Age and Genetics

buckhorn

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I think we can all agree that it takes both to grow big antlers.

I believe we humans are ultimately responsible for the rise or fall of our Mule Deer herds.

My questions are:

1. What can we as hunters do to improve the age class of Mule Deer bucks?

2. Can anything be done to improve Genetics?

3. If we continue on our present course will we eventually lose both?
 
1. Quit shooting young deer regardless of score.

2. Yes, kill off every deer and restock with known 200"+ pedigree.

Most perceived genetic issues are nutrition & age issues. Get more deer stacked into the upper age classes and the # of top tier scoring bucks will naturally increase percentage-wise. Toss in a few consecutive mild winters with wet spring/summers and people would swear up & down the genetics have gotten a lot better....

3. You aren't going to lose the genetics, they are what they are.
 
Question 1. Yes, we can let bucks live longer by refraining from killing them. Either by regulation or personal/social choice. Difficult to do by personal/social choice on public lands, easier on private lands.

Question 2. According to the deer research people I've asked, it's nearly impossible in a wild population. A genetics researcher from Montana State at Missoula told me it would take hunters thousands of years to alter mule deer genetics by selective antler harvesting of wild deer. He said, in a wild population there are to many chances for cross breeding to cause a genetic alteration throughout an entire population. Others may know differently but when I went looking for answers no one in the research field would contradict his opinion, so I took it for fact as far as I could get.

Question 3. We can and do altered age class when ever the system decides it wants to, by regulating hunter harvest. Closing a unit or greatly reducing the harvest by any number of methods, will begin to alter age class immediately. Conversely, opening a unit to hunting or increasing the buck harvest, without restrictions to the age of harvest, will immediately begin to alter the age class in the opposite direction. Again, our system of hunter management is how we determine how much or how little variety there is in a unit's age distribution.

Regarding loosing natural selection genetic by how we are currently managing deer harvest, see #2 above.

Now............you need to do your own more in-depth investigation because for every sportsmen, there is a different opinion. Mine is no better than anyone else's, maybe worse.

You might enjoy reading this information, if you'd like to get another opinion.

http://www.msudeerlab.com/nutrigen.asp

DC
 
Thanks guys good answers.

What are your opinion on all this HI-TECH equipment thats available to us now? How much effect is it having on our big buck populations? When do we say enough?

lumpy, I read the report, very interesting.

I have always assumed that if we are killing the best antlered bucks and leaving the (scrap racks) to do the breading that we would wind up with genetically inferior deer. I hope this is not the case, but if not why do some areas have management hunts?
 
Once Genetics are shot out they're gone for good!

Here's the part that most don't understand including the DWR!

Back in the Banner day of Mule Deer it wasn't a Big deal for an average 2 Point to do some of the Breeding because He did have good Genetics,He just needed time to reach his Potential!

Most 2 Points of today are not Packing good Genetics & even if they lived to age 10,most of them would still be JUNK!

Can anybody see the Light?

And Yes We do Need some Good Genetics/older age class Bucks left when the Rut roles around,you can't kill every GAWD-DAMNED one of them & expect the PISSCUTTERS to do 90% of the Breeding & ever end up with a Herd worth a Damn!

MOTL Bucks doing the Breeding Ain't gonna do a Herd any good!










[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
1. Quit killing young bucks.

2. Not sure you can change the genetics of a local herd unless you import some different genetics to interbreed with the local deer. It would be interesting to see what effect the Antelope Island deer transplant would have if those deer were transplanted to an area that grew bucks that never exceeded 150".

3. Possibly. According to Dr. Valerius Geist, we could be witnessing the beginning stages of mule deer extinction. Not sure if we can stop this from happening without dramatic habitat change.

Management hunts are designed to take some pressure off of younger bucks with superior genetics; not necessarily to alter genetics; although one would think that that would have some impact on genetics in the long term. Antler point restrictions can have a dramatic effect and work very quickly to increase mature buck populations...but it's not something you want to continue every year for various reasons. Wyoming uses this tool from time to time in various areas and it seems to work well. I wish we would use it more often in more units.
 
Let the youth shoot whatever.

Anyone over 16-18 years of age shoot a buck with at least 4 points on one side.

Let the youth shoot whatever so it gives them a chance to harvest a deer and enjoy the outdoors.
 
"I have always assumed that if we are killing the best antlered bucks and leaving the (scrap racks) to do the breading that we would wind up with genetically inferior deer. I hope this is not the case, but if not why do some areas have management hunts?"

According to the UDWR people that I've heard from, the "management hunts" on the Henrys and the Pauns, are not because of their concern over genetics, On these premium units, a lot of hunters are passing over bucks with less than 4 points on both antlers, I guess because they see a 3 x 4 or less as an undesirable buck, on these premium units. Because of their antler configuration, some of these bucks get mature and some die of natural causes rather than get taken by a hunter. Rather than "waste" a buck, and "waste" a hunt, they issue "management tags" which gives additional hunters a permit. Like other bucks on the unit, some of these bucks are toads, some not so much, but they're issuing the permits to provide more hunting, not protecting the genetic make up of the unit's herd.

They say that female deer have a built in attraction to "the most likely to survive male". I guess that's where the term, natural selection comes from. Apparently one of the criteria is picking a buck that is old enough, heavy enough, healthy enough, as demonstrated by a buck's antler size, his body size and his attitude, to mate with. Does "select" what they sense is "the best". However, a does can only get pregnant 3 or 4 days out of the month, so if the only bucks that find her, while she is in the selecting frame of mind, are yearlings, she'll select the best of the yearlings, that have come to her scent. If she could select between more mature bucks, she could tell which bucks are better "survivors" and choose more wisely. So elkassassin's statement could be a real concern, if the "lack of natural selection" gets altered for long enough, or so it seems to me.

DC
 
"They say that female deer have a built in attraction to "the most likely to survive male"

My findings are that the Doe in full heat, is receptive to most any and all comers. It is the most dominate bucks job to chase off other suitors to have the Doe for himself. Often, the dominate buck will be chasing off a smaller or less dominate buck only to have another buck slip in and quickly mount the doe. Again when the dominate buck returns, he will chase off or fight, leaving the Doe once again "open" to another suitor with her seeming not to care between any of them.

I've watched at least 10 bucks fully involved trying to breed one doe. Though it was fairly obvious who the dominate buck was, she appeared to care not who was on her, choosing to "stand" for any who were crafty and persistent enough to sneak in and mount her while the big guy was busy trying to have her for himself.

As far as age and genetics, the following is how it was on a very sizable area that my old time hunting buddy dealt with in our buck hunting years ago.

His property consisted of several thousand acres far off the County road in the middle of other large tracts of private land. Him and his Family hunted the property, probably taking a dozen or more bucks each year. Him and i hunted the ranch horseback before we were old enough to drive. Our parents trusted us enough to let us "camp" out at a old hunting cabin on the property, each year for 10 days or so during the season.

So, his property got hunted pretty good. A good day, we'd see maybe a couple decent legal bucks, some days more but more often we'd see none at all. His Family held a right of way thru a Township owned by another local rancher. A Township is 6 sections wide by 6 sections long, 36 sections times 640 acres each, a lot of ground.

This other rancher who owned the township did not at all allow hunting on his property, none. The right of way was only about a mile ride but any and every time we took that ride to get from one huntable, to us, property to another, you can't imagine the number of beautiful huge bucks that we could look at but do nothing about. Some of those protected bucks were record book class deer, much better bucks than any that were ever killed on my friends property.

Make of this info what you will.

Joey



"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
I don't tend to agree that humans are mostly responsible. I think Mother Nature's current cycle is rough on deer. With their strict diet it's hard to support numbers of deer when the range won't support it. Even with limited hunting we're still at the mercy of Mother Nature and the range will only support a certain number of deer. Epic winters every 5 years or so interspersed with period of drought, all while our demand for tags is relatively constant, and our efficiency at killing perhaps the greatest it's ever been. Add to that the fact that large private tracts that hold more quality deer are out of reach for a lot of us these days.
 
I think its without question that humans are usually responsible when there is a lack of older, larger antlered deer.
Look at the areas where tags are extremely limited or where hunting is off limits, or where they shut down hunting for a period of time? compare with heavily hunted areas?

Nature is in control of overall deer numbers most of the time, but the lack of big old bucks is mostly because of us.
 
Spot on Piper. WE are indeed solely responsible due to the lack of older, larger antlered mule deer.

In order to improve the age class of mule deer bucks, one thing needs to be established first. ELIMINATE RUT HUNTS!!!
In my opinion, there is no reason why any of us should be allowed to kill any animal while its sole objective is breeding. Any season during the rut to me is considered a shoot, not a hunt. What are you thinking about when getting laid?

The only exception to this may be offering special hunts to those that are limited such as handicapped, wounded warriors, seniors, youth etc. Even then, I think this is where the 'management hunts' should come into play.

Lastly, I do not believe we will ever get the majority of sportsmen on board to "stop killing young deer". The spectrum of a hunter's ambition is far too broad. Some trophy hunt. Some meat hunt. That is difficult to change.
 
It's true we cant control the weather.

Severe winters certainly take there toll on deer herds.

However we are responsible for the decline in winter range habitat. It's not likely we will stop that issue.

In my opinion the biggest threat to old aged bucks is the advancement in our hunting equiptment and the amount of pressure we put on them with it.

Quoting Mike Duplan "I would hate to be a Mule Deer Buck trying to get old in this day and age"
 
Rut hunts are perfectly fine if the goal is to shoot numbers. The mature bucks are more visible and that's what needs to be shot anyway instead of dishing out more tags for earlier seasons & hoping ppl dont shoot the dumb young ones just to fill a tag. Start cutting tags that are easier to acquire and it may upset some folks though.
 
Just wondering if you guys know? A deers genetics don't change.
For instance, A buck has the EXACT same genetics as a fawn, fork, trophy class 7+ year old.
Just because a buck matures DOES NOT change his genetic potential to produce record class offspring.
 
2lumpy,
I couldn't diss agree any more about the second half of your post #8. Does or cows do not decide who is the dominant buck or bull the bucks and bulls decide that. The females could care less what is on top of their lovers head as long as she gets breed period. Have you ever watched more than one buck trying to breed one hot doe. She will stand for any one of them I don't care if it's a yearling buck or a 8 year old toad. Have you ever watched a hand full of bulls trying to breed the hot cows in the herd? Never once have I seen a doe or cow that is hot turn around and make sure the buck or bull that's on her back is the one with the biggest head gear. I've seen it far too many times where the most dominant buck or bull in a certain area clearly isn't the one with the largest antlers.
 
No problem cache. You've seen what you've seen. I've seen what I seen. The folks in the field will watch with interest won't they.

DC
 
Makes me Sick when I see a little PISSCUTTER Buck trying to Breed his Mother!

Heard on Our Local Radio the other day that the DWR is Boasting 19 Bucks per 100 Does!

Makes it sound Good to some I Guess?

Problem is there Ain't very many 100 of Does around!

Until they get this Buck to Doe Ratio BS out of their Heads & start doing something to increase Deer numbers it'll never change!










[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
I'm on board with you there BC. Got to be more standards to measure against. The cloth is built with many threads. Same with age class triggers and elk. As stand alone measurements, they leave us lopsided.
DC
 
Yeah, i agree too. When talking about Utah's Mule Deer situation, all i can go on was my two trips there in two years. Both hunts were some kind of joke to me and the second trip there i wondered to myself why i bothered to come back. Granted, my hunts were on public land in General units with over the counter tags. I never saw so many hunters out, way off the beaten track, in my life and they were shooting at anything that moved. Yikes!!

For Utah, to me Doe to buck ratio should only be instituted once habitat capacity has been reached. Once it gets close to being more deer than the habitat can support, then worry about buck to doe ratio. Until then, manage for increasing the herd numbers, the bucks will naturally increase with the size of the herd.

When deer numbers are down, the last guy i want to hear from is the guy who went to school back in whitetail country talking about shooting does to improve the herd. My $.02

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Conversations like this entire thread are exactly why I got out of doing biologist work full time. Nobody has a clue but no one knows that they don't have a clue, and they are hard headed and self righteous about it. Deer never stand a chance.
 
"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
One thing I think some people are missing when talking about "genetics" is it is not truly a discussion about genetics but a discussion about one small genetic trait (antler size - as measured by humans). Half of a bucks genetics come from his mother to start with. The ability to put on fat, find food, water, evade predators, convert vegetation into fat, thick coat to withstand rain and cold, etc. If people want to talk about antlers then fine but to use the term genetics for one trait is a stretch.

Just my thoughts

Joe
 
>Rut hunts are perfectly fine if
>the goal is to shoot
>numbers. The mature bucks are
>more visible and that's what
>needs to be shot anyway
>instead of dishing out more
>tags for earlier seasons &
>hoping ppl dont shoot the
>dumb young ones just to
>fill a tag. Start
>cutting tags that are easier
>to acquire and it may
>upset some folks though.

There are other options to ?shoot numbers? rather than picking off the cream of the crop. With that said, don't you think killing the best bucks during a rut hunt is more detrimental than killing a percentage of younger bucks during a general hunt whose sought after genetics are unknown at the time?

Tristate; couldn't agree with you more.
 
What the freaking Sam Hill!!!

Tritroll making sense!!!!

Increase B to D ratio, tell hunters to stay
Home and genetics?? Seriously??

Like trilip said deer are screwed.

It's simple, if you want bigger dear don't let people
Hunt.

If you want more deer figure out the cycles on
Production of fawns of the year. Not just that they
Survived the first year, but did they have a positive
Effect on the herd.





"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Age and genetics, It is clear to me that hunters want non typical genetics or big typical genetics or bust. I don't think genetics are shot out of a herd in 20 years. An example of this is the Gunnison basin. Prior to 99 the buck to doe ratios were very very low. Like 3 per 100. The DOW limited hunters and by 2004 big bucks were the norm, where did they come from if the genetics are shot out.

I killed a buck in Colorado last year that we have watched for several years. He was a very wide 3x3, mature buck for most of his life. This last year he added a small front on one side and was a 3x4 when I shot him. Doesn't matter how old he was going to get he would have never had the right genetics for some hunters.

If you shoot 1 1/2 year old bucks you could be killing all the genetic studs before they have a chance to develop. Just because he is a folkie doesn't mean squat about what he might be in 8 years. They have to live long enough to know.

If hunters are going to judge the deer genetics by B&C score it will always be disappointing. Look at the books, there are ups and downs and generally the record books go up and down correlating with herd health, not hunters picking and choosing. If you want to control genetics then shoot old deer no matter what the score. In today's Internet world a mature 3x is a inferior deer when in reality he is no matter or dumber with the extra tine.

If the score is the only thing that floats your boat then yep, genetics are horrible. Do genetics in other species change that drastically in 20 to 30 years, don't think so.

Rich
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-14 AT 08:28AM (MST)[p]Rich, good post.
Drought, bad Winter conditions an injury? will likely keep a potential BC buck short of the books.
Normal conditions with mature bucks at their optimum potential from say 5 1/2 to 10 1/2 years old will mostly all have some darn impressive racks. What percent are "Book Bucks"? My guess 5-10 percent. Genetics and habitat and health all play a part.
No matter how we are allowed to hunt, whatever the laws or seasons are. Most areas are in need of older bucks, not for the breeding but for those of us that like the big antlers. :)
Not hunting rutting bucks would help.
 
what do you guys think of a late season management hunt? check this deer out. I watch deer in an area that is overrun by giant two points like this guy. This is only one of three that are the same age caliber and all they are and ever will be are giant two points. Check out the mass on this guys bases
9630image.jpg

4876image.jpg

1084image.jpg
all three of these deer have showed up for the past 4years putting on about 3 extra inches of tine and mass. They are the meanest baddest deer in the area. I have watched them kick the crap out of solid 180 plus class bucks and steal their does during the rut. Needless to say. We need a couple late season management tags over here.
This deer being the worst of them! This is his third year making him at least four or five and he hasn't grown an inch from year to year the shed in my hand is from this year and the shed to the right is from last year.
4415image.jpg

"Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you
down to their level and beat you with experience."
 
>
>There are other options to ?shoot
>numbers? rather than picking off
>the cream of the crop.
>With that said, don't you
>think killing the best bucks
>during a rut hunt is
>more detrimental than killing
>a percentage of younger bucks
>during a general hunt whose
>sought after genetics are unknown
>at the time?
>
>Tristate; couldn't agree with you more.
>

The cream of the crop is scattered amongst the age classes and only represented by roughly 10% of the class. The old bucks have had a lifetime to breed and rut is represented by a bell curve just like sexual maturity and breeding where the majority of does are being bred by the middle aged bucks. Those are the bucks that end up being targeted in earlier seasons bc they're the best people can find. Rut will still put more of the older classes on display and that's what needs to be shot in terms of numbers. More bucks get carried to those older age classes the more tags can ge allotted to reduce their numbers.
 
>
>The cream of the crop is
>scattered amongst the age classes
>and only represented by roughly
>10% of the class. The
>old bucks have had a
>lifetime to breed and rut
>is represented by a bell
>curve just like sexual maturity
>and breeding where the majority
>of does are being bred
>by the middle aged bucks.
>Those are the bucks that
>end up being targeted in
>earlier seasons bc they're the
>best people can find. Rut
>will still put more of
>the older classes on display
>and that's what needs to
>be shot in terms of
>numbers. More bucks get carried
>to those older age classes
>the more tags can ge
>allotted to reduce their numbers.
>

The rut may "put more of the older classes on display" like you say but those aren't necessarily the only bucks being targeted. Hunters are going to kill the best buck they can find whether it's a four year old with outstanding genetics or a ten year old with slightly less desirable traits. The bucks with the largest antlers, essentially the best genetics, are the ones being killed. A 10-12 year old regressed forked horn or three point will more than likely make it through a rut hunt and then die on the winter range. Most hunters do not care to kill a buck of that nature when they've been lucky enough to draw a coveted late season tag.

I believe our interpretation of ?shoot numbers? is where we deviate. If there is the need for a late season hunt in order to thin numbers, a management hunt has always made perfect sense to me. It doesn't always have to remain one either. Why not rotate a management hunt every few years until a desired quality or trait has been achieved. At that point, the hunt could once again have no restrictions.
 
A Late Management Buck Hunt wouldn't be so bad but:::

JUNK/Management Bucks are doing most of the Breeding as it is!

I don't agree with it being Late either!

You gonna shoot them after the Rut?

We need to Increase Herd Numbers!

we need some decent Genetics doing some of the Breeding!

We need to not worry about Buck to Doe Ratio's if We've only got a 100 Head left in an area where there should be 1000's of Deer!

The overall Utah Deer Herd SUCKS!












[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
With deer numbers down all over the west it would make since to me to cut out the late season hunts. That includes auction tags with extended seasons.

I agree with management hunts intended to cull out the inferior genetics. Let Youth hunters get the majority of them.
 
>The cream of the crop is
>scattered amongst the age classes
>and only represented by roughly
>10% of the class. The
>old bucks have had a
>lifetime to breed and rut
>is represented by a bell
>curve just like sexual maturity
>and breeding where the majority
>of does are being bred
>by the middle aged bucks.
>Those are the bucks that
>end up being targeted in
>earlier seasons bc they're the
>best people can find. Rut
>will still put more of
>the older classes on display
>and that's what needs to
>be shot in terms of
>numbers. More bucks get carried
>to those older age classes
>the more tags can ge
>allotted to reduce their numbers.

Txpackmule, are you saying the older bucks got no lead in their pencils?
 
>With deer numbers down all over
>the west it would make
>since to me to cut
>out the late season hunts.
>That includes auction tags with
>extended seasons.
>
>I agree with management hunts intended
>to cull out the inferior
>genetics. Let Youth hunters get
>the majority of them.

Amen!

I think all these different opinions here stem from each of us living in different areas of the West. Not everyone defines a rut hunt the same way. I'm not from UT but I can tell you that rut hunts in the area I grew up in have completely exhausted those sought after genetic traits we all love to see.
 

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