
>instead of taking people on
>mm who guess at stuff
>as fact.


Make up your mind man! In post #58 you stated you were on the SFW staff. Now you say you are just a volunteer. You might want to look at the SFW Home Page since unless your name isn't Ken Strong you're listed under staff as the Fishing Coordinator!!! If you don't even know what your level or position is with the organization how in the heck should we even begin to believe that you know absolutely everything there is to know about SFW and how everything is on the up and up?

PS: I know the guy's name is John Bair and I was not the one that spelled it Blair and I did not quote the guy that did and we all know who he meant. You are the last friggin person to be correcting anyone about spelling, punctuation, or using the English language properly since every post you make is all screwed up, so don't tell other people their problems until you are perfect and, Sir, you are far from it in all three things I mentioned!
 
Your right top gun. Like some others I am on staff. That doesnt mean i get paid. I volunteer my time. Many people volunteer time that are key people. In key positions. We know what goes on and are willing to do things for nothing if it furthers the good SFW is doing. Like I said top gun. SFW is not a cash cow for people like you say it is. It is a group of people working hard to make hunting better in Utah for all hunters. We know where the money goes and all the good it does. Goes back on the ground. You can assume what you want. Your good at that.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-16-18 AT 04:09PM (MST)[p]>Your right top gun. Like
>some others I am on
>staff. That doesnt mean
>i get paid. I
>volunteer my time. Many
>people volunteer time that are
>key people. In key positions.
> We know what goes
>on and are willing to
>do things for nothing if
>it furthers the good SFW
>is doing. Like I
>said top gun. SFW
>is not a cash cow
>for people like you say
>it is. It is
>a group of people working
>hard to make hunting better
>in Utah for all hunters.
> We know where the
>money goes and all the
>good it does. Goes
>back on the ground.
>You can assume what you
>want. Your good at
>that.

You are so friggin funny I almost spit pop on my computer screen, LOL! Did you see anywhere that I stated you got paid? I said you were shown as on staff and normally one would think that means it's a paid position, but we'll take your word you're not getting a check. However, how in the holy heck do you think and say you know about what money comes in and where it goes? You are probably good at what you do, but let's get real here! In the face of things you're just a trusting peon that says everything is on the up and up when you have no more idea what money comes in and where it goes that I do for Pete's sake! Get the organization to open the books and let the taxpayers see the transparency that DP stated at least twice would be done to show where that 10 million that Hawkeye spoke about went!
 
Will topgun, i know you will never believe me but I am much more involved than you will ever know. I attend many of the meetings as I can at the office. I am very busy working with the DWR on issues and report on where money could be spent. I know you know everything but you have no idea as of my volunteer work and what I can do. Yes I see much as to where the money goes. I don't expect you or others to believe me.
The next thing I am waiting for is for top to tell me how much my net worth is and what property I own and where. Maybe you top can enlighten me in case I have forgot where some of it is. My CPA takes care of things so maybe to can enlighten me of what I have forgotten.
The truth top gun is you don't know ##### about SFW, how they work and what they do. You pretend you do.
 
Birdman-

I know that you won't go out of your way to read facts so I will do the work for you, again. Here is a link to the thread from this very website that is entitled, "The BIG Expo. -- Questions & Answers":

http://www.monstermuleys.info/cgi-b...rumID5&mark=8487&az=next_topic&archive=yes#12

You will notice that as the thread progressed, Don Peay ("dkpeay" here on mm.com) was encouraging sportsmen to post their questions and concerns about the Expo tags so that he could address the issues.

In Post #12, silentstalker asked Don Peay the following questions: "I would like to know how much of this revenue will go to wildlife. How much of it go towards paying for this convention?

In Post #15, Don responded as follows: "There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent. the three groups are excited to get every sportsmen invovled in funding some great wildlife land acquisiton projects, transplanting new herds. etc."

I hope that is clear enough for you Birdman. You will notice that Don Peay promised a "full accounting" in response to concerns about how much of the money would actually benefit wildlife. Now that I have shared the quote with you, please explain to me and everyone else why SFW never followed through with the "full accounting of how the application fees were spent" as promised?

If it would be helpful, I can also post the minutes from the WB meeting where Don stated that "It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? But I am sure that you have already reviewed those minutes since you attend all meetings and know so much more than us knuckleheads on mm "who guess at stuff as fact."

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
Yes Hawkeye, I read the full account of the mm tabs that were on there. In 14 I see where Don said the money will be accounted for. I did not see that it would be posted. I am sure it is accounted for on the files of SFW. No where did he say the books will be open for you or others to see. If I'm not mistaken you were offered to see the books but turned it down. I do knot know of a business that will open there books to whom ever wants to see it. If you were in charge of something like this are you telling me you would open your books to anyone? Now I read what Don said and I think it has been done. The funds were recorded as Don said.
 
I give up, as it's not worth my time to continue listening to the bird chit Birdman keeps putting out!
 
It was me that spelled his name wrong and you knew damn well who I was talking about. Like topgun said it takes two or three readings on a lot of your post just trying to figure out what the hell you are trying to say. So before you jump on me for the misspelling of someones name you need to clean up your own posts.

And don't talk about others making stuff up either. Did you not say that many times the legislature would meet and SFW was the only ones there (and you said it like you were there, you said it as if it were a fact) and then admitted you did not know what you were talking about as to who sets the elk population objectives that are allowed. Please explain how this could happen if the legislature does not set the population objective. The only way I could see it happening would be SFW was having a little back room meeting trying to get more of the public tags to sell to pad their private bank accounts or maybe change the rules on bidding for the expo!!! Think, huh maybe ya think!!!
 
Good for you topgun. Since you really have no idea how it all works, though you think you do, it will be good you stop spaying your inaccurate thoughts.
Coyote, dont think i said legislative meetings but i did say WLB, RAC, and government meetings held to deal with fishing, wildlife. Yes i was there
 
>Good for you topgun. Since
>you really have no idea
>how it all works, though
>you think you do, it
>will be good you stop
>spaying your inaccurate thoughts.
> Coyote, dont think
>i said legislative meetings but
>i did say WLB, RAC,
>and government meetings held to
>deal with fishing, wildlife.
> Yes i was there
>

Your reading comprehension sucks as bad as your posts to me, LOL! I said I was done listening to your BS, not that I wouldn't continue to post just like everyone else that wants SFW to clean up their act and tell us where all the money that comes from the public trust (tags) goes. That is exactly why SFW should open their books, unlike other businesses you mentioned when posting to Hawkeye that other businesses don't do it. Other business aren't raping the taxpayers of their tags either and don't need to open their books to the public. Sorry, but your posts are so stupid and unreal that I have to believe that your IQ is either lacking or you're covering up stuff you know is not honest that's going on at SFW! I think it's probably the former and hopefully not the latter!
 
?Did you not say that many times the legislature would meet and SFW was the only ones there (and you said it like you were there, you said it as if it were a fact) and then admitted you did not know what you were talking about as to who sets the elk population objectives that are allowed. Please explain how this could happen if the legislature does not set the population objective. The only way I could see it happening would be SFW was having a little back room meeting trying to get more of the public tags to sell to pad their private bank accounts or maybe change the rules on bidding for the expo!!! Think, huh maybe ya think!!!? -Curly yote

^^^ This!

And Bird, in all those meetings have you guys discussed how you'll continue to try and screw 400,000+ fisherman in the state over on stream access? Asking for a friend...
 
Will topgun, SFW isnt raping the public. They are providing a great service. With the money that has come from your so called state gifts they have increased sheep tags ftom 9 to close to 10. Huge increase with elk tags. Goes on and on. What a great organization SFW is looking out for hunters and working to increase tags for the average joe. Great organization. I think my iq is much higher than yours eehen it comes to reality in Utah.
 
Would someone please interpret that last post Birdman made, as it's so stupid that I have to question whether the guy even has an IQ!
 
>Good for you topgun. Since
>you really have no idea
>how it all works, though
>you think you do, it
>will be good you stop
>spaying your inaccurate thoughts.
> Coyote, dont think
>i said legislative meetings but
>i did say WLB, RAC,
>and government meetings held to
>deal with fishing, wildlife.
> Yes i was there

You said nothing about WLB, or RAC. You did say legislature which I would assume is your reference to government above. The question was who sets population objectives and below is your exact statement I copied form your post.

"
The state legislature. And at the meetings on it there is SFW and the cattlemen fighting agianst each other. No sportsmen show up. Now sportsmen seem to want to get in volved. Just SFW trying to increase herds."

A reasonable person can only conclude from that statement you were meeting with the legislature. SFW, the legislature, the cattlemen and now you at the meetings. Interesting.!!!!!

Also one more question. In your last post you said this.

"Will topgun, SFW isnt raping the public. They are providing a great service. With the money that has come from your so called state gifts they have increased sheep tags ftom 9 to close to 10."

Is it in your world and increase from (you said ftom but I assume you were saying FROM) 9 to CLOSE TO 10 (ten) a big increase.
 
There is a plan made, I admitted I was wrong but there were meetings with forest service etc on the numbers of elk. When working on these issues yes I was present on some. Yes I have testified on the state capital on issues. I am not a writer, never claimed to be. I have someone who writes my stuff for me when in meetings. I admit it. I will also admit I don't know everything. I do know much more then most mm people about SFW. I also know topgun talks without knowledge on SFW issues. I wish I was as smart about everything as top gun is. It just blows me away how smart he is. Top gun you are my idol.
 
Birdman, your post is ridiculous and completely untethered from reality. So according to you, DP addressed silentstalker?s concerns by telling him that ?there will be a full accounting? except he forgot to mention that nobody but SFW would ever see the results of that so called ?full accounting.? That is laughable!

Show us find more of your intellectual gymnastics. Tell us what DP meant at the 2005 WB meeting when he stated: ?It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Let me guess? DP said it's fair to ask the question but he never said the SFW would answer it? Am I right? Is that how you read that statement?

I never asked for SFW to open up their entire books. I asked them to keep their promises and provide the ?full accounting? for the Expo tags that was promised. And to answer your question, yes, if I was drinking from the public trough and selling public tags in the name of conservation, I would show the public where the money was going ? especially if I promised transparency while lobbying for the tags.

Let's just cut to the chase, SFW and DP said what they had to say to generate enough public support to get the Expo tags approved. Once they got the tags, however, they reversed course and backtracked on those promises and committments. To make matters worse, the DWR completely dropped the ball by failing to require transparency and accountability from the beginning. Just admit and acknowledge what happened in the past. That the first step.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-17-18 AT 07:33AM (MST)[p]So Birdman now says he's no writer. That comes as no big surprise when trying to read and decipher most of his posts! He's also said many times that he knows everything going on at SFW is on the up and up, yet now he says when he goes to the Legislature to testify that someone else in the SFW writes down what he's supposed to say. Yep; that sure sounds like he really knows all the intricate details of what goes on at SFW, including where all the money is going, LOL! I have to conclude that the guy is a good man trying to do the best he can, but is easily duped by others in the organization and is so naive that he has no idea what actually is going on.
 
I just found this thread. Been away too long.

If you guys were as rabid about ecology and deer management as you are about who gets to kill the last deer, then there would be 200 inch mule deer running around everywhere.

Its a broken and failing system yall are hanging onto tooth and nail guys. The fact that yall argue over accountability and distribution of less than %1 of the big game tags in the state shows that the people responsible can keep screwing things up and feeding yall distractions so they can't be held accountable for it.
 
Come on dip chit from Texas. If you're going to jump in this argument atleast be honest, less than 1% of the tags?

Maybe do some learning and try learn the difference between General season tags and Limited Entry tags before you open your pie hole.
 
>I just found this thread.
>Been away too long.
>
>If you guys were as rabid
>about ecology and deer management
>as you are about who
>gets to kill the last
>deer, then there would be
>200 inch mule deer running
>around everywhere.
>
>Its a broken and failing system
>yall are hanging onto tooth
>and nail guys. The
>fact that yall argue over
>accountability and distribution of less
>than %1 of the big
>game tags in the state
>shows that the people responsible
>can keep screwing things up
>and feeding yall distractions so
>they can't be held accountable
>for it.


I'd strongly suggest "yall" get back to your taxidermy business and stay away from this thread when you have no idea what it involves!
 
Actually Towelie that was honesty. Just because you can't handle how childish your argument is doesn't mean I am being dishonest.



Just to clarify your argument, and others that agree with you, this isn't a fight for a hunting tag. It's a fight over opportunity for trophies. Don't start squawking about that statement. YOU DECIDED TO MAKE THE ARGUMENT ABOUT TROPHY UNITS, NOT ME. That's what is important to you. Competition for trophy hunting tags. If you were fixated on true hunting values these tags would be insignificant to you.


I know all about the argument. I know what you are going to say before you say it. You are like a puppet but not quite that good. The difference is a puppet knows when someone is pulling his strings. You don't.


I actually thought Grizzly had some interesting ideas with his opening. From there it all devolved into the same silly bickering that has gotten yall nowhere.
 
GREAT!!! Now we have 2 people on here who wont answer question and just spew garbage and defend corruption.
 
Will top let me be clear. I write what i want to say then someone puts it in a better way for me. SFW has NEVER written anything for me. Never once did i say i knew everything. I do know more than most and a hell of a lot more than you do.
Hawk, keep beating the dead horse. There is no question if things were reversed and you were in Troys shoes with all the hate going on that you would do different. You say you will, bullshit. Your too smart to allow your enemy. When you had the chance to look at the books why didnt you. Ill answer that. Because then you would know how up and up SFW was and could not continue your vendetta.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-17-18 AT 10:23PM (MST)[p]If you call reminding SFW if it's own promises ?beating a dead horse,? then so be it. If I were you I would want to move on and change the subject too.

By the way, when was I offered access to SFW?s books? Oh let me guess, that was back when I was seeking a position with SFW but was rejected, and that is what led to all my hate? Or was that back when I supposedly agreed with SFW that 30% accountability was sufficient and then changed my mind? Where do you come up with this stuff?

Since you seem to believe that SFW offered to open their books, why don't you follow up on that myth. Why don't you get that long promised ?full accounting? of all the expo fees ready and I will stop by tomorrow.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
Not a problem hawk. A few years ago you were offered the chance and you know it. You turned it down. Had nothing to do with you being turned down. You know the situation but I am sure to keep people from believing you will continue to deny.
Those on mm when it comes to SFW seem to think it's good to McCall them names. They can't carry on a conversation they want to destroy. That's why most people in SFW have left.
For those who love to hunt the Monroe you should thank SFW, In short lumpy for saving the elk hunt there. Enough said.
For Top gun, I don't ever recall a kind word out of you. That says a lot about you.
There are those who jump in and help the dwr when needed. There are most mm people who sit back and complain about what the dwr does. Fence sitters.
Hawk. You know what you were offered. Use all the excuses you want. It tells what your true desire is.
 
Ken, I have no idea what you are talking about. Despite your claimed expertise on these issues, you are fairly new to these discussions. Yet you have made some truly ridiculous claims. I have been pushing for complete transparency and accountability on the Expo tag monies for nearly a decade. Are you claiming that SFW offered to allow me to have access and see an accounting of how all the Expo fees were spent? If so, then I have no recollection of such an offer. If you claim such an offer was in fact made, then why not step up and make good on it today?

This sounds an awful lot like when you accused me of seeking a position within SFW, getting rejected, and then seeking to destroy SFW out of spite. Another crazy assertion by you that is not based in fact. Let's not play games. If you claim that SFW offered to provide access to the long promised ?full accounting? of all the Expo tag monies then why not honor that offer today?

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
I think the real reason folks from SFW left this forum is because sportsmen on this forum continued to ask the tough questions and never got any answers. Just like DP?s Expo thread in 2006. Just like the DP/Newberg debate in 2012. SFW made certain statements and committments but failed to follow through on them.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
Why is this a public conversation now. It looks as if its just two guys arguing. Frankly this argument will never reach a conclusion. So what is the purpose of doing it? What is the purpose of it being on this thread? It really has nothing to do with the original post.
 
>Robiland,
>
>What question related to the original
>post would you like for
>me to answer?


The Pig is hungry for his slop.
 
>Why is this a public conversation
>now. It looks as
>if its just two guys
>arguing. Frankly this argument
>will never reach a conclusion.
> So what is the
>purpose of doing it?
>What is the purpose of
>it being on this thread?
> It really has nothing
>to do with the original
>post.


Says the guy who's favorite hobby is arguing on the internet and has over 4000 post of nothing but meaningless arguing.
 
Tri-

Let me connect the dots for you:

A. This thread is about improving the broken expo tag process.

B. As part of the discussion, I pointed out the broken promises and commitments from SFW, wherein they promised sportsmen that they would account for the Expo funds.

C. Birdman claims that SFW previously offered to provide me a full accounting of Expo funds but I declined because I allegedly don't want the truth but would rather just work to destroy SFW. :)-) sorry but that statement made me chuckle).

D. I explained to Birdman that I have no idea what he is talking about but if SFW is supposedly offering to finally provide the long promised "full accounting" of the Expo fees then I would be happy to stop by SFW's offices later today. Better yet, let's have Birdmand and SFW just post it up on the internet for all to see.

E. This entire discussion relates to efforts to improve the broken expo tag process.

I hope that makes sense for you.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
>Why is this a public conversation
>now. It looks as
>if its just two guys
>arguing. Frankly this argument
>will never reach a conclusion.
> So what is the
>purpose of doing it?
>What is the purpose of
>it being on this thread?
> It really has nothing
>to do with the original
>post.


Any reasonably intelligent sportsmen who is new to what goes on in Utah will benefit from reading this thread and others like it.

It's very clear you have people asking reasonable, fair questions about how public resources are being managed and accounted for. On the other side you have almost childish, incomprehensible 'reasons' as to why an organization can't be transparent.

In the end, I think it helps educate folks so the cancer that is sfw does not spread to other states...and I hope someday they are cleaned out of Utah.
 

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