FUTURE QUALITY OF LE UNITS???

elkassassin

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
36,928
I'm Talkin Mainly of LE Elk Units in TARDville!

LE Units were Started Several Years ago to Give Hunters a Better Chance at a better Quality Animal/Hunt!

The LE Elk Units became Awesome Units with as Good of Trophy Bulls being taken anywhere!

Once the Quality Bull Elk became Popular everybody wanted a Piece of the Pie!

Then the GREED Set in!

DWR starting their BS with Age Objectives,GEEZUS!

Slaughtering Cows on LE Units,JUDAS!

Slaughtering Spikes on LE Units,GOOD GAWD A MIGHTY,Our Future Big Bulls!

The BS is really Showing on several of the LE Units this year!

And has been showing for the last several years!

Now they wanna Slaughter More Animals because We're in a Drought year!

The Elk are looking for something Green to Eat & they have been for a few Months now!

Many of them have moved to way Low Ground for Feed already!

It Ain't Hard to see what's gonna Happen Next!

They'll Slaughter more Elk this Fall/Winter than they ever have!

Most People Don't see it I Guess until it's too late?

This States Game Management has became a Real JOKE!

Destroying what was some of the Best Elk Hunting anywhere!

What a Shame!















I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
>What's the matter Bessy?
>You don't like waiting 25 or
>30 years for a chance
>at a 330 bull.


now that's funny....
sorry Bess come to my house instead...
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-24-18 AT 08:00AM (MST)[p]I am generally an opportunity guy in that I would prefer to hunt more often than have one fabulous OIL hunt. That being said, we cannot continue to shoot large numbers of cows and spikes and hope to maintain the upper age class of bulls. With regard to the cow hunts specifically, we are killing off our breeding stock. What is your proposal Bessy for a unit lake the Wasatch where they give out tons of big bull tags, spike tags and truck loads of cow tags? Eliminate spike and cow tags on LE units? Adjust our season dates and move the rifle hunt out of the peak of the rut? What are your thoughts?

Another problem that we must eventually deal with is the bonus point log jam that continues to grow. When somebody like Bessy has been waiting 20+ years for a tag, they begin to expect a certain quality of hunt/experience. If we continue to restrict tags and reduce opportunity, this problem will only get worse. i don't see any easy solutions to this problem.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
I used to think UT had its act together with game management.

Not anymore.

The stunt pulled this year because of the "drought" conditions was idiotic.

When pics are posted of 400" bulls, the hornography addiction gets pretty rampant.

UT and the flat-brimmer 20 something yr old crowd did it to itself...
 
I agree the quality in most units are going down. I have spent the last 3 Years helping friends on the Wasatch. The quality and success has dropped each of the last 3 Years. I spend a lot of time down on Monroe MT and when they opened it up to spike hunting it really hurt it. Now they only hunt spikes on the archery and muzzy hunts and the numbers and Quality are coming back. Maybe limit the spike rifle tags on the Wasatch and push more to the archery and muzzy spike hunts. Or maybe limit rifle spike to every other year on the limited elk units. I do think if you wait
20+ Years you would like a quality hunt.
Or push the rifle hunt later and accept lower success rates but that might be a hard sale for the guys with a lot of points. There is nothing funnier that hunting elk during the rut.
 
Bess,
You?re spot on. But it's the opportunity crowd that usually gives the backing that the DWR points too when making decisions they make. You?re correct that it's greed.
Point jam??? No that is one thing that Utah does right. 50/50 is a great set up. Again those arguing are greedy to have more tags in the opportunity draw.

Flatbrim 20 yr olds fault.... not even close!!! They are not the cause of this...they are the result!!! People get those things confused a lot these days.
 
Just got back from San Juan the last few days. No doubt quality is going down. Talked to a DWR officer in the field and told him so. He said the archery hunt was very hard, not much for quality.

He said they are having 160 cow tags because of droughts. Less AMU for ranchers, less elk for sportsmen. We all need to cut on drought years.

I don't think we should have the days when Utah kills over 15-20 400 class bulls. But we need to have good quality LE units. With the population in Utah suppose to double in the next 30 years, and the huge number of people with 18 plus points, they need to consider to have more rifle hunts out of the rut, still provide archery, and muzzle loader hunts with more restrictions, is the best balance IMO to maintain quality.

A guy shot a 380 bull about 700 yards away that was bugling right below me. Technology is increasing success rates, which equals less elk, less quality as well.
 
They are killing too many cows, period. It ain?t the spikes, enough of them will get through the hunts. But you can't continue to hammer the cows that produce the bulls, and that is exactly what the division has done and will continue to do. It's just catching up to the wasatch like we all knew it would. The San Juan is a little different, not a ton of elk on that unit so it can be effected by killing spikes. The Boulder is the real mystery, that mountain could handle way more elk than the objective allows. Huge summer range, endless winter range. That mountain is incredible, but should carry a lot more elk than they allow IMO. Hell most the state should carry more, but cattle rule the roost, and I believe that has a lot to do with it. The ranchers sure love that extra money they are bringing in off the big bull tags they sell on the surrounding cwmu?s. So my question is after all these fires roll through and the habitat is thriving again in a few years god willing, will they increase the numbers? Ya right...
 
So because you put in for 20 years you are entitled to a 370+ bull?
Just because the DWR restricted hunting for enough years to get a bunch of really good bulls around 2000-2001 doesn't mean that is how it was meant to be. A lot of the those units units then had 50/50 bull cow ratios which from a herd management standpoint is not healthy either. I certainly can see how waiting along time to get a tag can make one expect a certain quality, but I also can see the writing on the wall in regard to point creep. The system is not working, but I think it's unreasonable to expect the DWR to somehow provide more tags to move people through the draw and also provide 8 year old age class. Look around, there are no other states offering the success rates Utah has and a rifle hunt during the peak rut. In regard to spike hunts, the spike hunts were going on on units like the Wasatch and Manti (two of the largest elk herd in the state) during the peak years, so I doubt it has the affect some think it has. I do think the cow hunt ruined the Fishlake and Wasatch herd quality in the last ten years. This is just my view on the situation here, nobody is right or wrong here, but we all have different expectations.

RidgeRebel
 
I have 21 elk points and I don't have an expectation of a 370+ bull. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to kill one that big! But that is not my expectation. In fact, I don't have an "expectation" of any size of bull at all. It's still a hunt, and I know that there is a chance I won't kill one at all.

There is this fake news story out there that all high point holders feel entitled to a giant bull. And it's just that: fake news. I want to go hunt a specific unit and try my luck, come what may.

The only thing I feel "entitled" to is that the DWR follows its own rules, so I know what to reasonably expect for my ability to draw a tag if I follow those rules as well. That doesn't seem like too much to ask?
 
>Flatbrim 20 yr olds fault.... not
>even close!!! They are not
>the cause of this...they are
>the result!!! People get those
>things confused a lot these
>days.

Didn't say it was their fault, said they did it to themselves...

This change has been taking place more so over the last 10 yrs than ever before.

UT, for what it has become with game management, has nurtured the flatbrimmers to usher in a new breed of "hunter". You are correct, they are the product of $45,000 SJ bull tags auctioned off at certain local fundraising banquets.
 
It's interesting to hear guys say, ?move the hunts back so there is lower success rates?. This is an uneducated comment, go take a look at the late season success rates on most units. It's as high as the early season. Too many tags is too many tags regardless of the season with today?s technologies.
 
M73-

I generally agree with your comment that too many tags is too many tags. However, it does not help to maintain quality in a herd when you allow rifle hunter to hunt during the peak of the rut. There is a reason Utah is the only state out west with this season structure. And like several other issues, I don't believe that it is because we are smarter and better managed than all of the other states.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
Hawkeye,
Not everything ties back to a central villain like you believe. But hey you've rode that pony for so long you probably ought to finish the race on it.
 
Cody, I did not point to any "central villain" in my post. I merely stated that when you allow hunters to hunt with a 300 RUM with a Nightforce scope during the peak of the rut, when the herd bulls are most vulnerable, that will have a definite impact on the quality of bulls that survive year to year. If you interpret that as blaming SFW or the DWR for our bass-ackwards elk season dates then so be it.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
If you think you need a better quality employee in the DWR, How do you go about getting it?

This isn't a rhetorical question.

I am not saying they are but if the masses of hunters truly believe they need a better DWR, How are you going to get the personnel?
 
Bingo. Take a look around us at surrounding states and see what they are doing with their elk season dates. It is not rocket science.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
Move the hunts back to October, not late November. Success rates in mid October aren't as good as the rut or late season. That's not a problem solver but it's a start. Besides is it really that fun blowing an elk down at 40 yards with a high powered rifle when you know in the back of your mind you should be doing it with a bow?
 
If you think regulating PROJECTED success rates is effective wildlife management you are living in the Stone age.

Every tag is a dead elk. Now start managing.
 
>If you think regulating PROJECTED success
>rates is effective wildlife management
>you are living in the
>Stone age.
>
>Every tag is a dead elk.
> Now start managing.


It's strikingly obvious why you're not a Wildlife biologist.
 
It's strikingly obvious why your big game is suffering.

And I am a wildlife biologist.


Have any of y'all noticed anytime someone brings up a wildlife problem y'all run to the tag allocation and regulations every time but nothing changes????????

Change the seasons. Regulate the weapons. Stop conservation tags. Cut the total tags. Whatever scape goat you run to is PEOPLE MANAGEMENT. Not wildlife management.


Now who wants to answer the question posted which actually deals with the original post? How do y'all propose getting better employees in your DWR?
 
For you Guys Thinking the Rifle Hunters Got the Peak of the Rut This Year,You're not Spot On!

The SmokePolers are gonna get the Best Crack at it in Most Units!

Then Somebody Will PISS & MOAN Because My SmokePole is a 300 Yard Weapon!

This isn't Just Because:

We've got a F'N Drought Happening this year!

We've Slaughtered Cows for Years in LE Units!

We've Slaughtered Spikes for Years in LE Units!

We've Hunted Big Game to Death!

We've Got continuous & Over-Lapped Hunts Happening for Years!

We've got Long Range Rifles Shooting Game at 2,000 Yards!

We've got StickFlippers Shooting 100+ Yards!

We've got SmokePolers Shooting 500 Yards!

We've Got Names on every Big Buck in the State!

We've Got Names on every Big Gull in the State!

We've Got Price Tags on every Big Animal in the State!

We've Got the High Dollar GREED!

We've got Illegal F'N ATV's Bustin Trail as they Please!

But these are some of the Reasons Our LE Units have became PISS POOR Quality for the most part!

The List is Endless & More than I wanna Type!

For the SMART-ASS Remark above about Hunters feeling Entitled just because they have some Points,You Are very Wrong on that!

But if You Think I've Waited 23+ F'N Years to Shoot a PISSCUTTER,Well That Ain't Happening Either!

We've Got Game Herds Moving Way Low already!

They're looking for Something Green!

And So is Our DWR!














I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Are you ever going to draw a tag Bessy?

You been typing the same thing since 2001!

I'll keep my fingers crossed for ya ;)
 
>Are you ever going to draw
>a tag Bessy?
>
>You been typing the same thing
>since 2001!
>
>I'll keep my fingers crossed for
>ya ;)

Good to hear from you REDDOG!

If & When I Do REDDOG!

It Won't Be Worth the Paper it's Wrote on!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
something needs to change, quality has definitely dropped, San Juan will be killing 320 bulls next year, this year there was one 400 class bull and about 4 370 class bulls, then everyone else that we heard of or seen was 320-340 class bulls. With most hunters taking that class of bulls and not much left to produce much quality for next year.
It is a big reflection of the amount of cow tags, number of up coming bulls each year isn't enough to supply the amount of bull tags being handed out.

The amount of people applying for tags is always going to be high, you cant expect to fix that problem, if you decide to have them all draw tags, what will happen to the LE Deer tags, they will all jump ship to there and flood the LE deer applications as well.

One fix to the problem would be to get rid of Conservation tags, I think they have run there course. make the rich buy from CWMU's and hunt the private property, and leave the public grounds to us peasant public land hunters. We allow the rich to buy there 400 inch bulls each year, and they are great hunters with their money.
 
"One fix to the problem would be to get rid of Conservation tags, I think they have run there course. make the rich buy from CWMU's and hunt the private property, and leave the public grounds to us peasant public land hunters. We allow the rich to buy there 400 inch bulls each year, and they are great hunters with their money."


So you like the level of quality you get from your DWR employee????

I just want to get this logic straight in my head. You think quality in the herds is getting worse every year and you think cutting money to the decision makers responsible for the game you are hunting is how it will get better????? That's a very interesting plan. Its crazy and destructive but still fun to read.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-25-18 AT 07:19AM (MST)[p]dead on brother and it just le elk it is general elk also my god the last 4 years unlimited cow tags on the yellow stone unit. seems like they want to wipe em all out .and the books was the worst I have seen in 20 years.hard to find a 6 point . to many spike tags for sure. it is all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.hell im glad I did not draw tag in Utah there is no quality. left don't wait 20 years to kill a rag head.
 
Everyone wants their cake and eat it too... They want more opportunity, at larger/older animals, with the easiest tool in their bag... But you can only choose two of the three. And right now, the model is for larger animals with the easiest tool in the bag. And its destroying elk herds and hunting in Utah.

My biggest problems with LE Elk in Utah are as follows:

1) Using public lands to grow 10 year old, 400" bulls which greatly restricts the opportunity in those units, and caters to Big Money Hunters, their Outfitters, and the Foundations/Organizations that are given tags to auction off. It's "THE KING'S FOREST" people, and we need to wake up to that right now.!!

2) Rifle hunt right in the middle of the rut. This is ridiculous. I'm sorry for those of you who started putting in when you were 40 or even 50, and are now 60 or 70 and you want an easy hunt because of your age... But the rifle hunt needs to be moved. The archery hunt should be in the rut. They could even triple the tags given out due to the far lower success rate with a bow, and start to do something about the point creep. This would also require eliminating or moving all those stupid spike hunts as well. Nothing but bows and arrows on every unit in the state for elk during the rut. Early rifle should be where the current archery hunt is, only it wouldn't be as long. I say leave muzzleloader alone, or, maybe move it back a week.

3) Pounding the mountains with spike and cow hunts. This is money grab crap, plain and simple. We all know it's not good for the herds and it's not good for the future of elk in Utah.

4) Elk herd counts that consist of any animal that lives on private ground. We need accurate counts of the herds available to hunt on public ground only, not just what is in a unit. Private ground elk are a public resource, but they are not publicly available, so why count them as such..?? That's stupid.


"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
+1 BrowningRage.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
>Everyone wants their cake and eat
>it too... They want more
>opportunity, at larger/older animals, with
>the easiest tool in their
>bag... But you can only
>choose two of the three.
>And right now, the model
>is for larger animals with
>the easiest tool in the
>bag. And its destroying elk
>herds and hunting in Utah.
>
>
>My biggest problems with LE Elk
>in Utah are as follows:
>
>
>1) Using public lands to grow
>10 year old, 400" bulls
>which greatly restricts the opportunity
>in those units, and caters
>to Big Money Hunters, their
>Outfitters, and the Foundations/Organizations that
>are given tags to auction
>off. It's "THE KING'S FOREST"
>people, and we need to
>wake up to that right
>now.!!
>
>2) Rifle hunt right in the
>middle of the rut. This
>is ridiculous. I'm sorry for
>those of you who started
>putting in when you were
>40 or even 50, and
>are now 60 or 70
>and you want an easy
>hunt because of your age...
>But the rifle hunt needs
>to be moved. The archery
>hunt should be in the
>rut. They could even triple
>the tags given out due
>to the far lower success
>rate with a bow, and
>start to do something about
>the point creep. This would
>also require eliminating or moving
>all those stupid spike hunts
>as well. Nothing but bows
>and arrows on every unit
>in the state for elk
>during the rut. Early rifle
>should be where the current
>archery hunt is, only it
>wouldn't be as long. I
>say leave muzzleloader alone, or,
>maybe move it back a
>week.
>
>3) Pounding the mountains with spike
>and cow hunts. This is
>money grab crap, plain and
>simple. We all know it's
>not good for the herds
>and it's not good for
>the future of elk in
>Utah.
>
>4) Elk herd counts that consist
>of any animal that lives
>on private ground. We need
>accurate counts of the herds
>available to hunt on public
>ground only, not just what
>is in a unit. Private
>ground elk are a public
>resource, but they are not
>publicly available, so why count
>them as such..?? That's stupid.
>
>
>
>"Therefore, wo be unto him that
>is at ease in Zion!"
>2 Ne. 28: 24


YES and YES... Well said Browning!!!
 
Browning,

You state killing cows is bad for the herds. Could you expand on what your parameters are to define what is bad about it?

Much thanks.
 
So I was thinking there is roughly 7 hunts going on in these LE units


Archery LE bull

Archery spike

Rifle LE bull

Rifle spike

Muzzy hunt

Cow hunt

late LE Rifle hunt




Archery hunt should start sept 1 and go sept 20 that cuts 8 days off the archery hunt now but who cares they get the extended if they don't fill there tag

Muzzy starts a week after the archery hunt is over and it only goes for a week

Rifle starts a week after the Muzzy hunts over the big bulls will have some chance breeding the cows by then and they will still be running with the herds still an easy hunt for them by doing it this way they have a chance of settling down a little instead of these back to back hunts going on gives the big bulls a chance to breed in between the hunts.



Now I only count 3 and yeah maybe throw a cow hunt in the mix add tags to all three hunts to help the points creep a lot less hunting pressure on are herds

This goes for general season also this is the way it should be
 
>Browning,
>
>You state killing cows is bad
>for the herds. Could
>you expand on what your
>parameters are to define what
>is bad about it?
>
>Much thanks.


OH BOY, here we go with Johnny come late.
 
Been a bigger problem ever since they allowed cow tags to be used during other hunts. This means cows are hunted from Aug through Jan with no real reprieve.

I think UT is the only state that has it screwed up the way they do with letting self-acclaimed snipers loose during the rut. Television shows like 'Best of the West', in its infancy, have not done the critters we hunt any favors either.

Now that the hunting industry is being ran by "rockstar" guides and outfitters, I doubt things will ever change...
 
I am no game manager but I do understand you need to control the # of cow elk vs large bull vs livestock (cattle,sheep) and still include deer, antelope and a variety of small game.
The DWR needs to take in account for opportunity hunters (the largest portion of hunters) meat hunters and trophy hunters Rifle hunters, Bow hunters and Muzzy hunters.
I will support the idea there should not be a rifle hunt during the height of the rut some will argue that is not true this year and I say BS I was up with my niece for most of the Fish Lake rifle hunt this year and the elk wear pretty hot the problem with this year is the record temps and that was shutting them down early and keeping them in the dark timber late.
With the efficiency of Muzzy loaders in this state they should not be in the height of the rut either.
I do agree we need to release the amount of large bull tags at rates that reflect the management plans for a age class of bulls on a specific unit not the state as a hole and I am sorry if your personal favorite unit is not classified as a older age class (7,8 years old) and it might be a lower age class 5,6 years old (Manti, Wasatch). Which I know of 2 390 plus bulls killed off of the south end of the Manti this year and I personally saw plenty of bulls on the Fish Lake that I would have been proud to have put my tag on if I had a tag this year.
The San Juan might be down this year but I believe the drought might have had more to do with that than hunters.
It is well known fact if you carry a large percent of muture bulls some where you are going to have a die off and you will have some down years. Old bulls are pour breeder's and they consume a large amount of feed and are pretty poor at sharing. Just ask any cattleman and they will tell you there is a reason for replacing there bulls around 7 to 8 years old.
I might be way off and you have a right to tell me so but we do need to remember there is a lot of different ideas and opinions out there and most are not like yours or mine.
 
All this doom and gloom doesn't acknowledge one thing: Utah's elk herds overall are thriving. Yes, there are particular units where we have probably over-hunted cows. Those hunts have been curtailed significantly the last two years already.

I won't argue with anyone that a unit like the San Juan produced smaller bulls this year than in the past. I'm also not agreeing with you, just for the record, but I haven't been down there, so I don't know. You are also in the midst of the worst drought of our lifetimes down there. Not just a bad drought, but a HISTORICALLY bad drought. Does that impact antler growth? I would submit we need to look beyond the easy answers. Goodness, am I going to agree with tristate on something? That is a scary notion. But everything you are talking about with changes is simply managing hunters, not the game.

I know this idea of rifle hunting in the rut has become the hip thing to criticize the last couple years, and has really caught fire the last year. But anyone that thinks that this is the cause of any negative impact on our elk herds simply has no clue what they are talking about. And I say that with all due respect, but biologically, you are wrong. There is no other way to slice it.

I will never be a guy that measures the health of our elk herds in inches. Yet the whole reason SFW is for the switch of the rifle out of the rut and moving the archery to the rut is an inches game. Don't believe me? Go listen to their president's comments at the April Wildlife Board meeting, he will tell you that himself. So no, I do not support that change, nor do I support the idea behind it. And I definitely disagree with the tangential justifications people are giving for the change, namely: it's for the elk, because that is simply flat wrong.

And for those that do measure health by inches, if all this is so bad, how do we explain that at least two 400 inch bulls have come off the Manti this year already? I don't recall the last time I heard of a 400 inch bull coming off the Manti, let alone two in one year. Is there a unit with more cow tags or more rut rifle bull tags given than the Manti?

Social aspects are important. I'm not saying that we should never have that in mind as we set tag allocations and policies. There is more room for that particularly when our herds are doing very well, like our overall elk herds in the state are currently doing. But don't claim it's about the elk when it's not. Heck, even SFW was open enough (transparent, tristate?) to admit the reason they want the archery moved to the rut and the rifle out is to be able to produce, and therefore sell off, more 400 inch bulls.
 
Vanilla-

I think you are conflating a few different issues. The original post by Bessy was focused on the declining quality of our LE elk units. In essence, he is concerned about a guy like him that applies for 20+ years only to draw and tag an hunt 300" bulls. I agree with you that a decrease in 400" bulls does not necessarily mean that our herds are less healthy from a biological standpoint. I also agree that for me there is nothing wrong with hunting a 300" bull. On those points, we agree.

However, I have been a critic for 10+ years of scheduling the rifle hunt during the peak of the rut when the herd bulls are most vulnerable. Why? Because I want more 400" bulls running around? No. My concerns are based upon the fact the bonus point log jam continues to build and I know that we could provide more opportunity, move more sportsmen through the system, and maintain better quality by moving the rifle hunt our of the peak of the rut.

I know what Troy said during the April WB meeting but I believe that moving the rifle tag out of the rut would allow us to provide more opportunity while improving the quality on the LE units. Plus, when you consider who traditionally buys the most expensive conservation permits, it is generally older sportsmen who want to hunt with their rifle. I personally think that SFW and other conservation groups may see a decrease in revenue if they are selling archery tags during the rut instead of rifle tags. Therefore, I give Troy and SFW credit for raising an issue that would benefit our herds and sportsmen even though it may result in a decreased revenue from conservation permits.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
Hawkeye,

I have to disagree with three things:

1- The only group of sportsmen this will move through they system faster is archery hunters. Yes, they in theory could offer more archery tags. But they have to take them from somewhere else. They can't just magically create more tags just by moving seasons. Even if they say that the harvest will be less with archery than it will with a rifle (which I agree is true), the harvest of bulls in the rut will also be higher in the rut than they were in August. So, more bulls being killed either way, and therefore, it is not a given that more tags will be available. On this same note, the majority of hunters in Utah use a rifle. I would bet there are more rifle hunters than archery and muzzleloader combined. Unless you think that the harvest rate will drastically be reduced by moving the rifle hunt to October, and therefore could offer more tags? But the early returns off that "middle" any weapon hunt don't show huge differences in harvest rates. And that is even after an early rifle hunt. Under current circumstances, these hunters get a crack at the elk after three hunts, including a rifle hunt where the most tags are given, have taken place. They are still comparable harvest rates. So the short story to the long winded response above is I don't believe for one second this impacts point creep in any meaningful way for the vast majority of hunters, if any at all.

2- I can't give SFW the benefit of the doubt that their position is all about the elk because that is not what they said. Troy specifically mentions the idea of getting more 400+ inch bulls as the reason. It's why he compared Utah to Arizona, and how much better we could be. He doesn't use that as his reasoning, so I'm not going to assume that is his reason.

3- This was actually your first point, but I'm addressing it last. To get on board with worrying about the declining quality of the LE hunts is you have to believe the quality of the LE is declining. I am not one that believes that. Yes, there are units that at one point were better than they are today, but there are units that are better today than they have been in the past. Herds are above objective all around the state. Age classifications are being met and exceeded almost all across the state. I'm on social media and follow most of the usual suspects. I'm seeing giants this year just like I have in the past. I'm sure the expo will be filled with giants from this year's hunts, just like it was last year, the year before that, and 4 years before that. Maybe antler growth is lower this year, but that could easily be explained at the range conditions rather than rifle rut hunts or an overall decline in quality.

Go back to elk hunting 30 years ago in Utah. We are light years ahead today than we were then, and it isn't even debatable. Maybe we peaked 10 years ago and are no longer at that peak, but that peak was never sustainable for the long term anyway with all the other considerations on the table. The elk hunt, and therefore elk hunting policies, are not in a vacuum.

Just my thoughts. I think we have it pretty darn good here in the state for elk hunting. Sure, I'd love to be able to chase 350 bulls every year on an over the counter tag, but that is not reality here for us and never will be. Not until Thanos completes his mission of obtaining the infinity stones and snaps his fingers and gets rid of half of all you yahoos, anyway. (*nerd alert!)
 
So, why is UT about the only state that hunts large breeder bulls during the rut with a rifle, and those states who do not have thriving elk herds as well?
 
Vanilla, I agree with you and Hawkeye and disagree on a few things too.

Archery elk hunting is tough. I have been able to hunt elk in other states during the Archery hunt through September and it is still tough. The herd bulls are still tough to bring into range. I do think the success rate will increase on archery hunts a bit. Becasue I bet lots, not all, will still hold out for that monster bull. I know I have and have had tag soupa few times because of that. And that was my choice.

However, I would like to see maybe even 2 later rifle hunts. One in October and will probable be the desired hunt, offer less tags because of the increase in Archery tags. Then have a late Nov or even in December hunt. Harsh conditions, hard hunting, bulls in remote places should make lower success rates and should be able to increase tags.

These are just my thoughts and ideas. Would they work, I dont know. Maybe.

BUT>>>>> the cow slaughter on the wasatch is BAD. When we had 2 rifle bull tags on the wasatch back in 2009 and 10, we could hunt Diamond Fork and hit any ridge and see herd bulls with 20-30 cows on every ridge. A sight to see. AMAZING. WE could see shooter bulls all over, hear bugles all over. I hunt there now archery hunt and Muzzle and Rifle for deer. It is simply amazing if you see an elk. Last year on the archery hunt I saw 7 elk, 6 cows and 1 small bull. This years archery hunt, I did not see 1 elk in 4 days of camping and hunting. I know the elk have moved onto "private", but since they have and are not huntable, they should not be counted. Unless the property owners will open up, they should not be counted. And that is their choice. But dont complain when the elk are eating up all the food. The few I know of want $500. Sorry, not for a cow.
 
Vanilla-

We agree on many points but I disagree as follows:

1. I don't think that changing the hunting dates only allows for an increase in archery permits. The idea is that by adjusting the dates and decreasing success rates you increase permit numbers. If the archery hunt was moved back into the peak of the rut then theoretically the success rates for archery hunters may improve and tag numbers would remain steady or possibly decrease. However, if you moved the rifle hunt out of the rut, you would likely see a decrease in the 90+ success rates and, therefore be able to offer more rifle tags. So no, I don't agree that the only group of sportsmen this would move through they system faster is archery hunters.

2. I just listened to Troy's comments at the April meeting again to refresh my recollection. You are correct that he stated that we are killing off our top end bulls by allowing sportsmen to hunt with the most effective and lethal weapon during the peak of the rut when the bulls are most vulnerable. However, Troy also spoke about increasing opportunity while maintaining or even improving quality. I have no problem with the comparison of Utah and Arizona. I have been saying for years that we should take a look at what other states are doing. Why is Utah the only state that schedules the rifle hunts during the peak of the rut? It is time to wake up and look around at what other states are doing to try to balance quality and opportunity.

3. I am not a "Chicken little" who believes the sky is falling if every hunter is not seeing and killing 400 bulls. However, I do believe that our system is broken and the bonus point problem will only continue to build if we do not look for ways to increase opportunity while maintaining quality.

In conclusion, I am not an archery hunter who is looking to screw rifle hunters. I enjoy hunting with a variety of weapons. In fact, I will be chasing elk my with rifle in a few weeks in Wyoming. However, I don't believe that we need to allow hunters to call in a vulnerable, rutting bull to 50 yards only to take him with a 300 RUM and long range scope. That is ridiculous. We need to find a better balance between providing opportunity and maintaining quality. A change in a season dates will not solve all of our problems but it would be a step in the right direction that other states took long ago.

Thanks for the discussion.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
Just because all of the other states around us are doing something does not mean they are right and we are wrong. I'm not jumping on board with legalizing recreational marijuana like Colorado, Nevada, California, Oregon, and Washington have done. Just as an example... (what did I just do???)

Just for kicks and giggles, I went and looked at harvest rates on the units that have the middle any weapon elk hunt. Keep in mind, these hunts come after an early rifle hunt, and are the 4th hunt of these bulls on the units. Below are the harvest rate results from 2017. I think I hit all the units that have the middle any weapon hunt. If I missed one, point it out and I can add those numbers.

Manti:
early- 83.6%
middle- 77.6%
late- 84.6%

Paunsaugunt:
early- 67.9%
middle- 85.7%
late- 60.0%

Fish Lake:
early- 76.2%
middle- 71.4%
late- 71.4%

Wasatch:
early- 76.0%
middle- 69.9%
late- 62.3%

Deep Creek:
early- 80.0%
middle- 100%
late- 100%

As you can see, the theory that the rates will go down enough to add more tags doesn't really hold water. Some of the units have a higher success rate already on the middle hunt (the time most are suggesting the rifle hunt gets moved to). Those with lower are within 5% of the early rifle harvest rate, which is simply not a big difference. And keep in mind, this is with them already coming after the majority of rifle hunters have had a crack at the elk. If the early rifle hunt is moved, I think it's reasonable to surmise that those rates would go up, not down. Hunting with a rifle is always going to be easier than with a bow, and it doesn't matter when the season occurs. We're entirely in the speculation arena with this portion of the discussion, but I think the numbers show my speculation is reasonable, and I just don't expect any changes to fix the point creep problem.

There are ways to deal with that, but the only people that will be happy with that are low point holders.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-26-18 AT 12:37PM (MST)[p]Vanilla-

That is interesting data for sure. The Paunsaugunt and Deep Creeks are fairly unique areas when it come to elk with low numbers. Therefore, I would focus my attention on the other units. The data from the remaining units shows that success rates decrease when you move from the early-rifle to the mid-rifle dates but not as much as I expected. It would be interesting to compare data from other units and to explore potential season dates to see how those potential changes would impact success rates.

Now, let's take a look at success rates between archery, muzzleloader and early rifle on the Manti, Fishlake and Wasatch Units:

Manti:
Archery - 37.6%
Muzzleloader - 73%
Early Rifle - 83.6%

Fish Lake:
Archery - 34.8%
Muzzleloader - 82.6%
Early Rifle - 76.2%

Wasatch:
Archery - 33.6%
Muzzleloader - 59.2%
Early Rifle - 76.0%

This data seems to confirm what we already know - that rifles are the most effective killing weapon followed closely by muzzleloaders and then archery. So once again, why do we allow hunters to use the most effective killing weapon at a time when our bulls are most vulnerable? Perhaps we could get away with that in the past but now that a LE elk hunt is becoming a OIL hunt, we may want to reconsider our options.

I have never been someone to do what everyone else is doing just for the sake of fitting in. However, when you are doing something different then everybody else around you it may be worthwhile to look in the mirror and ask why am I doing it this way and is there merit to what everyone else is doing? Wake up sportsmen. Utah is not smarter or different then all of the other western states when it comes to wildlife management.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
"Just because all of the other states around us are doing something does not mean they are right and we are wrong."

This is true, but it doesn't mean they are wrong and UT is right either. Most of those other states don't have spike only hunts as well.

I have hunted cows during the Oct hunt and there is no reason whatsoever that the rifle bull cannot coincide with it. Plenty of big bulls will still get killed. In fact, the cow we shot had a large 350ish bull tagging right along behind the group she was in...
 
I still need more to convince me how we are going to move more people through our system. There are only so many elk we can kill each year. Let's use a round number.

We can kill 100 elk off Unit X. Currently, 65 of those come during rifle, 25 during muzzy, and 10 during archery. Move the seasons, and 15 come during archery now that it is "easier" to hunt the bulls during the rut, 25 remain during muzzy...what did we just do to the rifle hunts? How is this going to help us move more people through the system?

We have a pretty unique elk hunting system in Utah. It's not perfect, but it's pretty darn good. As good as any other state. I know more elk are killed in Colorado, but there are ~3.5 times as many elk in Colorado as there are in Utah. We'll never be able to have those numbers. When looked at harvest percentage, Utah's is higher than Colorado's, so that is something to think about.

I guess what it comes down to is that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I'm fine if someone just simply says "I want to hunt elk in September with my bow." But be careful what you wish for, my prediction is if they make this change, it will have the exact opposite effect on our point pools and moving people through the system as people claim it will have, and we'll never be able to go back.
 
Vanilla,

Look at AZ numbers as well.

You can manage archery hunts to have around 30-35% success.

You can manage muzzle loader hunts for 50-75%. If it is not in the peak of the rut. 1 power scopes.

You can have rifle hunters success around 50%. Mid Oct 7 day hunt.

You can have 5-10% of the rifle tags a 7 day rut hunt End of Sept to first few days of Oct. 90% success.

More opportunity, keep quality. I was on the San Juan unit this year. A bugling bull was shot at at least 600-700 yards. You are killing more top end bulls with the current system is what Troy said. I agree. We need to manage for all hunters, not just trophy hunters. Do what is best for our herds.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-26-18 AT 01:29PM (MST)[p]When you look at the 2017 harvest data, a number of the rifle hunts have 90-10% success rates. Some of the muzzleloader hunts also have high success rates. See https://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/2017/2017_le_oial_hr.pdf

Perhaps our elk committee could look at a variety of potential season dates with the goal of lowering the rifle success rates into the 50-75% range. I don't want to get into telling sportsmen who have waited 20 years what type of bull they should shoot on a LE unit but those sportsmen are entitled to a quality hunt not a guaranteed kill. I am interested in exploring any options that will increase opportunity without destroying the quality of our herds. We owe it to the next generation to move toward a system that provides them more than a OIL opportunity for a quality elk hunt.

Thanks for the discussion. We have pretty well laid out our viewpoints. I look forward to hearing from others on the issue.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
I guess I am not in the camp of wanting to reduce success rates for one group of hunters so we can increase it for another. Maybe that is because I'm a rifle hunter and not a bow hunter? I don't know, that seems a bit like cannibalism to me.

huntin50, you are not the first person to say this, but just the most recent, so I'll address this back to you. We keep talking about killing the top end bulls. Isn't that the goal? Isn't that the entire reason Utah has the age objectives that they have? To ensure we kill the top end bulls? I'm trying to figure out why that is a bad thing?

This suggestion was made by someone else on another forum, so I won't claim it as original thought. You want more opportunity without harming the herds? Lower the age objectives on every unit. We will automatically get more tags for every single hunt in the state. Yes, more bulls will be killed, but we are not having issues with the amount of bulls present to breed the cows. Lower age objectives across the board and you can increase hunter opportunity.
 
Vanilla,

You make some good points.
Hunting big bulls out of the peak of the rut is more challenging. If you look at success rates in general, MT, ID, CO, AZ, NV, NM most rifle hunts are managed for around 50% success. This number maybe going up with technology. NV,NM,AZ,MT have good quality hunts. Most of CO and ID are opportunity hunts.

I believe with the population growth of Utah, and limited habitat, we need to look at decreasing success rates on elk hunts. AZ, NV, and NM have good quality hunts, but offer very few rifle rut hunts. NM don't have any hunts the last week of September if I remember correctly. If we don't make some changes, especially with technology advances, we will be hunting less than necessary. It is fun hunting elk rife rut hunts, but it comes with an expense.
 
Vanilla- Overall, in 2017, 270 bulls were killed on LE Units with a bow (719 tags given). (excluding possible archery kills on Multi-Season tags)

Compare this to the bulls killed on the Early Rifle Elk Hunt alone- 713 (approx.) out of just 900 tags. (I got sick of adding numbers so I didn't do the Mid or Late season, or Muzzy elk hunts.)

In order for archery hunters to kill 713 bulls, we would have to issue about 1,890 tags (at the current harvest rate). Let's assume the harvest rate for archery goes up because it's in the rut and instead of being about 35%, it goes up to 57%. Then we'll adjust and only give out 1,250 tags for archers to hunt in the rut. Now I'm thinking, maybe we keep the early archery, and we now have a "late archery" that is in Sept, in the rut, replacing the current Early Rifle. (And we still have mid and late season rifle elk hunts.)

That would increase the number of available tags by 350, which is a 13.2% increase in the total number of LE Elk tags to be issued. That's going to start to help point creep.

Anyone can see we are a Rifle-Heavy elk hunting state. And I don't think anyone would try to say that archery in the rut would have the same harvest rates as a rifle hunt in the rut. So, the most clear way to try and help the point creep is to switch their seasons around. And we can start to do that without even talking about age objectives, because all we are doing is replacing number of harvested animals by one weapon with another.

If you want to talk age-objectives, then we are looking at an across the board INCREASE in tags issued. No more 8 year old objectives or 10 year old objectives or whatever. We don't need to grow 400" bulls to be sold to the highest bidder. What we need are more 330" bulls running around with occasional 370" bulls showing up. 5-7 year old bulls should be the objective. What if we increased tag numbers, across the board, by 10%..?? This would increase bulls harvested by the same percentage presumably. Resulting in fewer older bulls surviving...

But with just two suggestions I've thought about for only 30 minutes, we could increase tags (opportunity) by 23.2%... And what would that do for the point creep..??

Sorry so long... I just kept vomiting :)

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
>I guess I am not in
>the camp of wanting to
>reduce success rates for one
>group of hunters so we
>can increase it for another.
>Maybe that is because I'm
>a rifle hunter and not
>a bow hunter? I don't
>know, that seems a bit
>like cannibalism to me.

I'm both, but I also think the challenge is the same for archery tackle in the Sept rut as it is for rifle later in the fall. Just because you have the opportunity to get within 40 yds doesn't mean you'll close the deal with archery tackle.

Increase tags for both to meet the objective and put an antler point restriction of 6 point or better for both archery in the Sept rut and split hunts for rifle in mid Oct and early Nov.
 
Vanilla-

How many elk bonus points do you have and what unit have you been applying for? One of the biggest challenges we have to making any changes to the current system is sportsmen who are heavily invested in the current system.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
Lots, but not enough. Yes, this change could have a very large negative impact on me personally. But if I lucked out and drew my tag next year, I'd still be every bit as much against the change as I am today.

You?ve illustrated the point of my biggest concern. This has been the system for ~25 years. Not that things can't and shouldn't change when necessary, but I don't view this as necessary. Elk hunting in Utah is fantastic! The system getting overloaded is not, but that's s hunter issue, not an elk issue. Some people, me included, decided over 20 years ago we were taking the long view on this hoping for a certain experience. We were okay waiting a long time. And now people want to change the rules. I get that life isn't fair, but that ain?t fair.

If there was a biological need with this, I'd say ?that sucks,? but I'd be the first one in line to support the change. I truly mean that. But there is no biological need for this. The elk don't need this. This is strictly for hunters. And only for a small segment of the hunters. Therefore, I'm not on board. And it has very little to do with my point total.
 
Which is why states with no point system continually get bombarded with an increase in apps every year, further decreasing your channces there as well.

What it amounts to is what do you want out of hunting? Years of memories and lbs of meat in the freezer, or one (maybe two) chance(s) at shooting a very large bull.
 
RE: FUTURE QUALITY OF LE UNITS?

What do you think is the best cow to bull ratio and spike to cow ratio as well.
I just seen a study done by Ohio University and they're saying 1bull to 20-30 cows and spikes 1-20 cows

Thanks for the info

Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 
RE: FUTURE QUALITY OF LE UNITS?

I can see the LE units going to Spike General Draw to get some control over the harvest.

Not being OTC anymore, all weapons of choice.

Robb
 
RE: FUTURE QUALITY OF LE UNITS?

Elk identifies what he sees as a problem. By the end of the thread its nothing more than a who should kill elk argument. Its amazing we have any big game at all.


Here's a reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally crazy idea. Let's make a lot more elk.

If you want to kill more elk you gotta make more elk.



Yall look like a bunch of kids fighting over a slice of pie and ignoring the people that say "We have all the ingredients and an oven. Let's start making lots more pie!"

Folks there is a lot more on the line than YOUR elk tag. Think about it.
 
RE: FUTURE QUALITY OF LE UNITS?

Tri, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one that you just don't know how Utah?s system runs.

We can't make more elk. Well, we can, we just are not allowed to do so based upon the general elk plan and agreements with all stakeholders. In fact, most, if not almost all units in the state are currently over objective. That's why you see spike tags and increased cow elk hunting. They?re trying to bring the overall numbers down to the agreed upon numbers.

Yes, we could in theory change the population objectives, raise them up, cut cow and spike tags for a few years and watch the bull numbers blossom like a rose in the desert. Except the cattlemen will slaughter both the increased elk and those that try to approve such a change before it could ever happen. This is our reality out here. I like your idea, it's just not allowed under the rules. So, we get back to managing hunters and not the elk. And here we are...

And just to state again, I don't agree that our LE units are going down in quality. Elk hunting in Utah is fantastic! Actually, no it's not. It sucks. Everyone should go to Arizona, New Mexico, and Colorado. Avoid Utah elk hunting like the plague! It's terrible here.
 
RE: FUTURE QUALITY OF LE UNITS?

Vanilla,

I understand the problems Utah faces. I understand stakeholders. I do not understand the mindset of quitters saying something can't be done.

Elk started the thread with something he sees as a major problem. Some people agree with him and some don't. Maybe the biology and population dynamics aren't exactly like what he believes and other agree but never the less Utah has a problem because elk, and other stakeholders, believe they do.

Think of it like this. You are a doctor. Elk comes to you and says he has the flu because his nose is running and his head hurts. You are a doctor and you can tell he doesn't have the flu. Nonetheless he has a problem. You have to diagnose it and deal with it.

More than likely and almost certainly you have a collection of problems that together are making it harder and in some instances impossible to get a quality elk tag in Utah. That is a significant problem that more than likely should have been addressed by people long before now.

This system is breaking. You have to deal with it and quit arguing of season dates and tags.
 
RE: FUTURE QUALITY OF LE UNITS?

I love it.. 25 years CAT.

Elk Committee, at least when I was on it raised age class on all units.
Age classes to start were years over what even the plans called for.

Growing more elk. Nope. Ya'll ready got the ranchers complaining that they are getting
wiped out by elk on summer range.

Cows. cows don't sell conservation tags. Just like our bullchit deer plan messing with herd fecundity, and you'll see this with deer too, ya can only pack so many mouths on winter range. kill all the females of a species to cater to wealth tags and max point holders and you end up here. Wait till we have a hard winter, carrying excess bucks and the loss will be generational.

The way the plan works is, we are finally down to age class mandated in the plan. these tags will begin to dry up again.

As long as we have this Ponzi scheme of a point system in Utah, ain't chit gonna change. Continuing to cater to the two smallest demographics in hunting ain't good for wildlife or hunters.




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
RE: FUTURE QUALITY OF LE UNITS?

>What do you think is the
>best cow to bull ratio
>and spike to cow ratio
>as well.
>I just seen a study done
>by Ohio University and they're
>saying 1bull to 20-30 cows
>and spikes 1-20 cows
>
>Thanks for the info
>
>Joe

Somewhere around 1:4 for normal herd management practices. This mix ratio gives the best opportinity, for both the herd and hunters.

On a separate note, the only thing today that makes elk hunting in UT great is the ability to "regularly" shoot very high 300 and very low 400 inch bulls on one unit in the state, and that unit is the San Juan.

Just wait and see what happens next year with the foolish stunt of offering more cow tags because of the "drought" and the winter we will have this year on next years tag count...
 
RE: FUTURE QUALITY OF LE UNITS?

Hi Roadrunner

Thanks for the info

Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 
RE: FUTURE QUALITY OF LE UNITS?

>
>
>Here's a reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally crazy idea.
>Let's make a lot more
>elk.
>


Damn City Boy, you are the smartest man on MM.

Why didn't anyone else think of that?

Now go sell that idea to all the whiney Utah cattle ranchers. Get going boy!
 
RE: FUTURE QUALITY OF LE UNITS?

LAST EDITED ON Sep-27-18 AT 08:07PM (MST)[p]You?re right, tri. If someone comes in and tells the doctor they have a torn ACL, and all x rays and MRIs show that isn't true, but they insist their ACL is torn, the doc just goes ahead with the surgery anyway. You just leave it up to what the patient thinks, not what the test results show. Happens all the time. You have great analogies that are impossible to refute. Such a wise dude.

Nothing to do with quitting. Mostly just respecting previously agreed upon compromises. We can run more elk out there, but then have to pull the cows and sheep off the mountain. I wouldn't oppose it. How are all your ranching buddies going to feel about that?
 
RE: FUTURE QUALITY OF LE UNITS?

Tell them you are going to make it better for them too. And then do it.

You are hung up on consumption. Most people are. That's why y'all are stuck right where you are. It's easier to say it can't be done and keep arguing over who gets to kill the last elk.
 
RE: FUTURE QUALITY OF LE UNITS?

You do realize there is no room for further production right Tri?




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
RE: FUTURE QUALITY OF LE UNITS?

Exactly what I would guess a quitter would say.

Quit holding on tooth and nail to excuses. Tell your kids to take up tennis because that attitude is never going to secure their hunting future.
 
RE: FUTURE QUALITY OF LE UNITS?

>Exactly what I would guess a
>quitter would say.
>
>Quit holding on tooth and nail
>to excuses. Tell your
>kids to take up tennis
>because that attitude is never
>going to secure their hunting
>future.


Tri to the rescue and always the last word, no matter how wrong he is. Tri, can you (and I know you wont answer since you never do) speak Chinese? Honest question.
 
RE: FUTURE QUALITY OF LE UNITS?

Nope I don't speak any of the languages in China. But I could learn if I had to and I wouldn't sit around trying to make excuses that it can't be done.
 
RE: FUTURE QUALITY OF LE UNITS?

You gonna manufacture winter and summer range there Tri?




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
RE: FUTURE QUALITY OF LE UNITS?

But..... Utah is already spending more than all the western states combined.

How?s that worked out over the last 24 years??

Noticing a trend??




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
RE: FUTURE QUALITY OF LE UNITS?

Quit ducking troll. Your philosophy has been tried since 1994. It ain?t working. Now what.




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
RE: FUTURE QUALITY OF LE UNITS?

Hey ww!

I've Got 23 Points Now!

Within a year or two they Won't be Worth the F'N Paper they're Printed on!

I Might PIMP Them Points out for the Right Nominal F'N Fee!

You Interested ww?







I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
RE: FUTURE QUALITY OF LE UNITS?

Sitting on 15 myself.




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
Why can't the DWR split up all the units into smaller units? Make people choose a smaller units and break up the log jam of points out there. Most of the units are plenty big to split up. I don't see many other options to break up the point creep.

Thoughts? What other options are out there?
 
I agree with prior comments that we need to manage for lower success rates. We don't need to maintain the 85-100% success rates for some of these hunts. Sportsmen who draw these tags are entitled to a quality hunt - not a guaranteed kill. Many surrounding states offer quality LE elk hunts with success rates in the 40-70% range. The DWR could explore a number of changes that would result in lower success rates, including changing season dates, shortening the length of seasons, increasing tag numbers, banning specific types of technology, etc. As success rates come down, tag number can be increased.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
>I agree with prior comments that
>we need to manage for
>lower success rates. We
>don't need to maintain the
>85-100% success rates for some
>of these hunts. Sportsmen
>who draw these tags are
>entitled to a quality hunt
>- not a guaranteed kill.
> Many surrounding states offer
>quality LE elk hunts with
>success rates in the 40-70%
>range. The DWR could
>explore a number of changes
>that would result in lower
>success rates, including changing season
>dates, shortening the length of
>seasons, increasing tag numbers, banning
>specific types of technology, etc.
> As success rates come
>down, tag number can be
>increased.
>
>-Hawkeye-
>
>My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:
>
>"It is fair to ask how
>much comes in with the
>five dollar application fees and
>how much went onto the
>ground.? Don Peay of
>SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board
>Meeting.
>
>"There will be a full accounting
>of how the applications fees
>are spent.? Don Peay
>of SFW - 9/26/2006 -
>Monstermuleys.com

Come on Hawkeye!

Increasing Tag Numbers?

GOOD GAWD A MIGHTY!

You're Sayin We need More Pressure on the Deer & Elk Herds?

They've Hunted these Poor Bastards to Death Already!

When LE Elk Hunts first Rolled around they were a fairly Lengthy Hunt!

They're fairly Short now!

And You want them even Shorter?

After Somebody Waits 20+ F'N Years you wanna Give them a 3 Day Hunt or What?

Ban Certain Technology?

Let Me See You Enforce that one!

If You Haven't Noticed?

Success Rates Have Came Down in recent years!

JUDAS!!!











I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Just leave it the way it is, Yes if you are late in the game and wanting a San Juan tag, or a Pahvant tag, or the upper unit then you will realize you either have to wait for ever for the tag, or do your research and learn that you have better odds of drawing on different units, with a different season. Either wait it like veryone else has, or put in for the units for your opportunity hunts. There are plenty of tags that you can draw with few points.
 
The old Utah mentality of hunting elk in a zoo. Heaven forbid the success rates fall below 90 percent with 1.5 days afield. Figure out ways to lower success rates which allows you to increase tag numbers.
 
>The old Utah mentality of hunting
>elk in a zoo. Heaven
>forbid the success rates fall
>below 90 percent with 1.5
>days afield. Figure out ways
>to lower success rates which
>allows you to increase tag
>numbers.

How Many More TARDS Do You F'N Figure We Need in the Field?









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
The Manti gives out like 100 archery tags, that unit could easily handle 500+ archery tags. Its called hunting, not shooting. Its unreasonable to expect to be alone on the mtn. during an elk hunt. My buddy was on the boulder muzzy this year and they saw one other hunter the entire hunt. Thats ridiculous.
 
>The Manti gives out like 100
>archery tags, that unit could
>easily handle 500+ archery tags.
>Its called hunting, not shooting.
>Its unreasonable to expect to
>be alone on the mtn.
>during an elk hunt. My
>buddy was on the boulder
>muzzy this year and they
>saw one other hunter the
>entire hunt. Thats ridiculous.

Alone on the F'N Mountain!

Now that's Funny!

So Your Buddy didn't Like Not Having Elbow to AsssHole Action on His LE Hunt huh?









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Heaven forbid ya gotta work for it!

The Manti consists of 2,500 square MILES!!! 500 guys cant share 2500 square miles?

One thing he was sad about is that he will never hunt LE elk in the next two + decades.

Its called hunting for a reason, not shooting. It should be hard and require some effort. Versus being alone on the mountain shooting a love sick bull with your rifle from 500 yards away.

Toughen up buttercup.
 
>Heaven forbid ya gotta work for
>it!
>
>The Manti consists of 2,500 square
>MILES!!! 500 guys cant share
>2500 square miles?
>
>One thing he was sad about
>is that he will never
>hunt LE elk in the
>next two + decades.
>
>Its called hunting for a reason,
>not shooting. It should be
>hard and require some effort.
>Versus being alone on the
>mountain shooting a love sick
>bull with your rifle from
>500 yards away.
>
>Toughen up buttercup.

So?

You Don't get around/Out very often or you'd know the SmokePolers have been getting in on the Rut the last several Warmer Falls!

Just like about 95% of everybody-else!

You Blame One Weapon!

UN-F'N-REAL!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Bessy-

Set the emotion aside for a minute and engage in a rational discussion. You have been applying for 20+ years and waiting patiently for a quality LE elk hunt. We get it. I hope you draw a tag in the near future, kill a monster, and have the hunt of a lifetime.

Not stop thinking about yourself and think about our children and grandchildren. I have a 7 year old son who is crazy about hunting. Let's say that he starts applying for a LE elk hunt five years from now when he is 12, how long will it take him to draw a tag? Will he ever get a chance to hunt? Is our current system sustainable moving forward?

I am not looking to screw the rifle hunters or those who have been applying for two decades for a specific tag. However, we simply have to start considering changes to our broken system, and I believe that one obvious place to start is to move the rifle hunt out of the peak of the rut. Will that one change solve all of our problems. No, but it is a start and we need to consider other changes that will have the overall impact of lowering success rates and moving more sportsmen through the system.

Since you are against increasing tags or changing the season dates, what changes would you support that would give more sportsmen a chance at a LE elk hunt?

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
Looks like Elkass wants his cake, pie and ice cream too. It looks by his comment that he should be the only person on the unit when he draws. He should only have to hunt 1 day (morning if he can get out of bed after a long night of beers). Sounds like he wants to whistle once on his hoochie momma and have elk run to him next to the pick up so he can shoot it with his $5000 rifle with his $2500 scope on it that is sighted out to 1 mile, to shoot him at 27 yards.

Heaven forbid you have to hunt.
 
PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WHY POINT SYSTEM'S NEED TO GO.






"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
Hawkeye, Yes my kids who only have 2 and 3 points will draw a tag in the next 2 years to hunt bull elk on a LE unit. Its not the san juan, its not the pahvant, but they will draw. I am just waiting until they are both old enough to drive.
 
If we want to give more elk tags let have a bigger elk herd. The san juan unit is only managed for 1000 elk, this unit is huge, lots of summer and winter range, we can house more elk on this unit, it will easily handle 2000 head of elk. If we poored in all the conservation money and did some more projects in this area to help will range, doubling the elk herd would be a great move.
 
I am in favor of increasing our herds and objective numbers. What is the best way to make that happen? It seems like we are already at war with the cattlemen. I believe that our public lands can carry more elk and deer but we have to address the political fall out from the ranchers.

I don't believe that more conservation projects and conservation tags is the answer. Utah has been spending more money on conservation projects than all of the western states combined. What has that done for our elk herds and objective numbers? i would fully support changes that would lead to increased herds but at some point we have to look at how best to move folks through the system given our current herd numbers.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
Im not in favor of more conservation tags either, Im just saying use more of the money in an area that can produce more, we have millions of acres of ground in san juan that can be used as habitat, but isn't because of all the juniper trees, more projects in this area would help and we could push for more wildlife. in reality San Juan could have 3000 head of elk, given we did lots of habitat work. Put the money where we could help produce more.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-03-18 AT 09:57AM (MST)[p]I agree with WW. Perhaps, the biggest obstacle we have with making changes and improving our current system is sportsmen who have invested many years and significant amounts of money in bonus points. Not all but some of these folks feel entitled to a certain type of hunt or a certain quality of animal. I understand the frustration. I have been applying and buying points for the better part of two decades in several western states. At some point, however, we have to do what is best for the animals and the vast majority of sportsmen. We have to get past the sentiment of seeking to postpone positive changes "until after I draw my tag."

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
>If we want to give more
>elk tags let have a
>bigger elk herd. The
>san juan unit is only
>managed for 1000 elk,
>this unit is huge, lots
>of summer and winter range,
>we can house more elk
>on this unit, it will
>easily handle 2000 head of
>elk. If we poored
>in all the conservation money
>and did some more projects
>in this area to help
>will range, doubling the elk
>herd would be a great
>move.


The SJ is managed for 1000 head of elk and 5000 head of cattle.

The sooner you realize that the whiney cattlemen of Utah are the ones responsible for your dwindling elk herds the better off you'll be.

You can whine like Bessy blaming it all on the DWR and piss poor management but it all comes down to Elk vs. Cattle. Cattle wins every time.
 

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