Arizona elk

[ck2128]

It seems like I've heard bad things about Arizona elk regarding the draw system, such as "you'll never get drawn as long as you live". I'm assuming this is partly true and party exageration. Actually, I've never looked into it myself because of the things I've heard. Is it a point system similiar to Colorado and is it worth putting in on if I've never put in for that state before? I'm 26 years old, so I do have time for points to accumulate. Also, is it the same system for Arizona deer?

 

[sremim]

AZ has a bonus point system, so no it is not like CO, but in some ways people will say it is. With the new 20% max point allocation, some say it becomes preference points like CO, but we'll see.

Yes you can draw with 0 points. Points may or may not help. There are people every year who draw tags with little to no points, then there are those who have 10+ points who don't draw tags. Its the luck of the draw. You have plenty of time to start applying now. With this 20% going to the max point holders, some have speculated that over time you will be required to have max points to draw the best areas. It did not happen like that this past year, and everybody is harping on G&F so it may change before it comes to that.

Yes deer points are the same way.








It's Bush's fault!!!

 

[ck2128]

Exactly what is the 20% max point allocation? What is a bonus point? The hunters who draw with 0 points, do they just draw on a less desireable area? It seems like the more points you have, the better of an area you could potentially draw.

 

[goldhunter]

I think it is worth the effort and money to apply in AZ. Keep in mind the trophy quality has been sustained for many years there. In most other states trophy quality seems to come and go.

As far as the problem with the draw system mentioned above, right now and for the next few years it will only apply to the top deer units. Last year probably only 13b. It is getting to the point where most of the top point pool is NR. They seem to be applying for 13b. With only 7 tags available to NR, it will take many years to work through this group given the way the system is structured now.

As far as the elk draw is concerned, there is a higher percentage of residents in the higher point pools. This will permit the system to work as a bonus point sytem for at least some of the tags. Ultimately the early rifle and muzzleloader hunts and probably some of the top archery hunts will become preference draws. I would expect this is four or five years out.

The state will probably make an adjustment to the system at some point.

Note that sheep and pronghorn draws will never be in this situation. There are to many residents in the top point pools relative to the NR and the number of available tags.

As I tell my daughters, "math is power".

 

[Shedreg]

There are certain algorithms and conditions that they put in their computer software for the draw. I know it goes through different "checks" to see if the person is a first time application, those that have a violation, had taken a hunter safety course and all other "what-if's".
Once this is done, then those with bonus points are put in the main temporary table for the draw. The draw is then started within the program with a For Loop on the temporary table, where they look at the different "checks" being drawn first, like a scenario here - "Ah my wife put in for the Early Bull Unit 9 hunt and she got drawn!" or, "My friends buddy put in for the 12B late hunt, and he got drawn, with no bonus points". How many times have you heard that? It's obvious that the AZGF software isn't being used to the utmost, meaning they just don't put all the apps in and "spin the wheel".
I wouldn't mind taking a look at their computer code and see what's really going on.
All I'm saying, is that their current systems are not working and it seems every year, they have problems internally and externally with their software and harware systems.
Hopefully they can see the blue sky and do a major overhaul on their legacy systems.

 

[sremim]

"Exactly what is the 20% max point allocation? What is a bonus point?"


A bonus point gives you an extra chance in the draw. So if you have 0 points and apply, your name gets put in 1 time. If you have a bonus point, your name is put in for the original app, plus one more time for the bonus point. So the more points you have, the more times your name goes in for a chance at one of the tags. The 20% max allocation means that 20% of all tags for any given unit will go to those with the most bonus points.

"The hunters who draw with 0 points, do they just draw on a less desireable area?"

NO, not necassarily. You have the chance to draw the best areas with 0 points, just not a good chance. But yes, it is always easier to draw the "less desireable units." However, every elk unit in the state holds big bulls. So if you want to hunt big bulls sooner, stay away from the published units. Other units have just as big of bulls.

"It seems like the more points you have, the better of an area you could potentially draw."

The more points you have, the better a chance you have to draw because your name goes in that many more times.


It's Bush's fault!!!

 

[ck2128]

That's exactly what I was needing to know, and what I had originially thought in regards to the draw as well. Thanks very much. I did have one last question: not that it will effect me for many years, but you say on the 20%, 20% of the licenses go to the people that hold the most bonus points. Does it start at the top, and lets say I have 18 bonus points (I believe that's the max), I'll for sure draw and then it works its way down from 18 to the person who has 17? And I'm assuming that if their were 1,000 people that had the max 18 points, that it would be pure lottery of who gets the tags among the 18 point holders?

 

[sremim]

Yeah I believe thats how it works. I'm not sure where they start with the number of points per unit, but I'd imagine they start at the top. I know there are others here who know for sure.

FYI, If you are going to hold out until you get to max points, you will not want to put a second choice hunt that you do not want. No matter what choice you draw, you will lose your points. So you can't go cow hunting while you build up max points for bull.









It's Bush's fault!!!

 

[Heat]

Let me use my elk hunt last year as an example. As you stated the max number of points last year was 17. There weren't many with that number and I believe they should have drawn tags.

I only had 6 bonus points and drew a tag in the 20% allocated for my unit. Even though you may not have "max", which for this year is 18, you just need to have enough to be one of the ones with the most bonus points for the particular unit you apply for. A unit 9 early rifle bull tag probably has a number of folks pretty high up there in the points drawing those 20% tags, like probably 15-17. I drew what is considered a mediocre archery elk hunt with 6 in the 20% bonus point part of the draw. I'm sure there are folks that draw the cow tags with much fewer than that, maybe even 2-3 points.

Bottom line is apply for hunts that the folks that have been waiting decades don't apply for and you can draw pretty fast. Or just get in line on the tough hunts and the 20% pass will eventually get you drawn. It's just going to take time either way.

I think too many people get caught up with the "best unit" thing. As mentioned above just about every unit in AZ would be considered a trophy unit in most other elk states.

JMHO,

Nick

 

[kast1]

as far as i know there is no max points for az

 

[HuntElk4Fun_]

With the min. age being 10 in AZ, NR Youth hunting licenses being cheap and having 2 boys (10 & 12), I'm planning on putting them in for AZ Elk this year to start building them points. I would like to think they have some shot of drawing a hard unit like early rifle 9, is this true? Even if the odds are pathetic, the way I see it, they still have a shot right?

Good info guys. I'm a rookie to AZ and this thread is great. Thanks!

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com

 

[sremim]

Last I checked any AZ youth tags are for cows only. Again, thats the last I looked at those hunts a couple years ago.

What I find interesting, and cannot figure out, is why people want to start "building" points in AZ? Are most of the people who say this not actually applying for the tag, but only the point? If this is the case, this is what is a waste of money. There are, and will be people who draw the hard to get tags every year with few or no points. It doesn't make sense to me why someone would buy points for 10 years in AZ before actually trying for the tag. You have the chance of drawing the tag with 0-9 points. Just think, if you apply for the tag itself, and draw it with 5 points, you'll build up another 5 in the same amount of time it took you to build 10, and would have drawn the tag once already. While you wait 10 years before going for the tag, other people may have already drawn once, sometimes twice, with less points. Sure there is no guarantee, but somebody has to draw. Now if you can't hunt that year for some reason, thats fine, but I hear time and time again that people just apply for the points, until they have "enough." I'm not accussing you of doing that oddnut, but your statements remind me of those who do that.

So yes, they do have a chance, but I don't think with a youth tag. Enjoy the Youth license fees though.






It's Bush's fault!!!

 

[HuntElk4Fun_]

I plan on putting them in for the regular hunt, not Youth ones. Also, I agree, why build points when you have a shot at drawing. I meant to say is, why not put them in for a killer tag and build points at the same time. Somebody has to draw.

I guess the next question is, a 10 yr old can put in for a normal hunt right? They aren't limited to Youth only hunts right? Just making sure so I don't just "build points". The reason I posted is exactly for the opposite of above. I don't want to just build them points, I want them to have a shot at a great tag and get the point to boot.

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com

 

[sremim]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-02-07 AT 06:52PM (MST)[p]Yes, they can put in for a normal hunt. The only restriction is anybody under 14 has to have taken hunter education to hunt big game. I'd do exactly what you are doing. Good luck.


P.S. Wait till next year to go for the unit 9 tag!!! ;-)






It's Bush's fault!!!

 

[isayNUNYA]

Drew unit 10 early rifle with "0" points as a NR. It can be done. I know for sure you won't draw if you don't put in.

 

[CAelknuts]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-02-07 AT 11:24PM (MST)[p]OddNut, I might be able to help you quite a bit with your strategy for your kids. My son is 19, and I've been applying him in AZ since he was 10, as well as for just about every other western state that offers points. In Arizona, I've always applied him for actual hunts, not points, since you couldn't go "points only" until recently. What I would do is apply him only for very good hunts, some of Arizona's best, and figure that he almost certainly won't draw. If he draws, well its a great tag and justifies taking him out of school for a few days for a great hunt experience. So far, he's drawn 2 tags in Arizona. He drew an early muzzleloader bull elk tag in 5BS at the age of 16, I think he had 5 points at the time, and shot a bull that scored 334". This year, he drew 12AE late for mule deer with 9 points, and shot a 188" buck. I figured that both of those hunts were long enough odds that he was very unlikely to draw them, but he did and we had great hunts. He's got 11 points for sheep and antelope, and is back to building points for deer and elk in Arizona.

I'd be very happy to discuss this whole thing with you in greater detail, as I've built points for him across the west and he's gonna draw some super hunts when he gets out of college and is in his 20s & 30s. When he graduates from college, I think he'll have 13 moose points in Wyoming, and should be able to draw a super moose tag any time he wants. He'll also have that many sheep points and is young enough that he'll draw a bighorn tag while still reasonably young. Also has lots of points in Oregon, Utah, Colorado, Montana, California, Nevada. It takes some dedication and expense over time, but he's going to have a great shot at drawing tags that most of us will have a tough time drawing. Yes, its expensive, but I figure that with all of the stuff we spend money on for our kids, this is one of the more wholesome things I can spend money on for my son. I wish my daughter would take up hunting, I'd do the same for her in a second.

Here is a photo of the buck he shot on 12AE on December 2nd.

 

[CAelknuts]

By the way, don't worry too much about them drawing a tough unit like 9. Make it your first choice if you want, but they can have awesome hunts in 6A, 5A, 5B, 7, and those units are much easier to draw than the most popular units like 8,9,10, 1, 3A&C. etc.

You can have a better hunt than you'd imagine in any of those units considered to be "lesser".

 

[bragabit]

Is there anyplace to find how many points it takes to draw one of the 20% "max" point tags for each unit?